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would the alliance war be better without campaign scoring? 30 day or otherwise?

Wing
Wing
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not saying the rewards should go away, would love to see that system kept as a personal 30 day so we could still get all them juicy rewards based on personal (rather then faction) participation and effort.

but everyone knows that targets, fighting and the like, change based on the scoring.

when first place is just too far gone, everyone kind of ignores that faction. people flip empty keeps and grab undefended scrolls for points.

the pvp this game was based off of and (in theory) improved upon was the three way combat from DaoC. however that game had FAR less emphasis on a campaign scoring system, less and harder to capture keeps, no "emperor" system and the stand in for scrolls were MUCH harder to steal (had more hoops to jump through to get to them and then a server wide announcement went out when you STARTED picking up the scroll and then it took you a couple minutes (3-5 cannot remember off the top of my head) to actually pick it up.

there was a much greater emphasis on actual pvp and battle lines would end up being very wide, similar to some of the large drawn out fights we get in the fields between outposts and keeps. zergs and ball groups would exist but with such wide battle lines and so many people and groups of various sizes you didn't really get the "one blob ult dumps another blob" we get now.


what I would personally love to see


-is the campaign overall score removed and changed to become personal / per character.
-less AP value placed on siege defense / offense ticks and resource capture.
-FAR MORE AP value for kills, kill participation, damage done, damage taken, and healing. (though while I would love to see damage done / taken / healing / etc receive just flat ap gain I realize this would have to be VERY small to avoid people just standing off in the corner *pew* *pew* ing with bows)

more focus on the PvP part of PvP
ESO player since beta.
full time subscriber.
PC NA
( ^_^ )

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  • KillsAllElves
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    That scoring system enables productivity. With out it i think players would feel theres no incentive to play.

    Me personally im there to gank players or nuke groups on my sorcerer and tea bag.... The scoring means nothing to me as im content with doing what i do.

    Edited by KillsAllElves on February 10, 2020 11:36AM
  • Wing
    Wing
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    . With out it i think players would feel theres no incentive to play.

    that's very interesting, i legit wonder how many people would stop playing cyro if the main focus was in fact pvp and not a number.
    ESO player since beta.
    full time subscriber.
    PC NA
    ( ^_^ )

    You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods You shall be as gods -Xenogears
    DK one trick
  • redgreensunset
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    Wing wrote: »
    . With out it i think players would feel theres no incentive to play.

    that's very interesting, i legit wonder how many people would stop playing cyro if the main focus was in fact pvp and not a number.

    You mean if focus was solely on killing other players for no larger purpose than... killing them? Well to me that would instantly make Cyro as meaningless and IC and I'd probably never go back except perhaps to get the pve achievements. Maybe.
  • VaranisArano
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    Wing wrote: »
    . With out it i think players would feel theres no incentive to play.

    that's very interesting, i legit wonder how many people would stop playing cyro if the main focus was in fact pvp and not a number.

    There are different levels of PVP.
    There's the directly fighting other players level - that's the sort of level that Battlegrounds fills pretty well.
    There's also the strategy level - which objectives do you focus when and how, working as a group, guild or faction, in order to defeat the enemy on a longer scale than just a single battle.

    Campaign score is how the latter is (imperfectly) measured.

    Personally, I love the large scale PVP battles of Cyrodiil. You know what drives those battles? The Campaign Score, because that determines the objectives we need in order to win.

    You know what fights the "I just wanna fight other players" creates in Cyrodiil?
    The stalemate at Alessia Bridge
    That habit EP has of running up to lick the door at Bleakers, go "Oh, shoot, we forgot the siege weapons" and get chased back to Chalman where DC gets to take the mine before EP chases them back to Bleakers, ad nauseum.
    Ball groups farming PUGs in out-of-the-way keeps

    Those fights can be fun, don't get me wrong. But those are the sort of fights you get when nobody involved cares about the score - they just want to kill each other for a while.
  • technohic
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    I'd rather they just make the scoring more about fighting players. Keeps could be about bonuses to that for the non-emp keeps. Emp keeps for Emp. Scrolls for buffs they provide.

    And I think it should scale to where zerging another player nets almost nothing, fighting even numbers means a lot more. Right now its more like what time is one faction weak to where everyone just stacks on them and gets rewarded. Then payback comes later from people who were not even there, to people who were not even there.
  • Ranger209
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    I think a good place to start in making PvP more valuable is creating a bonus of double AP for killing players of the faction that is in the lead. This will give some incentive to the 2nd and 3rd place factions to focus the faction in 1st as is AvAvA design intent. It will also give incentive to PvP instead of PvD. Perhaps the team in 1st could also get a 50% AP boost for killing players in the 2nd place faction as well. This again gives incentive for the 1st place team to kill players of the faction that they should most be focusing to maintain their lead.

