Bring back power creep

SirLeeMinion

Do you remember looking forward to updates? Remember the days when you anticipated 30 more CP with each update? Remember the DLC that brought new gear, gear that was better than what you already had? Remember attempting some content that was just too hard for you, failing at it, but thinking. “I bet I'll be able to beat this in another three months.”? I miss those days.

Late last spring, or maybe it was summer, I was working through vet Banished Cells 2, trying to solo the final boss before the next patch dropped. After dying a few times, it became clear that I just wasn't up to the task that night. It was late, too late, so I ported out knowing it had been my last chance before the update dropped. At the time, I thought, "I'll probably never solo vet BC2." I never have. Today I was vividly reminded of that feeling as a guildie was trying to get a vMA clear before Iceheart gets the axe.

That feeling of looking forward to the next update... it's gone, replaced by the dread of having to grind new gear that will somehow be just a little bit worse than what you had been using. It's not just Iceheart, though that's the current egregious example. It's Bosmer stealth and matriarch damage, it's toothless werewolves and deconning Bone Pirate Tatters. It's characters that now do 10% less damage with optimized builds and parse food than they did a year ago in a build and with the food I actually used for vet trials.

Bring pack power creep. Put a feeling of anticipation, rather than dread, back into the updates. The current slow fade of character strength feels a lot like aging; it's not fun.

#WeDissent

Juhasow

If You want easy mode in everything go play overland content. Nerfs are as needed as buffs for the health of the game. If both are reasonable of course. And lowering power creep was reasonable decision. How ZoS managed to do it...well that's another story.

Jaraal

Most people understood thet the CP curve was one of diminishing results, and that 30 extra CP had a negligible effect on combat performance. However, I agree that it was something fun to look forward to, and ZOS has done absolutely nothing to replace that feeling of vertical progression we got from adding to our CP pool.

idk

That 30 CP added to the cap every 3 months was an extremely small part of power creep. Miniscule and hardly noticeable.

Power creep since Morrowind (and even before then) has been the result of changes Zos has made very quarter and year outside of CP. Everything from adding stronger sets to changes the have made in skills. Think about when Zos added vMA weapons and the dStaff was so lack luster because WoE was not very good. Zos buffed WoE so the vMA dStaff would be worth using. That is just one example of the true source of power creep.

Heck, I laughed at that 30 CP cap increase since the diminishing returns made it a virtual joke.

Juhasow

Jaraal wrote: »

Most people understood thet the CP curve was one of diminishing results, and that 30 extra CP had a negligible effect on combat performance. However, I agree that it was something fun to look forward to, and ZOS has done absolutely nothing to replace that feeling of vertical progression we got from adding to our CP pool.

Well problem is that within few years of adding that 30 CP per update we went from 1st cap that was 501 to 810 and that is noticable difference. You may say "it's just 30 CP per update" but that means it's be 120 CP per year , 240 CP per 2 years and so on. At certain point You need to say stop to it. ZoS said stop at 810.

Skorro

Juhasow wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Most people understood thet the CP curve was one of diminishing results, and that 30 extra CP had a negligible effect on combat performance. However, I agree that it was something fun to look forward to, and ZOS has done absolutely nothing to replace that feeling of vertical progression we got from adding to our CP pool.

Well problem is that within few years of adding that 30 CP per update we went from 1st cap that was 501 to 810 and that is noticable difference. You may say "it's just 30 CP per update" but that means it's be 120 CP per year , 240 CP per 2 years and so on. At certain point You need to say stop to it. ZoS said stop at 810.

And then left it and refuses to say anything about when they will replace it...

Even Skyrim has better progression with legendary levelling, how can you just sit stagnant on an MMO?

Runefang

All I can say I agree. It’s made worse by the fact they buffed then nerfed overall damage so we went backwards by a fair amount.

Artemiisia

before they made cp160 as max gear, people were complaining about having to re-craft or grind for new gear every new update. so they fixed that with the cp160 lock, but what people didnt think about was they needed a different way to get people to buy new dlc, chapters. So what they did was nerf older gear, and making the new zones BiS gear, to keep people spending money. This has been the recipe ever since this has happened.

I dont see that as a bad thing, since if no money comes into the game, the game stops coming with so many updates in the future.

People that thinks their gear will be the BiS forever, really should figure out thats not how mmos work

FierceSam

I disagree.

I get better every 3 months because I’m becoming a better player, not because I don’t improve and have to rely on ZOS doing everything for me.

Power creep just benefits those of us who’ve been playing for a while. It progressively (and massively) disadvantages the majority who haven’t by forcing developers to design content for a tiny number of ever more specced up top level characters.

It does nothing to improve players and is only a crutch for the incompetent and useless, who need ever increasing stats in order to succeed.

