What people should understand about Animation Canceling and the performance overhauls.

andreasv

Tigerseye wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Why is the only argument against AC is always ''it wasnt intended'' like thats a bad thing? You know what else wasnt intended? Discovery of penicillin. But it turned out to be a lifesaver for countless people.

You seem to make that same analogy in every thread on this subject...

If you are so superior to everyone else, maybe think of a new one.

Why not repeating a good analogy when it serves the discussion? Likewise, why doesn't the anti - animation cancelling camp come up with a new argument besides it wasn't intended?

Thevampirenight

Casterial wrote: »

no tldr, but you forgot they moved ALL calculations to the server off of the client ~3-4years ago.

Yeah they did something so players couldn't do stuff with it. @mocap
I think the better performance would be to have more the client do the calculations but because of abuse they had to move all that to the servers and the servers had to give you that infomation. That would mean that the servers are doing what the client would do basically.
So that means latency would be effected a lot by the many calculations the server has to send to you and you have to send to it. Because its the server doing doing the calculations not the client and it has to calculate so many calculations. That was when I meant when I said anti bot code or whatever. I wasn't sure what they did but they did something to make it to where performance goes down so badly. But I think Casterial has a point. If the clients were doing these calculations the game would be a lot better for people. But since the servers have to do the clients job now that could be the issue. The biggest issue when it comes to performance.

JAwtunes

So the lag in cyro when an aoe blob hits another aoe blob is due to the ani cancelling of these super potatoes. Yet more forum nonsense.

colossalvoids

We had lots of threads, videos, even dev ones explaining what ani cancelling is and yet again people can't handle simple info and going full tinfoil about it. I wonder if those people paying any attention to what they actually do and how it works in game.
Glad there was already people pointing out some wrong stuff and conclusions made but at this point Gill needs a livestream answering community questions on a subject and debunking it once and for all along with why/how they going about issues they're started solving recently, as people seems kinda clueless and pointing fingers at the sky randomly.

Thevampirenight

colossalvoids wrote: »

We had lots of threads, videos, even dev ones explaining what ani cancelling is and yet again people can't handle simple info and going full tinfoil about it. I wonder if those people paying any attention to what they actually do and how it works in game.
Glad there was already people pointing out some wrong stuff and conclusions made but at this point Gill needs a livestream answering community questions on a subject and debunking it once and for all along with why/how they going about issues they're started solving recently, as people seems kinda clueless and pointing fingers at the sky randomly.

Well its a lot like santa claus children are taught hes real just for the magical thrill of it. I think its part of our culture but well some people could actually not believe their parents when they go out and tell their kids the truth that he not real. So its more of a thing that people think and feel and well its not always true.We can convince ourselves of things even try to theorize and or mistype things blurring the lines with speculation and fact I made that mistake with this thread. However we can say things are this or this and this and most of us have done it I think at least I have. So I shouldn't judge people for doing so. But that does not make them true.

JAwtunes

Thevampirenight wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

We had lots of threads, videos, even dev ones explaining what ani cancelling is and yet again people can't handle simple info and going full tinfoil about it. I wonder if those people paying any attention to what they actually do and how it works in game.
Glad there was already people pointing out some wrong stuff and conclusions made but at this point Gill needs a livestream answering community questions on a subject and debunking it once and for all along with why/how they going about issues they're started solving recently, as people seems kinda clueless and pointing fingers at the sky randomly.

Well its a lot like santa claus children are taught hes real just for the magical thrill of it. I think its part of our culture but well some people could actually not believe their parents when they go out and tell their kids the truth that he not real. So its more of a thing that people think and feel and well its not always true.We can convince ourselves of things even try to theorize and or mistype things blurring the lines with speculation and fact I made that mistake with this thread. However we can say things are this or this and this and most of us have done it I think at least I have. So I shouldn't judge people for doing so. But that does not make them true.

Amazing

Thevampirenight

JAwtunes wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

We had lots of threads, videos, even dev ones explaining what ani cancelling is and yet again people can't handle simple info and going full tinfoil about it. I wonder if those people paying any attention to what they actually do and how it works in game.
Glad there was already people pointing out some wrong stuff and conclusions made but at this point Gill needs a livestream answering community questions on a subject and debunking it once and for all along with why/how they going about issues they're started solving recently, as people seems kinda clueless and pointing fingers at the sky randomly.

