RAT(Race Against Time) vs Elude: Skill Audit

usmguy1234

So, according to zos, elude was too overloaded with snare removal and major expedition, yet RAT has both?

Discuss...

Coppes

Uh, one is a base game skill and one is from an expansion skill line. It’s obvious. $

/s

static_recharge

RAT? You should define your acronyms at least once so people know what you're talking about please.

MashmalloMan

It was overloaded and RAT has both, but in a very balanced way. 2s of immunity and 4s of Major Expedition is good, but it didn't compare to how strong their proposed Elude at the time would of been.

Elude lasts 40s in 7 Medium and can give you permanent major expedition in fights since the major expedition procs off any aoe direct damage. It's clear they meant for this ability to be a fire and forget type of buff, not something you spam.

If you play a class that gets snare removal elsewhere, then casting this once every 36-40s is the easiest and most cost efficent way to get up to 100% major expedition uptime. Top it off with Major Evasion and Elude looks very nice.

The issue with the current meta is most Medium Armor users use BRP DW backbar for Quick/Deadly Cloak so Elude becomes very redundant. The other issue, if you needed snare removal outside your class from 2h, Forward Momentum is very underwhelming and costs you Rally. This would of been okay if it kept the HOT, but thats gone now.

So the comparison is awful. RAT is fine, Elude is fine. It's the context of other abilities/sets in the game.

oXI_Viper_IXo

static_recharge wrote: »

RAT? You should define your acronyms at least once so people know what you're talking about please.

Race Against Time

usmguy1234

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It was overloaded and RAT has both, but in a very balanced way. 2s of immunity and 4s of Major Expedition is good, but it didn't compare to how strong their proposed Elude at the time would of been.

Elude lasts 40s in 7 Medium and can give you permanent major expedition in fights since the major expedition procs off any aoe direct damage. It's clear they meant for this ability to be a fire and forget type of buff, not something you spam.

If you play a class that gets snare removal elsewhere, then casting this once every 36-40s is the easiest and most cost efficent way to get up to 100% major expedition uptime. Top it off with Major Evasion and Elude looks very nice.

The issue with the current meta is most Medium Armor users use BRP DW backbar for Quick/Deadly Cloak so Elude becomes very redundant. The other issue, if you needed snare removal outside your class from 2h, Forward Momentum is very underwhelming and costs you Rally. This would of been okay if it kept the HOT, but thats gone now.

So the comparison is awful. RAT is fine, Elude is fine. It's the context of other abilities/sets in the game.

It's not an awful comparison because it brings to light an obvious imbalance in the game whether it be the root or not. Zos could have easily made the snare reduction component of elude identical to the length of RAT's.

MashmalloMan

usmguy1234 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It was overloaded and RAT has both, but in a very balanced way. 2s of immunity and 4s of Major Expedition is good, but it didn't compare to how strong their proposed Elude at the time would of been.

Elude lasts 40s in 7 Medium and can give you permanent major expedition in fights since the major expedition procs off any aoe direct damage. It's clear they meant for this ability to be a fire and forget type of buff, not something you spam.

If you play a class that gets snare removal elsewhere, then casting this once every 36-40s is the easiest and most cost efficent way to get up to 100% major expedition uptime. Top it off with Major Evasion and Elude looks very nice.

The issue with the current meta is most Medium Armor users use BRP DW backbar for Quick/Deadly Cloak so Elude becomes very redundant. The other issue, if you needed snare removal outside your class from 2h, Forward Momentum is very underwhelming and costs you Rally. This would of been okay if it kept the HOT, but thats gone now.

So the comparison is awful. RAT is fine, Elude is fine. It's the context of other abilities/sets in the game.

It's not an awful comparison because it brings to light an obvious imbalance in the game whether it be the root or not. Zos could have easily made the snare reduction component of elude identical to the length of RAT's.

They're different abilities in function and design. Just because they share some of the same buffs, doesn't mean they should be directly compared.

As I said, Elude is meant as a fire and forget ability because it provides it's buffs for a huge amount of time. For someone interested in Major Expedition and Major Evasion, this ability provides both for 1 cast over 36-40s making it extremely cost effective, especially if you already have a snare removal elsewhere.

Spamming the ability goes completely against the intention of the morph.

