Warden a mess in No CP PvP

CaffeinatedMayhem

This may be moved to the PvP forums, but here is a rant for the devs:

I'd like to hear from the devs exactly how you expect me to play a magicka Warden in NO CP PvP.

Unkillable tank? Can do, but I hit like a wet noodle.
Healer? Can do, but I hate healing, and don't play grouped very much.

I prefer to play as solo DPS.

How do you, the devs, expect me to 1v1 anyone, much less 1v2+?

Do I get stun/CC skills? One I can cast on myself to disable the person who attacks me? Maybe one that's instant cast single target? Fear? No. You know who gets stunned by Arctic Blast? People seeing it for the first time. Gripping shards stop who exactly? Not stam, that's for sure.

Do I get a heal that can take my health from 1% to full in a single pull? Even non-class? No. I have to keep up HoTs that gankers love to blast right through while I'm being trolled by their tank partner.

Do I get a heavy hit skill? Why yes, I get one(1)! Guess how many times a player's health bar visibly drops after landing shalk.... never, or only if I can manage it right after pulling an ult... but they've usually streaked away by then. Same goes for Ice Comet. The only skill I have that can kill reliably is Cliff Diver, and only after applying off-balance. Stam players don't run more than 7m away in 1v1. (or they're hiding inside a wall, or cloak out as soon as I come after them)

Do I get sets that make spell damage stacking easy? (Warriors Fury, Deadly Strike) No. I can get massive spell damage for 10 seconds after proccing Balorgh. Do I get a skill that is basically infinite AoE? Do I get a super fast getaway skill or a jump CC or a get out of anything skill that can only be countered with a pot? Do I get ANYTHING besides tiny HoTs, a single big damage burst that is ridiculously hard to land against stam players/ bunnies, and a ranged not really hard hitting but at least applies a debuff skill? Oh, maybe an execute? Or gap closer with super powered damage? How about 6 seconds of god mode plus damage? I can get crit damage, which in No CP is ok... but again, NO CP. Wasting a set on crit is only good if you're grouped.

Devs, what exactly am I supposed to do with this solo magden build? Throw it in the trash? Because that's all it's good for.

ESO_Nightingale

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

This may be moved to the PvP forums, but here is a rant for the devs:

I'd like to hear from the devs exactly how you expect me to play a magicka Warden in NO CP PvP.

Unkillable tank? Can do, but I hit like a wet noodle.
Healer? Can do, but I hate healing, and don't play grouped very much.

I prefer to play as solo DPS.

How do you, the devs, expect me to 1v1 anyone, much less 1v2+?

Do I get stun/CC skills? One I can cast on myself to disable the person who attacks me? Maybe one that's instant cast single target? Fear? No. You know who gets stunned by Arctic Blast? People seeing it for the first time. Gripping shards stop who exactly? Not stam, that's for sure.

Do I get a heal that can take my health from 1% to full in a single pull? Even non-class? No. I have to keep up HoTs that gankers love to blast right through while I'm being trolled by their tank partner.

Do I get a heavy hit skill? Why yes, I get one(1)! Guess how many times a player's health bar visibly drops after landing shalk.... never, or only if I can manage it right after pulling an ult... but they've usually streaked away by then. Same goes for Ice Comet. The only skill I have that can kill reliably is Cliff Diver, and only after applying off-balance. Stam players don't run more than 7m away in 1v1. (or they're hidding inside a wall, or cloak out as soon as I come after them)

Do I get sets that make spell damage stacking easy? (Warriors Fury, Deadly Strike) No. I can get massive spell damage for 10 seconds after proccing Balorgh. Do I get a skill that is basically infinite AoE? Do I get a super fast getaway skill or a jump CC or a get out of anything skill that can only be countered with a pot? Do I get ANYTHING besides tiny HoTs, a single big damage burst that is ridiculously hard to land against stam players/ bunnies, and a ranged not really hard hitting but at least applies a debuff skill? Oh, maybe an execute? Or gap closer with super powered damage? How about 6 seconds of god mode plus damage? I can get crit damage, which in No CP is ok... but again, NO CP. Wasting a set on crit is only good if you're grouped.