Well its a lot like santa claus children are taught hes real just for the magical thrill of it. I think its part of our culture but well some people could actually not believe their parents when they go out and tell their kids the truth that he not real. So its more of a thing that people think and feel and well its not always true.We can convince ourselves of things even try to theorize and or mistype things blurring the lines with speculation and fact I made that mistake with this thread. However we can say things are this or this and this and most of us have done it I think at least I have. So I shouldn't judge people for doing so. But that does not make them true.

Amazing

Hmm?

NeillMcAttack

Would love to see Gilliam, or someone from the dev team, take a bunch of questions and theories from threads like this and give a genuine level-headed explanation to certain systems and how they function both within an optimal environment and the real networking environment. Perhaps, even brief explanations about the middle ground needed etc.
We are not children after all, well, at least not all of us!

Coppes

andreasv wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Why is the only argument against AC is always ''it wasnt intended'' like thats a bad thing? You know what else wasnt intended? Discovery of penicillin. But it turned out to be a lifesaver for countless people.

You seem to make that same analogy in every thread on this subject...

If you are so superior to everyone else, maybe think of a new one.

Why not repeating a good analogy when it serves the discussion? Likewise, why doesn't the anti - animation cancelling camp come up with a new argument besides it wasn't intended?

Describing animation cancelling to a ground-breaking scientific discovery is a pretty weird analogy.

There have also been other arguments against AC than “it wasn’t intended”. Though if you want to believe it, in some way you could say that AC-supporters always bring up that AC brings “skill to the game”.

Grianasteri

Lotta folks do not understand the impact ones internet connection has on dps, or discount it.

I always wondered if this was the reason I struggled so much to raise my dps higher, when I felt like I was doing everything right and practised so hard, listening to guides and building accordingly etc.

But by parsing on a target dummy for so long, I got to see some things. Many people talk about "lag spikes" and such, periods where their connection drops lower for a few seconds and they therefore lose dps as a result, skills and light attacks fire slower, or not at all etc.

I get the opposite almost. My connection is poor ALL the time and I discovered this because I get these "spikes" of very good connection, at certain points of my rotation, for a few seconds only. Literally, without any exaggeration, my rotation goes TWICE as fast. Its incredible when it happens. It made me realise that it wasnt just me, there was more to it.

Now, through hard work and practice I have got my dps to a pretty decent standard, way way above average and fine for veteran trials/dungeons etc. But my goodness it seems it could be so much better with a decent interwebz connection.
.

Thevampirenight

Yeah my latency tends to go in the 100s 200s range. Sometimes goes lower then 100 sometimes spikes up higher into 300s or even 999 but for the most part i think it is more consistent in the 100/200s range. My fps is terrible though,if most of the calculations are actually done by the server and not the client the fps could still be crap and yet game is still playable. So long as your internet connection/latency is good without that the game might be completely unplayable for me. The lag I do experience does seem to come the most when latency peaks I noticed not my fps as that tends to be below ten So I don't know what its like to have 60 or 70 fps.
Even with my potato laptop still able to play battle grounds and still able to do in game content.

Lysette

Well, it has been always like this - latency matters in pvp and if your ping is high and you play against people with 50ms ping or less, you will not stand a chance. And latency spikes are even worse, because they delay your actions in an unpredictable way and mess with your combat routine. Connection and ping matter a lot.

Chaos2088

Is there a summary? as that was way too much text.

Thevampirenight

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Is there a summary? as that was way too much text.

I'm not sure how to summarize it. Basically the idea I had was to try and explain some things and make a complete idiot of myself get called out on it and see my mistake and then correct it and well. The idea is trying to be helpful and maybe explaining how I think but well sometimes i'm not so good with it. Right now not sure how to summarize it right now. Sometimes I use spoilers to shorten a thread if its to big. Or a post if there is so much text I put in there.

idk

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Is there a summary? as that was way too much text.

I linked a video in a post on the first page. Gilliam explains what was happening with blocking before this update and what is happening on PC/Mac live now.