FierceSam

Skorro wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Most people understood thet the CP curve was one of diminishing results, and that 30 extra CP had a negligible effect on combat performance. However, I agree that it was something fun to look forward to, and ZOS has done absolutely nothing to replace that feeling of vertical progression we got from adding to our CP pool.

Well problem is that within few years of adding that 30 CP per update we went from 1st cap that was 501 to 810 and that is noticable difference. You may say "it's just 30 CP per update" but that means it's be 120 CP per year , 240 CP per 2 years and so on. At certain point You need to say stop to it. ZoS said stop at 810.

And then left it and refuses to say anything about when they will replace it...

Even Skyrim has better progression with legendary levelling, how can you just sit stagnant on an MMO?

I don’t think you can equate levelling in a single player game with levelling in an MMO.

In a single game it makes sense to have zoned levels and to increase the player’s stats throughout until they have finished the game. The whole point of the game is your rise to ‘god’ level and the game is over and done with in a couple of weeks if you’re any good. In an MMO like ESO none of that is true.

You actively don’t want to have a catastrophic gulf between new and old players that increases each patch. And the player objective isn’t to complete the game. You’re trying to create a system where there is some built in progression (your character will get better over time through stats, skillpoints etc), but ultimately progression is about player skill not stats and numbers.

So you have a ceiling that’s high enough that it rewards long term play, but not so high that it provide a disincentive for new players. After reaching that level though, it’s all about the player.

Progression is less about CP and more about what content I can defeat and, after that, the achievements associated with doing it really well. It’s all about the player, not the game.

The message I’m taking away from ZOS is that they wanted to fix the gap between new player and top stat players by capping CP, they know it’s something they want to deal with, but they’ll get to it after they’ve dealt with performance and balance. That seems a wholly sensible idea. Right now they haven’t got anything concrete to tell us.

Juhasow

Skorro wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Most people understood thet the CP curve was one of diminishing results, and that 30 extra CP had a negligible effect on combat performance. However, I agree that it was something fun to look forward to, and ZOS has done absolutely nothing to replace that feeling of vertical progression we got from adding to our CP pool.

Well problem is that within few years of adding that 30 CP per update we went from 1st cap that was 501 to 810 and that is noticable difference. You may say "it's just 30 CP per update" but that means it's be 120 CP per year , 240 CP per 2 years and so on. At certain point You need to say stop to it. ZoS said stop at 810.

And then left it and refuses to say anything about when they will replace it...

Even Skyrim has better progression with legendary levelling, how can you just sit stagnant on an MMO?

it's not like they'll come up with a new system right away. CPs were already fleshed out when game was released. And it took them over a year to polish that system before releasing it. Now they need to create something new or fundamentally change current system. Dont expect for it to take few weeks. It's complicated and complex procces. I wouldnt be suprised if they would not release it up to the middle of 2021 especially that combat team have lot of things to deal with considering how many things they've messed up already. Making any drastic changes to progression system could cause avalanche of further issues but making barely any changes would just keep bringing old issues back.

The real question though is how can You feel that getting 30 CP to spend per update is not stagnant ? Especially if You have already more then new cap value. Adding 30 CP per update was actually the most stagnant type of progression idea I've seen. Ironically it feels better for me now when that fake progression was halted.

Shanehere

Though I agree that nerfs and buffs are needed, I do not think that they should be so severe that it causes players to have to completely relearn their class or have to respec or rebuild a specific way to have any success. In PvP Dual wield or SnB is not as impactful as the current dizzy swing/off balance meta, you can still run it but most stam players are aware that if you want maximum effectiveness you're running 2h right now.

In my opinion I think ZOS realizes that their player demographic is primarily casual, and further increasing the CP cap would continue to make it incredibly daunting to players. Getting to level 50 for the first time and learning of the CP system makes most players incredibly confused and sigh at the fact that their character is no way near max and they need to grind 810 CP points to make their character reach their maximum potential.

I wouldn't mind them getting rid of the CP system personally, but I think for long-time players I do agree that there should be an incentive to keep playing and get a feeling of progression aside from getting the best possible gear.

Alienoutlaw

at 810cp there is not really anything left you can squeaze out of the current system, why add more cp? why waste 25 points to get an extra 1% increase that you would barely notice after a nerf anyway

Jaraal

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

at 810cp there is not really anything left you can squeaze out of the current system, why add more cp? why waste 25 points to get an extra 1% increase that you would barely notice after a nerf anyway

Because you can spec some of those points into a branch of a tree that is underutilized in your build.


The vast majority of people specialize.... I doubt there are many folks who have 90 points in each tree and 22.5 points in each skill. There is always something you can raise effectively that can help you in some way.

Alienoutlaw

Jaraal wrote: »

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

at 810cp there is not really anything left you can squeaze out of the current system, why add more cp? why waste 25 points to get an extra 1% increase that you would barely notice after a nerf anyway

Because you can spec some of those points into a branch of a tree that is underutilized in your build.


