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It's 2020. Why is Guard still taking up two bar slots?
TheGreatBlackBear
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Some common uses of Guard are:
1) Guarding a new main tank in the last boss fight of Vet Hel Ra (usually done by the off tank)
2) Guarding the main tank in Vet Sunspire Hardmode while he holds the fire atros underneath Yolnahkriin (usually done by a healer)
3) Guarding the main tank during the last fight against Nahviintaas in Vet Sunspire (usually done by a healer)
I'm sure there are others but that's all that comes to mind atm.
My issue with the skill guard is that it costs around 3.5k stamina, requires that you to be able to target a specific person, you then are committed to leashing yourself to that person and staying with them and then to top it off the guard does not persist when you swap bars unless you have it slotted on that bar too. I suggest that we change how the skill works or at least how one of the morphs work. As it stands one of the morph gives minor vitality (Mystic Guard) and another gives minor force (Stalwart Guard) to the two people involved.The thing is, 9 times out of 10 it's one support player guarding another support player. Increased critical damage is irrelevant here.
What I would suggest is that Stalwart Guard be changed to allow some more movement or flexibility. So the new Stalwart Guard would be able to cast on a person but the damage mitigation would be reduced to something like 20% (the power budget spreadsheet people can figure it out) it would last for a set duration (again the spreadsheet people can decide on how long) and then would need to be recast afterwards if needed again. It would not give minor force or vitality or anything just mitigation. The damage take will still be transferred to the caster of guard. Only one person could be guarded at a give time. There should be some sacrifice for the mobility and bar slot you'd gain from picking this morph.
This shouldn't be too disruptive because dps already have so may sources of minor force like barbed trap, channeled acceleration, grabbing a synergy from a healer running twilight. Plus there are one or two sets that have it as the 5pc bonus. What are your thoughts?
1) Guarding a new main tank in the last boss fight of Vet Hel Ra (usually done by the off tank)
2) Guarding the main tank in Vet Sunspire Hardmode while he holds the fire atros underneath Yolnahkriin (usually done by a healer)
3) Guarding the main tank during the last fight against Nahviintaas in Vet Sunspire (usually done by a healer)
I'm sure there are others but that's all that comes to mind atm.
My issue with the skill guard is that it costs around 3.5k stamina, requires that you to be able to target a specific person, you then are committed to leashing yourself to that person and staying with them and then to top it off the guard does not persist when you swap bars unless you have it slotted on that bar too. I suggest that we change how the skill works or at least how one of the morphs work. As it stands one of the morph gives minor vitality (Mystic Guard) and another gives minor force (Stalwart Guard) to the two people involved.The thing is, 9 times out of 10 it's one support player guarding another support player. Increased critical damage is irrelevant here.
What I would suggest is that Stalwart Guard be changed to allow some more movement or flexibility. So the new Stalwart Guard would be able to cast on a person but the damage mitigation would be reduced to something like 20% (the power budget spreadsheet people can figure it out) it would last for a set duration (again the spreadsheet people can decide on how long) and then would need to be recast afterwards if needed again. It would not give minor force or vitality or anything just mitigation. The damage take will still be transferred to the caster of guard. Only one person could be guarded at a give time. There should be some sacrifice for the mobility and bar slot you'd gain from picking this morph.
This shouldn't be too disruptive because dps already have so may sources of minor force like barbed trap, channeled acceleration, grabbing a synergy from a healer running twilight. Plus there are one or two sets that have it as the 5pc bonus. What are your thoughts?
7
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daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree. Pets and passive buffs should work regardless of which bar the skill is siting on. Sorc pet builds are ming-numbingly boring due to loss of diversity with 2, 4 or 6 out of 10 slots taken up by 1 or 2 pets and inner light/bound aegis for the passive buffs. Warden bear ulti means that's the only ulti you're bound to use, as it needs to be double-barred.
With only 10 skill slots and 2 ultimates available without changing your loadout, no skills should need to be double barred, ever, even if this means balancing affected skills. This seems so obvious to me, but it reminds me of the years it took for ZOS to acknowledge the painfully obvious mistake of treating 2-handed weapons as only one piece for the purpose of item sets.13 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What does the year have anything to do with this? It seems very irrelevant.
I have tanked vet Hel Ra without a guard on the last boss. Just call out when the boss is doing rapid strikes (whatever his attack is called) so the healers know to burst heal. That is easy. I only run with two tanks on HM.