RAT is meant to be spammed when needed, because it provides minor force and 4s major expedition, 2s immunity is more than fair to be added here. Especially since this is the only universal option avaialble to Magicka players.

They tried something originally (what you're referring to) and they found it didn't fit their design intent of the morph. So why are we still talking about it? Their comments didn't mean NO ability can have Major Expedition and Snare Removal, they were speaking about the overwhelming power of Elude. It was OP and the current morph at least makes it different from Shuffle, which is meant to be for Snare removal/immunity.

usmguy1234

MashmalloMan wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It was overloaded and RAT has both, but in a very balanced way. 2s of immunity and 4s of Major Expedition is good, but it didn't compare to how strong their proposed Elude at the time would of been.

Elude lasts 40s in 7 Medium and can give you permanent major expedition in fights since the major expedition procs off any aoe direct damage. It's clear they meant for this ability to be a fire and forget type of buff, not something you spam.

If you play a class that gets snare removal elsewhere, then casting this once every 36-40s is the easiest and most cost efficent way to get up to 100% major expedition uptime. Top it off with Major Evasion and Elude looks very nice.

The issue with the current meta is most Medium Armor users use BRP DW backbar for Quick/Deadly Cloak so Elude becomes very redundant. The other issue, if you needed snare removal outside your class from 2h, Forward Momentum is very underwhelming and costs you Rally. This would of been okay if it kept the HOT, but thats gone now.

So the comparison is awful. RAT is fine, Elude is fine. It's the context of other abilities/sets in the game.

It's not an awful comparison because it brings to light an obvious imbalance in the game whether it be the root or not. Zos could have easily made the snare reduction component of elude identical to the length of RAT's.

They're different abilities in function and design. Just because they share some of the same buffs, doesn't mean they should be directly compared.

As I said, Elude is meant as a fire and forget ability because it provides it's buffs for a huge amount of time. For someone interested in Major Expedition and Major Evasion, this ability provides both for 1 cast over 36-40s making it extremely cost effective, especially if you already have a snare removal elsewhere.

Spamming the ability goes completely against the intention of the morph.

RAT is meant to be spammed when needed, because it provides minor force and 4s major expedition, 2s immunity is more than fair to be added here. Especially since this is the only universal option avaialble to Magicka players.

They tried something originally (what you're referring to) and they found it didn't fit their design intent of the morph. So why are we still talking about it? Their comments didn't mean NO ability can have Major Expedition and Snare Removal, they were speaking about the overwhelming power of Elude. It was OP and the current morph at least makes it different from Shuffle, which is meant to be for Snare removal/immunity.

Elude could easily still be fire and forget but spammed (at cost) for immunity as needed. You could also increase the cost because immunity is very strong and keep it from being spammed indefinitely. Like you said outside of class passives/ abilities, what options does stamina have for snare removal outside of forward momentum thus sacrificing the only burst heal that most stamina specs have?

WreckfulAbandon

MashmalloMan

usmguy1234 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It was overloaded and RAT has both, but in a very balanced way. 2s of immunity and 4s of Major Expedition is good, but it didn't compare to how strong their proposed Elude at the time would of been.

Elude lasts 40s in 7 Medium and can give you permanent major expedition in fights since the major expedition procs off any aoe direct damage. It's clear they meant for this ability to be a fire and forget type of buff, not something you spam.

If you play a class that gets snare removal elsewhere, then casting this once every 36-40s is the easiest and most cost efficent way to get up to 100% major expedition uptime. Top it off with Major Evasion and Elude looks very nice.

The issue with the current meta is most Medium Armor users use BRP DW backbar for Quick/Deadly Cloak so Elude becomes very redundant. The other issue, if you needed snare removal outside your class from 2h, Forward Momentum is very underwhelming and costs you Rally. This would of been okay if it kept the HOT, but thats gone now.

So the comparison is awful. RAT is fine, Elude is fine. It's the context of other abilities/sets in the game.

It's not an awful comparison because it brings to light an obvious imbalance in the game whether it be the root or not. Zos could have easily made the snare reduction component of elude identical to the length of RAT's.

They're different abilities in function and design. Just because they share some of the same buffs, doesn't mean they should be directly compared.

