Worst broken lore?

DMuehlhausen

So question...how did they write back in Sai if you sacrificed him during the original Main Quest? I'm sure most people sacrificed the Emperor since he was the obvious choice since he was in part to blame for the problems and Molag Bal invading. Yet you could have sacrificed any of the companions so I'm sure some choose Sai a long with Lyris. Which I guess begs another question...how are they just writing back in Lyris in Greymoor for those that sacrificed her?

Did the writers just say ah EFF it after moving to 1 Tamriel?

OG_Kaveman

Plenty of people have asked this question, maybe using the search bar?

CassandraGemini

Aw, too bad. I was kind of thinking the topic would lead to a thread about Bosmer and Argonians and their racial passives. I'm always hoping that maybe, if enough of those keep showing up, at some point ZOS will actually reconsider.

But, well, since it is not, what OG_Kaveman said is true. I've seen this question asked more than once here, and while I can see where you're coming from, It's not like this is an ESO problem alone. I've seen single player games, where a sequel used one possible ending from the previous installment, while the others (that might have seen certain people, or even the protagonist die, for instance) stayed unconsidered. Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Mankind Divided come to mind.

It's certainly weird if you made a choice that doesn't really work with what the game establishes as "canon" (which, in this case, I would wager is the death of the Emperor, as you said yourself), but there is really nothing to be done about it. Best to just accept the canon and try to ignore that it clashes with choices some of your characters might have made.

TelvanniWizard

Lyris dies always in my games. So far, it worked well, regarding lore. Varen appeared in Orsinium, and Sai in Elsweyr. But now, my immersion will be gone

CassandraGemini

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Lyris dies always in my games. So far, it worked well, regarding lore. Varen appeared in Orsinium, and Sai in Elsweyr. But now, my immersion will be gone

Damn, I forgot about Varen in Orsinium! So much for "canon"

VaranisArano

Varen has a different lines if you sacrificed him.

ZOS handwaved it with Sai. Essentially he's back, but he doesn't recall how. They'll probably do the same for Lyris. I call it "revived by the power of nostalgia".

RaddlemanNumber7

Sai's reappearance after being sacrificed to Akatosh has all the signs of divine intervention. Gods can do that sort of thing without needing to explain themselves. There are God(s) in TES. There is no Lore problem with Sai's reappearance at all.

CassandraGemini

VaranisArano wrote: »

Varen has a different lines if you sacrificed him.

That's interesting. I always sacrifice Varen (well, 'always' as in "the two times I actually completed the main story line"), so I didn't even know that. What happens if you play Orsinium with a character that hasn't advanced the main quest that far? Maybe I should just go and find out, but does anyone happen to know?

ghastley

The death (of whichever companion) is required to fill the Soul Gem that is the Amulet of Kings' stone. The soul is released by its use against Molag Bal, and is free to return after that.

I only see a problem if you found a way to get that far through the quest and skip out without completing it. Then they're trapped in the unused Amulet.

Enodoc

ghastley wrote: »

The death (of whichever companion) is required to fill the Soul Gem that is the Amulet of Kings' stone. The soul is released by its use against Molag Bal, and is free to return after that.

I only see a problem if you found a way to get that far through the quest and skip out without completing it. Then they're trapped in the unused Amulet.

That's a good theory actually. Being a soul gem that's bound to the will of Akatosh, he could theoretically do whatever he wants with the soul that was used to power it, including just returning it to its host.

DMuehlhausen

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Sai's reappearance after being sacrificed to Akatosh has all the signs of divine intervention. Gods can do that sort of thing without needing to explain themselves. There are God(s) in TES. There is no Lore problem with Sai's reappearance at all.

That's all fine and good, but don't ya think Sai would mention something about you killing him, or being a little peeved about it? Or there should be a text you apologize for it, but it's good he was returned or something. This just picks up like nothing happened.

Ilsabet

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Sai's reappearance after being sacrificed to Akatosh has all the signs of divine intervention. Gods can do that sort of thing without needing to explain themselves. There are God(s) in TES. There is no Lore problem with Sai's reappearance at all.

That's all fine and good, but don't ya think Sai would mention something about you killing him, or being a little peeved about it? Or there should be a text you apologize for it, but it's good he was returned or something. This just picks up like nothing happened.

Keep in mind that all of the available Companions wanted to be chosen, and Sai considered it an honor to give his life for the Emperor and the cause of saving the world. So he probably wouldn't be peeved or expect you to apologize for it. They probably could have gone a little farther with having him and/or the Vestige react to it in general, but like Varanis said ZOS decided to just handwave the whole thing.

