Dragons need balancing now...

Rittings

It's pretty apparent now that dragons are harder to kill since so few are now doing them... they were fine when you had 20 people killing them at once... but now you're lucky if you have another person helping you 2-man it... and that makes the quests almost impossible to kill 3 - at least if you are a daytime player only.

vivisectvib16_ESO

Agreed. Not just in the day time, but at night as well. Elsweyr seems dead as far as folks participating in dragon dailies goes.

Tigerseye

Rittings wrote: »

It's pretty apparent now that dragons are harder to kill since so few are now doing them... they were fine when you had 20 people killing them at once... but now you're lucky if you have another person helping you 2-man it... and that makes the quests almost impossible to kill 3 - at least if you are a daytime player only.

Certainly, that is the case now in Northern Elsweyr, on PC EU.

Also, people will do the N/W dragon, but leave all the others...

Frost one also gets left far more than the others do, for obvious reasons.

Southern Elsweyr is better, for now, but I guess that will die eventually, too.

Zulera301

not to mention that Soul Tear is the most ridiculous debuff they can spam/throw at you.

spartaxoxo

Yeah. This is why I don't think Overland content should be as difficult as dragons. It's fine and fun at first when there are many. But all of it eventually becomes an area with mostly casual players in small numbers or completely solo.

If they could make dragon damage scale on health, that would be awesome. But barring that, they should make it easier for people to do using average built characters. I'm talking like 20k dps.

Dusk_Coven

But what happened? Alik'r Dolmens too good in comparison? Where did people go for their farming?

RD065

Tigerseye wrote: »

Rittings wrote: »

It's pretty apparent now that dragons are harder to kill since so few are now doing them... they were fine when you had 20 people killing them at once... but now you're lucky if you have another person helping you 2-man it... and that makes the quests almost impossible to kill 3 - at least if you are a daytime player only.

Certainly, that is the case now in Northern Elsweyr, on PC EU.

Also, people will do the N/W dragon, but leave all the others...

Frost one also gets left far more than the others do, for obvious reasons.

Southern Elsweyr is better, for now, but I guess that will die eventually, too.

I do the N/W one. Its just closer to where I'm usually at. But when I do and I don't do them all the time there seems to be a fair amount of people (I did my last one 3 days ago) like 20-30.

Morgha_Kul

I've had the same thought. With so few people doing them, and so few people even in the zones, let alone willing, they're just sitting around in the zones waiting for... nothing.

This is why I've sometimes lamented that things like this aren't more involved in the environment. Imagine if leaving dragons (or dolmens) unchallenged caused trouble all over the zone? Imagine, no one stops the dolmen, so groups of daedra start attacking all over the place. Not too dangerous, but inconvenient. Imagine if the dragons would descend anywhere, on cities, anywhere. It would give everyone an incentive to go help kill the things (though it might also mean making their appearances less frequent).

In any case, just making them do rather less damage might be enough. That way we could defeat them if we took enough time.

RD065

Also I expect many who start a new character want to do their quests in order so they get out of Elsweyr and find the hooded one.

Plus Dolmen's in Alik'r, the circuit is just too easy.

Dusk_Coven

Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I've had the same thought. With so few people doing them, and so few people even in the zones, let alone willing, they're just sitting around in the zones waiting for... nothing.

Just like a lot of world bosses everywhere. Except guilds will have to pull more people to do an achievement run each time.
Might not be a huge problem in the end unless you somehow need the quest done right now. The number of people needed though exceeds Summerset bosses by a multiple though the mechanics are easier than some.

ArchMikem

Events tear players away from the usual grind. Wait till Murkmire is done and everyone will return.

Guyle

Place was just as dead prior to Murkmire events start

Dusk_Coven

RD065 wrote: »

Plus Dolmen's in Alik'r, the circuit is just too easy.

And I guess you can AFK more there without dying too.

Darkenarlol

nope they are funny for solo

sionIV

I've managed to solo a few of them, but they aren't worth it time wise.

daemonios

Make a group. Ask your guildies for help. Slot a purge, heal, and/or shield. Two people can down a dragon as long as at least one stays alive while the other one is ressing. You are not entitled to 1-minute dragon kills, even if that is what you got used to.

