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Stamina Nightblade issues in PvP
SnikerPKK
✭✭✭
Hello everybody,
this thread aims to list and explain all of Stamina Nightblade issues in PvP many which also affect Magicka Nightblade more or equally as much.
Due to the newly introduced "ability standardization" I will also compare skills/passives and explain the disadvantages of being a Nightblade compared to almost every other class in the game.
To hopefully make the combat devs see it and understand the issue with the class/meta more.
If you know of any more issues that have not been listed here then go on and comment them down below, we can discuss anything here.
Feel free to cry your souls out about how badly Nightblades have been massacred as this post serves as a safespace for all hurt cloakblades.
We dont judge here, just insult understand eachother.
A NOTE FOR ALL YOU FORUM WARRIORS: I AND MANY OTHERS WILL DISCREDIT/IGNORE EVERY COMMENT OF USERS WHO CLEARLY DID NOT READ THE ENTIRE POST.
Lack of damaging buffs/debuffs on skills
Compared to other stamina specs, stamina nightblades are in a huge disadvantage when it comes to having their damage amplified.
Stamina Wardens have Major Fracture built on top of their offGCD burst ability that is also AoE, Stamina Necromancers have Major Defile built on top of their burst ability that is also offGCD, given Major Defile is a pressure debuff but debuffing healing results in doing more damage in the longer run and preventing your enemy from recovering is very important especially this patch where healing is extremely overtuned.
Mark surely exists but for how empty the skill is it's not worth wasting your barspace for it if you could put a much more impactful skill there such as: Shadow Image, Shuffle, Leeching, Executioner or Camohunter basically provides about the same amount of damage but also gives you Major Savagery, 3% more weapon damage and doesn't have to be reapplied constantly. Also applying the skill leaves a huge mark on your opponent making you even more predictible with your next move.
The Major Berserk part from Reapers mark also does not work with how Nightblade plays as you will never be able to take advantage of the buff. Cause as soon as a Stamblade kills a player it needs to escape and reset which takes much longer than 5seconds.
When you compare Nightblade and Warden further you're going to notice an even bigger gap between how much damage the classes can put out.
For example Warden receives Minor Berserk on Bird of Prey and Minor Vulnerability on a Dot which is arguably one of the strongest damage debuffs in CP PvP because of how damage formulas work in this game.
Now before you say that Nightblades also have Minor Vulnerability on a skill, I have to stop you there because ambush in comparison to Growing Swarm is a super buggy, telegraphed, clunky and impactless skill that no build usually has barspace for. It slows down your gameplay and opens a huge burst window for your enemy to punish.
Here is an example of that:
Keep in mind that ranged classes can punish you even harder for using this skill, which can turn this skill into a deathtrap.
The worst thing about this skill is the charge up animation before you jump on your opponent.
About Death Strokes 20% damage buff, I will mention it later and explain how terrible it currently is.
Class being very turn based with no good stun available
In comparison to any other class who also tries to kill with Burst, Nightblades burst ability is very lackluster.
The biggest advantage of Wardens/Necromancers/Sorcerers burst is that their burst abilities are offGCD which means a player can put out much more damage within 1 GCD bringing him much closer to executing their target after a combo. These skills are also undodgeable.
Other classes who do not posses an offGCD ability have been previously brought in line with a stun on their Ultimates such as Leap or Incapacitating Strike which allowed for a further follow up before executing.
While Dragonknights still posses such an ability, it was ripped off from Nightblades kit making their burst easily avoidable and in majority of situations just not enough.
With the class' nature being bursty and having no pressure outside of it's burst abilities, it's important that the Nightblade lands some or all of it's burst skills, otherwise he/she wont be able to kill their target. Yet that is simply impossible when after each GCD your enemy has another GCD to react to the burst thrown at him.
To land your Death Stroke, Grim Focus and to execute you need at least 3 to 4 GCDs. After your ultimate has been thrown out to take advantage of the damaging buff your enemy has whole 3 to 4 seconds reaction window in which he can simply just start holding block negating all of your damage, rolling once or twice or activating any of his recovering skills.
This whole issue only gets much bigger considering Death Stroke is delayed by 400ms and Grim Focus by 270ms(due to it being a slower projectile).
3 seconds in a fight feels like minutes, months sometimes years.
No other burst class has to deal with it as they can simply line up their burst ability with their Ultimate resulting in sometimes gigantic damage output.
The delay on both your burst skills is also the reason why Mass Hysteria/Turn Evil(Both AoE Fear abilities) are so bad on Nightblades currently. Breaking Free takes 40-75ms which after you can instantly start holding block or start rolling making the follow up after a Fear impossible on a player who knows what he is doing.
Offbalance gained from Tactician is the only stun that Stamblades crutch on currently and with next patch changes to offbalance, the future looks even worse for Stamblades as their success currently relies on how strong Offbalance is. A mechanic that isn't even included in their kit.
Nightblade currently feels much like playing Pokemon with your enemy, you do one skill, he does one skill, you do one skill, he does one skill, you do one skill, he does one skill, etc.
All the issues mentioned above is also the reason why the 20% damage buff from Death Stroke is currently so impactless, as you either use it to execute your enemy after an offbalance heavy attack into Incap or don't use it at all. All of this is extremely unhealthy and is not how the class is supposed to be played.
Skill/Passives Comparisons and how impactless Nightblades kit is
Let's take a look at the Assassination Tree and compare it with the Two-Hander Weapon Tree, Zenimax said Class skills should always be better than Weapon skills right?
Incapacitating Strike vs Onslaught
Onslaught's tooltip is bigger by roughly 8%, the debuff effect applies on the initial hit and the skill allows you to not invest anything into penetration gaining absurd amounts of more damage over Incapacitating Strike.
Incapacitating Strikes damage debuff does not apply on the initial hit, the skill animation becomes seemingly slower at 120 Ultimate and the skill Silences which prevents you from fearing your enemy making the skills which provides no stun simply better. SILENCE IS A TERRIBLE STUN PLEASE REMOVE IT.
