Shadowy Disguise needs a change

brandonv516

I'd like to see this skill revamped. Many people would like to see it eliminated completely but the reality is that it's a shadow of what it once was.

There are many counters and when they are used, it shuts the skill down essentially making the main defense for Nightblades irrelevant.

My idea could potentially benefit this skill in both PvP and PvE, meaning it might actually be desired by tanks.

And it's pretty simple:

First, remove the guaranteed "first attack will crit" as a tradeoff for a new request. If you feel there is a strong argument for keeping this feature, please speak out. In my opinion, it is not beneficial enough and is holding the class back.

Second, change it so when you are revealed you receive a defensive buff, armor mitigation, or even a heal. I'd be open to anything that will improve survival.

Obviously not every build would come out unscathed by this change (i.e. bombers, Snipers, etc.). Would it kill these builds? Would it make the class overall better going forward? Thoughts please.

DTStormfox

If you want to be an offensive nightblade, use Shadowy Disguise
If you want to be a defensive nightblade, use Dark Cloak

Solved your problem.

brandonv516

DTStormfox wrote: »

If you want to be an offensive nightblade, use Shadowy Disguise
If you want to be a defensive nightblade, use Dark Cloak

Solved your problem.

I realize that this would make Dark Cloak less appealing but the state Shadowy Disguise is in feels doomed.

Syrusthevirus187

Don't rely on cloak as your "main defense"

Solved your problem

Contaminate

You already get a defensive buff on cast due to it being a Shadow line skill.

The problem with Cloak is that it’s entirely useless against a competent player, while newbies think it’s OP because they’ve yet to make attempts to counter it with:

- Literally any AoE
- Detect pots
- Any CC in general



What would actually allow the skill to finally have some balance options would be to make the invisibility guaranteed and unbreakable until it times out or the caster uses an ability.

If you take damage while Cloaked, it would reveal some vfx of your outline but not make you targetable. (Look at League’s handling of stealth to see what I mean)

Keep the guaranteed crit but make it apply just to class abilities or apply an internal cooldown.

Up the cost to something around 5k. It would ideally become a powerful evasion tool and the cost should reflect as much. The low costs currently are necessary due to it being broken by everything under the sun, but guaranteed durations mean a higher resource price.

DoTs would still tick, damage would still be taken from AoEs, you just wouldn’t have Cloak broken instantly like it is now.


TLDR: Make the invisibility last the entire duration regardless of damage taken, let enemies see vfx at your location when you take damage instead, it should cost a lot more, change the crit with a cooldown or make it apply to class abilities only.

brandonv516

Syrusthevirus187 wrote: »

Don't rely on cloak as your "main defense"

Solved your problem

But it is the main defense of the class. That's like telling Sorcs not to rely on shields or pets.

I realize any idea will be unpopular to those that just want it gutted completely.

Freakin_Hytte

Dark cloak is the defensive morph, why not just change that one if you would like a morph to defensive buffs.

Nightblade have already had so many nerfs to their damage that they aren't even close in being competitive with other classes, they are not even competitive concerning burst damage 1v1.
Loosing the crit would equal to throw the class in the trash bin once and for all.
Nightblades need some serious buffs to their skills to even reach the same level as other classes.

First of remove or greatly reduce the cast time on incap, its embarrassing that everyone who haven't crashed can roll dodge out of it with ease even if they are stunned or feared.

Increase the speed of grim focus and give us minor berserk, if other classes can have it up 24/7 why can't we even be able to get it anymore?

In the Hemorrhage passive, include minor prophecy.

These are just 3 suggestions that would make life a little bit more enjoyable for nightblades.

brandonv516

Contaminate wrote: »

You already get a defensive buff on cast due to it being a Shadow line skill.

The problem with Cloak is that it’s entirely useless against a competent player, while newbies think it’s OP because they’ve yet to make attempts to counter it with:

- Literally any AoE
- Detect pots
- Any CC in general

I'll address this part because the rest is over complicating things (in my opinion).

The defensive buff provided by passives is not unique. In fact Nightblade has the shortest duration of this buff.

The second paragraph is spot on. That's why it needs to be improved.

Gilvoth

DTStormfox wrote: »

If you want to be an offensive nightblade, use Shadowy Disguise
If you want to be a defensive nightblade, use Dark Cloak

Solved your problem.

this ^
and also, right now invisibility is fine and doesn't need any changes.

brandonv516

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Dark cloak is the defensive morph, why not just change that one if you would like a morph to defensive buffs.

Nightblade have already had so many nerfs to their damage that they aren't even close in being competitive with other classes, they are not even competitive concerning burst damage 1v1.
Loosing the crit would equal to throw the class in the trash bin once and for all.
Nightblades need some serious buffs to their skills to even reach the same level as other classes.