FierceSam

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

But what happened? Alik'r Dolmens too good in comparison? Where did people go for their farming?

If you want to go dragon farming then Southern Elsweyr is the place to go.

Northern Elsweyr dragons are terribly placed and badly designed. Two of the locations are so remote that new players, with low mount speeds (if indeed they even have mounts) will never get there and experienced player simply won’t bother as it takes so long for critical mass to be reached. This makes spawn rates lamentably slow. The upshot is that few bother to do their 3 dragons a day and those few spend their entire time camped out in the starter area landing zone. Meanwhile the dragons sit, like glorious turds untouched by players in their remote zones. My characters have got all the dragon achievements in Southern Elsweyr, none have got them all in Northern Elsweyr despite it having been out for longer and having had 2 months of special events cantered around dragon killing.

In contrast Southern Elsweyr dragons are conveniently placed, and spawn very frequently and attract more than enough players to make them fun to do.

As far as the Soul Bind attack goes, it’s offensive not because it’s so powerful, or because it’s unusual and hard to counter (especially for new players with fewer skills), but because no one in the game explains it. If the dragon daily quest giver had an optional dialogue sequence where they explained to the player exactly how dangerous the dragons’ attacks were and that they would have to purge themselves, that would be fine. Failing that the death recap should be specifically clear about exactly what killed you and how to counter it. Inquisitive newer/less experienced players would be rewarded for curiosity (rather than being punished for ignorance). Nothing is more counter productive and demoralising (and, sadly more typically ZOS) than being repeatedly one-shot by attacks that are never explained.

TL:DR Southern Elsweyr is where you go for top dragon action.

Raudgrani

They are a little like world bosses used to be. Now there's a handful of them I can't solo on a decent character, back in time you had to have a group to do them. I have taken down a dragon like roughly 1/3 with my "main", who's a PVP toon (and my main crafter, which is why I'm even trying).

Found this tanky S&B StamDK random some day, and we took down 3 dragons together - not exchanging a word, just cooperating. It took a looong time, and I had to give him cleanse all the time because of this Soul Tear and the horrible bleeds. We died a few times each, and wiped a couple of times. But yes, it was hard. Really hard. On the last dragon one someone leveling a sorc came by and helped us, but mainly it was just the two of us. And as I said, it took a looooong time. I think mainly because of all the adds, and because the coward dragon takes off and leaves the fighting ground about the same time you done all the adds - and none of us really had any ranged abilities either.

virtus753

FierceSam wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

But what happened? Alik'r Dolmens too good in comparison? Where did people go for their farming?

If you want to go dragon farming then Southern Elsweyr is the place to go.

Northern Elsweyr dragons are terribly placed and badly designed. Two of the locations are so remote that new players, with low mount speeds (if indeed they even have mounts) will never get there and experienced player simply won’t bother as it takes so long for critical mass to be reached. This makes spawn rates lamentably slow. The upshot is that few bother to do their 3 dragons a day and those few spend their entire time camped out in the starter area landing zone. Meanwhile the dragons sit, like glorious turds untouched by players in their remote zones. My characters have got all the dragon achievements in Southern Elsweyr, none have got them all in Northern Elsweyr despite it having been out for longer and having had 2 months of special events cantered around dragon killing.

In contrast Southern Elsweyr dragons are conveniently placed, and spawn very frequently and attract more than enough players to make them fun to do.

As far as the Soul Bind attack goes, it’s offensive not because it’s so powerful, or because it’s unusual and hard to counter (especially for new players with fewer skills), but because no one in the game explains it. If the dragon daily quest giver had an optional dialogue sequence where they explained to the player exactly how dangerous the dragons’ attacks were and that they would have to purge themselves, that would be fine. Failing that the death recap should be specifically clear about exactly what killed you and how to counter it. Inquisitive newer/less experienced players would be rewarded for curiosity (rather than being punished for ignorance). Nothing is more counter productive and demoralising (and, sadly more typically ZOS) than being repeatedly one-shot by attacks that are never explained.