As I said, Elude is meant as a fire and forget ability because it provides it's buffs for a huge amount of time. For someone interested in Major Expedition and Major Evasion, this ability provides both for 1 cast over 36-40s making it extremely cost effective, especially if you already have a snare removal elsewhere.

Spamming the ability goes completely against the intention of the morph.

RAT is meant to be spammed when needed, because it provides minor force and 4s major expedition, 2s immunity is more than fair to be added here. Especially since this is the only universal option avaialble to Magicka players.

They tried something originally (what you're referring to) and they found it didn't fit their design intent of the morph. So why are we still talking about it? Their comments didn't mean NO ability can have Major Expedition and Snare Removal, they were speaking about the overwhelming power of Elude. It was OP and the current morph at least makes it different from Shuffle, which is meant to be for Snare removal/immunity.

Elude could easily still be fire and forget but spammed (at cost) for immunity as needed. You could also increase the cost because immunity is very strong and keep it from being spammed indefinitely. Like you said outside of class passives/ abilities, what options does stamina have for snare removal outside of forward momentum thus sacrificing the only burst heal that most stamina specs have?

While I agree and would absolutely love to have 2s of immunity. I think it's well over its power budget, even with an increased cost to spam, not to mention it just doesn't seem to match what they were going with the morph and the "fire and forget" type of buff it is. It's sort of a different category all together.

Just think about Elude for a second and what it actually offers for it's cost. If you were in 7 medium, we can safely say in combat (where it matters), you will get hit with at least 1 direct damage aoe ability within a 7s window. This means you can have close to 100% uptime of major expedition + major evasion.

In 7 Medium this costs 2762 stamina every 40s. That's 70 stamina/s.

Compare this to other sources of major expedition in the game that have been severely hindered this year to 4s standards, as well as how potent major expedition really is after ALL the nerfs to snares. Snares are much less abundant, the value was lowered in most cases and behave additively with possitive movement effects making them even less potent then before.

Look at pots that only provide 1/4 of the pot with major expedition instead of the 100% like before.

Quick cloak as a close comparison costs 3251 stamina in 7med with 4s of major expedition on cast, thats 813 stamina/s to if used for major expedition. Over 10x the cost and wastes many more GCDs to constantly cast.

It's safe to say, ZOS values Major Expedition as a strong buff given all the nerfs to it's duration. Elude can provide this for a high uptime with little thought or effort on the players side for next to no sustain. The ease of use, not having to cast an ability over and over again, clears up time to be on the defensive/offensive.

This is what tells me Elude is a very strong ability, the issue is entirely the sets in the current meta and other abilities available. Why bother with Elude, when in 7 medium you'd most likely cast Quick Cloak with a BRP DW backbar to mitigate a ton of damage + get speed + major evasion. This option overshadows Elude entirely, at least for now. We should not be balancing skills based on sets. The skill isn't used because many of it's buffs are redundant.

If you're not using Quick Cloak and you do use Elude, you might be looking for an alternative snare removal. Forward Momentum is the logical next option, but you need to give up Rally for it. Without a burst heal alternative, this is a strong no go.

So yeah, idk. Agree to dissagree then.

usmguy1234

MashmalloMan wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

usmguy1234 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It was overloaded and RAT has both, but in a very balanced way. 2s of immunity and 4s of Major Expedition is good, but it didn't compare to how strong their proposed Elude at the time would of been.

Elude lasts 40s in 7 Medium and can give you permanent major expedition in fights since the major expedition procs off any aoe direct damage. It's clear they meant for this ability to be a fire and forget type of buff, not something you spam.

If you play a class that gets snare removal elsewhere, then casting this once every 36-40s is the easiest and most cost efficent way to get up to 100% major expedition uptime. Top it off with Major Evasion and Elude looks very nice.

The issue with the current meta is most Medium Armor users use BRP DW backbar for Quick/Deadly Cloak so Elude becomes very redundant. The other issue, if you needed snare removal outside your class from 2h, Forward Momentum is very underwhelming and costs you Rally. This would of been okay if it kept the HOT, but thats gone now.

So the comparison is awful. RAT is fine, Elude is fine. It's the context of other abilities/sets in the game.

It's not an awful comparison because it brings to light an obvious imbalance in the game whether it be the root or not. Zos could have easily made the snare reduction component of elude identical to the length of RAT's.