First of remove or greatly reduce the cast time on incap, its embarrassing that everyone who haven't crashed can roll dodge out of it with ease even if they are stunned or feared.

Increase the speed of grim focus and give us minor berserk, if other classes can have it up 24/7 why can't we even be able to get it anymore?

In the Hemorrhage passive, include minor prophecy.

These are just 3 suggestions that would make life a little bit more enjoyable for nightblades.

So you feel the loss of one attack having a guaranteed chance to crit is throwing the entire class in the bin?

While I agree with NB needing other changes and appreciate the input, this topic is specifically about Shadowy Disguise and ways to improve it.

Freakin_Hytte

brandonv516 wrote: »

Freakin_Hytte wrote: »

Dark cloak is the defensive morph, why not just change that one if you would like a morph to defensive buffs.

Nightblade have already had so many nerfs to their damage that they aren't even close in being competitive with other classes, they are not even competitive concerning burst damage 1v1.
Loosing the crit would equal to throw the class in the trash bin once and for all.
Nightblades need some serious buffs to their skills to even reach the same level as other classes.

First of remove or greatly reduce the cast time on incap, its embarrassing that everyone who haven't crashed can roll dodge out of it with ease even if they are stunned or feared.

Increase the speed of grim focus and give us minor berserk, if other classes can have it up 24/7 why can't we even be able to get it anymore?

In the Hemorrhage passive, include minor prophecy.

These are just 3 suggestions that would make life a little bit more enjoyable for nightblades.

So you feel the loss of one attack having a guaranteed chance to crit is throwing the entire class in the bin?

While I agree with NB needing other changes and appreciate the input, this topic is specifically about Shadowy Disguise and ways to improve it.

I mean they are already half way down there at the moment, removing the crit could easily be the one thing that let's them fall to the bottom of the bin. It's one more nerf to a history of nerfs to nightblades burst potential.

I don't think removing the crit would kill bomb blades and snipers, but make them less attractive? Absolutely, especially for snipers who counts on big hits.

Haha sorry about that, I just feel so bad for nightblades now a day that it's easy to go into all the problems the class is having.

Contaminate

brandonv516 wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

You already get a defensive buff on cast due to it being a Shadow line skill.

The problem with Cloak is that it’s entirely useless against a competent player, while newbies think it’s OP because they’ve yet to make attempts to counter it with:

- Literally any AoE
- Detect pots
- Any CC in general

I'll address this part because the rest is over complicating things (in my opinion).

The defensive buff provided by passives is not unique. In fact Nightblade has the shortest duration of this buff.

The second paragraph is spot on. That's why it needs to be improved.

The last part is “in a perfect world...” because I have no confidence at all in ZOS to make those changes and they actually work. That’s why DoTs get suppressed in Cloak, because they never found any way to let someone take damage without breaking their invisibility.

brandonv516

Gilvoth wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

If you want to be an offensive nightblade, use Shadowy Disguise
If you want to be a defensive nightblade, use Dark Cloak

Solved your problem.

this ^
and also, this thread looks alot like a nerf invisibility thread hidden as a buff request.
it doesn't mean its true but it sure looks that way because right now invisibility is fine and doesn't need any changes.

One of us actually mains a Nightblade; the other guy likes Nightblade nerfs.

Shadowy Disguise is far from fine pal.

Iskiab

I said the same thing a while ago. People disagreed with any nerfs at all (surprise surprise) and here we are.

The extra spell damage from cloak passive is garbage. Good riddance. It’s a wash between getting the extra LA and ignoring the passive, and trying to get a buff on one attack.

Acrolas

Morph of Shadow Cloak where, if you fail to successfully gank somebody, it automatically changes your armor into the impenetrable Ancient Dragonguard you probably should have already been wearing.

I mean, so long as we're being wishful...

Bradyfjord

I don't play night blade so I won't speak to the balance of shadowy disguise. But one ability does not a class make. To fix anything I believe you should look at this in relation to the full toolkit, along with all counters in opponents' toolkit.

That said, I do hope the upcoming performance updates help. This is the biggest problem in competitive play currently.

kringled_1

brandonv516 wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

If you want to be an offensive nightblade, use Shadowy Disguise
If you want to be a defensive nightblade, use Dark Cloak

Solved your problem.

this ^
and also, this thread looks alot like a nerf invisibility thread hidden as a buff request.
it doesn't mean its true but it sure looks that way because right now invisibility is fine and doesn't need any changes.

One of us actually mains a Nightblade; the other guy likes Nightblade nerfs.