TL:DR Southern Elsweyr is where you go for top dragon action.

Another annoying thing about Soul Tear is that it persists after the dragon dies. It really should go away like how adds should die with their boss.

And speaking of unexplained one-shots, the strafe attack still doesn’t have a telegraph. Sure, it’s more immersive to have to watch the dragon, which you should learn to do quickly, but every other ground-based attack in this game has a warning area. How are we supposed to joke about standing in red when there’s no red to speak of? It just seems very inconsistent.

doomette

RD065 wrote: »

Also I expect many who start a new character want to do their quests in order so they get out of Elsweyr and find the hooded one.

Plus Dolmen's in Alik'r, the circuit is just too easy.

This isn’t really an issue I have, because I just go straight from the adeptorium to wherever I need to go to get the guild skill lines and the main quest. My problem, when I’m on a brand spanking new character on the EU side, I always fall for that, “oh, let’s join in on this nearby dragon fight, then I’m spending the next 500 hours (give or take) fighting that stupid lizard with just the first quest rewards, no potions, and like 2 soul gems. And while it takes a painfully long time, which I never seem to remember beforehand, it sure has helped my reaction times because I really don’t want to have to rez at the wayshrine.
I will say this: I love all the templars so much during dragon fights when I’m not on one of mine. When I have just three skills and white, stat-less gear and no potions, those cleanses are just the best thing ever.

FierceSam

virtus753 wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

But what happened? Alik'r Dolmens too good in comparison? Where did people go for their farming?

If you want to go dragon farming then Southern Elsweyr is the place to go.

Northern Elsweyr dragons are terribly placed and badly designed. Two of the locations are so remote that new players, with low mount speeds (if indeed they even have mounts) will never get there and experienced player simply won’t bother as it takes so long for critical mass to be reached. This makes spawn rates lamentably slow. The upshot is that few bother to do their 3 dragons a day and those few spend their entire time camped out in the starter area landing zone. Meanwhile the dragons sit, like glorious turds untouched by players in their remote zones. My characters have got all the dragon achievements in Southern Elsweyr, none have got them all in Northern Elsweyr despite it having been out for longer and having had 2 months of special events cantered around dragon killing.

In contrast Southern Elsweyr dragons are conveniently placed, and spawn very frequently and attract more than enough players to make them fun to do.

As far as the Soul Bind attack goes, it’s offensive not because it’s so powerful, or because it’s unusual and hard to counter (especially for new players with fewer skills), but because no one in the game explains it. If the dragon daily quest giver had an optional dialogue sequence where they explained to the player exactly how dangerous the dragons’ attacks were and that they would have to purge themselves, that would be fine. Failing that the death recap should be specifically clear about exactly what killed you and how to counter it. Inquisitive newer/less experienced players would be rewarded for curiosity (rather than being punished for ignorance). Nothing is more counter productive and demoralising (and, sadly more typically ZOS) than being repeatedly one-shot by attacks that are never explained.

TL:DR Southern Elsweyr is where you go for top dragon action.

Another annoying thing about Soul Tear is that it persists after the dragon dies. It really should go away like how adds should die with their boss.

And speaking of unexplained one-shots, the strafe attack still doesn’t have a telegraph. Sure, it’s more immersive to have to watch the dragon, which you should learn to do quickly, but every other ground-based attack in this game has a warning area. How are we supposed to joke about standing in red when there’s no red to speak of? It just seems very inconsistent.

Hmm like dragons ever having reliable damage indicators was a thing. At least now they have some.

I think we need to face the fact that dragons were last year’s thing and will receive the same level of ongoing care and attention that Summerset’s geysers have (ie none). They’ve served their purpose, had their update (in the U24 Dragonhold update) and now will be left to thrive or fester depending on where they land. No one significant at ZOS is championing dragons any more.

All we can do is hope that whatever comes next in Greymoor has learned the lessons of the dragons.

doomette

FierceSam wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

But what happened? Alik'r Dolmens too good in comparison? Where did people go for their farming?