The Reave passive also only equals to roughly 10 to 30 regen in a 5 minute or longer fight.
Killer's Blade vs Executioner
Executioner has a higher base tooltip, higher damage build up, has a smoother animation and is much easier to execute with considering how strong healing which makes it so easy to escape the 25% HP mark.
Killer's Blade's healing is extremely pathetic and underwhelrming too, making this skill pointless to equip over Executioner.
And before you write that it can be equipped on a Dual-Wield frontbar build I want to ask you one thing: Who in their right mind plays Dual-Wield frontbar this patch? Off-Meta builds are completely irrelevant to me as they do not represent the strength of a class.
Executioner vs Battle Rush
Considering that Killer's Blade is a much worse execute ability than Executioner(The 2h Execute) putting this passive already in a disadvantage over Battle Rush.
Battle Rush procs off of any kill and 30% more recovery for 10 seconds is much more sustain Fthan some pathetic 2k stamina.
Now this trend continues on the Magicka side too for example when we compare Elemental Drain to Mark you can see how empty Mark is, while Elemental Drain also provides a huge sustain buff, Mark is simply empty. And, how will you even manage to take advantage of the Mark healing if your class doesn't have enough damage to kill anything over 30k HP which seems to be the vast majority of the playerbase nowadays.
Overall the Assasination Tree's passives are underwhelming, take for example Master Assassin which it's only redeeming value is having a atmospheric sounding name, the 10% weapon damage out of stealth is completely irrelevant with how little damage it provides to your combos.
And while other classes receive passives such as Advanced Species, Rapid Rot or Amplitude, Nightblade gets Pressuring Points... Which it's purpose is to...? Be completely meaningless to Nightblades?
Even Major Savagery on skills such as FOO from DK which gives more crit chance than this passive with the entirety of Assassination tree slotted.
This leaves us with only one decent passive in this Tree for both the Magicka and Stamina spec, which is hemorrhage which the Templars and now Wardens also own now
With the damage buff of this passive not even being any good due to the existance of Transmutation or Impreg which is widely considered the best defensive set currently with whole 30% critical damage mitgation. Nowadays you have builds running around who completely mitgate the entirety of your critical damage and this passive does not help.
At least change it to be critical healing too like the Wardens will have next patch....
Now when you look at the Damage buff/debuff issue above you can also safely say that Nightblade is the only class without a single impactful damage amplification method that wouldn't starve the user of barspace and potentially ruin the functionality of the build.
Offensive windows and delayed damage
Stamblade works much differently with it's offensive windows than any other class, while other classes have their offensive windows judged by how much damage they can take on face to face, Stamblades offensive window depends on how much pressure it has on the enemy.
No defile on Incapacitating Strike and the current tank meta where people can simply go above 27k HP and not care about a Stamblades burst makes it is close to none which makes the delays put on Incapacitating Strike and Grim Focus much worse. Stamblades need to hit their burst and establish dominance over their enemy quicker than ever before and need much more damage to do so as well. And that is in the current patch close to impossible. Holding up the pressure without Defile or a decent stun makes holding that pressure impossible as well. 1 roll, 1 good block or 1 vigor completely negates the entirety of a Nightblades kit.
It can go 2 ways: after a landed Incapacitating Strike or Onslaught that's when your offensive window ends as you fail to put out enough damage to put your enemy on defense OR your Offbalance Heavy Attack into Ult near oneshots your enemy. Is this any healthy ?
For now I will leave it at that and probably update it with more issues in the future. DISCUSS!
Edited by SnikerPKK on January 27, 2020 10:49PM this thread aims to list and explain all of Stamina Nightblade issues in PvP many which also affect Magicka Nightblade more or equally as much.
Due to the newly introduced "ability standardization" I will also compare skills/passives and explain the disadvantages of being a Nightblade compared to almost every other class in the game.
To hopefully make the combat devs see it and understand the issue with the class/meta more.
If you know of any more issues that have not been listed here then go on and comment them down below, we can discuss anything here.
Feel free to cry your souls out about how badly Nightblades have been massacred as this post serves as a safespace for all hurt cloakblades.
We dont judge here, just insult understand eachother.
A NOTE FOR ALL YOU FORUM WARRIORS: I AND MANY OTHERS WILL DISCREDIT/IGNORE EVERY COMMENT OF USERS WHO CLEARLY DID NOT READ THE ENTIRE POST.
Lack of damaging buffs/debuffs on skills
Compared to other stamina specs, stamina nightblades are in a huge disadvantage when it comes to having their damage amplified.
Stamina Wardens have Major Fracture built on top of their offGCD burst ability that is also AoE, Stamina Necromancers have Major Defile built on top of their burst ability that is also offGCD, given Major Defile is a pressure debuff but debuffing healing results in doing more damage in the longer run and preventing your enemy from recovering is very important especially this patch where healing is extremely overtuned.
Mark surely exists but for how empty the skill is it's not worth wasting your barspace for it if you could put a much more impactful skill there such as: Shadow Image, Shuffle, Leeching, Executioner or Camohunter basically provides about the same amount of damage but also gives you Major Savagery, 3% more weapon damage and doesn't have to be reapplied constantly. Also applying the skill leaves a huge mark on your opponent making you even more predictible with your next move.
The Major Berserk part from Reapers mark also does not work with how Nightblade plays as you will never be able to take advantage of the buff. Cause as soon as a Stamblade kills a player it needs to escape and reset which takes much longer than 5seconds.
When you compare Nightblade and Warden further you're going to notice an even bigger gap between how much damage the classes can put out.
For example Warden receives Minor Berserk on Bird of Prey and Minor Vulnerability on a Dot which is arguably one of the strongest damage debuffs in CP PvP because of how damage formulas work in this game.
Now before you say that Nightblades also have Minor Vulnerability on a skill, I have to stop you there because ambush in comparison to Growing Swarm is a super buggy, telegraphed, clunky and impactless skill that no build usually has barspace for. It slows down your gameplay and opens a huge burst window for your enemy to punish.