Devs, what exactly am I supposed to do with this solo magden build? Throw it in the trash? Because that's all it's good for.

The class is in a playable state right now. But we lack a good offensive stun that isn't flame clench. The issue is that the class just doesn't feel like it's ever been completed from either a thematic or gameplay perspective. Most of its balancing has involved raw damage buffs which is not the only way it should be taken forward in the future. As while it made the class do better, it didn't give them the identity or kinds of skills they need.

CaffeinatedMayhem

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The class is in a playable state right now. But we lack a good offensive stun that isn't flame clench. The issue is that the class just doesn't feel like it's ever been completed from either a thematic or gameplay perspective. Most of its balancing has involved raw damage buffs which is not the only way it should be taken forward in the future. As while it made the class do better, it didn't give them the identity or kinds of skills they need.

Even PvE magden has issues. My main DPS is magden, but I still struggle with vMA due to low damage, lack of CC, and lack of good heals. My hand issues aren't getting better so having to work 2x as hard on a Warden to get the same damage as a pet Sorc isn't helping. Kind wish I didn't hate pets, but I hate pets. No bear for me either.

Warden was OP, especially in PvP when it debuted almost 3!!!! years ago. Since the first set of nerfs Warden has been the bottom for DPS, and only recently got into a good spot in tanking/healing. DPS is passable, but there are good reasons no one plays magden. You *can* get damage out of them, but it's difficult. Much easier to just spam Dizzy or Snipe.

ESO_Nightingale

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

The class is in a playable state right now. But we lack a good offensive stun that isn't flame clench. The issue is that the class just doesn't feel like it's ever been completed from either a thematic or gameplay perspective. Most of its balancing has involved raw damage buffs which is not the only way it should be taken forward in the future. As while it made the class do better, it didn't give them the identity or kinds of skills they need.

Even PvE magden has issues. My main DPS is magden, but I still struggle with vMA due to low damage, lack of CC, and lack of good heals. My hand issues aren't getting better so having to work 2x as hard on a Warden to get the same damage as a pet Sorc isn't helping. Kind wish I didn't hate pets, but I hate pets. No bear for me either.

Warden was OP, especially in PvP when it debuted almost 3!!!! years ago. Since the first set of nerfs Warden has been the bottom for DPS, and only recently got into a good spot in tanking/healing. DPS is passable, but there are good reasons no one plays magden. You *can* get damage out of them, but it's difficult. Much easier to just spam Dizzy or Snipe.

They also lack the themes that make them fun. It's why i suspect that not too many people play them. Sorry about your hand. All of my vMA runs have been done on magden and it was really tough for me. But they are seen as one of the better vma classes.

CaffeinatedMayhem

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

They also lack the themes that make them fun. It's why i suspect that not too many people play them. Sorry about your hand. All of my vMA runs have been done on magden and it was really tough for me. But they are seen as one of the better vma classes.

Yeah, I have completed vMA but I can only do 1 stage per day at most. Usually end up waiting a few weeks in between stages because of frustration with gamepad ui/my potato computer too.

magden is ok in vMA - but again, it requires more work than a 1 bar petsorc, and you do have to be good with shalk.

Iskiab

I like my MagWarden but focus more on healing just because it’s most effective. I can pump out a lot of damage but struggle solo and feels like I can’t kill anyone, just survive really well.

It’s missing the tools you get from being a stam class: strong spammable (dizzy) and execute (executioner).

I know it sounds like common sense, but it’s the destro and mage guild skills that needs work imo so mag can have complete tool kits.

ESO_Nightingale

Iskiab wrote: »

I like my MagWarden but focus more on healing just because it’s most effective. I can pump out a lot of damage but struggle solo and feels like I can’t kill anyone, just survive really well.