    I think the score is vital for giving a feel that the 3 banner war is something greater than just the personal satisfaction of singular fights. There is nothing wrong with the personal satisfaction that comes from that, but i like the higher purpose the score provides along with the strategic elements of playing the map. Those things make it more than it would be without them.
  • NBrookus
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    Whatever individual playstyles people prefer, the faction score is kind of necessary in a game more that is supposed to be a 3 faction war. This isn't an arena game.

    I do think the scoring needs an overhaul and the AP for pvdoor is way too high... but I'd MUCH rather they fix CC bugs, performance, and other actual gameplay issues before messing with the scoring.
  • VaranisArano
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    NBrookus wrote: »
    Whatever individual playstyles people prefer, the faction score is kind of necessary in a game more that is supposed to be a 3 faction war. This isn't an arena game.

    I do think the scoring needs an overhaul and the AP for pvdoor is way too high... but I'd MUCH rather they fix CC bugs, performance, and other actual gameplay issues before messing with the scoring.

    The Summerset patch where we had buffed D-ticks did a great job of getting players to rush to defend, so PvDoor was much rarer. It also created gigantic fights that the server can't handle well, so ZOS reverted it.

    So yeah, fix performance, and maybe then we can have nice things. :)
  • Carespanker
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    I wouldn't see the point to do cyro and not have score to give me something to show for at the end of the day tbh... I do however wish pvp had better AP and rewards for actually fighting players and if there was a way to translate that into campaign score it would be a bonus, and ofc, better pvp rewards to support it.
  • Gatdangmayne
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    Personally i feel like the score only encourages zerging and unfun pvp, but i get that some need that score to be interested.

    I agree there should be different scoring though.

    In regards to individual ap -

    More allies=Less Ap

    More enemies=More Ap

    Sitting at the same place=depreciation of Ap amounts

    PvDoor=less Ap

    Killing people=more ap

    Killing people who haven't recently died and who have been earning ap=more ap

    Then, in regards to the alliance score, I'm not sure how to change it to keep the team effort feel but improve actual pvp.

    Maybe something radical, like when someone has emp, and gets dethroned - emp keeps reset to their original faction.

    Or become owned by imperial or daedric npcs, and give NO ap for capture - but the longer the alliance that takes a keep holds it, the ap gains exponentially increase.

    Idk, probably dumb ideas. But right now cyro encourages brain dead lagfest blobs

  • x48rph
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    I think the whole scoring system could definitely use a revamp even if they just added more objectives and stuff. I don't want the alliance score to go away but as it is we have this huge map which we're only reminded of during scroll runs and yet all the fighting and stuff is concentrated to small areas around the keeps and the occasional bottle necks in between them on the map. I would love to see large scale fighting in other parts of the map where terrain and tactics (Not talking about just ulti dumping on the opposing group) could play a large role in the fight.
  • alexoop
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    I think shortening the 30 day campaign to 15 days would make the overall scoring more useful. Very few campaigns in the 30 day have had 1st place decided after 14 days. I think this would also help address the faction lock complaints. 2 weeks to faction lock is a lot easier to deal with than 30 days especially if you’re faction is in last place.

    And better dticks would help deter Pvdoor and lead to more fights I think.
  • Mr_Walker
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    Campaign score is how the latter is (imperfectly) measured.

    Very imperfectly. The second primetime's over, the faction with the largest pop steamrolls everyone else until they get bored of pvdoor, and the populations tend towards some semblance of balance again.

    Of course, by that time they genereally have all 6 scrolls, emp, and everything on the map....
  • Katahdin
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    I agree there should be different scoring though.

    In regards to individual ap -

    More allies=Less Ap

    More enemies=More Ap

    Sitting at the same place=depreciation of Ap amounts

    PvDoor=less Ap

    Killing people=more ap

    Killing people who haven't recently died and who have been earning ap=more ap

    We already have diminishing returns when killing the same people over and over.

    We already have AP bonuses for taking keeps that are defended vs empty ones

    We have AP bonuses for defending keeps based on the length of the fight and how many enemy were there vs how many defenders.

    Sitting in one place usually nets you much less Ap that if you actively go out and attack other keeps/resources/players and defend keeps. If you sat in the same keep all day, you won't make much AP at all.

    So sounds like everything you mentioned is already covered.

    Beta tester November 2013
  • Ackwalan
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    Without a campaign score, the keeps would just be PvD, with no reason to hold them. Eventually it would end up being nothing but a zerg fight at the bridge. Die and just get back there, no reason to even look at the rest of the map. Well, each alliance may take something close to the bridge to make the run shorter, but that would be the extent of the strategy.
  • Cirantille
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    I think the only time I cared about campaign scores was when I first joined PvP.