Here is an example of that:
Keep in mind that ranged classes can punish you even harder for using this skill, which can turn this skill into a deathtrap.
The worst thing about this skill is the charge up animation before you jump on your opponent.
About Death Strokes 20% damage buff, I will mention it later and explain how terrible it currently is.
Class being very turn based with no good stun available
In comparison to any other class who also tries to kill with Burst, Nightblades burst ability is very lackluster.
The biggest advantage of Wardens/Necromancers/Sorcerers burst is that their burst abilities are offGCD which means a player can put out much more damage within 1 GCD bringing him much closer to executing their target after a combo. These skills are also undodgeable.
Other classes who do not posses an offGCD ability have been previously brought in line with a stun on their Ultimates such as Leap or Incapacitating Strike which allowed for a further follow up before executing.
While Dragonknights still posses such an ability, it was ripped off from Nightblades kit making their burst easily avoidable and in majority of situations just not enough.
With the class' nature being bursty and having no pressure outside of it's burst abilities, it's important that the Nightblade lands some or all of it's burst skills, otherwise he/she wont be able to kill their target. Yet that is simply impossible when after each GCD your enemy has another GCD to react to the burst thrown at him.
To land your Death Stroke, Grim Focus and to execute you need at least 3 to 4 GCDs. After your ultimate has been thrown out to take advantage of the damaging buff your enemy has whole 3 to 4 seconds reaction window in which he can simply just start holding block negating all of your damage, rolling once or twice or activating any of his recovering skills.
This whole issue only gets much bigger considering Death Stroke is delayed by 400ms and Grim Focus by 270ms(due to it being a slower projectile).
3 seconds in a fight feels like minutes, months sometimes years.
No other burst class has to deal with it as they can simply line up their burst ability with their Ultimate resulting in sometimes gigantic damage output.
The delay on both your burst skills is also the reason why Mass Hysteria/Turn Evil(Both AoE Fear abilities) are so bad on Nightblades currently. Breaking Free takes 40-75ms which after you can instantly start holding block or start rolling making the follow up after a Fear impossible on a player who knows what he is doing.
Offbalance gained from Tactician is the only stun that Stamblades crutch on currently and with next patch changes to offbalance, the future looks even worse for Stamblades as their success currently relies on how strong Offbalance is. A mechanic that isn't even included in their kit.
Nightblade currently feels much like playing Pokemon with your enemy, you do one skill, he does one skill, you do one skill, he does one skill, you do one skill, he does one skill, etc.
All the issues mentioned above is also the reason why the 20% damage buff from Death Stroke is currently so impactless, as you either use it to execute your enemy after an offbalance heavy attack into Incap or don't use it at all. All of this is extremely unhealthy and is not how the class is supposed to be played.
Skill/Passives Comparisons and how impactless Nightblades kit is
Let's take a look at the Assassination Tree and compare it with the Two-Hander Weapon Tree, Zenimax said Class skills should always be better than Weapon skills right?
Incapacitating Strike vs Onslaught
Onslaught's tooltip is bigger by roughly 8%, the debuff effect applies on the initial hit and the skill allows you to not invest anything into penetration gaining absurd amounts of more damage over Incapacitating Strike.
Incapacitating Strikes damage debuff does not apply on the initial hit, the skill animation becomes seemingly slower at 120 Ultimate and the skill Silences which prevents you from fearing your enemy making the skills which provides no stun simply better. SILENCE IS A TERRIBLE STUN PLEASE REMOVE IT.
The Reave passive also only equals to roughly 10 to 30 regen in a 5 minute or longer fight.
Killer's Blade vs Executioner
Executioner has a higher base tooltip, higher damage build up, has a smoother animation and is much easier to execute with considering how strong healing which makes it so easy to escape the 25% HP mark.
Killer's Blade's healing is extremely pathetic and underwhelrming too, making this skill pointless to equip over Executioner.
And before you write that it can be equipped on a Dual-Wield frontbar build I want to ask you one thing: Who in their right mind plays Dual-Wield frontbar this patch? Off-Meta builds are completely irrelevant to me as they do not represent the strength of a class.
Executioner vs Battle Rush
Considering that Killer's Blade is a much worse execute ability than Executioner(The 2h Execute) putting this passive already in a disadvantage over Battle Rush.
Battle Rush procs off of any kill and 30% more recovery for 10 seconds is much more sustain Fthan some pathetic 2k stamina.
Now this trend continues on the Magicka side too for example when we compare Elemental Drain to Mark you can see how empty Mark is, while Elemental Drain also provides a huge sustain buff, Mark is simply empty. And, how will you even manage to take advantage of the Mark healing if your class doesn't have enough damage to kill anything over 30k HP which seems to be the vast majority of the playerbase nowadays.
Overall the Assasination Tree's passives are underwhelming, take for example Master Assassin which it's only redeeming value is having a atmospheric sounding name, the 10% weapon damage out of stealth is completely irrelevant with how little damage it provides to your combos.
And while other classes receive passives such as Advanced Species, Rapid Rot or Amplitude, Nightblade gets Pressuring Points... Which it's purpose is to...? Be completely meaningless to Nightblades?
Even Major Savagery on skills such as FOO from DK which gives more crit chance than this passive with the entirety of Assassination tree slotted.
This leaves us with only one decent passive in this Tree for both the Magicka and Stamina spec, which is hemorrhage which the Templars and now Wardens also own now
With the damage buff of this passive not even being any good due to the existance of Transmutation or Impreg which is widely considered the best defensive set currently with whole 30% critical damage mitgation. Nowadays you have builds running around who completely mitgate the entirety of your critical damage and this passive does not help.
At least change it to be critical healing too like the Wardens will have next patch....
Now when you look at the Damage buff/debuff issue above you can also safely say that Nightblade is the only class without a single impactful damage amplification method that wouldn't starve the user of barspace and potentially ruin the functionality of the build.
Offensive windows and delayed damage
Stamblade works much differently with it's offensive windows than any other class, while other classes have their offensive windows judged by how much damage they can take on face to face, Stamblades offensive window depends on how much pressure it has on the enemy.