Regardless, Zos likely sees it as the skill needs to be on the active bar for it to work. There is no skill in the game that can be continuously active if it is not on the action bar.Edited by idk on March 5, 2020 5:11PM4 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What does the year have anything to do with this? It seems very irrelevant.
Stating the year before asking a question is quite common as a way to draw attention to the fact that something should have changed some time before. The idea is that the devs have had 6 years to realize that the disadvantages of double barring outweigh the advantages.
Why do you take issue with it?Edited by daemonios on March 5, 2020 5:11PM14 -
luizpaulom17✭✭✭I would say same thing for Warden bear... it makes the class really weak for trash fights, but Zos dont care lol...Edited by luizpaulom17 on March 5, 2020 5:11PM2
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TheGreatBlackBear✭✭✭✭✭
✭What does the year have anything to do with this? It seems very irrelevant.
I have tanked vet Hel Ra without a guard on the last boss. Just call out when the boss is doing rapid strikes (whatever his attack is called) so the healers know to burst heal. That is easy. I only run with two tanks on HM.
Regardless, Zos likely sees it as the skill needs to be on the active bar for it to work. There is no skill in the game that can be continuously active if it is not on the action bar.
Eh? What? Does frost cloak stop giving mitigation if you swap off of its active bar? Does rapid regen stop ticking after leaving your resto bar? Does igneous shield dissipate after your swap bars?
Edited by TheGreatBlackBear on March 5, 2020 5:17PM9 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What does the year have anything to do with this? It seems very irrelevant.
Stating the year before asking a question is quite common as a way to draw attention to the fact that something should have changed some time before. The idea is that the devs have had 6 years to realize that the disadvantages of double barring outweigh the advantages.
Why do you take issue with it?
I think you mean a way to draw attention to the OP's opinion. There is no fact in that as it is merely an opinion. Funny how you edited out the rest of my post that explained the logic behind the current design. I guess it was inconvenient to your opinion.
And I am just pointing out the fact that the year is irrelevant. Now that part is a fact.3 -
xxthir13enxx✭✭✭✭✭
✭It’s 2020 why do I have to play Video Games!?
VideoGames should play Themselves!!!3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »What does the year have anything to do with this? It seems very irrelevant.
I have tanked vet Hel Ra without a guard on the last boss. Just call out when the boss is doing rapid strikes (whatever his attack is called) so the healers know to burst heal. That is easy. I only run with two tanks on HM.
Regardless, Zos likely sees it as the skill needs to be on the active bar for it to work. There is no skill in the game that can be continuously active if it is not on the action bar.
Eh? What? Does frost cloak stop giving mitigation if you swap off of its active bar? Does rapid regen stop ticking after leaving your resto bar? Does igneous shield dissipate after your swap bars?
Very bad examples. That much should have been obvious.
Frost cloak has a specific duration when activated. After the duration ends it has to be activated again. Same thing for each and every example you provided.
Guard is perpetual so my comments hold up solid to your example.3 -
TheGreatBlackBear✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »What does the year have anything to do with this? It seems very irrelevant.
I have tanked vet Hel Ra without a guard on the last boss. Just call out when the boss is doing rapid strikes (whatever his attack is called) so the healers know to burst heal. That is easy. I only run with two tanks on HM.
Regardless, Zos likely sees it as the skill needs to be on the active bar for it to work. There is no skill in the game that can be continuously active if it is not on the action bar.
Eh? What? Does frost cloak stop giving mitigation if you swap off of its active bar? Does rapid regen stop ticking after leaving your resto bar? Does igneous shield dissipate after your swap bars?
Very bad examples. That much should have been obvious.
Frost cloak has a specific duration when activated. After the duration ends it has to be activated again. Same thing for each and every example you provided.
Guard is perpetual so my comments hold up solid to your example.
Actually no. If you had bothered to read you would have seen that I proposed changing guard to something that wasn't perpetual to justify not needing it on both bars. But hey what is comprehension?Edited by TheGreatBlackBear on March 5, 2020 5:26PM7 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What does the year have anything to do with this? It seems very irrelevant.
Stating the year before asking a question is quite common as a way to draw attention to the fact that something should have changed some time before. The idea is that the devs have had 6 years to realize that the disadvantages of double barring outweigh the advantages.
Why do you take issue with it?
I think you mean a way to draw attention to the OP's opinion. There is no fact in that as it is merely an opinion. Funny how you edited out the rest of my post that explained the logic behind the current design. I guess it was inconvenient to your opinion.
And I am just pointing out the fact that the year is irrelevant. Now that part is a fact.