If you want to go dragon farming then Southern Elsweyr is the place to go.

Northern Elsweyr dragons are terribly placed and badly designed. Two of the locations are so remote that new players, with low mount speeds (if indeed they even have mounts) will never get there and experienced player simply won’t bother as it takes so long for critical mass to be reached. This makes spawn rates lamentably slow. The upshot is that few bother to do their 3 dragons a day and those few spend their entire time camped out in the starter area landing zone. Meanwhile the dragons sit, like glorious turds untouched by players in their remote zones. My characters have got all the dragon achievements in Southern Elsweyr, none have got them all in Northern Elsweyr despite it having been out for longer and having had 2 months of special events cantered around dragon killing.

In contrast Southern Elsweyr dragons are conveniently placed, and spawn very frequently and attract more than enough players to make them fun to do.

As far as the Soul Bind attack goes, it’s offensive not because it’s so powerful, or because it’s unusual and hard to counter (especially for new players with fewer skills), but because no one in the game explains it. If the dragon daily quest giver had an optional dialogue sequence where they explained to the player exactly how dangerous the dragons’ attacks were and that they would have to purge themselves, that would be fine. Failing that the death recap should be specifically clear about exactly what killed you and how to counter it. Inquisitive newer/less experienced players would be rewarded for curiosity (rather than being punished for ignorance). Nothing is more counter productive and demoralising (and, sadly more typically ZOS) than being repeatedly one-shot by attacks that are never explained.

TL:DR Southern Elsweyr is where you go for top dragon action.

Another annoying thing about Soul Tear is that it persists after the dragon dies. It really should go away like how adds should die with their boss.

And speaking of unexplained one-shots, the strafe attack still doesn’t have a telegraph. Sure, it’s more immersive to have to watch the dragon, which you should learn to do quickly, but every other ground-based attack in this game has a warning area. How are we supposed to joke about standing in red when there’s no red to speak of? It just seems very inconsistent.

Hmm like dragons ever having reliable damage indicators was a thing. At least now they have some.

I think we need to face the fact that dragons were last year’s thing and will receive the same level of ongoing care and attention that Summerset’s geysers have (ie none). They’ve served their purpose, had their update (in the U24 Dragonhold update) and now will be left to thrive or fester depending on where they land. No one significant at ZOS is championing dragons any more.

All we can do is hope that whatever comes next in Greymoor has learned the lessons of the dragons.

But don’t the geysers scale to number of players involved? That at least helps with their longevity, and doesn’t screw over people who got the chapter well after the crowd have departed. I feel bad for the players who still need the NE dragons for motif chapters, achievements, whatever, at least on XBox EU.

arun_rajputb16_ESO

Go do the dragons between 3pm and 9pm UTC. There are plenty of people doing them.

However, dying three or four times is frustrating.

Tigerseye

RD065 wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

Rittings wrote: »

It's pretty apparent now that dragons are harder to kill since so few are now doing them... they were fine when you had 20 people killing them at once... but now you're lucky if you have another person helping you 2-man it... and that makes the quests almost impossible to kill 3 - at least if you are a daytime player only.

Certainly, that is the case now in Northern Elsweyr, on PC EU.

Also, people will do the N/W dragon, but leave all the others...

Frost one also gets left far more than the others do, for obvious reasons.

Southern Elsweyr is better, for now, but I guess that will die eventually, too.

I do the N/W one. Its just closer to where I'm usually at. But when I do and I don't do them all the time there seems to be a fair amount of people (I did my last one 3 days ago) like 20-30.

Yeah, depending on the time of day/night there are normally enough at N/W, but dragon hunting is very slow, if you have to wait for the N/W one to spawn 3 times, every day.

BoraxFlux

sionIV wrote: »

I've managed to solo a few of them, but they aren't worth it time wise.

Current ones? I'd love to see a video of that. Curious how others can pull something like that off.

Personally, I like the difficulty of the dragons a lot. There's nothing wrong to ask for help in Zone-chat, same happens for Elsweyr overland bosses. The Northern Dragon is much more accessible and accumulates more players faster then the other two locations. If something needs to be changed it is the players incentive for Northern Elsweyr, not the difficulty of the dragons imho.