No defile on Incapacitating Strike and the current tank meta where people can simply go above 27k HP and not care about a Stamblades burst makes it is close to none which makes the delays put on Incapacitating Strike and Grim Focus much worse. Stamblades need to hit their burst and establish dominance over their enemy quicker than ever before and need much more damage to do so as well. And that is in the current patch close to impossible. Holding up the pressure without Defile or a decent stun makes holding that pressure impossible as well. 1 roll, 1 good block or 1 vigor completely negates the entirety of a Nightblades kit.
It can go 2 ways: after a landed Incapacitating Strike or Onslaught that's when your offensive window ends as you fail to put out enough damage to put your enemy on defense OR your Offbalance Heavy Attack into Ult near oneshots your enemy. Is this any healthy ?
For now I will leave it at that and probably update it with more issues in the future. DISCUSS!
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Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭BRILLIANTLY WRITTEN! So many good points, you totally nailed it. Please post this in the PTS forum. This is important for the devs to see and I agree with just about everything you said. @SnikerPKKEdited by Nyladreas on January 27, 2020 5:28PM7 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree, cast time and removal of major fracture made stamNB so much weaker. I remember when you were unable to make a step without some stealth protection aoe, or you will be fighting for survival from NB's bursts on incap recharge, now it is absolutely not needed, chance to receive powerful burst from stamblade is extremely small and you only need detection pots to kill NBs, not to protect yourself from them.
Also Cauterize doesn't give major savagery, so with nerfed leap, volatile and dizzy stamDKs will be very weak next patch if nothing will change.2 -
madman65✭✭✭✭I thought having Anti-Calvary Caltrops and Bombard would give a good movement debuff on PVP but it doesn`t even effect any enemy players. That`s 90% reduction in movement and it does no effect! What the crap... have I missed something?1 -
GrigorijMalahevich✭✭✭✭✭You just need to get vigor in your rotationPC/EU 800 CP.
PvP MagSorc.Pedro Gonzales - Mag Sorc EP vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/CB6j6
Valera Progib - Stam Sorc DC vMA Flawless Conqueror clear https://i.imgur.com/eYgpXG2.png
Valera Pozhar - Mag DK EP vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/jrsuK
Valera Podlechi - Mag Templar AD vMA Flawless Conqueror clear http://imgur.com/a/N0BYq2 -
sproattt✭✭✭Yeah for real I agree with OP.
Incap....take the silence off it, you don't even need to give it defile or a stun. The fact Silence is basically free CC immunity is insanity, just shows that this was given the green light to go ahead live is an embarrassing mess.
Fear on NB is useless, gutted it by removing the snare/minor main it provided. You put yourself at a disadvantage using this, now considering off balance is getting nerfed means another kick to an already crippled class.
Cast times on Onslaught I can understand due to the power it has and the penetration it provides.
Dawny, remove the cast times as you nerfs the DOT drastically last patch. Low damage compared to Leap and leap stuns, gives resources.Stamblade Main.2 -
LuxLunae✭✭✭✭✭I was in cyro and a NB took out my health in like 2 hits or something...Problem is the trick only works once..0
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SnikerPKK✭✭✭BRILLIANTLY WRITTEN! So many good points, you totally nailed it. Please post this in the PTS forum. This is important for the devs to see and I agree with just about everything you said. @SnikerPKK
You can make a forum post for the devs to notice in the PTS category yourself, as I think reposting a post several times over is a bannable offense.
@NyladreasEdited by SnikerPKK on January 27, 2020 6:13PM0 -
Stebarnz✭✭✭✭✭
✭What breaks this class is cloak mechs,
Don't give absolute invis then its easier to balance. Keep absolute invis and its either underwhelming or OP to the point of Cyro empty as everyone afraid to come out of stealth due to ganked, or everyone a NB.
The most trolls in this game play a NB, they broke it, not ZOS. (Granted ZOS doesn't know how to balance so the outcome was inevitable).8 -
SnikerPKK✭✭✭What breaks this class is cloak mechs,
Don't give absolute invis then its easier to balance. Keep absolute invis and its either underwhelming or OP to the point of Cyro empty as everyone afraid to come out of stealth due to ganked, or everyone a NB.
The most trolls in this game play a NB, they broke it, not ZOS. (Granted ZOS doesn't know how to balance so the outcome was inevitable).
Fighting cloak is an L2P issue, as nobody should have an issue fighting Nightblades with detect potions.
Me as a player who uses them as a secondary potion option on everything I play I had never issues fighting cloak blades.
On top of that other classes have even more counters to cloak such as massive AoEs, Delayed abilities like POTL or Curse or Things like streak.Edited by SnikerPKK on January 27, 2020 6:37PM11 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭Sniker is absolutely right. Stam NBs' offensive window has been utterly shredded.
We've lost Major Fracture on Surprise Attack, lost Minor Berserk on Relentless Focus, lost Major Defile on Incap, lost the stun on Incap, gained a cast time on Incap, gained cast time on Relentless Focus (which has since been reduced some), lost several debuffs on targets that protected against purge, lost significant delayed burst in the form of the pseudo execute Poison Injection (since they changed the core functionality of the ability, redistributing value to what is a more or less worthless portion of the ability for more skilled/combo-oriented players), and are now losing uptime on Off-balance (which is used for the 10% damage from the Exploiter CP and also as a means to CC a target with immediate follow up damage). I maybe missed some stuff, too.
On top of that, other classes are tankier than ever before, since healing is through the roof and sword-n-board blocking is a low user input but extremely effective defensive option at the moment that NB in particular has difficulty dealing with.