Mostly, much of what we have called AC has merely been our clients showing us something is happening before it happens. Block showed being active a moment before it happened. With this, a skill used just before we activated block seemed to have its animation canceled, and the damage was done, yet it was pretty much the client giving us false information. The server controls those actions and as such do not occur until the server says they occurred.

I have not read the edited version of the OP, but it still seems way too long for something so simple.

Edit: I clarified I had not read the edited version of the OP vs just an edited version of something generic.

Lysette

idk wrote: »

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Is there a summary? as that was way too much text.

I linked a video in a post on the first page. Gilliam explains what was happening with blocking before this update and what is happening on PC/Mac live now.

Essentially, much of what we have called AC has merely been our clients showing us something is happening before it actually happens. Block showed being active a moment before it happened. With this, a skill used just before we activated block seemed to have its animation canceled and the damage was done yet it was pretty much the client giving us false information. Essentially, those actions are actually controlled by the server and as such do not occur until the server says they occurred.

I have not read the edited version but it still seems way too long for something so simple.

Yeah and now the client is showing it to us after it has happened - which isn't a problem and wasn't before with a low ping, but isn't any better than before with a high ping - both is giving information at the wrong time with a high ping. this cannot be avoided. For people with low ping the new way of doing it is better though.

idk

Lysette wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Chaos2088 wrote: »

Is there a summary? as that was way too much text.

I linked a video in a post on the first page. Gilliam explains what was happening with blocking before this update and what is happening on PC/Mac live now.

Essentially, much of what we have called AC has merely been our clients showing us something is happening before it actually happens. Block showed being active a moment before it happened. With this, a skill used just before we activated block seemed to have its animation canceled and the damage was done yet it was pretty much the client giving us false information. Essentially, those actions are actually controlled by the server and as such do not occur until the server says they occurred.

I have not read the edited version but it still seems way too long for something so simple.

Yeah and now the client is showing it to us after it has happened - which isn't a problem and wasn't before with a low ping, but isn't any better than before with a high ping - both is giving information at the wrong time with a high ping. this cannot be avoided. For people with low ping the new way of doing it is better though.

I agree the change to block shows it happening slightly after the server says it is active. I am also not suggesting the changes are good or bad as I think it is to early to tell. I am merely pointing out a clearer and more concise explanation for what OP is trying to explain.

The issue with high latency is an issue regardless. Even if Zos turned combat into the antiquated styles we have seen in WoW and FF14 those with high latency will still suffer regardless.

Lysette

Yeah, I said it cannot be avoided with high ping - there is simply no way to do it. But it will improve gameplay for those with a low ping after they got used to it.

Septimus_Magna

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Aninmation canceling is basically desyncing your abilties so you can cast them faster and improve dps or other aspects of the game making combat seem faster then it would without it.
Problem is well all that desynced communication goes to the server given all the desyncing going on around especially in areas where there is high lag sinks created by zergs in pvp. might confuse to the servers. Which doesn't help server performance at all and hurts game play performance for others. When the game and servers were not boggled down with code game could handle it just fine. These days the way things are in the game it just can't handle animation canceling and all these % based calculations.

Basis of what I'm trying to say is the game can't handle things like it could when it launched. Many reasons, biggest is the protections they put into place and the cp system but also Animation canceling and other things making it worse as they need to rewrite the coding of the software. All the new percent based calculations don't help and coding like the alliance lock does not help. Which I suspect might be the reason why they only did one alliance locked campaign this time around.

I really appreciate you trying to explain some aspects of this update but I feel like a big part of your story is based on misinformation and false assumptions. I cannot address everything because the exact working of most systems has never been explained in detail.

For starters, there's no such thing as computers getting confused. The signal is either a 0 or 1, there's nothing to be confused about. There is such a thing as packet loss during high server loads which might be what you're describing.

