delibaretly helping a enemy alliance in cyrodill shoould beb a reportable offense.

sirston

VaranisArano wrote: »

sirston wrote: »

just because I want to make more AP by having a group im in with 2 scrolls and not turning them in is not going against the faction, Im an imperial EP but end of the day AP is AP and I don't care who I tread on even if its my own faction.

Your two statements seem to contradict each other - you make it clear that you know that not parking those scrolls in a home keep or temple is detrimental to your faction, you just don't care who you tread on.

Not that I expect to convince someone who explicitly doesn't care, but yeah, its detrimental.

If you/your group put in all the effort to get the scroll: capturing the keep, or in the case of enemy home scrolls, capturing two keeps, breaking into the gate, and grabbing the scroll from the temple, fine. I'm not going to complain if you go farm AP with a scroll you put all the effort into getting. (In my experience, that's fairly rare outside of a few PVP guilds who will actually capture scrolls completely on their own for farming purposes.)

If you instead piggy-backed off the effort of the other PVP guilds, groups, and players in your faction in order to grab the scroll, then yeah, its pretty selfish to take advantage of that group effort to go AP farm with no intent of parking that scroll so everyone else can get AP from the quest and benefit from the faction score. After all, everyone who's not in your farming group doesn't get any of that AP from the scroll they worked to get access to, since most scroll captures are a group effort from the faction.

Its detrimental to the campaign score - each scroll is worth 10 points.

Its also detrimental to what your faction can accomplish in the immediate future - which scrolls your faction has determines which enemy scrolls they can claim or which home scrolls they don't have to guard as heavily. Trolling or farming around with a home scroll in particular limits your alliance's options for scroll takes badly.

Now, you made it clear that you don't care. I can't make you care. But let's not deny that anytime players piggyback off the effort of their faction to get a scroll and then go troll or AP farm with it, they absolutely are working against their faction.

generally speaking if your playing main campaign of grey host? and im EP and we are winning by 6k already with a lead the people can chill, we farming. Also if im seiging a keep to get those scrolls and a PVP guild rolls up and wants to take the scroll. sorry boss man but I was there first for the scroll. Now im not going to grab the scroll and hand it off to the other faction's because I want to, Im doing that to reset the timer to farm them.

VaranisArano

ellahellabella wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

sirston wrote: »

just because I want to make more AP by having a group im in with 2 scrolls and not turning them in is not going against the faction, Im an imperial EP but end of the day AP is AP and I don't care who I tread on even if its my own faction.

Your two statements seem to contradict each other - you make it clear that you know that not parking those scrolls in a home keep or temple is detrimental to your faction, you just don't care who you tread on.

Not that I expect to convince someone who explicitly doesn't care, but yeah, its detrimental.

If you/your group put in all the effort to get the scroll: capturing the keep, or in the case of enemy home scrolls, capturing two keeps, breaking into the gate, and grabbing the scroll from the temple, fine. I'm not going to complain if you go farm AP with a scroll you put all the effort into getting. (In my experience, that's fairly rare outside of a few PVP guilds who will actually capture scrolls completely on their own for farming purposes.)

If you instead piggy-backed off the effort of the other PVP guilds, groups, and players in your faction in order to grab the scroll, then yeah, its pretty selfish to take advantage of that group effort to go AP farm with no intent of parking that scroll so everyone else can get AP from the quest and benefit from the faction score. After all, everyone who's not in your farming group doesn't get any of that AP from the scroll they worked to get access to, since most scroll captures are a group effort from the faction.

Its detrimental to the campaign score - each scroll is worth 10 points.

Its also detrimental to what your faction can accomplish in the immediate future - which scrolls your faction has determines which enemy scrolls they can claim or which home scrolls they don't have to guard as heavily. Trolling or farming around with a home scroll in particular limits your alliance's options for scroll takes badly.

Now, you made it clear that you don't care. I can't make you care. But let's not deny that anytime players piggyback off the effort of their faction to get a scroll and then go troll or AP farm with it, they absolutely are working against their faction.

If it's a home scroll, prolly dock it. Enemy scroll, they grabbed it, their rules. Seen plenty of trolls in my time playing. I just forget it and move on. People treat this game like their lives depend on it.
Yolers gonna Yolo. Let them Yolo. They're clearly having more fun than you.