RaddlemanNumber7

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Sai's reappearance after being sacrificed to Akatosh has all the signs of divine intervention. Gods can do that sort of thing without needing to explain themselves. There are God(s) in TES. There is no Lore problem with Sai's reappearance at all.

That's all fine and good, but don't ya think Sai would mention something about you killing him, or being a little peeved about it? Or there should be a text you apologize for it, but it's good he was returned or something. This just picks up like nothing happened.

Sai was 100% in favour of himself making the ultimate sacrifice, and not Lyris or the Prophet. In order to atone for his many failings, as he put it. Although the Vestige acceded to Sai's demands that he be the one sacrificed it was not the Vestige who wielded the Amulet of Kings. It was Abnur Tharn who cast the spell which killed Sai.

Siohwenoeht

I think it has less to do with anything lorewise and more the, now, non-linear story telling. They are sticking to the notion that all of this occurs in the same in game year. So a new character may start Elsweyr or the prologue first, without having completed the main quest and therefore Sai, Lyris or Varen would not have been sacrificed yet.

This puts veteran players in a bind, and they did drop the storytelling ball in this case. Also, the fact that even if you complete the main quest and sacrifice Sai after Elsweyr, he is still happily alive in the dragonguard sanctum.

Plenty of plot holes still, but they did this with new players, not veterans in mind.

PrinceShroob

I wrote the following a while back, so I'll reiterate it here:

I believe that Meridia has brought Sai back in an attempt to ingratiate herself with the vestige as part of a larger plot to make the Vestige her champion and replace the Golden Knight.

At the end of the main quest in the base game, Meridia sends you to experience the other alliance's questlines, ostensibly to "fully comprehend what is at stake." However, based on a letter found in Betnikh, the events of the three alliances' questlines happen roughly contemporaneously. Meridia does not merely alter where we ended up when we left Coldharbour, creating a domino effect whereby we become a trusted ally of the alliance's leader, but deliberately inserts us into significant events.

We know that Meridia is searching for a new champion. It is my belief that Meridia intends to make us, the Vestige, into her new champion, and, as a token of her grace, she has shaped events to make us a great hero. Further, she has brought back a deceased friend from our past to make us feel indebted to her.

We know from Molag Bal's quests in Oblivion and Skyrim, and Sheogorath's treatment of Dyus in the Shivering Isles, that Daedric Princes hold power over life and death, and can bring mortals back from the dead or prevent them from dying.

This theory is sound enough based on recent content additions that have placed Meridia in a negative light (for example, the Depths of Malatar dungeon) and would be workable if Meridia is a villain in future content, as it would only require an additional line of dialogue from Meridia or another character explaining what she has done if you did not sacrifice the Prophet (the Prophet dies offscreen by the end of Orsinium if you did not sacrifice him).

***

Sai doesn't know how he's back, which doesn't necessarily mean that there's no good explanation.

But your title made me think this was a thread about the worst lore in the series, in which case my vote would go to the "A Star is Born" quest in Tribunal.

Dusk_Coven

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

I think it has less to do with anything lorewise and more the, now, non-linear story telling. They are sticking to the notion that all of this occurs in the same in game year. So a new character may start Elsweyr or the prologue first, without having completed the main quest and therefore Sai, Lyris or Varen would not have been sacrificed yet.

Yes but they didn't need to recycle any of the Companions. Just because Abnur Tharn is there doesn't mean the rest of the gang has to be involved in any way. Just write up some new characters?
No I think it's a thinly-veiled ploy to try to bring back "player favourites" … but in doing so they cheapened one of the few "choices matter" moments in the game.

Parasaurolophus

The first broken lore that I saw was the lack of imga in Valenwood. And so far I have not seen a single source in the game that would explain their absence to me.

The second is a quest on Summerset, where we must find the priestess of Meridia to speak with her. Oh my God! I could just teleport to Hollocity and talk to her in her temple. But alas, the game completely ignores this.

Well, the third is the appearance of Windhelm. No, he never rebuilt. Its walls and palace are almost the most ancient buildings of the Nords. But alas, it was decided to make the city a standard set of architecture for the Nords.

newtinmpls

Broken lore...weird lore.

Dunmer are too short. In general the size ranges for each race are too "small" (not enough range, more need to be overlapping).

Morrowind shrank in the wash since TES III.

Argonian legs.

Aristocles22

Argonians and Khajiit have had human-like legs and feet since Oblivion. While I personally prefer those kinds of characters to go shoeless (to take advantage of their claws), it hasn't been that way for a long, long time with these games.