The vast majority of people specialize.... I doubt there are many folks who have 90 points in each tree and 22.5 points in each skill. There is always something you can raise effectively that can help you in some way.

anything that helps in most cases is already being used and optimised. CP system is flawed and needs to be scrapped adding to it solves nothing

The Uninvited

CP was supposed to be 10 per veteran level when introduced, which would make most of us vet 81 by now. This seems like a strange number to me. Just cap it at 999 which would roughly be the equivalent of vet 100.

MellowMagic

Personally I don't care about the cp anymore I just want the max level to be a clean number. 1000, 900, 850. Idk but 810 bugs me.

Artemiisia

MellowMagic wrote: »

Personally I don't care about the cp anymore I just want the max level to be a clean number. 1000, 900, 850. Idk but 810 bugs me.

810 will properly BUG your more after seeing this

Shantu

I agree with the OP in that the CP cap and the onslaught of nerfs have created a feeling of stagnancy and dread about things to come. That's not good for any game.

Jaraal

MellowMagic wrote: »

Personally I don't care about the cp anymore I just want the max level to be a clean number. 1000, 900, 850. Idk but 810 bugs me.

The number has to be divisible by the nine skill trees.

thadjarvis

There’s many power creeps available to all players. The following are examples (there are other avenues too that are not mentioned)
1) CP (play/grind)
2) filling out passives (play/hunt grind)
3) Gear (farm grind)
4) group coordination (human social skills)
5) skill usage such as rotation (eg dummy practice)
6) mechanics handling (content experience)

If you’ve topped out on 1-3 ZoS tries to give #3 on patch releases. Though 4-6 is where the lion share of progressive power comes from.

If you’re at all like me (can’t easily no death everything or parse 85k) you got lots of runway that you’ll get just by playing non-trivial difficulty content (subjective to each player what that difficulty is). If you’re not experiencing increased power over time, you might not be doing much content at your difficulty limit in which that power would be gained.

If you are one of those that can parse 85k and don’t die, have you tried teifecta’s (dungeon and trials), unchained, short handed HM’s, etc?

Grandesdar

SirLeeMinion wrote: »

Remember the DLC that brought new gear, gear that was better than what you already had?

Some people already complain that "crafting bag makes the game P2W," and you're asking for better gear behind paywall of DLCs.

Bekkael

I agree with you, OP. I hate how much weaker all my characters feel over time. Everything was great for Morrowind, and Summerset too, I was riding high and loving the game. But from Murkmire, or Nerfmire as many call it, things have been on a downward spiral, and all the changes in 2019 have made me hate and despise every single update. I also dread them, as it just seems more problems get added and very little gets repaired.

I can remember when I had no lag and very few gameplay issues, but then the summer Elsweyr chapter dropped, and Xbox now has all the same problems that other platforms have been struggling with for much longer.

The only thing that I vaguely look forward to is the next summer chapter in June for more quests and story, but I also dread how the game will change again for the worse, since that has been the only constant in the game now for a while.

Loss of any kind of progression for otherwise maxed out characters is just one of numerous things I dislike. If ESO is a typical example of MMO life, then I definitely hate the genre. I haven’t pre-purchased Greymoor, and I think I am canceling my longtime sub for next month. There’s just no joy left with all the miserable changes, and all story quests done.

I feel like I’m in a bad codependent relationship with this game. It keeps treating me worse all the time, yet I keep coming back for more. Why? 🙈 ESO, I really need to quit you! Why is it so hard?🥺

thadjarvis

2019 dungeon sets did not increase general power. The sets provided unique power in special situations. The trial sets did provide general versatile power but that seems to be expected of ZoS to include that albeit behind a paywall. Crafted sets (NMA) gave power to play for free players.

Can’t judge this year yet as we only have knowledge of 1 of 3 major sets releases and they haven’t been fully tested yet.

Neoauspex

I just want the max CP to get to a nice round number like 900. Going back to 750 would also be fine. I'm to OCD for 810.

The Uninvited

Neoauspex wrote: »

I just want the max CP to get to a nice round number like 900. Going back to 750 would also be fine. I'm to OCD for 810.

Me too, I guess

barney2525

FierceSam wrote: »

I disagree.

I get better every 3 months because I’m becoming a better player, not because I don’t improve and have to rely on ZOS doing everything for me.

Power creep just benefits those of us who’ve been playing for a while. It progressively (and massively) disadvantages the majority who haven’t by forcing developers to design content for a tiny number of ever more specced up top level characters.

It does nothing to improve players and is only a crutch for the incompetent and useless, who need ever increasing stats in order to succeed.

Not me.

I am determined to remain the crappy player that I am.

After all, If I improve then I won't have anything to bit.... er ... complain about .... on Forums