*edit* Heck, one of the biggest scroll trolls I know was an incredible player. He was the 2nd nightblade in NA to get GO. He just loved trolling scrolls.

Sounds like we agree on docking the home scrolls and "you put in all the effort to grab it, you can go have fun with it if you want".

We might differ in our opinions of the players who piggyback on the efforts of others only to grab the scroll and run off.

I do find it a little condescending to tell me I'm taking things too seriously when I'm pointing out obvious gameplay problems that scroll trolling can cause for a faction.
I mean, missing out on 10 points per hour for a scroll, possibly not being able to capture certain scrolls, making it harder to defend one of the home scrolls or - one I forgot - missing out to the buffs for holding scrolls are certainly detrimental to a faction. Whether or not I'm having more or less fun than someone else is pretty irrelevant to talking about the gameplay problems that scroll trolling creates for a faction as a whole.

Personally, I like my fun in Cyrodiil to be the type that cooperates with other players on my faction for mutual benefit, but I do realize that not every player wants to play that way. Even on community sports teams we get players who prefer to do their own thing no matter what might be better for the team, so why would it be any different with factions in Cyrodiil?

VaranisArano

sirston wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

sirston wrote: »

just because I want to make more AP by having a group im in with 2 scrolls and not turning them in is not going against the faction, Im an imperial EP but end of the day AP is AP and I don't care who I tread on even if its my own faction.

Your two statements seem to contradict each other - you make it clear that you know that not parking those scrolls in a home keep or temple is detrimental to your faction, you just don't care who you tread on.

Not that I expect to convince someone who explicitly doesn't care, but yeah, its detrimental.

If you/your group put in all the effort to get the scroll: capturing the keep, or in the case of enemy home scrolls, capturing two keeps, breaking into the gate, and grabbing the scroll from the temple, fine. I'm not going to complain if you go farm AP with a scroll you put all the effort into getting. (In my experience, that's fairly rare outside of a few PVP guilds who will actually capture scrolls completely on their own for farming purposes.)

If you instead piggy-backed off the effort of the other PVP guilds, groups, and players in your faction in order to grab the scroll, then yeah, its pretty selfish to take advantage of that group effort to go AP farm with no intent of parking that scroll so everyone else can get AP from the quest and benefit from the faction score. After all, everyone who's not in your farming group doesn't get any of that AP from the scroll they worked to get access to, since most scroll captures are a group effort from the faction.

Its detrimental to the campaign score - each scroll is worth 10 points.

Its also detrimental to what your faction can accomplish in the immediate future - which scrolls your faction has determines which enemy scrolls they can claim or which home scrolls they don't have to guard as heavily. Trolling or farming around with a home scroll in particular limits your alliance's options for scroll takes badly.

Now, you made it clear that you don't care. I can't make you care. But let's not deny that anytime players piggyback off the effort of their faction to get a scroll and then go troll or AP farm with it, they absolutely are working against their faction.

generally speaking if your playing main campaign of grey host? and im EP and we are winning by 6k already with a lead the people can chill, we farming. Also if im seiging a keep to get those scrolls and a PVP guild rolls up and wants to take the scroll. sorry boss man but I was there first for the scroll. Now im not going to grab the scroll and hand it off to the other faction's because I want to, Im doing that to reset the timer to farm them.

Like I said, if you put in the effort to grab the scroll, I'm not going to complain much if you go farm with it. At least for me, "my guild was here first and didn't need the extra assistance" falls under that category. I usually see that sort of behavior from guilds or ball groups who actually do put in the effort to grab the scroll.

It does still impacts the faction in terms of lost score, lost buffs, and quest AP - and it would be really annoying if it were a home scroll because that blocks two other scroll captures. As you say, the campaign circumstances might be such that the problems caused are minimal in the long run, but they are still present.

ellahellabella

sirston wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

sirston wrote: »

just because I want to make more AP by having a group im in with 2 scrolls and not turning them in is not going against the faction, Im an imperial EP but end of the day AP is AP and I don't care who I tread on even if its my own faction.