As Sniker mentioned above, other classes have an easier time bursting than NBs do (please note that bursting typically implies an accompanying CC). For example, Stamplars can fill up a POTL to pop (and crit now!) while they're bursting. Wardens can pre-Shalk to time with their burst. Necros can time Blastbones to go off with their burst (when they behave properly.. ALSO HAS MAJOR DEFILE). These are all supplements to burst windows OFF the GCD. Classes like StamDK don't have the delayed burst, but they DO have class DoTs and a powerful ultimate that also stuns the target to allow for follow up damage. NBs are missing both the delayed burst and the powerful, offensive stun alongside offensive buffs/debuffs. Stamblades' burst combo generally takes more set-up and skill to pull off than other classes, and in addition to that, they have to take 1-2 more GCDs than other classes to actually get their burst off in a smaller kill window, which makes all the difference when going for a kill attempt. In addition, it's worth noting that NB sustained pressure is also low in PVP.
The PTS off-balance changes honestly make zero sense to me. They've essentially pigeonholed builds into playing around off-balance stun, and now they're severely restricting it? What do they expect builds to do for CC during burst opportunities when off-balance is on its long cooldown? It's already a tank meta, and most people can't afford to drop damage from their bars for CC (we're pretending that every class has options for good CC, too). Also, the applications of off-balance are nowhere near equal. Stamina NBs have been applying off-balance through Tactician CP passive for years now, and it hasn't been a problem afaik. Applying off-balance through Tactician CP requires more timing, finesse, and resources than the SPAMMABLES (like Dizzying/Birds) that they changed to apply it in the previous patch. Because off-balance became more ubiquitous due to laughable design choices, NBs and other builds that used Tactician (and armor sets like Truth) are going to suffer collateral damage without ANY kind of power redistribution when they're already suffering offensively. The one thing that people complained about in regards to off-balance was how much resource restore a player could receive through heavy attacks on an off-balance target, and on the current PTS, they made it so that your heavy attacks no longer remove the off-balance, so you can get double the resources from your heavy attacks multiple times! WHAT? They really need to re-evaluate these off-balance changes. They could lower the length of the off-balance effect while reducing the cooldown of it to match the duration of CC immunity.. or something like that.
Also inb4 people say to slot Mark/Ambush. My bars generally look like this:
Front: Surprise Attack, Rally, Relentless Focus, Camo Hunter, Fear/Executioner, Ult: Incap
Back: Shade, Vigor, Poison Injection, Shuffle, Cloak, Ult: Undo, Ballista, or Soul Siphon
Mark is a low value ability that simply cannot fit into a competitive build. I already have a difficult time choosing between Fear and Executioner. Wardens have Major Fracture on their off-GCD burst, and sDK's have Major Fracture on their AOE class DoT. THOSE are worth slotting for various obvious reasons. Mark? Not so much.
Ambush is garbage ability for reasons that Sniker mentioned (on top of gap closers being generally unnecessary, especially for small scalers on wood elves + bow builds). It's ironic that it applies Minor Vulnerability, since it's so telegraphed that it leaves the caster vulnerable.
The NB offensive window shrinkage really needs to be addressed. The fluidity of the playstyle has taken an enormous hit, especially with the addition of cast times and the tentative PTS off-balance changes.Edited by Yiko on January 28, 2020 10:56AM20 -
SnikerPKK✭✭✭Sniker is absolutely right. Stam NBs' offensive window has been absolutely shredded.
We've lost Major Fracture on Surprise Attack, lost Minor Berserk on Relentless Focus, lost Major Defile on Incap, lost the stun on Incap, gained a cast time on Incap, gained cast time on Relentless Focus (which has since been reduced some), lost several debuffs on targets that protected against purge, lost significant delayed burst in the form of the pseudo execute Poison Injection (since they changed the core functionality of the ability, redistributing value to a more or less worthless portion of the ability for more skilled/combo-oriented players), and are now losing uptime on Off-balance (which is used for the 10% damage from the Exploiter CP and also as a means to CC a target with immediate follow up damage). I maybe missed some stuff, too.
On top of that, other classes are tankier than ever before, since healing is through the roof and sword-n-board blocking is a low user input but extremely effective defensive option at the moment that NB in particular has difficulty dealing with.
As Sniker mentioned above, other classes have an easier time bursting than NBs do. For example, Stamplars can fill up a POTL to pop (and crit now!) while they're bursting. Wardens can pre-Shalk to time with their burst. Necros can time Blastbones to go off with their burst (when they behave properly.. ALSO HAS MAJOR DEFILE). These are all supplements to burst windows OFF the GCD. Classes like StamDK don't have the delayed burst, but they DO have class DoTs and a powerful ultimate that also stuns the target to allow for follow up damage. NBs are missing both the delayed burst and the powerful, offensive stun alongside offensive buffs/debuffs.
The PTS off-balance changes honestly make zero sense to me. They've essentially pigeonholed builds into playing around off-balance stun, and now they're severely restricting it? What do they expect builds to do for CC during burst opportunities when off-balance is on its long cooldown? It's already a tank meta, and most people can't afford to drop damage from their bars for CC (we're pretending that every class has options for good CC, too). Also, the applications of off-balance are nowhere near equal. Stamina NBs have been applying off-balance through Tactician CP passive for years now, and it hasn't been a problem afaik. Applying off-balance through Tactician CP requires more timing, finesse, and resources than the SPAMMABLES (like Dizzying/Birds) that they changed to apply it in the previous patch. Because off-balance became more ubiquitous due to laughable design choices, NBs and other builds that used Tactician (and armor sets like Truth) are going to suffer collateral damage without ANY kind of power redistribution when they're already suffering offensively. The one thing that people complained about in regards to off-balance was how much resource restore a player could receive through heavy attacks on an off-balance target, and on the current PTS, they made it so that your heavy attacks no longer remove the off-balance, so you can get double the resources from your heavy attacks multiple times! WHAT? They really need to re-evaluate these off-balance changes. They could lower the length of the off-balance effect while reducing the cooldown of it to match the duration of CC immunity.. or something like that.