The dailies do not require different locations, just three dragons killed. So all the more power to players that want to sit out the Northern Dragon spawn time.

There are always some that want to get there prizes faster, an aggroed dragon symbol on the map tends to get players attention, trick is to keep up that symbol long enough for other players to arrive.
I have one tank and a swift NB with Troll King set & Vigor who both can do a decent first dance with a dragon.
No guarantee for other players to show up, but then again calls for arms don't always get the result you want, there always will be another time.

Southern Elsweyr has more incentive for players, the already mentioned accessibility of the dragons.and perhaps because Dragonguard HQ Quests that have an HQ upgrade tier?



(Trying to solo a dragon with a tank at a witching hour & very unimpressive attack damage. Adds were...well...adding up :P, badly in need of some DDs.)

Inerar

I think dragons shoul be strong as they're now. Shouldn't be easy, they're legendary...

IMO the best solution is adding a long time achievement with a cool reward. Just like slayer achievements but with a better reward. Like this: Kill 5000 or 10000 dragon and get an awesome statue. If we had that, then guilds may organise dragon hunt events and other players around also get benefits.

relentless_turnip

I actually wanted to try solo a dragon when it was quiet enough... I came very close a few weeks ago I got it to half health. They have a lot of one shot mechanics though. I think they're fine, I think some mobs should remain intimidating. There isn't much overland group content as most world bosses can be soloed.

sionIV

BoraxFlux wrote: »

sionIV wrote: »

I've managed to solo a few of them, but they aren't worth it time wise.

Current ones? I'd love to see a video of that. Curious how others can pull something like that off.

Personally, I like the difficulty of the dragons a lot. There's nothing wrong to ask for help in Zone-chat, same happens for Elsweyr overland bosses. The Northern Dragon is much more accessible and accumulates more players faster then the other two locations. If something needs to be changed it is the players incentive for Northern Elsweyr, not the difficulty of the dragons imho.

The dailies do not require different locations, just three dragons killed. So all the more power to players that want to sit out the Northern Dragon spawn time.

There are always some that want to get there prizes faster, an aggroed dragon symbol on the map tends to get players attention, trick is to keep up that symbol long enough for other players to arrive.
I have one tank and a swift NB with Troll King set & Vigor who both can do a decent first dance with a dragon.
No guarantee for other players to show up, but then again calls for arms don't always get the result you want, there always will be another time.

Southern Elsweyr has more incentive for players, the already mentioned accessibility of the dragons.and perhaps because Dragonguard HQ Quests that have an HQ upgrade tier?



(Trying to solo a dragon with a tank at a witching hour & very unimpressive attack damage. Adds were...well...adding up :P, badly in need of some DDs.)

It's not very difficult, just takes a long time. I play a Warden Frost Tank, so my self healing is pretty strong and most of my damage is ranged.

Imperial Warden

5/5 Julianos
5/5 Shalk
2/2 Lord Warden (ran Iceheart before the nerf)

30k Health (minor toughness)
32k Magicka
16k Stamina

45.4% Spell Critical
3000 Spell Damage (buffed)

1. Block the bite or you'll die.
2. Keep your distance so you won't get any stacks.
3. Don't stand in circles.
4. AoE down the adds or you'll get overrun.

The main issue is keeping your focus/attention for those 20+ minutes. If you forget to block a bite, you'll have to start all over again.

DaveMoeDee

I know nothing about the dragon attacks. This is the first time I am hearing about soul tear, though I don't know what it does.

Raudgrani

BoraxFlux wrote: »

sionIV wrote: »

I've managed to solo a few of them, but they aren't worth it time wise.

Current ones? I'd love to see a video of that. Curious how others can pull something like that off.

Personally, I like the difficulty of the dragons a lot. There's nothing wrong to ask for help in Zone-chat, same happens for Elsweyr overland bosses. The Northern Dragon is much more accessible and accumulates more players faster then the other two locations. If something needs to be changed it is the players incentive for Northern Elsweyr, not the difficulty of the dragons imho.