Your two statements seem to contradict each other - you make it clear that you know that not parking those scrolls in a home keep or temple is detrimental to your faction, you just don't care who you tread on.

Not that I expect to convince someone who explicitly doesn't care, but yeah, its detrimental.

If you/your group put in all the effort to get the scroll: capturing the keep, or in the case of enemy home scrolls, capturing two keeps, breaking into the gate, and grabbing the scroll from the temple, fine. I'm not going to complain if you go farm AP with a scroll you put all the effort into getting. (In my experience, that's fairly rare outside of a few PVP guilds who will actually capture scrolls completely on their own for farming purposes.)

If you instead piggy-backed off the effort of the other PVP guilds, groups, and players in your faction in order to grab the scroll, then yeah, its pretty selfish to take advantage of that group effort to go AP farm with no intent of parking that scroll so everyone else can get AP from the quest and benefit from the faction score. After all, everyone who's not in your farming group doesn't get any of that AP from the scroll they worked to get access to, since most scroll captures are a group effort from the faction.

Its detrimental to the campaign score - each scroll is worth 10 points.

Its also detrimental to what your faction can accomplish in the immediate future - which scrolls your faction has determines which enemy scrolls they can claim or which home scrolls they don't have to guard as heavily. Trolling or farming around with a home scroll in particular limits your alliance's options for scroll takes badly.

Now, you made it clear that you don't care. I can't make you care. But let's not deny that anytime players piggyback off the effort of their faction to get a scroll and then go troll or AP farm with it, they absolutely are working against their faction.

generally speaking if your playing main campaign of grey host? and im EP and we are winning by 6k already with a lead the people can chill, we farming. Also if im seiging a keep to get those scrolls and a PVP guild rolls up and wants to take the scroll. sorry boss man but I was there first for the scroll. Now im not going to grab the scroll and hand it off to the other faction's because I want to, Im doing that to reset the timer to farm them.

Remember the days of Vivec when campaigns WERE competitive? Then the lock came in to make them.... competitive?
Next thing the main campaign is one faction winning by a landslide. GG

Nothing competitive about locks now. EP wins. Again and again and again.

Guess i should play another faction to help here OH WAIT.

sirston

ellahellabella wrote: »

sirston wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

sirston wrote: »

just because I want to make more AP by having a group im in with 2 scrolls and not turning them in is not going against the faction, Im an imperial EP but end of the day AP is AP and I don't care who I tread on even if its my own faction.

Your two statements seem to contradict each other - you make it clear that you know that not parking those scrolls in a home keep or temple is detrimental to your faction, you just don't care who you tread on.

Not that I expect to convince someone who explicitly doesn't care, but yeah, its detrimental.

If you/your group put in all the effort to get the scroll: capturing the keep, or in the case of enemy home scrolls, capturing two keeps, breaking into the gate, and grabbing the scroll from the temple, fine. I'm not going to complain if you go farm AP with a scroll you put all the effort into getting. (In my experience, that's fairly rare outside of a few PVP guilds who will actually capture scrolls completely on their own for farming purposes.)

If you instead piggy-backed off the effort of the other PVP guilds, groups, and players in your faction in order to grab the scroll, then yeah, its pretty selfish to take advantage of that group effort to go AP farm with no intent of parking that scroll so everyone else can get AP from the quest and benefit from the faction score. After all, everyone who's not in your farming group doesn't get any of that AP from the scroll they worked to get access to, since most scroll captures are a group effort from the faction.

Its detrimental to the campaign score - each scroll is worth 10 points.

Its also detrimental to what your faction can accomplish in the immediate future - which scrolls your faction has determines which enemy scrolls they can claim or which home scrolls they don't have to guard as heavily. Trolling or farming around with a home scroll in particular limits your alliance's options for scroll takes badly.

Now, you made it clear that you don't care. I can't make you care. But let's not deny that anytime players piggyback off the effort of their faction to get a scroll and then go troll or AP farm with it, they absolutely are working against their faction.

generally speaking if your playing main campaign of grey host? and im EP and we are winning by 6k already with a lead the people can chill, we farming. Also if im seiging a keep to get those scrolls and a PVP guild rolls up and wants to take the scroll. sorry boss man but I was there first for the scroll. Now im not going to grab the scroll and hand it off to the other faction's because I want to, Im doing that to reset the timer to farm them.