It’s missing the tools you get from being a stam class: strong spammable (dizzy) and execute (executioner).

I know it sounds like common sense, but it’s the destro and mage guild skills that needs work imo so mag can have complete tool kits.

I'd argue it doesn't need an execute. If it's burst combo is powerful enough which i feel it's missing a key part of, namely a stun skill that assists in it's burst. Spammable point is fair enough. Dive needs improvements with a speed boost or reduction back to pre summerset, damage type change and quality of life fixes to it's unique effects.

I feel that executes are misinterpreted as being required. While they are extremely helpful, Magdk has done fine without one because of their burst potential.

brandonv516

This is what I see from many Magdens these days (and a good MagDK or two):

ESO_Nightingale

brandonv516 wrote: »

This is what I see from many Magdens these days (and a good MagDK or two):

Yeah we are assist bots in bgs.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Iskiab wrote: »

I like my MagWarden but focus more on healing just because it’s most effective. I can pump out a lot of damage but struggle solo and feels like I can’t kill anyone, just survive really well.

It’s missing the tools you get from being a stam class: strong spammable (dizzy) and execute (executioner).

I know it sounds like common sense, but it’s the destro and mage guild skills that needs work imo so mag can have complete tool kits.

Warden shows the deficiencies of the magicka tool kit the most because we lack the utilities of other classes. An execute probably isn’t necessary, but an effective CC or a guaranteed burst self heal (esp for PvP) or a Forward Momentum/phantasmal escape definitely are.

fred4

For what it's worth, my magden build variations are here:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=201654
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=205586
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=205870

I only play in CP and only occasionally, but I can't believe things are as bad as you say.

IMO magden is about magicka stacking. Once you get that to 50K+, Dampen is your main defense (in CP at least) and your various heals work wonders. Trellis, in particular, is a cheap spammable heal. Not that strong, but works well with a large shield.

I played build variation 1 for the longest time. The best stats, but it suffers from the usual warden flaws, e.g. no CC and no execute. An unfinished build that is typically unable to finish decent people.

Variation 2 uses the bear and Flame Clench for a more duelling focused build.

Variation 3 is based on people I sometimes run into and what I imagine they run. Master Shock Staff is pretty obscene. Every attack is AOE and high power. Yeah, the vamp stun will be nerfed and that's a big deal, but I always imagined this build would be the one to run in BGs.

These builds have in the range of 12K to 15K shields in CP. Nightblades can't get through that, but it takes patience to manage your buffs and sustain until you try to catch them in your ult.

I don't enjoy magden gameplay. I find stamina playstyles or magplar, with it's gap closer, burst heal and execute, much more dynamic and exciting. Perhaps that's where you're coming from as well? Warden is very rotation focused. You keep up your defenses and lash out with AOE, that's about it.

CaffeinatedMayhem

fred4 wrote: »

For what it's worth, my magden build variations are here:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=201654
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=205586
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=205870

I only play in CP and only occasionally, but I can't believe things are as bad as you say.

IMO magden is about magicka stacking. Once you get that to 50K+.

Ok, I’ll stop you there. Why don’t you step into No CP before being ridiculous.

Lughlongarm

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

For what it's worth, my magden build variations are here:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=201654
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=205586
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=205870

I only play in CP and only occasionally, but I can't believe things are as bad as you say.

IMO magden is about magicka stacking. Once you get that to 50K+.

Ok, I’ll stop you there. Why don’t you step into No CP before being ridiculous.

@fred4 Actually bothered to post 3 builds with explanation and this is your feedback? All the above builds could be easily twiked toward no CP.

I'm doing just fine on Warden in both BG and cyrodiil no CP, not same setups as @fred4 recommended, but they look very strong as well.

And yes, I also agree Warden CC capabilities could use some modifications after the vemp stun nerf+ off-balance nerf.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Huh. Yeah, let me know how running 5 light and 50k mag works out in Cyro. Solo. Against a group of 4. PC/NA.