Second, animation cancelling is not desyncing your abilities. Ive played the beta and combat responsiveness has been a major focus point from the start. The goal of animation cancelling is that you can perform actions like block, dodge, interrupt, light attack, bar swap almost instantly. As it turned out, it was very hard to react to an attack if you had to wait for the animation of a previously casted ability to end. So abilities were put on a timer, separate of the actions to make combat responsive. You can reduce the time between abilities by ending the animation with an action but only up to the point of the timer. The dps gain mainly comes from light attacks in between abilities and not having to wait for the complete animation to finish. Some abilities have a very long animation for an instant cast ability so this is a good thing as it doesnt give any classes a disadvantage.

There's little indication that animation cancelling is actually causing latency issues, by weaving abilities they might go off a little quicker causing more calculations per second but putting down a single ground AOE would be significantly more impactful in terms of calculations per second. I do think there's something to say for all the aspects that can effect the outcome of the calculations such as CP, gear, skills, passives etc. I think ZOS has commented on the fact that there was optimization possible for the way the server handles all these variables.

Kolzki

There seems to be some misinformation about animation cancelling circulating around the forums since Gilliam’s video describing the block changes. That video explain how block cancelling specifically could lead to desyncs and how they have fixed it.

Fingolfinn01

So Caltrops was nerfed because every stamina dps build was using it, and negatively affected performance. Rather than say that they just made up a story to justify it. >>>>>????

Leeched

dazee wrote: »

TBH there isnt really any issue with healing springs. I heal vet DLC dungeons and honestly barely end up using it, I use breath of life way more since its a hell a lot more healing for one target, and usually the tank is the one taking huge quick damage. healing springs I use at most a couple times in a row on people when huge aoe healing is needed- not really that often in the dungeons I was running- and I use barrier on backbar to make people need less aoe healing.

Thats why I REALLY dislike templar healers in vet dlc dungs and other harder content. Bol should be a skill you use in an 'emregency' and not spam it. You should heal with HOTs (regen, springs, ritual) and buff with combat prayer which itself offers a really good burst heal and is cheap. Whenever I tank a dung and see a templar healer, I already know it will most likely be a bol spammer and wont be able heal me when he should cause he rans out of resources healing tank and dds for ~2k dmg taken before by spamming bol. Those healers most of the time lie dead on the ground halfway through any harder boss fight.
Healers who say springs and other hots are bad simply have no clue how to play healer imho.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings all,

After removing a few off topic and baiting posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding,

ZeroXFF

Ankael07 wrote: »

Why is the only argument against AC is always ''it wasnt intended'' like thats a bad thing? You know what else wasnt intended? Discovery of penicillin. But it turned out to be a lifesaver for countless people.

So many people dont have the necessary muscle memory to execute AC and thats okay. But that doesnt give you the right to butcher gameplay fluidity for many other people

Saying that that's the only argument against AC is like saying that the only argument for it is that it's how it's always been. Well, just because it's always been that way doesn't mean that it's good. You know what has always been up until the 19th century? Slavery. Should we not have abandoned it, just because it's always been that way up until then?

If you like clicker games, fine, but don't bring your mid-2000's flash game design preferences to a modern MMORPG.

Aikar

Leeched wrote: »

dazee wrote: »

TBH there isnt really any issue with healing springs. I heal vet DLC dungeons and honestly barely end up using it, I use breath of life way more since its a hell a lot more healing for one target, and usually the tank is the one taking huge quick damage. healing springs I use at most a couple times in a row on people when huge aoe healing is needed- not really that often in the dungeons I was running- and I use barrier on backbar to make people need less aoe healing.

Thats why I REALLY dislike templar healers in vet dlc dungs and other harder content. Bol should be a skill you use in an 'emregency' and not spam it. You should heal with HOTs (regen, springs, ritual) and buff with combat prayer which itself offers a really good burst heal and is cheap. Whenever I tank a dung and see a templar healer, I already know it will most likely be a bol spammer and wont be able heal me when he should cause he rans out of resources healing tank and dds for ~2k dmg taken before by spamming bol. Those healers most of the time lie dead on the ground halfway through any harder boss fight.
Healers who say springs and other hots are bad simply have no clue how to play healer imho.

Id be questioning why in the world would they be using BOL instead of HTD anyways... thats the true crime.

roflcopter

ZOS should just put a setting in game to turn off animations and be done with it let the players decide how they want to play. These threads are just getting stupid and way too toxic.


GG ZOS