Remember the days of Vivec when campaigns WERE competitive? Then the lock came in to make them.... competitive?
Next thing the main campaign is one faction winning by a landslide. GG

Nothing competitive about locks now. EP wins. Again and again and again.

Guess i should play another faction to help here OH WAIT.

yeah, Vivec felt more like guild vs guild and you would see EP guilds fighting DC, I feel the main effect that's causing a landslide is because EP has alot of new players constantly who can deal with ESO pvp Lag.

ellahellabella

sirston wrote: »

ellahellabella wrote: »

sirston wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

sirston wrote: »

just because I want to make more AP by having a group im in with 2 scrolls and not turning them in is not going against the faction, Im an imperial EP but end of the day AP is AP and I don't care who I tread on even if its my own faction.

Your two statements seem to contradict each other - you make it clear that you know that not parking those scrolls in a home keep or temple is detrimental to your faction, you just don't care who you tread on.

Not that I expect to convince someone who explicitly doesn't care, but yeah, its detrimental.

If you/your group put in all the effort to get the scroll: capturing the keep, or in the case of enemy home scrolls, capturing two keeps, breaking into the gate, and grabbing the scroll from the temple, fine. I'm not going to complain if you go farm AP with a scroll you put all the effort into getting. (In my experience, that's fairly rare outside of a few PVP guilds who will actually capture scrolls completely on their own for farming purposes.)

If you instead piggy-backed off the effort of the other PVP guilds, groups, and players in your faction in order to grab the scroll, then yeah, its pretty selfish to take advantage of that group effort to go AP farm with no intent of parking that scroll so everyone else can get AP from the quest and benefit from the faction score. After all, everyone who's not in your farming group doesn't get any of that AP from the scroll they worked to get access to, since most scroll captures are a group effort from the faction.

Its detrimental to the campaign score - each scroll is worth 10 points.

Its also detrimental to what your faction can accomplish in the immediate future - which scrolls your faction has determines which enemy scrolls they can claim or which home scrolls they don't have to guard as heavily. Trolling or farming around with a home scroll in particular limits your alliance's options for scroll takes badly.

Now, you made it clear that you don't care. I can't make you care. But let's not deny that anytime players piggyback off the effort of their faction to get a scroll and then go troll or AP farm with it, they absolutely are working against their faction.

generally speaking if your playing main campaign of grey host? and im EP and we are winning by 6k already with a lead the people can chill, we farming. Also if im seiging a keep to get those scrolls and a PVP guild rolls up and wants to take the scroll. sorry boss man but I was there first for the scroll. Now im not going to grab the scroll and hand it off to the other faction's because I want to, Im doing that to reset the timer to farm them.

Remember the days of Vivec when campaigns WERE competitive? Then the lock came in to make them.... competitive?
Next thing the main campaign is one faction winning by a landslide. GG

Nothing competitive about locks now. EP wins. Again and again and again.

Guess i should play another faction to help here OH WAIT.

yeah, Vivec felt more like guild vs guild and you would see EP guilds fighting DC, I feel the main effect that's causing a landslide is because EP has alot of new players constantly who can deal with ESO pvp Lag.

You know that dc won a lot in vivec?

idk

Joy_Division wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

xWarbrain wrote: »

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

This would totally never happen if ZOS forced everybody to only play on one alliance.

Even proponents of the faction locked campaigns understood that some players are always going to be trolls. Its human nature. You can increase the consequences of trolling i.e. you are stuck with the alliance you just annoyed for the rest of the campaign, but you can't eradicate it.

I'm not sure how faction lock increases the consequences though. This kind of player does not care about the alliance they are on anyway. And you can find potatoes to 1vX and empty resource towers to farm in on any side.

To me it seems like faction lock only promotes trolling out of spite.

Well, for that to work it would need to be true faction lock with the old way of doing things. IE cost to change and change only at the end of the camp. No housing ANY other alliance on that server after you have homed it, nor can you guest with enemy faction on that server. Players get to know rather quickly who the trolls are and ostracize them from the faction. If they only swap over next camp....players over on whatever the new faction is get to be trolled and deal with the toxicity until they are tired of it...the player moves again. This goes on forever for the truly damaged who do this often. For others, its just too much moving around for them so they tend to dial it down some as to not be 'known' for the behaviors.