I do “just fine” as well, if you’re on PC/NA you should know my build. That doesn’t mean Warden as a class is “fine” or that the class doesn’t have serious shortcomings.

fred4

nvm

CaffeinatedMayhem

@fred4 Again, walk into NO CP now, today. Sorry dude, you’re the one insisting a CP build will be fine in NO CP.

Edit: regardless of your personal beliefs, if other classes can 1vX with magicka (DK, Templar) why should Warden be content to die?

fred4

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

@fred4 Again, walk into NO CP now, today. Sorry dude, you’re the one insisting a CP build will be fine in NO CP.

So what is it that you're saying? That you can't build for shields, forced to go heavy, therefore no damage?

Edit: regardless of your personal beliefs, if other classes can 1vX with magicka (DK, Templar) why should Warden be content to die?

Class identity?!

I'm only half kidding, you know. I suppose the problem with magden is, I'm not sure what it truly excels at that another class can't do better. Cause otherwise that would be balance of sorts. Also, as a 1vXer I don't think you're ZOS main demographic. The cynic in me suspects magden and, perhaps, magcro are the new dumb classes optimised for laggy Cyrodiil, where AOE and blunt force goes a long way.

Iskiab

Fred’s builds look fine for CP. Easily adapted for no-CP, just add bloodspawn.

It’s still hard, for me at least, to take people out solo. It’s stalemate galore 1v1 until I get impatient and die, or in BGs assist other players and get the last hit.

I don’t have much experience so am a MagWarden noob, but I line up my burst and Invig drain combo someone... 20% health and they heal up and get away. The delayed damage thing is great for burst, but it’s not like my stamWarden where I can do immediately heavy execute damage once someone’s at 20% health, or have a strong spammable like dizzy to whittle people down.

CaffeinatedMayhem

fred4 wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

@fred4 Again, walk into NO CP now, today. Sorry dude, you’re the one insisting a CP build will be fine in NO CP.

So what is it that you're saying? That you can't build for shields, forced to go heavy, therefore no damage?

Dude, you yourself admit you've never set foot in No CP, and not recently played. In case you haven't noticed, Combat changes frquently in ESO. Also, I can't tell crap about those builds since you don't provide armor information, and 2 of them appear to be stamina.

So, in a discussion aimed at NO CP CYRODIIL SOLO MAGICKA WARDEN, your comment applies to "Warden."
If you're so certain your will rock NO CP CYRO, step on in.

As for the rest, wow, maybe learn to read the discussion instead of trying to show off, k?

kringled_1

Caff, first of all fred's builds are all magicka. Necropotence/Crafty Alfiq/Ancient Grace do not speak to stamina. You need to hover over the armor in the editor to see it.
Second, while I don't play no-CP, I will freely concede that I experience some of the issues you do in CP. I don't run my magden to run solo; small groups (2-4) is just fine for me.
But you lost me when you say you don't have enough healing for vMA (and I don't normally slot CC for vMA). Living trellis is 80% of all I needed there, occasionally supplemented with growth, and shimmering for archer heavy rounds. My magden runs were quite smooth considering it is by far my lowest pve magicka dps.

fred4

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

@fred4 Again, walk into NO CP now, today. Sorry dude, you’re the one insisting a CP build will be fine in NO CP.

So what is it that you're saying? That you can't build for shields, forced to go heavy, therefore no damage?

Dude, you yourself admit you've never set foot in No CP, and not recently played. In case you haven't noticed, Combat changes frquently in ESO. Also, I can't tell crap about those builds since you don't provide armor information, and 2 of them appear to be stamina.

Gets links to UESP and writes that. Is your computer broken? What sort of device are you reading this on? Is UESP down? Nah, you're just back into full agressive mode, not even having looked at my builds. Lovely. Those were not meant to be answers, by the way, and my question was genuine. In what way is no CP so radically different? If you can't articulate your points to people in this forum, what chance will you ever have of convincing ZOS?

