The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
• PC/Mac: NA megaserver for maintenance – April 25, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 2:00PM EDT (18:00 UTC)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
Defile on blastbones needs a rework.
iCaliban
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First of all, the fix to make blastbones a reliable skill is a great change that should have been implemented 6+ months ago.
On to the real issue, aoe defile attached to a high damage, cheap, reliable skill is inherently over tuned. Especially when the rest of the necro kit is taken into consideration. Defiles were rightly nerfed not long ago for being too oppressive.
Suggestions on what to replace it with would be welcome.
For the inevitable "we need counters to the tank meta!": necro is by far the tankiest class in game, and already has 1 tool in its kit that is head and shoulders above any other debuff in game via major vuln. One class having access to both 30% damage taken and 30% healing reduction (possible 45% with minor defile proccing off the skill itself) is far far too much. Instead of discouraging tanky builds, stam necros current state will cause players to stack even more mitigation and healing.
On to the real issue, aoe defile attached to a high damage, cheap, reliable skill is inherently over tuned. Especially when the rest of the necro kit is taken into consideration. Defiles were rightly nerfed not long ago for being too oppressive.
Suggestions on what to replace it with would be welcome.
For the inevitable "we need counters to the tank meta!": necro is by far the tankiest class in game, and already has 1 tool in its kit that is head and shoulders above any other debuff in game via major vuln. One class having access to both 30% damage taken and 30% healing reduction (possible 45% with minor defile proccing off the skill itself) is far far too much. Instead of discouraging tanky builds, stam necros current state will cause players to stack even more mitigation and healing.
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wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some of us have been saying this for a while, but ZOS seemingly ignored the PTS forums. The Magicka morph's secondary effect is mostly worthless now, while the Stamina one is very much overpowered (especially since Stam can also stack Minor Defile on top of it). Stamina builds also have better ways of keeping targets within their Colossus Ultimate, especially after the evisceration of Vamp Drain, as well as a (much) better offensive toolkit in general.
As for exactly what the Major Defile should be changed to...I dunno. I'm still of the opinion that Stamina should never have been given so many morphs of class abilities to begin with, given how the game was supposedly balanced up to that point; Stam getting broad access to many good "generic" skills and a handful of class-specific ones, with Magicka being the opposite. But with Necromancer, Stamina builds basically have the best morphs of all the worthwhile skills, except for Resistant Flesh and Renewing Undeath.9 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some of us have been saying this for a while, but ZOS seemingly ignored the PTS forums. The Magicka morph's secondary effect is mostly worthless now, while the Stamina one is very much overpowered (especially since Stam can also stack Minor Defile on top of it). Stamina builds also have better ways of keeping targets within their Colossus Ultimate, especially after the evisceration of Vamp Drain, as well as a (much) better offensive toolkit in general.
As for exactly what the Major Defile should be changed to...I dunno. I'm still of the opinion that Stamina should never have been given so many morphs of class abilities to begin with, given how the game was supposedly balanced up to that point; Stam getting broad access to many good "generic" skills and a handful of class-specific ones, with Magicka being the opposite. But with Necromancer, Stamina builds basically have the best morphs of all the worthwhile skills, except for Resistant Flesh and Renewing Undeath.
This trend started with warden and has fully metastasized with necro. Making so many class skills have both magicka and stamina morphs is pointless. Stamina has become green magicka.
But, stamina still has inherent cost reduction along with more damage and access to the best hot in game and more weapon lines. The only thing mag necro has is easier access to harmony cheese.
Regardless of the dumb idea to make so many class skills stam based, stam blast bones as an individual skill is greatly overtuned
Edited by iCaliban on February 25, 2020 4:31AM3 -
ecru✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some of us have been saying this for a while, but ZOS seemingly ignored the PTS forums. The Magicka morph's secondary effect is mostly worthless now, while the Stamina one is very much overpowered (especially since Stam can also stack Minor Defile on top of it). Stamina builds also have better ways of keeping targets within their Colossus Ultimate, especially after the evisceration of Vamp Drain, as well as a (much) better offensive toolkit in general.
As for exactly what the Major Defile should be changed to...I dunno. I'm still of the opinion that Stamina should never have been given so many morphs of class abilities to begin with, given how the game was supposedly balanced up to that point; Stam getting broad access to many good "generic" skills and a handful of class-specific ones, with Magicka being the opposite. But with Necromancer, Stamina builds basically have the best morphs of all the worthwhile skills, except for Resistant Flesh and Renewing Undeath.