Thevampirenight

I think it can be explained by the way time works in Oblivion when that very important choice happened where you had to pick to sacrifice one of them. The way it might have worked could be that every one of them got used for the Ritual where all three died in different versions of the same event and all three didn't die in different versions of the same event given the nature of time in Oblivion. This also caused all three of them to not be sacrificed since all the different outcomes and choice all came true so all three maybe made it out.
Basically no matter who you choose to sacrifice all three possibilities happened and didn't happen. The prophet we see in Orsinum could be one that did die and was sacrificed but yet there could be one that also exists and still alive somewhere out there in the world. Still alive living as a hermit like Yoda and still regretting his choices. One way Mannimarco escaped from Coldhabour and is causing terror and havoc somewhere or licking his woulds while one might still be trapped in Coldhabour suffering. So its kinda like a dragonbreak but not a dragonbreak.

Something Darien says that is also most interesting.
"This might sound like a strange question. In fact, depending on how you answer it, it is a strange question.
Do you—do you remember me? I'm not talking about here in Summerset. I mean—from someplace else."
If Summerset is the first location you meet Darien, the dialogue will be following:

Not that I can recall. The first time I saw you was when you were wearing your golden armor.
"You don't remember me? I was afraid of that. Meridia told me that time worked differently in Oblivion, but I didn't believe her. What's happened to me hasn't happened to you yet.
That doesn't matter now. What matters is I found you."

Basically if you want to think of it this way Time is Funky it doesn't work like real life time and that explains why they are alive again even if you sacrificed them. So think of it less like divine intervention and more like Time being all screwy. You can even think of this as a lore friend way to explain it. Elder Scrolls is weird like that.

Cundu_Ertur

Worst broken lore is, hands down, 'Bosmer' who currently have more racial bonuses to being guards than to being thieves. Imga ain't the only race missing from Valenwood.

Arunei

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Yes but they didn't need to recycle any of the Companions. Just because Abnur Tharn is there doesn't mean the rest of the gang has to be involved in any way. Just write up some new characters?
No I think it's a thinly-veiled ploy to try to bring back "player favourites" … but in doing so they cheapened one of the few "choices matter" moments in the game.

Pretty much this imo. They didn't have to bring back any of the other Companions for any of these expansions. Bringing back Abnur made sense, so both the player and Abnur himself could get closure after he

vanishes at the end of the MQ with the Amulet of Kings.

But bringing the others back? I don't see any real reason or need behind it other than fanservice, tbh, and like you said it ends up cheapening the decision you have to make near the end of the MQ.

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Argonians and Khajiit have had human-like legs and feet since Oblivion. While I personally prefer those kinds of characters to go shoeless (to take advantage of their claws), it hasn't been that way for a long, long time with these games.

Actually, there are furstocks of Khajiit that still have digitigrade legs. If you look at that one Suthay statue irc the name of, the placement of the ankle and how the legs are shaped make it look a lot like it has digitigrade legs, not plantigrade ones. I also don't think there's any concrete lore that states whether Suthay are 100% one or the other. And seeing as Argonians also have different 'furstocks' (scalestocks?) there could very well be different forms of Argonians that have the digitigrade legs, and we just haven't seen them. Also "will of the Hist" is a thing that exists, so if the Hist wanted it could make ANY Argo have the crazy lizard legs haha.

Tommy_The_Gun

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Worst broken lore is, hands down, 'Bosmer' who currently have more racial bonuses to being guards than to being thieves. Imga ain't the only race missing from Valenwood.

Tbh. I dont know what is more broken. Wood Elves having this weird stealth detection "guard" passive or Argonians that live in a poisonous and toxic swamp not having any poison resistance in the slightest...

Edit:
Forgot to mention. There are numerous quests in ESO in which Argonians say basically: "I survived only because my kind is more resistant and in many cases immune to some poisons"...

Nord_Raseri

When meating up with Sai in the Dragonhold prologue(I think), if he was chosen, you do have a chance to talk to him about it.

Cundu_Ertur

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Worst broken lore is, hands down, 'Bosmer' who currently have more racial bonuses to being guards than to being thieves. Imga ain't the only race missing from Valenwood.

Tbh. I dont know what is more broken. Wood Elves having this weird stealth detection "guard" passive or Argonians that live in a poisonous and toxic swamp not having any poison resistance in the slightest...

Edit:
Forgot to mention. There are numerous quests in ESO in which Argonians say basically: "I survived only because my kind is more resistant and in many cases immune to some poisons"...

True, it is a coin toss over which is worse in some ways, but the 'no poison resist for Argonians' people can at least point to Skyrim (though even there it didn't fit some of the lore). Bosmer have never not been sneaky. Until now. But, yes, Argonians should absolutely have both disease and poison resistance, per the lore.