I didn't edit out your post. I could have sworn when I saw it and replied to it, the first sentence was all there was to it. Did you edit it immediately after posting? I think if you do so fairly quickly it won't show as edited. If that's not the case and I bungled it up, apologies. Though I fail to see what the first and second parts of your post have to do with one another, and why I should have to reply to all of it when I was addressing your nitpicking with the thread's title.
I still think you're reading the title way too literally. As I said, it is very common to state the year before asking why something is (still) the way it is. It is a figure of speech. Most humans use them. But if you really want to pick THAT fight, go right ahead. Arguing semantics is so much more fun than addressing actual issues, right?8 -
luizpaulom17✭✭✭Its 2020 and ESO still have the same skyrim bugs like walking over your horse... lol
Pretty sure that weapon on your feet is still a feature4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What does the year have anything to do with this? It seems very irrelevant.
Stating the year before asking a question is quite common as a way to draw attention to the fact that something should have changed some time before. The idea is that the devs have had 6 years to realize that the disadvantages of double barring outweigh the advantages.
Why do you take issue with it?
I think you mean a way to draw attention to the OP's opinion. There is no fact in that as it is merely an opinion. Funny how you edited out the rest of my post that explained the logic behind the current design. I guess it was inconvenient to your opinion.
And I am just pointing out the fact that the year is irrelevant. Now that part is a fact.
I didn't edit out your post. I could have sworn when I saw it and replied to it, the first sentence was all there was to it. Did you edit it immediately after posting? I think if you do so fairly quickly it won't show as edited. If that's not the case and I bungled it up, apologies. Though I fail to see what the first and second parts of your post have to do with one another, and why I should have to reply to all of it when I was addressing your nitpicking with the thread's title.
I still think you're reading the title way too literally. As I said, it is very common to state the year before asking why something is (still) the way it is. It is a figure of speech. Most humans use them. But if you really want to pick THAT fight, go right ahead. Arguing semantics is so much more fun than addressing actual issues, right?
Sorry then, must have added to it after you quoted.
As others have pointed out, it is just for dramatic reasons. I do like the humor some of them have added concerning the title. LOL1 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What does the year have anything to do with this? It seems very irrelevant.
Stating the year before asking a question is quite common as a way to draw attention to the fact that something should have changed some time before. The idea is that the devs have had 6 years to realize that the disadvantages of double barring outweigh the advantages.
Why do you take issue with it?
I think you mean a way to draw attention to the OP's opinion. There is no fact in that as it is merely an opinion. Funny how you edited out the rest of my post that explained the logic behind the current design. I guess it was inconvenient to your opinion.
And I am just pointing out the fact that the year is irrelevant. Now that part is a fact.
I didn't edit out your post. I could have sworn when I saw it and replied to it, the first sentence was all there was to it. Did you edit it immediately after posting? I think if you do so fairly quickly it won't show as edited. If that's not the case and I bungled it up, apologies. Though I fail to see what the first and second parts of your post have to do with one another, and why I should have to reply to all of it when I was addressing your nitpicking with the thread's title.
I still think you're reading the title way too literally. As I said, it is very common to state the year before asking why something is (still) the way it is. It is a figure of speech. Most humans use them. But if you really want to pick THAT fight, go right ahead. Arguing semantics is so much more fun than addressing actual issues, right?
[snip]
Op, I like your idea. If it works like rapid regen. I could have sworn there was an old nightblade skill that absorbed damage from someone else once cast and had a certain duration but maybe that was in my dreams.
[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]Edited by ZOS_RogerJ on March 5, 2020 7:04PM#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom1 -
xWarbrain✭✭✭✭✭The only problem with your suggestion is that it's another unfortunate PvP vs. PvE balance issue. Guard is abused in BGs. Being able to slot another healing skill on top of using guard will make it worse.
I don't think needing to recast the ability + loss of Minor Force would offset the extra healing made available by that extra ability slot you'd gain.
Maybe offsetting it by adding "You take 5% (or whatever) extra damage from Players while the ability is active" to the new morph? Or x% less to Healing Received?
Less Healing Received would hurt the PvE player though. But something to keep the PvP use of Guard from getting stronger.
Side note - If you use Guard in BGs, you're a bad person. (Unless you're guarding me, in which case carry on.)XB1 NA
Your nerf suggestion is dumb. Learn to counter other players instead of having the game rebuilt to your ability level.2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »What does the year have anything to do with this? It seems very irrelevant.