The magicka morph also lost 10% crit (major prophecy no longer increases it's crit chance), so it was essentially nerfed twice. I reported it the second day of PTS, and reported it in game on PTS, so yeah I don't think they're paying attention at all.
But yeah 100% uptime on Major Defile for like 1000 stam is hilariously broken, so I guess it's time to roll a stamcro?Gryphon Heart
Godslayer
Dawnbringer2 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭ZOS don’t care about combat balance they care about maximizing ROI. Much like they did with the warden, skill lines, and item sets they made sure that the new chapter content was superior to base game content. So, players would funnel into purchasing the new chapter to get access to the class and item sets. Just wait until those mythic weapons and items come out, they will be more of the same pay for power scheme.3
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Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You should know by now that balance will not happen in the game...I still stand by my statement when first PTS dropped that ZOS "totally missed the mark" this patch. Balance is bad on so many levels, especially in PvP.0 -
Moonsorrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭We gave a LOT of feedback on this issue on the PTS since the first week of it, even gave suggestions for easy fixes, some "kiss-curse" solutions and "quick & simple" (just make it atleast Minor Defile if lazy to do anything else) solututions on how to change it - but sadly all our feedback was ignored.
So they know and it (Stamcro) is now the intended FOTM spec to play for the next months. Then when Greymoor Chapter hits, it will get some nerfs (that most likely affect Magcro more in the end, remember Stamden nerfs that affected Magden, remember Stamblade nerfs that affected Magblade more in the end) and.. they will make some other class the next FOTM then as content for the rerollers as a summertime pvp beastmode.
You all (oldies who have been here for years) know this. So now that PTS is over, we will have to live with this situation the next months until the Chapter.
So adapt to it the best you can, either join the FOTM, or adapt build to fight the many Stamcros with same setups and playstyle. Have Major Evasion, ways to cleanse/avoid Blastbones Major Defile, or have enough burst to kill them (if thinking in a 1vs1 vacuum) before their Defile pressure turns a long fight in their favor.
Also remember that you can "neutralize" Blastbones in the short window (2,5 seconds) before they leap. Bursty offensive is best against Stamcro, never let them get in control of the fight.
I`ve ended many FOTM Stamcros already with my bursty Onslaught Stamblade. My cute but mean lil bosmer Blade does return the favor of less healing for the Stamcros with using Traumatic Poison (2000 Heal Absorption). They go down fast with no time to recover.
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iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Moonshadow66 in no cp it isnt possible to burst down blast bones that reliably unless you are in a 1 on 1 with a very strong offensive build. And even if you do, they will simply resummon.
Major evasion is mostly limited to stam toons. Cleanse is class limited (you arent winning a purge fight against a 1k cost skill)
The defile being attached to a skill with upwards of 14k tooltip is the problem. The moment it hits you, you are immediately thrown heavily on to the back foot. On top of that, it doesnt have the range limitations of most stam skills. BB is leaping from 28 meters away3 -
Moonsorrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭IDK if that was me you tried to tag (wrong username on your tag).. but yes, i use very offensive build(s), because do not enjoy playing a tank (i do that part at PVE), i have no problems with them.
Also, you can CC them, they cannot resummon during that window i mentioned.
But, if you are on some 1 tanky set, 1 sustain set, 1 damage set.. then you will have troubles with them on many classes/specs.
I am running 2 damage sets and 1 sustain/utility set at like all my solo Cyro builds that are not a healer/support.
I`ve always had this view on looking at things what comes to pvp, if it is a 1vs1 i will aim to end it fast, i do not need that much tankyness when enemy dies before i get hurt even, i do not stop to heal if run a bit low - i keep pressure up instead and put them down - usually the one who starts to heal and ends up defensive first takes the loss, since i will just pressure harder then. Until they die.
I mitigate more damage with LoS, movement, Dodge, Blocking than with what are considered as the "meta" tanky sets. And thus pretty much ALWAYS play on Medium or Light armor on all characters for maximum damage. if there are many, i kite and try to pick one by one or ultidump at closed space (depending on class/spec) if they happily follow me to the tower.
And yes, it can be pain sometimes if laggy.. so sometimes if really bad primetime lag - i come back later when fast bar swaps and skills work lol.
But yes, i know not all Mag specs can get Major Evasion easily. I solved that with DW back bar on some of my mag characters. You know what i mean. It just works. <- Can say that without using " " on it.
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katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Some of us have been saying this for a while, but ZOS seemingly ignored the PTS forums. The Magicka morph's secondary effect is mostly worthless now, while the Stamina one is very much overpowered (especially since Stam can also stack Minor Defile on top of it). Stamina builds also have better ways of keeping targets within their Colossus Ultimate, especially after the evisceration of Vamp Drain, as well as a (much) better offensive toolkit in general.