I played my warden for a while when the class came out. I played a few BGs back then. I play it once a month and update the build a little.

fred4

kringled_1 wrote: »

You need to hover over the armor in the editor to see it.

Ah, OK, yeah, that's probably the issue.

But you lost me when you say you don't have enough healing for vMA.

Oops. I overlooked this. I was actually giving Caffeinated the benefit of the doubt, but:

low damage, lack of CC, and lack of good heals

No way. Lack of CC isn't even relevant there, except maybe against the Bone Colossus raising fiends in the last arena.

Lack of good heals is just preposterous. The class oozes healing everywhere. Every cast of birds heals you, incidentally one of the reasons I run that skill when others don't. There is so much passive and semi-passive healing in the class. I'm starting to think this comes down more to warden not suiting the OPs playstyle. I, for one, have always liked stacked HOTs in favor of burst heals. Indeed on magblade - my main - I am forced to work with that, perhaps that's why I'm fine with it. Living Trellis, though, is both and is actually more magicka efficient than Enchanted Growth.

Iskiab

No-CP makes a big difference because you’re squishier. Lower health pool, plus the damage reduction CPs > the damage increased CPs, plus lower healing amounts in no-CP.

1000 damage
Increased 20% = 1200
Decreased 20% = 9600

As a warden in CP you can face tank 3 people in Necro, BTB and BS, in no-CP you have to kite at 2.

Wardens are tanky AF, it’s the killing good players that’s the issue.

boomcat

i dont know, i have NO issues in No-CP pvp on my stamden.. i have alot better sustain then most classes, i have my betty. setting people off balance with birds and knock them down, while have shalks charging up.. when people breaksfree they alrdy starts to be low on stam.

i have no stun on my Stamcro either and that toon is pretty strong in No-CP also :P so i cant see a problem?

Tolino

@CaffeinatedMayhem
I would say Magden is in noCP even better, because the opponents are less tanky!
Magden themselves are very tanky with the 100%minor Protection, Minor Touhgness + great healing with living trellis and Major Mending! You can easy survive with 5light Max. Magicka in noCp!

The main issu Magden has is lack of viabel Stun + constant dmg pressure.

Qbiken

What magden lacks for solo play it overcompensates in group play. Magden is an absolute beast as soon as it's put in context of smallscale and very few specs can actually compete with it in that context.

If you wanna buff magden for solo play you need to tune them down for group play.

Valdek

Qbiken wrote: »

What magden lacks for solo play it overcompensates in group play. Magden is an absolute beast as soon as it's put in context of smallscale and very few specs can actually compete with it in that context.

If you wanna buff magden for solo play you need to tune them down for group play.

Perhaps. However, some may argue that necros have (especially with next patch) group utility that's just as good if not better, and are one of the strongest solo classes if I'm not mistaken. Magplars can do both pretty well too but they are known to be currently OP.

brandonv516

Qbiken wrote: »

What magden lacks for solo play it overcompensates in group play. Magden is an absolute beast as soon as it's put in context of smallscale and very few specs can actually compete with it in that context.

If you wanna buff magden for solo play you need to tune them down for group play.

Like the polar opposite of NB lol.

Iskiab

brandonv516 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

What magden lacks for solo play it overcompensates in group play. Magden is an absolute beast as soon as it's put in context of smallscale and very few specs can actually compete with it in that context.

If you wanna buff magden for solo play you need to tune them down for group play.

Like the polar opposite of NB lol.

Somewhat, I like Zerg surfing on my MagWarden better. Imagine a dark cloak magblade with strong self healing.

When people say magblade is good solo they mean cloak is good for avoiding and jumping people. Zaan works equally well on a MagWarden but you’re never going to catch people with their buffs down.

Overall MagWarden is stronger solo then magblade, they just don’t have cloak. Tankier then magplar, but no burst heal but that doesn’t really matter if you stack enough hots.