Also inb4 people say to slot Mark/Ambush. My bars generally look like this:
Front: Surprise Attack, Rally, Relentless Focus, Camo Hunter, Fear/Executioner, Ult: Incap
Back: Shade, Vigor, Poison Injection, Shuffle, Cloak, Ult: Undo, Ballista, or Soul Siphon
Mark is a low value ability that simply cannot fit into a competitive build. I already have a difficult time choosing between Fear and Executioner. Wardens have Major Fracture on their off-GCD burst, and sDK's have Major Fracture on their AOE class DoT. THOSE are worth slotting for various obvious reasons. Mark? Not so much.
Ambush is garbage ability for reasons that Sniker mentioned (on top of gap closers being generally unnecessary, especially for small scalers on wood elves + bow builds). It's ironic that it applies Minor Vulnerability, since it's so telegraphed that it leaves the caster vulnerable.
The NB offensive window shrinkage really needs to be addressed. The fluidity of the playstyle has taken an enormous hit, especially with the addition of cast times and the tentative PTS off-balance changes.
Dont forget about the fact that some addons still show you a MASSIVE ICON that tells you what abilities are being channeled on you.
Such as: Heavy attack(even from stealht), Incapacitating strike cause it has a cast time and Relentless focus cause its a projectile.
On top of the burst being massively delayed due to "counterplay reasons", zenimax never tackled the addons that show everybody what is being done to them with a fat icon.
NB just has no place in this game anymore, the class went from being the killer/rogue class to the annoying mosquito you slap once he lands on you.15 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Literally the only damaging ability I use for my main nb that is a nb ability is assassin’s scrounge (relentless focus bow proc). I technically also have incap slotted, but it exists only for the reave passive2 -
Skysenzz✭✭✭I agree with sniker on nightblades being really weak on attack in the current meta. I think they should have a better burst, but if it fails they get punished easier than right now, especially in duel situation. (Fix camoflage hunter, it works only about 70% of the time).If a good nb is in a tough spot he can escape easily if the oponent doesn't have direct aoe skill or camo. As a sdk main even on medium and 2offensive sets, nightblades have a tough time killing me, and the only way for me to kill them is wait for them to make a mistake deffensively (not avoiding 2 dizzy hits when major fracture) and a high Roll on leap to bring them under 30% and finishing them off with execute.
I think they do not need a dmg mitigation bonus on spectral bow but a damage buff.
Ibhave some other thoughts However but as i don't really know how nb act versus other classes, it could be terrible idea. It won't probably fix issues nightblades are facing right now, but it could help.CP1000+DC sDK Skysenzz
DC Stamden Kartag Vosh Rakh
DC mDK Ignis-Noctem
DC sDK Ellesperis
DC MagSorc Victorià
EP Stamplar Subject to change
EP StamBlade Powerful Ninja Zoid
DC StamNecro StamDK ls Better1 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭My issues are:
- Surprise Attack dealing less damage than this sword and board spammable (which nobody uses, god forbid that a Nb class skill would be stronger than a weapon line skill)
- Cast times
- Moving effects like fracture to useless skills which nobody has barspace for
- No snare anymore
- Fear is bad, off balance stun only works in CP and Surprise Attack stun out of Cloak can be denied by block and a follow up Incap won't hit anyways because of the cast time
- Poison Injection sucks (isn't a Nb skill but affects the playstyle)I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.8 -
Hexys✭✭✭✭✭
✭#BringBackSeleneAstrum | Daggerfall Covenan | EU-PC
Noricum | Daggerfall Covenant | EU-PC
Spectral | Ebonheart Pact | EU-PC
DC | AR 50 | Hexys - Magicka Sorcerer (07-08-2016)
AD | AR 50 | Hexposed - Magicka Sorcerer (27-04-2017)
EP | AR 50 | Darth Hexys - Magicka Sorcerer (05-08-2018)
EP | AR 50 | Grand Overload Hexys - Magicka Sorcerer (03-03-2021)
EP | AR 39 | Legendary Hexys - Magicka Sorcerer
EP | AR 43 | Hexyles - Stamina Nightblade
EP | AR 49 | Hexys - Stamina Nightblade (23-02-2022)
EP | AR 35 | Hexesy Shadowblade - Stamina Nightblade
EP | AR 50 | Hexesy - Magicka Warden (31-01-2021)
EP | AR 49 | Hexyra - Magicka Warden (07-03-2021)
EP | AR 34 | Hexesy Czyterski - Magicka Necromancer
2.5k+ Champion Points
Earned over 640.000.000 Alliance Points!
@Hexiss - Youtube Channel - Twitch Channel2 -
Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭BRILLIANTLY WRITTEN! So many good points, you totally nailed it. Please post this in the PTS forum. This is important for the devs to see and I agree with just about everything you said. @SnikerPKK
You can make a forum post for the devs to notice in the PTS category yourself, as I think reposting a post several times over is a bannable offense.
@Nyladreas
Okay do you mind if I copy it over @SnikerPKK?1 -
SnikerPKK✭✭✭BRILLIANTLY WRITTEN! So many good points, you totally nailed it. Please post this in the PTS forum. This is important for the devs to see and I agree with just about everything you said. @SnikerPKK
You can make a forum post for the devs to notice in the PTS category yourself, as I think reposting a post several times over is a bannable offense.
@Nyladreas
Okay do you mind if I copy it over @SnikerPKK?
Id appreciate if you could credit me before pasting it all in or just quote the whole thing and paste it as a new discussion cause that works too )))
@Nyladreas1 -
Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭BRILLIANTLY WRITTEN! So many good points, you totally nailed it. Please post this in the PTS forum. This is important for the devs to see and I agree with just about everything you said. @SnikerPKK
You can make a forum post for the devs to notice in the PTS category yourself, as I think reposting a post several times over is a bannable offense.
@Nyladreas
Okay do you mind if I copy it over @SnikerPKK?
Id appreciate if you could credit me before pasting it all in or just quote the whole thing and paste it as a new discussion cause that works too )))
@Nyladreas
Of course! Already done!0 -
Stebarnz✭✭✭✭✭
✭What breaks this class is cloak mechs,
Don't give absolute invis then its easier to balance. Keep absolute invis and its either underwhelming or OP to the point of Cyro empty as everyone afraid to come out of stealth due to ganked, or everyone a NB.