As for exactly what the Major Defile should be changed to...I dunno. I'm still of the opinion that Stamina should never have been given so many morphs of class abilities to begin with, given how the game was supposedly balanced up to that point; Stam getting broad access to many good "generic" skills and a handful of class-specific ones, with Magicka being the opposite. But with Necromancer, Stamina builds basically have the best morphs of all the worthwhile skills, except for Resistant Flesh and Renewing Undeath.
The magicka morph also lost 10% crit (major prophecy no longer increases it's crit chance), so it was essentially nerfed twice. I reported it the second day of PTS, and reported it in game on PTS, so yeah I don't think they're paying attention at all.
But yeah 100% uptime on Major Defile for like 1000 stam is hilariously broken, so I guess it's time to roll a stamcro?
Way better sets, better CC's, better defense in block/dodge, better morphs, better weapon skills, better access to a fully functional "kit", there is no reason to choose mag for almost any class, but if you run in a group it doesn't matter.
All the hysteria about major defile is just "nerf my opponent" whining. The other half of the player base is complaining about the exact opposite...too much healing.0 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'm still of the opinion that Stamina should never have been given so many morphs of class abilities to begin with, given how the game was supposedly balanced up to that point; Stam getting broad access to many good "generic" skills and a handful of class-specific ones, with Magicka being the opposite. But with Necromancer, Stamina builds basically have the best morphs of all the worthwhile skills, except for Resistant Flesh and Renewing Undeath.
I don't have a problem with classes having good stam options, so that the classes have a different feel to them whether you play mag or stam.
I do have a problem with stam having equal class skills and equal guild skills while stam has 4 offensive weapons to magicka's one, two viable DD armor types, and the best sets as well.2 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Even if you make it minor defile, if you look at everything the skill does, it would still be too strong.
PC EU
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ecru✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Moonshadow66 in no cp it isnt possible to burst down blast bones that reliably unless you are in a 1 on 1 with a very strong offensive build. And even if you do, they will simply resummon.
Major evasion is mostly limited to stam toons. Cleanse is class limited (you arent winning a purge fight against a 1k cost skill)
The defile being attached to a skill with upwards of 14k tooltip is the problem. The moment it hits you, you are immediately thrown heavily on to the back foot. On top of that, it doesnt have the range limitations of most stam skills. BB is leaping from 28 meters away
14k? i put together a stamcro in the build calculator with new moon/ww hide and i'm looking at a 20k blastbones tooltip right now, as nord.Gryphon Heart
Godslayer
Dawnbringer0 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Moonshadow66 in no cp it isnt possible to burst down blast bones that reliably unless you are in a 1 on 1 with a very strong offensive build. And even if you do, they will simply resummon.
Major evasion is mostly limited to stam toons. Cleanse is class limited (you arent winning a purge fight against a 1k cost skill)
The defile being attached to a skill with upwards of 14k tooltip is the problem. The moment it hits you, you are immediately thrown heavily on to the back foot. On top of that, it doesnt have the range limitations of most stam skills. BB is leaping from 28 meters away
14k? i put together a stamcro in the build calculator with new moon/ww hide and i'm looking at a 20k blastbones tooltip right now, as nord.
Im primarily a no CP player.0 -
You probably don't understand the sequence of all changes every patch. The General healing was edited so that Stamcro had access to Defile. You want to delete Defile but still stay on the current healing. Great idea!!!3 -
MaxJrFTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You probably don't understand the sequence of all changes every patch. The General healing was edited so that Stamcro had access to Defile. You want to delete Defile but still stay on the current healing. Great idea!!!
And you're assuming everyone has a pocket healer or access to 100% uptime on 30% less healing."I don't know you, and I don't care to know you."
―Ulrich Leland, 3E 4330 -
OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You probably don't understand the sequence of all changes every patch. The General healing was edited so that Stamcro had access to Defile. You want to delete Defile but still stay on the current healing. Great idea!!!
And you're assuming everyone has a pocket healer or access to 100% uptime on 30% less healing.
General healing is general healing. This applies to Vigor and Reg and the rest of the healing class abilities. If we consider this chain in the same way, after increasing the healing, the Mending buff and Vitality buff also became stronger. I think the DoT patch was related to healing testing.
Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on February 26, 2020 7:18AM0 -
I think a more balanced approach would be to cut the defile duration down to 3 seconds. This way when you stun it you'll have some breathing room and if you ignore it then you deserve to be defiled 100% of the time
Yea, this is one of the solutions to the 100% uptime problem. Devs can also increase the summon time for blastbones only for Stamcro. For example, +0.5 seconds or +1 second, so they don't have to redo all the Defile mechanics. After these changes, a new morph for Magro may appear, which is summoned faster. Perhaps this can seriously injure Stamcro as a whole.Edited by OrderoftheDarkness on February 26, 2020 7:44AM0 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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That may work out sorta-kinda OK for 1v1, but what about BGs or group fights in Cyrodiil, where there are multiple Stamina Necromancers (and there frequently will be) throwing around their Blastbones? Even if there's only 1, having 3 seconds on the Major Defile debuff still leads to virtually 100% uptime if you don't LOS, kill (from range), or CC every Blastbones. The "assembly time" is only 2.5 seconds, after all, and the debuff still applies if you block the explosion.I think a more balanced approach would be to cut the defile duration down to 3 seconds. This way when you stun it you'll have some breathing room and if you ignore it then you deserve to be defiled 100% of the time
They just need to change the secondary effect to something else entirely. Exactly what that should be, I'm not sure.1 -
MaxJrFTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You probably don't understand the sequence of all changes every patch. The General healing was edited so that Stamcro had access to Defile. You want to delete Defile but still stay on the current healing. Great idea!!!
And you're assuming everyone has a pocket healer or access to 100% uptime on 30% less healing.
General healing is general healing. This applies to Vigor and Reg and the rest of the healing class abilities. If we consider this chain in the same way, after increasing the healing, the Mending buff and Vitality buff also became stronger. I think the DoT patch was related to healing testing.
Stamcros have the best self healing in the game and 100% on uptime on major defile. Stop excusing your need for a crutch."I don't know you, and I don't care to know you."
―Ulrich Leland, 3E 4332 -
OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You probably don't understand the sequence of all changes every patch. The General healing was edited so that Stamcro had access to Defile. You want to delete Defile but still stay on the current healing. Great idea!!!
And you're assuming everyone has a pocket healer or access to 100% uptime on 30% less healing.
General healing is general healing. This applies to Vigor and Reg and the rest of the healing class abilities. If we consider this chain in the same way, after increasing the healing, the Mending buff and Vitality buff also became stronger. I think the DoT patch was related to healing testing.
Stamcros have the best self healing in the game and 100% on uptime on major defile. Stop excusing your need for a crutch.
Stop trying to impose their vision. I didn't even try to play this patch in pvp. How could you have any idea of my needs? In General, you have indicated your type of cause-and-effect relationship, it is called Stamcro has good self healing. I don't think we should continue the discussion after your answer. So as you ignored raising productivity such buffs as Mending and Vitality and responded as you need.0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You probably don't understand the sequence of all changes every patch. The General healing was edited so that Stamcro had access to Defile. You want to delete Defile but still stay on the current healing. Great idea!!!
And you're assuming everyone has a pocket healer or access to 100% uptime on 30% less healing.
General healing is general healing. This applies to Vigor and Reg and the rest of the healing class abilities. If we consider this chain in the same way, after increasing the healing, the Mending buff and Vitality buff also became stronger. I think the DoT patch was related to healing testing.
Stamcros have the best self healing in the game and 100% on uptime on major defile. Stop excusing your need for a crutch.
Huh. The hyperbole is strong with this one. Stamcro's do not have the best self healing "in the game". Jeez.
Necros have the best % damage mitigation "in the game". It used to be Templar, but they removed almost all of their sources of % damage reduction and gave it to Necro.4 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I fully expect them to nerf the base skill now by reducing damage and increasing cost. Thus leaving the stam morph still strong due to the overly oppressive maj defile, while the mag morph becomes trash.
It's such a classic ZOS combat team move, touching everything but the source of the problem, they could even trademark it.
Edited by Maulkin on February 26, 2020 3:52PMEU | PC | AD5 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »OrderoftheDarkness wrote: »You probably don't understand the sequence of all changes every patch. The General healing was edited so that Stamcro had access to Defile. You want to delete Defile but still stay on the current healing. Great idea!!!
And you're assuming everyone has a pocket healer or access to 100% uptime on 30% less healing.
General healing is general healing. This applies to Vigor and Reg and the rest of the healing class abilities. If we consider this chain in the same way, after increasing the healing, the Mending buff and Vitality buff also became stronger. I think the DoT patch was related to healing testing.
Stamcros have the best self healing in the game and 100% on uptime on major defile. Stop excusing your need for a crutch.