The dailies do not require different locations, just three dragons killed. So all the more power to players that want to sit out the Northern Dragon spawn time.

There are always some that want to get there prizes faster, an aggroed dragon symbol on the map tends to get players attention, trick is to keep up that symbol long enough for other players to arrive.
I have one tank and a swift NB with Troll King set & Vigor who both can do a decent first dance with a dragon.
No guarantee for other players to show up, but then again calls for arms don't always get the result you want, there always will be another time.

Southern Elsweyr has more incentive for players, the already mentioned accessibility of the dragons.and perhaps because Dragonguard HQ Quests that have an HQ upgrade tier?



(Trying to solo a dragon with a tank at a witching hour & very unimpressive attack damage. Adds were...well...adding up :P, badly in need of some DDs.)

Brings back memories, of when I used to solo Kvatch arena daily on my templar tank, killing everything basically just using Blazing Shield. This game used to be so diverse, but there's less and less room for such odd practices now. A bit sad to be fair.

FierceSam

doomette wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

But what happened? Alik'r Dolmens too good in comparison? Where did people go for their farming?

If you want to go dragon farming then Southern Elsweyr is the place to go.

Northern Elsweyr dragons are terribly placed and badly designed. Two of the locations are so remote that new players, with low mount speeds (if indeed they even have mounts) will never get there and experienced player simply won’t bother as it takes so long for critical mass to be reached. This makes spawn rates lamentably slow. The upshot is that few bother to do their 3 dragons a day and those few spend their entire time camped out in the starter area landing zone. Meanwhile the dragons sit, like glorious turds untouched by players in their remote zones. My characters have got all the dragon achievements in Southern Elsweyr, none have got them all in Northern Elsweyr despite it having been out for longer and having had 2 months of special events cantered around dragon killing.

In contrast Southern Elsweyr dragons are conveniently placed, and spawn very frequently and attract more than enough players to make them fun to do.

As far as the Soul Bind attack goes, it’s offensive not because it’s so powerful, or because it’s unusual and hard to counter (especially for new players with fewer skills), but because no one in the game explains it. If the dragon daily quest giver had an optional dialogue sequence where they explained to the player exactly how dangerous the dragons’ attacks were and that they would have to purge themselves, that would be fine. Failing that the death recap should be specifically clear about exactly what killed you and how to counter it. Inquisitive newer/less experienced players would be rewarded for curiosity (rather than being punished for ignorance). Nothing is more counter productive and demoralising (and, sadly more typically ZOS) than being repeatedly one-shot by attacks that are never explained.

TL:DR Southern Elsweyr is where you go for top dragon action.

Another annoying thing about Soul Tear is that it persists after the dragon dies. It really should go away like how adds should die with their boss.

And speaking of unexplained one-shots, the strafe attack still doesn’t have a telegraph. Sure, it’s more immersive to have to watch the dragon, which you should learn to do quickly, but every other ground-based attack in this game has a warning area. How are we supposed to joke about standing in red when there’s no red to speak of? It just seems very inconsistent.

Hmm like dragons ever having reliable damage indicators was a thing. At least now they have some.

I think we need to face the fact that dragons were last year’s thing and will receive the same level of ongoing care and attention that Summerset’s geysers have (ie none). They’ve served their purpose, had their update (in the U24 Dragonhold update) and now will be left to thrive or fester depending on where they land. No one significant at ZOS is championing dragons any more.

All we can do is hope that whatever comes next in Greymoor has learned the lessons of the dragons.

But don’t the geysers scale to number of players involved? That at least helps with their longevity, and doesn’t screw over people who got the chapter well after the crowd have departed. I feel bad for the players who still need the NE dragons for motif chapters, achievements, whatever, at least on XBox EU.

Geysers, like dolmens, scale to the number and level of players by adjusting the number, nature and quality of the opponents. This isn’t something you can do with dragons. They are what they are. If there aren’t enough players the dragon ain’t going down.

One more nail in the coffin of the Elsweyr dragons.