I have tanked vet Hel Ra without a guard on the last boss. Just call out when the boss is doing rapid strikes (whatever his attack is called) so the healers know to burst heal. That is easy. I only run with two tanks on HM.
Regardless, Zos likely sees it as the skill needs to be on the active bar for it to work. There is no skill in the game that can be continuously active if it is not on the action bar.
Eh? What? Does frost cloak stop giving mitigation if you swap off of its active bar? Does rapid regen stop ticking after leaving your resto bar? Does igneous shield dissipate after your swap bars?
Very bad examples. That much should have been obvious.
Frost cloak has a specific duration when activated. After the duration ends it has to be activated again. Same thing for each and every example you provided.
Guard is perpetual so my comments hold up solid to your example.
Actually no. If you had bothered to read you would have seen that I proposed changing guard to something that wasn't perpetual to justify not needing it on both bars. But hey what is comprehension?
Your idea is still a poor idea. It would require targetting whoever needs to be guarded when the duration ends. Not a very good design. With that in mind, the current design is superior.
You are also wrong with my comprehension. I just did not bother reading the OP as I did not find it worthy. But glad to help you think this through as I have.1 -
TheGreatBlackBear✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »What does the year have anything to do with this? It seems very irrelevant.
I have tanked vet Hel Ra without a guard on the last boss. Just call out when the boss is doing rapid strikes (whatever his attack is called) so the healers know to burst heal. That is easy. I only run with two tanks on HM.
Regardless, Zos likely sees it as the skill needs to be on the active bar for it to work. There is no skill in the game that can be continuously active if it is not on the action bar.
Eh? What? Does frost cloak stop giving mitigation if you swap off of its active bar? Does rapid regen stop ticking after leaving your resto bar? Does igneous shield dissipate after your swap bars?
Very bad examples. That much should have been obvious.
Frost cloak has a specific duration when activated. After the duration ends it has to be activated again. Same thing for each and every example you provided.
Guard is perpetual so my comments hold up solid to your example.
Actually no. If you had bothered to read you would have seen that I proposed changing guard to something that wasn't perpetual to justify not needing it on both bars. But hey what is comprehension?
Your idea is still a poor idea. It would require targetting whoever needs to be guarded when the duration ends. Not a very good design. With that in mind, the current design is superior.
You are also wrong with my comprehension. I just did not bother reading the OP as I did not find it worthy. But glad to help you think this through as I have.
Riiiight. Most fights where guard is needed have short burst periods of intense damage and the mitigation is not needed for the entire fight. So a temporary guard could be preferred if it freed up another slot. And if there is a fight where from start to finish there is so much damage, so much danger then simply go with the permanent morph that's all.0 -
Veinblood1965✭✭✭✭✭
✭What does the year have anything to do with this? It seems very irrelevant.
Stating the year before asking a question is quite common as a way to draw attention to the fact that something should have changed some time before. The idea is that the devs have had 6 years to realize that the disadvantages of double barring outweigh the advantages.
Why do you take issue with it?
I think you mean a way to draw attention to the OP's opinion. There is no fact in that as it is merely an opinion. Funny how you edited out the rest of my post that explained the logic behind the current design. I guess it was inconvenient to your opinion.
And I am just pointing out the fact that the year is irrelevant. Now that part is a fact.
Then suddenly the post went off the rails and devolved into a grammar fight.1 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭While I agree that it's inconvenient, I don't agree with single barring it, as much as that would make my life easier. It's a powerful skill, and powerful skills need to have a drawback to keep them from being braindead or giving players too much of an advantage. It's balance at work. I have to think more carefully about my bar layout when I'm guard healing tank, and make sure to watch my stam levels carefully. I know that sounds like a hassle, but it actually makes things more challenging and more fun.PC/Xbox NA
Unchained | Unstoppable | Mindmender | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planes Breaker | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Tick-tock Tormentor | Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Stormproof | Grand Overlord | Grand Mastercrafter | Master Grappler | Tamriel Hero3 -
Donny_Vito✭✭✭✭✭
✭This has turned into a two or three man debate.
Anyways, I like the idea of giving guard a dedicated timer so that you can work it into one bar instead of both...similar to Necros Siphon skills. Pop it, and then you will have to recast it when the timer has run out if you haven't already.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »What does the year have anything to do with this? It seems very irrelevant.
I have tanked vet Hel Ra without a guard on the last boss. Just call out when the boss is doing rapid strikes (whatever his attack is called) so the healers know to burst heal. That is easy. I only run with two tanks on HM.