    I was hyped to see what will happen when my alliance wins.

    A box of purple items and a few bit more k of gold......... :joy:

    Rftw are already deconstruction material

    And end campaign gold items are irrelevant your alliance score but your leaderboard score.

    If I get spell strategist, those sell, rest again deconstruct

  • fastolfv_ESO
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    this is the first thing i have ever seen on this board in 6 years that wasnt absolutely idiotic, so +1 from me on this. Honestly why cant they do the same as daoc get a leaderboard for different things like most kills each class, longest kill streak etc and at the end of 30 days reward these people on the top 10 and just completely remove the score. We dont need more ap gains with keeps giving 7k for doing absolutely nothing but pveing give more rewards for actually killing other players and *gasp* pvping
  • Joy_Division
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    I don;t even look at it and couldn't tell you who won the last campaign.
  • danthemann5
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    Would football be better without the scoring?

    The score is what makes it competitive. The competition is what makes it interesting. It's the same reason faction locks are necessary.
    ZeniMax has no obligation to correct any errors or defects in the Services.

    Greetings! We've closed this thread due to its non-constructive nature.

    "You know you don't have to be here right?" - ZOS_RichLambert
  • Delphinia
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    At one time the score had a little more meaning than it does today.

    AvAvA used to just mean Alliance.. now, people see it more like Alliance Points per individual.

    If it truly is a 3 faction war, then you'd think the map and scores would mean more.
    As it is, faction lock doesn't even help resolve many of the issues... we still see factions (friends) working together.
    Example, player in faction 1 sees a friend in faction 2, group up, attack faction 3...
    As long as players are able to recognize "friendly" enemies, they will more often than not, just help each other out.
    Which is fine, if that's what this idea of AvAvA has morphed into.. and honestly, if you can't beat them, join them I suppose...

    There are so many changes that I'd love to see and if we were to go back to what this type of pvp was once intended, one of those welcome changes would be to eradicate the time wasting chase around the inside of keeps once the keep is no longer under attack, flags are taken and it's repaired.

    Much like the scroll temples do not play host to enemy factions once one of the temple tri keeps is fully defended or retaken to one's own alliance, the temple gates come down and enemies are "removed".

    In keeps that have been reclaimed, or defended, by the true owners, we often see enemies running laps around inside.
    While this is great for them, if they're successful, giving them a nice little nook to farm AP... it's just a time waster for those who actually own the keep. The keep is no longer contested, it's just about farming AP..

    So again, the map or overall faction score is overlooked.
    The keep owners are now expected to defend their home keep indefinitely ...
    even after already "flipping" both flags, ceasing the offensive siege, and repairing...essentially, the keep is now theirs.

    This would change certain "styles" of game play, or AP farming, but if the true alliance owners of that keep are able to completely "flip" the flags, get it repaired successfully and cease the siege on it.. maybe they've earned the defense and should be rewarded by being allowed to fully reclaim their home keep... ie. safely use it to port in and out of without fear of an enemy group bombing the transitus.

    Perhaps once it is no longer under attack, it could close itself off just like the temples do.
    Once the flags are taken, the siege is ended, and walls/doors are repaired, the nukes come down.. Eliminating any remaining enemies in the keep.. Just like the scroll temples.

    The faction has won the defense, there’s no more reason to be running amok inside a keep they already own. Everyone can move on to other map objectives and focus on scoring...
    just a thought.
    Edited by Delphinia on February 26, 2020 4:40PM
  • Soul_Demon
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    Mr_Walker wrote: »
    Campaign score is how the latter is (imperfectly) measured.

    Very imperfectly. The second primetime's over, the faction with the largest pop steamrolls everyone else until they get bored of pvdoor, and the populations tend towards some semblance of balance again.

    Of course, by that time they genereally have all 6 scrolls, emp, and everything on the map....

    Well, that is what was eluded to in the first post- there is a deeper level of PvP that goes to alliance coordination to deal with population issues- you shift population if you are coordinated enough to cover those times...its part of the long game of winning. Its a lot like chess- you can play with timer to speed things up and force errors, or you can slow play the board (same with camp) to utilize a longer and tougher strategy to try and get a win . Not only that....if a faction refuses to adapt to this and work as a team, they will not do well. Then all that is left is to complain about it when there is indeed a way to address it in a tactical way. Or....you dont. Its entirely up to the population how they deal with the game and the ways its played.
  • idk
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    That scoring system enables productivity. With out it i think players would feel theres no incentive to play.

    Pretty much this.

    The idea reminded me of a youth sports phenomenon where they do not keep score. It sends a dangerous message to the kids that they really do not need to try to get rewarded with a participation trophy or ribbon. It just diminishes the value and even the purpose of competing.

    We do not need to change the game to participation ribbons as our reward. That just rings of entitlement.
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