The player that gave the other team the hammer obviously isn't worried about being ostracized by other players. Faction lock, no matter how long it lasts, is not effective against people trolling on the internet, which is what that player was doing.

There are more people that want to play on multiple factions for the sake of playing on multiple factions than there are people that want to play on multiple factions for the sake of spying or screwing over their alliance.

Instead, what we have seen is that a number of players who used to troll have decided to stick with their most favored faction. This means fewer people faction hopping to troll for a few hours. It also means that some players who used to troll or be jerks to their chosen faction now have to consider whether or not they want to deal with the reputation they gain based on their behavior. YMMV, of course, but I've seen a lot less objectionable behavior and zone chat from certain players I still recognize as Alliance regulars who used to be a lot more jerkish about it before the faction lock. So faction lock is effective against some forms of trolling and anti-alliance behavior, certainly more so than the unlocked campaigns ever were. Its just not effective against every single troll ever, which is a pretty absurd standard.

There is just confirmation bias. When the old faction hopper is suddenly a good solider, it'e because they are coerced? No, our behavior has not changed one bit. We were never the source of the plague of problems that the faction-block advocates claimed to be; they portrayed as such that every night we had nothing better to do than steal scrolls, steal people's siege, or do other nonsense that quite frankly requires more effort than it's worth. And, of course, it was just the faction loyalists who were the poor victims, as if someone who only plays on one faction wouldn't ever do a jerky thing like throw a scroll in Lava just to see a bunch of fools try and get it. I've played this game for 6 years, have multiple 5 star characters, and I've only got an elder Scroll one time. Once! And yet I as a filthy faction hopper am supposed to plan out my ESO experience to hand off a scroll to my AD buddies? LOL. If I have not done that since faction locks were implemented, it's because I never did that in the first place.

No, sorry, faction lock players don;t get to claim victory here because it's completely anecdotal and their perspective is entirely warped: they made it out that every single hour the small percentage of multi-faction players were handing over scrolls, flipping a pop locked map, etc., as if it were even possible for us to do such things.

I have to agree that much of the faction lock information is merely confirmation bias just as it is when someone ways the faction lock campaign is full so everyone supports faction locks. Just because players are in the faction lock campaign does not mean they support faction locks. Most of them probably do not care about such petty issues as they just want to PvP. Most that have expressed they do not support faction locks do so because they are pointless.

idk

Soul_Demon wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

This would totally never happen if ZOS forced everybody to only play on one alliance.

Even proponents of the faction locked campaigns understood that some players are always going to be trolls. Its human nature. You can increase the consequences of trolling i.e. you are stuck with the alliance you just annoyed for the rest of the campaign, but you can't eradicate it.

I'm not sure how faction lock increases the consequences though. This kind of player does not care about the alliance they are on anyway. And you can find potatoes to 1vX and empty resource towers to farm in on any side.

To me it seems like faction lock only promotes trolling out of spite.

Well, for that to work it would need to be true faction lock with the old way of doing things. IE cost to change and change only at the end of the camp. No housing ANY other alliance on that server after you have homed it, nor can you guest with enemy faction on that server. Players get to know rather quickly who the trolls are and ostracize them from the faction. If they only swap over next camp....players over on whatever the new faction is get to be trolled and deal with the toxicity until they are tired of it...the player moves again. This goes on forever for the truly damaged who do this often. For others, its just too much moving around for them so they tend to dial it down some as to not be 'known' for the behaviors.

The old way of doing things permitted players to change factions in a campaign mid stream. I know this as fact since I had to remove a character from a campaign to place a character of a different faction into that campaign to help a guildmate push for Emporer. This was in 2014.

So your information about the old ways of doing things is inaccurate.

VaranisArano

ellahellabella wrote: »

sirston wrote: »

ellahellabella wrote: »

sirston wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

sirston wrote: »

just because I want to make more AP by having a group im in with 2 scrolls and not turning them in is not going against the faction, Im an imperial EP but end of the day AP is AP and I don't care who I tread on even if its my own faction.