Regardless, Zos likely sees it as the skill needs to be on the active bar for it to work. There is no skill in the game that can be continuously active if it is not on the action bar.
Eh? What? Does frost cloak stop giving mitigation if you swap off of its active bar? Does rapid regen stop ticking after leaving your resto bar? Does igneous shield dissipate after your swap bars?
Very bad examples. That much should have been obvious.
Frost cloak has a specific duration when activated. After the duration ends it has to be activated again. Same thing for each and every example you provided.
Guard is perpetual so my comments hold up solid to your example.
Actually no. If you had bothered to read you would have seen that I proposed changing guard to something that wasn't perpetual to justify not needing it on both bars. But hey what is comprehension?
Your idea is still a poor idea. It would require targetting whoever needs to be guarded when the duration ends. Not a very good design. With that in mind, the current design is superior.
You are also wrong with my comprehension. I just did not bother reading the OP as I did not find it worthy. But glad to help you think this through as I have.
Riiiight. Most fights where guard is needed have short burst periods of intense damage and the mitigation is not needed for the entire fight. So a temporary guard could be preferred if it freed up another slot. And if there is a fight where from start to finish there is so much damage, so much danger then simply go with the permanent morph that's all.
If your healer does not know when to burst heal the tank on the last boss in Hel Ra what makes you think the off-tank would figure out the timing any better. Heck, the healer should be able to see the visual queue in time. Further, the frequency of The Warrior's heavy attacks on the tank come so often the guard would have to be applied as soon as it comes off.
What happens in vSS when the healer has to do some heavy healing or several players die at the time when they need to apply guard? Oh, yea, tank dies.
The idea seems to be more of an inconvenience than the current design as it requires finding a clear shot to teh target to apply guard and ceasing all other actions during those few seconds. The clumsiness of using this skill in combat is probably why Zos opted for the permanent one.Edited by idk on March 5, 2020 6:13PM1 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭What does the year have anything to do with this? It seems very irrelevant.
Stating the year before asking a question is quite common as a way to draw attention to the fact that something should have changed some time before. The idea is that the devs have had 6 years to realize that the disadvantages of double barring outweigh the advantages.
Why do you take issue with it?
I think you mean a way to draw attention to the OP's opinion. There is no fact in that as it is merely an opinion. Funny how you edited out the rest of my post that explained the logic behind the current design. I guess it was inconvenient to your opinion.
And I am just pointing out the fact that the year is irrelevant. Now that part is a fact.
I didn't edit out your post. I could have sworn when I saw it and replied to it, the first sentence was all there was to it. Did you edit it immediately after posting? I think if you do so fairly quickly it won't show as edited. If that's not the case and I bungled it up, apologies. Though I fail to see what the first and second parts of your post have to do with one another, and why I should have to reply to all of it when I was addressing your nitpicking with the thread's title.
I still think you're reading the title way too literally. As I said, it is very common to state the year before asking why something is (still) the way it is. It is a figure of speech. Most humans use them. But if you really want to pick THAT fight, go right ahead. Arguing semantics is so much more fun than addressing actual issues, right?
It is common to state the year before asking a question in regards to something that is outdated or regressive. In this game there are many abilities that require both bars for it to function, so there is nothing about the limitation that is exclusive to Guard. You might as well say something like, "When in Rome". That is a figure of speech. People often say it. Is it applicable? No, obviously not.
If the point was proposing a change to the ability, the year is completely irrelevant.Tombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hold on, don’t take away the Minor Force from Guard. That is the only way to receive the Minor Force buff from another player, and without using a bar slot for Trap or Accel (I don’t count Twilight Remedy because it is impossible to get good uptimes).
I think it would be fine for Guard to work from a single bar slot. The concept of a toggle that persists after bar swapping is not new, just look at Overload or Mend Wounds.Edited by WrathOfInnos on March 5, 2020 6:19PM1 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This sounds like a great way to kill a morph.
You even mention how problematic it is to properly target your teammate if guard happens to fall off. Why do you think that having to re-cast the skill every 30-40 seconds is a good idea?0 -
dazee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭More importantly where is my flying toaster car which also does my laundry for me and serves me coffee?Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.1 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »@p00tx Traitor. I'm not inviting you to another VCR or VSS ever again.
New phone. Who dis?PC/Xbox NA
Unchained | Unstoppable | Mindmender | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planes Breaker | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Tick-tock Tormentor | Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Stormproof | Grand Overlord | Grand Mastercrafter | Master Grappler | Tamriel Hero1