The most trolls in this game play a NB, they broke it, not ZOS. (Granted ZOS doesn't know how to balance so the outcome was inevitable).
Fighting cloak is an L2P issue, as nobody should have an issue fighting Nightblades with detect potions.
Me as a player who uses them as a secondary potion option on everything I play I had never issues fighting cloak blades.
On top of that other classes have even more counters to cloak such as massive AoEs, Delayed abilities like POTL or Curse or Things like streak.
Agreed I play with and against it and know the strengths, flaws and counters.
However in the hands of a good player against Johnny average and if certain things were buffed back with cloak as it is then it would be devastating, so its a difficult balance is my point.
It comes from being able to come out of stealth and 1 shot then go back to shade and stealth away with no possibility of getting any damage back (Zergbad), you can say L2P all you want but unfortunately it would be used by these troll fools just to grief people hence its in the state its in.
When casuals complain in enough numbers they get listened to so blame the trolls. 90% of hate whispers I get for killing people in cyro are from nb players, this class attracts butt heads unfortunately.
Its not fair on the class and people who want to play that style as it is envisioned but its why we cant have nice things.
I get your points and agree with a lot but you need to take into account the wider game and casuals experience because ZOS do. (Not me btw, it makes me cry when this game is watered down but, whatcha gonna do.)Edited by Stebarnz on January 27, 2020 10:03PM0 -
SnikerPKK✭✭✭What breaks this class is cloak mechs,
Don't give absolute invis then its easier to balance. Keep absolute invis and its either underwhelming or OP to the point of Cyro empty as everyone afraid to come out of stealth due to ganked, or everyone a NB.
The most trolls in this game play a NB, they broke it, not ZOS. (Granted ZOS doesn't know how to balance so the outcome was inevitable).
Fighting cloak is an L2P issue, as nobody should have an issue fighting Nightblades with detect potions.
Me as a player who uses them as a secondary potion option on everything I play I had never issues fighting cloak blades.
On top of that other classes have even more counters to cloak such as massive AoEs, Delayed abilities like POTL or Curse or Things like streak.
Agreed I play with and against it and know the strengths, flaws and counters.
However in the hands of a good player against Johnny average and if certain things were buffed back with cloak as it is then it would be devastating, so its a difficult balance is my point.
It comes from being able to come out of stealth and 1 shot then go back to shade and stealth away with no possibility of getting any damage back (Zergbad), you can say L2P all you want but unfortunately it would be used by these troll fools just to grief people hence its in the state its in.
When casuals complain in enough numbers they get listened to so blame the trolls. 90% of hate whispers I get for killing people in cyro are from nb players, this class attracts butt heads unfortunately.
Its not fair on the class and people who want to play that style as it is envisioned but its why we cant have nice things.
I get your points and agree with a lot but you need to take into account the wider game and casuals experience because ZOS do. (Not me btw, it makes me cry when this game is watered down but, whatcha gonna do.)
Dont think the ganking that was possible few years ago will ever be possible again, Zenimax made sure ganking got nerfed almost every patch up until now.
As for casuals, the game should not be balanced around the casual scene as thats how u end up with a unhealthy game ridden with crutches without much in-depth combat. Casuals will always cry about Y or X but at least when the game is well balanced for the more experienced players then every casuals issue could be solved with learning.
What are you gonna tell a newbie stamblade now when he struggles to kill a stamDK?
Exactly.
Telling a newbie player to "move on" or "ignore him" is the worst thing that u could possibly tell him, that makes him realize that no matter how much he will improve there is no way of him beating that player.
Thats also my reasoning as to why the current tank meta is terrible for the casual scene.Edited by SnikerPKK on January 27, 2020 10:15PM11 -
Stebarnz✭✭✭✭✭
✭What breaks this class is cloak mechs,
Don't give absolute invis then its easier to balance. Keep absolute invis and its either underwhelming or OP to the point of Cyro empty as everyone afraid to come out of stealth due to ganked, or everyone a NB.
The most trolls in this game play a NB, they broke it, not ZOS. (Granted ZOS doesn't know how to balance so the outcome was inevitable).
Fighting cloak is an L2P issue, as nobody should have an issue fighting Nightblades with detect potions.
Me as a player who uses them as a secondary potion option on everything I play I had never issues fighting cloak blades.
On top of that other classes have even more counters to cloak such as massive AoEs, Delayed abilities like POTL or Curse or Things like streak.
Agreed I play with and against it and know the strengths, flaws and counters.
However in the hands of a good player against Johnny average and if certain things were buffed back with cloak as it is then it would be devastating, so its a difficult balance is my point.
It comes from being able to come out of stealth and 1 shot then go back to shade and stealth away with no possibility of getting any damage back (Zergbad), you can say L2P all you want but unfortunately it would be used by these troll fools just to grief people hence its in the state its in.
When casuals complain in enough numbers they get listened to so blame the trolls. 90% of hate whispers I get for killing people in cyro are from nb players, this class attracts butt heads unfortunately.
Its not fair on the class and people who want to play that style as it is envisioned but its why we cant have nice things.
I get your points and agree with a lot but you need to take into account the wider game and casuals experience because ZOS do. (Not me btw, it makes me cry when this game is watered down but, whatcha gonna do.)
Dont think the ganking that was possible few years ago will ever be possible again, Zenimax made sure ganking got nerfed almost every patch up until now.
As for casuals, the game should not be balanced around the casual scene as thats how u end up with a unhealthy game ridden with crutches without much in-depth combat. Casuals will always cry about Y or X but at least when the game is well balanced for the more experienced players then every casuals issue could be solved with learning.
What are you gonna tell a newbie stamblade now when he struggles to kill a stamDK?
Exactly.
Like I said buddy, I agree with a lot you are saying and I don't like it when this game is made faceroll easy with things to help bad play but unfortunately for NB class it gets abused purely due to cloak.
Imagine if cloak didn't give invis and gave major protection for 'X' (or something like that) the class could get balanced easily, I mean cloak is only used in pvp (unless an rp thieves guild addict).