Shadowy Disguise is far from fine pal.

I don't agree with his opinions about game balance, but Gilvoth definitely mains a nightblade. (EP, I've only encountered him in Kaal).

JAwtunes

Make it a toggle skill. Perma cloakers shouldn't have to press buttons.

MusCanus

What are you talking about? They don't even care to add some kind of indicator to detect pots so you can tell if someone is using one atm. That alone would make the cloak better.
Imaging there was a potion that would prevent using a shield for 15 secs in the 20m radius, and a shield user can't tell if such a pot is up, his shield ability would still cost magicka on use, but the shield wouldn't appear. That's what detect pots are for NBs.

Red_Feather

What I really find unattractive is that you have to keep casting it and casting it does the sound and arm animation every time. It looks so weird seeing players using it to move across an area. I wonder why it doesn't just toggle and remove energy each second. I play warframe at the moment and Ivara's stealth is a toggle that costs energy/second.

MusCanus

Red_Feather wrote: »

What I really find unattractive is that you have to keep casting it and casting it does the sound and arm animation every time. It looks so weird seeing players using it to move across an area. I wonder why it doesn't just toggle and remove energy each second. I play warframe at the moment and Ivara's stealth is a toggle that costs energy/second.

Personally I'd prefer that most abilities such as buffs and other skills with a timer work that way, but that's whole another topic.

Stebarnz

Contaminate wrote: »

You already get a defensive buff on cast due to it being a Shadow line skill.

The problem with Cloak is that it’s entirely useless against a competent player, while newbies think it’s OP because they’ve yet to make attempts to counter it with:

- Literally any AoE
- Detect pots
- Any CC in general



What would actually allow the skill to finally have some balance options would be to make the invisibility guaranteed and unbreakable until it times out or the caster uses an ability.

If you take damage while Cloaked, it would reveal some vfx of your outline but not make you targetable. (Look at League’s handling of stealth to see what I mean)

Keep the guaranteed crit but make it apply just to class abilities or apply an internal cooldown.

Up the cost to something around 5k. It would ideally become a powerful evasion tool and the cost should reflect as much. The low costs currently are necessary due to it being broken by everything under the sun, but guaranteed durations mean a higher resource price.

DoTs would still tick, damage would still be taken from AoEs, you just wouldn’t have Cloak broken instantly like it is now.


TLDR: Make the invisibility last the entire duration regardless of damage taken, let enemies see vfx at your location when you take damage instead, it should cost a lot more, change the crit with a cooldown or make it apply to class abilities only.

If you want this then no attacks can be made while in stealth! You have to wait to be visible again before an attack can happen, keep it as an evasion tool and not an offensive one.

Keep invis deal with low damage, lose invis better balance or more damage.

If cloak is as broke and easy to counter as everyone seems to say it is then why use it or argue for keeping it?

There should be no 1 shot mechanics for trolls to exploit in this game, the reason why NB is in a bad place is because the class attracts trolls and griefers and if enough casuals complain ZOS listens. Case and point, I have spent the majority of this event defending towns for pve questers to use and the number 1 class that's been doing the griefing can you guess??? the number 1 class for hate whispers when they die can you guess???

The focus should be lets make the game as a whole balanced with each class having individuality and different identities, not give my NB perma cloak and insta kills plox so I can pwn noobz and grief all day.

Salvas_Aren

The problem is that this skill is not a form of getting invisible, its more or less a class-specific form of sneaking and breaks too easy.

Sneaking by itself needs a rework and cloaking should be a seperate form of invisibility.

It's perfectly fine that some counters of sneak and cloak overlap, but 100% is not ok.

MusCanus

Stebarnz wrote: »

There should be no 1 shot mechanics for trolls to exploit in this game, the reason why NB is in a bad place is because the class attracts trolls and griefers and if enough casuals complain ZOS listens. Case and point, I have spent the majority of this event defending towns for pve questers to use and the number 1 class that's been doing the griefing can you guess??? the number 1 class for hate whispers when they die can you guess???

The focus should be lets make the game as a whole balanced with each class having individuality and different identities, not give my NB perma cloak and insta kills plox so I can pwn noobz and grief all day.

NB can insta kill casuals in the current state just as easy because they're casuals. And it will be forever this way no matter how hard you nerf it, killing pve'er who has no impen and no clue about pvp will always be easy. And guess what, the more you nerf it the more NB mains will resort to killing noobs as class itself becomes more useless in real pvp.

Stebarnz wrote: »

If cloak is as broke and easy to counter as everyone seems to say it is then why use it or argue for keeping it?