They're different abilities in function and design. Just because they share some of the same buffs, doesn't mean they should be directly compared.

As I said, Elude is meant as a fire and forget ability because it provides it's buffs for a huge amount of time. For someone interested in Major Expedition and Major Evasion, this ability provides both for 1 cast over 36-40s making it extremely cost effective, especially if you already have a snare removal elsewhere.

Spamming the ability goes completely against the intention of the morph.

RAT is meant to be spammed when needed, because it provides minor force and 4s major expedition, 2s immunity is more than fair to be added here. Especially since this is the only universal option avaialble to Magicka players.

They tried something originally (what you're referring to) and they found it didn't fit their design intent of the morph. So why are we still talking about it? Their comments didn't mean NO ability can have Major Expedition and Snare Removal, they were speaking about the overwhelming power of Elude. It was OP and the current morph at least makes it different from Shuffle, which is meant to be for Snare removal/immunity.

Elude could easily still be fire and forget but spammed (at cost) for immunity as needed. You could also increase the cost because immunity is very strong and keep it from being spammed indefinitely. Like you said outside of class passives/ abilities, what options does stamina have for snare removal outside of forward momentum thus sacrificing the only burst heal that most stamina specs have?

While I agree and would absolutely love to have 2s of immunity. I think it's well over its power budget, even with an increased cost to spam, not to mention it just doesn't seem to match what they were going with the morph and the "fire and forget" type of buff it is. It's sort of a different category all together.

Just think about Elude for a second and what it actually offers for it's cost. If you were in 7 medium, we can safely say in combat (where it matters), you will get hit with at least 1 direct damage aoe ability within a 7s window. This means you can have close to 100% uptime of major expedition + major evasion.

In 7 Medium this costs 2762 stamina every 40s. That's 70 stamina/s.

Compare this to other sources of major expedition in the game that have been severely hindered this year to 4s standards, as well as how potent major expedition really is after ALL the nerfs to snares. Snares are much less abundant, the value was lowered in most cases and behave additively with possitive movement effects making them even less potent then before.

Look at pots that only provide 1/4 of the pot with major expedition instead of the 100% like before.

Quick cloak as a close comparison costs 3251 stamina in 7med with 4s of major expedition on cast, thats 813 stamina/s to if used for major expedition. Over 10x the cost and wastes many more GCDs to constantly cast.

It's safe to say, ZOS values Major Expedition as a strong buff given all the nerfs to it's duration. Elude can provide this for a high uptime with little thought or effort on the players side for next to no sustain. The ease of use, not having to cast an ability over and over again, clears up time to be on the defensive/offensive.

This is what tells me Elude is a very strong ability, the issue is entirely the sets in the current meta and other abilities available. Why bother with Elude, when in 7 medium you'd most likely cast Quick Cloak with a BRP DW backbar to mitigate a ton of damage + get speed + major evasion. This option overshadows Elude entirely, at least for now. We should not be balancing skills based on sets. The skill isn't used because many of it's buffs are redundant.

If you're not using Quick Cloak and you do use Elude, you might be looking for an alternative snare removal. Forward Momentum is the logical next option, but you need to give up Rally for it. Without a burst heal alternative, this is a strong no go.

So yeah, idk. Agree to dissagree then.

I don't think we agree to disagree. We both agree that stam needs a decent snare immunity because let's be honest, what does all the mobility speed in the world mean when you get snared and can't move at all especially when movement speed is capped to begin with? The mentioning of rat is because it is a skill that does 2 very powerful things with the sacrifice of one skill spot whereas a stam player will have to slot 2 skills to get the same benefit in addition to sacrificing survibility in the form of rally. Elude itself may be dirt cheap but casting it and forward momentum just to get the benefit of one skill is where the disparity lies. So, it only seems logical to put this benefit on the medium armor skill line so it will be accessible to all stamina players. If your problem is the uptime of major expedition from elude that can obviously be balanced. Medium is suppose to be the mobility/ dexterity armor weight and to see heavy and light armor on a similar footing just because of one skill feels wrong. Thank you anyways for the civil conversation. Cheers.

Mr_Walker

This is awesome news, I mean, this game needs MORE cc, it's not like it's overloaded with it already.