Your two statements seem to contradict each other - you make it clear that you know that not parking those scrolls in a home keep or temple is detrimental to your faction, you just don't care who you tread on.

Not that I expect to convince someone who explicitly doesn't care, but yeah, its detrimental.

If you/your group put in all the effort to get the scroll: capturing the keep, or in the case of enemy home scrolls, capturing two keeps, breaking into the gate, and grabbing the scroll from the temple, fine. I'm not going to complain if you go farm AP with a scroll you put all the effort into getting. (In my experience, that's fairly rare outside of a few PVP guilds who will actually capture scrolls completely on their own for farming purposes.)

If you instead piggy-backed off the effort of the other PVP guilds, groups, and players in your faction in order to grab the scroll, then yeah, its pretty selfish to take advantage of that group effort to go AP farm with no intent of parking that scroll so everyone else can get AP from the quest and benefit from the faction score. After all, everyone who's not in your farming group doesn't get any of that AP from the scroll they worked to get access to, since most scroll captures are a group effort from the faction.

Its detrimental to the campaign score - each scroll is worth 10 points.

Its also detrimental to what your faction can accomplish in the immediate future - which scrolls your faction has determines which enemy scrolls they can claim or which home scrolls they don't have to guard as heavily. Trolling or farming around with a home scroll in particular limits your alliance's options for scroll takes badly.

Now, you made it clear that you don't care. I can't make you care. But let's not deny that anytime players piggyback off the effort of their faction to get a scroll and then go troll or AP farm with it, they absolutely are working against their faction.

generally speaking if your playing main campaign of grey host? and im EP and we are winning by 6k already with a lead the people can chill, we farming. Also if im seiging a keep to get those scrolls and a PVP guild rolls up and wants to take the scroll. sorry boss man but I was there first for the scroll. Now im not going to grab the scroll and hand it off to the other faction's because I want to, Im doing that to reset the timer to farm them.

Remember the days of Vivec when campaigns WERE competitive? Then the lock came in to make them.... competitive?
Next thing the main campaign is one faction winning by a landslide. GG

Nothing competitive about locks now. EP wins. Again and again and again.

Guess i should play another faction to help here OH WAIT.

yeah, Vivec felt more like guild vs guild and you would see EP guilds fighting DC, I feel the main effect that's causing a landslide is because EP has alot of new players constantly who can deal with ESO pvp Lag.

You know that dc won a lot in vivec?

Yep, they did. I mostly play primetime, but the DC and AD guilds have always been solid opponents for EP both in Vivec and Kaal.


Though to be honest, EP winning streaks aren't necessarily anything new. EP had a 4-campaign winning streak on both Vivec and Kaalgrontiid. Unfortunately I didn't keep good enough records over Vivec to say if AD or DC had long winning streaks on Vivec. They each had a 2-campaign win streak on Kaal.

The big difference I see with Kaal is the score differentials. My suspicion is that those are driven primarily by the same old bugbear that plagued Vivec and Trueflame: low population time frames always see population imbalances AND have a big impact on the score (less charitably known as "nightcapping"). Alliance lock makes the population imbalance more stark during low pop time since no one can swap to "fight for the underdog" and so the score differential created is correspondingly larger. It was always a problem that players complained about long before Kaal, its just that its made more obvious by the lock.

The solution?
Well, its the same solution that ZOS could have used for the same problem in Vivec and Trueflame: rework how Cyrodiil scoring works so that times with higher faction pop imbalances don't weigh so heavily on the score.
Only ZOS doesn't seem interested in updating the scoring system regardless of whether we have faction lock or not.

JamilaRaj

manny254 wrote: »

You realize the entire point of a three Alliance system is for the two losing Alliances to help each other until the power shifts?

Joking?
Anyway, while this looks good on paper, because it sounds very reasonable, it does not work, because it is based on premise that completely ignores the fact that attacking (!) the dominant alliance is markedly more frustrating PvP than attacking the other losing alliance, however pointless it may be, because ultimately players are here to _enjoy_ a game, not suffer.
Not that this would be a new observation, but apparently the three alliance "system" nonsense still has not gone away.

heng14rwb17_ESO

TRAITORS MUST DIE !