Cause it's a rogue/assassin class, it has a whole skill line called Assassination, assassins attack from stealth, and people pick it as their main because they want to play like one. It's an RPG fantasy game for ***'s sake. How is it so difficult to understand?

ArchMikem

Contaminate wrote: »

TLDR: Make the invisibility last the entire duration regardless of damage taken, let enemies see vfx at your location when you take damage instead, it should cost a lot more, change the crit with a cooldown or make it apply to class abilities only.

I'd be okay with this. It would make Nightblades rethink their use of the skill, but it would still be useful in a way. Though instead of Shadowy Disguise being spammed during a fight to constantly give a NB an advantage, I'd like it if it was purely a defensive skill. Allows a Nightblade to disengage completely if things got too dicey. Make the cast expensive and the invisibility unbreakable, but also give it a cooldown so it can't be reapplied immediately. This would let Nightblades keep their easy out of hard situations but it'd also force us into straight up fights that everyone else wants us to do.

However with a suggested change to Cloak I have another. Revert the change to Piercing Mark so it keeps the player visible during the entire effect's duration. I have absolutely no idea why they gave it a 3 second duration before they can stealth out again. The only reason Nightblades used that skill in the first place was as an Anti-Nightblade role, and it was perfect for that. Really, changing that skill only made people's frustration with Nightblades worse.

Fata1moose

Stamina Nightblade is my favorite class and I have problems with its current state in both PvE and PvP but shadowy disguise isn't the problem. The class is underperforming compared to just about everything else. Class needs buffs to damage and some changes so everything doesn't feel so slow and sluggish. Focus is slow, loses stacks too easily (or fails to stack when getting hits) and is easy to dodge.Then there's veiled strike which is probably among the worst class spamables as is and it's just not fun to weave.

Deathlord92

Shadow disguise should get a buff so should nb in general noobs will always suck let’s be honest what don’t they cry about they would rather cry then get good like most of us had to. Good players will always counter cloak heck my stamblade has camo hunter on my bar majority stamblade I meet never last long against me noobs will continue to cry instead of trying to counter cloak and I bet you anything these are the players you see running in 20 to 30 man Zergs all day lmfao 😂😂😂

MusCanus

ArchMikem wrote: »

I'd be okay with this. It would make Nightblades rethink their use of the skill, but it would still be useful in a way. Though instead of Shadowy Disguise being spammed during a fight to constantly give a NB an advantage, I'd like it if it was purely a defensive skill. Allows a Nightblade to disengage completely if things got too dicey. Make the cast expensive and the invisibility unbreakable, but also give it a cooldown so it can't be reapplied immediately. This would let Nightblades keep their easy out of hard situations but it'd also force us into straight up fights that everyone else wants us to do.

What another ability are you willing to give a cooldown? There is one invisibility ability with a longer duration and a cooldown already, it's called invisibility potion.

Shadowy Disguise with guaranteed invis and a cooldown wouldn't result in straight up fights, just more gank attempts fail -> retreat playstyle.

Everyone keeps thinking that cloak is something so special that gives an unheard of advantage in a fight. Imagine a 100% hp shield for 3 sec that breaks from any aoe, running, dodging, attacking, some abilities like curse, purifying, etc. Some other abilities and potions not only break it but also prevent its use for several seconds. Still sounds OP?

killingspreeb16_ESO

.If cloak is as broke and easy to counter as everyone seems to say it is then why use it or argue for keeping it?

As other mentioned because is the rogue/assassin playstyle,if i want to play a medium armor character with no stealth i can alredy pick another class.

Also invis=low dmg is one of dumbest thing i read in a while.

Templar got healing and utility still doing dmg.

Sorc got shield's and streak,a spammable blink that stun deal dmg still do insane dmg.

DK have nice mitigation,healing and still deal good dmg.

You got the idea,by your logic if stealth/invisibility=low damage then since the other classes got their tool aswell they should deal low dmg.

Cloak is balanced with the amount of counter avaible in the game.

Mr_Walker

JAwtunes wrote: »

Make it a toggle skill. Perma cloakers shouldn't have to press buttons.

I personally think that doesn't go far enough. Whenever a NB goes below 50% health, they automatically turn invisible until they toggle it off, and their next 5 light attacks deal 48000 additional weapon damage.

mb10

DTStormfox wrote: »

If you want to be an offensive nightblade, use Shadowy Disguise
If you want to be a defensive nightblade, use Dark Cloak

Solved your problem.

Lmao you definitely definitely do not play NB in PVP.

That 1k tooltip heal for “defensive nightblade” is absolutely useless in PVP

If it also suppressed DOTs like invisibility does then okay brilliant but in its current state, no way it’s an awful skill