Huh. The hyperbole is strong with this one. Stamcro's do not have the best self healing "in the game". Jeez.
Necros have the best % damage mitigation "in the game". It used to be Templar, but they removed almost all of their sources of % damage reduction and gave it to Necro.
Effective healing is a combination of mitigation and raw HPS. Necros are tankier than any other class, which means their effective healing is far superior.
This fyi is the source of the tank meta. Eso rewards tanky builds with greater health pools, which when paired with s+b and strong hots...
Example: 20k hp at 0 resists is 20k effective health. 25k health at resist cap is 50k effective health. Take into account that high mitigation builds do not suffer lesser tooltips on healing via stronger weapon damage sets, s+b or other tools.
Necro is a perfect example of feature creep. It has a built in 10% mitigation, and several strong class hots which can be combined with vigor and rally on a stam necro.3 -
Freakin_Hytte✭✭✭✭✭One thing they could do is to remove defile and give major fracture instead, mag could get major breach, even though shalks already do that. Minor main could also be an option.
Also necro don't have access to major sorcery/brutality, so they could add something like "upon activation you get major brutality (major sorcery for mag morph) for x seconds".Edited by Freakin_Hytte on February 27, 2020 1:23AM0 -
MaxJrFTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Freakin_Hytte wrote: »One thing they could do is to remove defile and give major fracture instead, mag could get major breach, even though shalks already do that. Minor main could also be an option.
Also necro don't have access to major sorcery/brutality, so they could add something like "upon activation you get major brutality (major sorcery for mag morph) for x seconds".
Remove the secondary effect altogether. Blastbones hits as hard as an ult, and it hits every 3 seconds."I don't know you, and I don't care to know you."
―Ulrich Leland, 3E 4330 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I fully expect them to nerf the base skill now by reducing damage and increasing cost. Thus leaving the stam morph still strong due to the overly oppressive maj defile, while the mag morph becomes trash.
It's such a classic ZOS combat team move, touching everything but the source of the problem, they could even trademark it.
This.
I have a feeling they will over nerf it too, as usual, and the damage will be decreased by some ungodly amount like 50%. ZOS doesn't do low percentage amounts.
So no worries all, Blastbones and the Necro meta will only last until the chapter and then they'll go back to being crap.1 -
Commandment✭✭✭Necros have always been good, just needed to learn how to play the class even before they help fixed Blastbones, they didnt even buff it's damage.
You only cry because you never got rofl stomped by a good necro before. All this patch did was make sure blastbones don't come out and do a blank stare then die.
All classes are OP, and have there own gimmick, stop crying because someone used major defile on you. It's one of the necromancers main moves.3 -
OtarTheMad✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Commandment wrote: »Necros have always been good, just needed to learn how to play the class even before they help fixed Blastbones, they didnt even buff it's damage.
You only cry because you never got rofl stomped by a good necro before. All this patch did was make sure blastbones don't come out and do a blank stare then die.
All classes are OP, and have there own gimmick, stop crying because someone used major defile on you. It's one of the necromancers main moves.
Agreed.
I don't even see defile as a bad thing seeing as healing is still too easy. I mean yeah it hits hard but it has counters. I dodged a few in a BG a little while ago, purged defile other times.0 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭OtarTheMad wrote: »Commandment wrote: »Necros have always been good, just needed to learn how to play the class even before they help fixed Blastbones, they didnt even buff it's damage.
You only cry because you never got rofl stomped by a good necro before. All this patch did was make sure blastbones don't come out and do a blank stare then die.
All classes are OP, and have there own gimmick, stop crying because someone used major defile on you. It's one of the necromancers main moves.
Agreed.
I don't even see defile as a bad thing seeing as healing is still too easy. I mean yeah it hits hard but it has counters. I dodged a few in a BG a little while ago, purged defile other times.
Defile on a damage skill with 100% uptime does not have counters. Blastbones can cost as little as 1k stam. Purge is a losing game against it, and the aoe is not dodgeable in most instances.Commandment wrote: »Necros have always been good, just needed to learn how to play the class even before they help fixed Blastbones, they didnt even buff it's damage.
You only cry because you never got rofl stomped by a good necro before. All this patch did was make sure blastbones don't come out and do a blank stare then die.
All classes are OP, and have there own gimmick, stop crying because someone used major defile on you. It's one of the necromancers main moves.
Yea. Im not crying about anything.
Devs literally nerfed every single source of major defile in game because it was too strong. Then attach 100% uptime to a high damage skill? Doesnt take a genius to figure out something is wrong there2