As far as the newbie NB struggling to kill a DK my advice would be to... cloak away wait for back up and jump in with execute when they are at 20%
I know, but as long as this mechanic is in play its gonna be a problem, Its not the worst thing as ive had to ignore a few players as I just cant kill them. Edited by Stebarnz on January 27, 2020 10:22PM2 -
SnikerPKK✭✭✭What breaks this class is cloak mechs,
Don't give absolute invis then its easier to balance. Keep absolute invis and its either underwhelming or OP to the point of Cyro empty as everyone afraid to come out of stealth due to ganked, or everyone a NB.
The most trolls in this game play a NB, they broke it, not ZOS. (Granted ZOS doesn't know how to balance so the outcome was inevitable).
Fighting cloak is an L2P issue, as nobody should have an issue fighting Nightblades with detect potions.
Me as a player who uses them as a secondary potion option on everything I play I had never issues fighting cloak blades.
On top of that other classes have even more counters to cloak such as massive AoEs, Delayed abilities like POTL or Curse or Things like streak.
Agreed I play with and against it and know the strengths, flaws and counters.
However in the hands of a good player against Johnny average and if certain things were buffed back with cloak as it is then it would be devastating, so its a difficult balance is my point.
It comes from being able to come out of stealth and 1 shot then go back to shade and stealth away with no possibility of getting any damage back (Zergbad), you can say L2P all you want but unfortunately it would be used by these troll fools just to grief people hence its in the state its in.
When casuals complain in enough numbers they get listened to so blame the trolls. 90% of hate whispers I get for killing people in cyro are from nb players, this class attracts butt heads unfortunately.
Its not fair on the class and people who want to play that style as it is envisioned but its why we cant have nice things.
I get your points and agree with a lot but you need to take into account the wider game and casuals experience because ZOS do. (Not me btw, it makes me cry when this game is watered down but, whatcha gonna do.)
Dont think the ganking that was possible few years ago will ever be possible again, Zenimax made sure ganking got nerfed almost every patch up until now.
As for casuals, the game should not be balanced around the casual scene as thats how u end up with a unhealthy game ridden with crutches without much in-depth combat. Casuals will always cry about Y or X but at least when the game is well balanced for the more experienced players then every casuals issue could be solved with learning.
What are you gonna tell a newbie stamblade now when he struggles to kill a stamDK?
Exactly.
Like I said buddy, I agree with a lot you are saying and I don't like it when this game is made faceroll easy with things to help bad play but unfortunately for NB class it gets abused purely due to cloak.
Imagine if cloak didn't give invis and gave major protection for 'X' (or something like that) the class could get balanced easily, I mean cloak is only used in pvp (unless an rp thieves guild addict).
As far as the newbie NB struggling to kill a DK my advice would be to... cloak away wait for back up and jump in with execute when they are at 20%
Id like a better solution, I love the stealth mechanic in this game, you can stop it being abused by adding cloak fatigue Which punishes mistakes. 0 -
Stebarnz✭✭✭✭✭
✭What breaks this class is cloak mechs,
Don't give absolute invis then its easier to balance. Keep absolute invis and its either underwhelming or OP to the point of Cyro empty as everyone afraid to come out of stealth due to ganked, or everyone a NB.
The most trolls in this game play a NB, they broke it, not ZOS. (Granted ZOS doesn't know how to balance so the outcome was inevitable).
Fighting cloak is an L2P issue, as nobody should have an issue fighting Nightblades with detect potions.
Me as a player who uses them as a secondary potion option on everything I play I had never issues fighting cloak blades.
On top of that other classes have even more counters to cloak such as massive AoEs, Delayed abilities like POTL or Curse or Things like streak.
Agreed I play with and against it and know the strengths, flaws and counters.
However in the hands of a good player against Johnny average and if certain things were buffed back with cloak as it is then it would be devastating, so its a difficult balance is my point.
It comes from being able to come out of stealth and 1 shot then go back to shade and stealth away with no possibility of getting any damage back (Zergbad), you can say L2P all you want but unfortunately it would be used by these troll fools just to grief people hence its in the state its in.
When casuals complain in enough numbers they get listened to so blame the trolls. 90% of hate whispers I get for killing people in cyro are from nb players, this class attracts butt heads unfortunately.
Its not fair on the class and people who want to play that style as it is envisioned but its why we cant have nice things.
I get your points and agree with a lot but you need to take into account the wider game and casuals experience because ZOS do. (Not me btw, it makes me cry when this game is watered down but, whatcha gonna do.)
Dont think the ganking that was possible few years ago will ever be possible again, Zenimax made sure ganking got nerfed almost every patch up until now.
As for casuals, the game should not be balanced around the casual scene as thats how u end up with a unhealthy game ridden with crutches without much in-depth combat. Casuals will always cry about Y or X but at least when the game is well balanced for the more experienced players then every casuals issue could be solved with learning.
What are you gonna tell a newbie stamblade now when he struggles to kill a stamDK?
Exactly.
Like I said buddy, I agree with a lot you are saying and I don't like it when this game is made faceroll easy with things to help bad play but unfortunately for NB class it gets abused purely due to cloak.
Imagine if cloak didn't give invis and gave major protection for 'X' (or something like that) the class could get balanced easily, I mean cloak is only used in pvp (unless an rp thieves guild addict).
As far as the newbie NB struggling to kill a DK my advice would be to... cloak away wait for back up and jump in with execute when they are at 20%
Id like a better solution, I love the stealth mechanic in this game, you can stop it being abused by adding cloak fatigue Which punishes mistakes.
100% there must be a work around, fatigue could be tried. I mean cloak is a bit of an iconic assassin skill, right.
It would need to be tested by people who know what they are doing and think of the game as a whole taking everything into account. But ZOS.0 -
MusCanus✭✭✭✭✭
Imagine if cloak didn't give invis and gave major protection for 'X' (or something like that) the class could get balanced easily, I mean cloak is only used in pvp (unless an rp thieves guild addict).
Sure, if you ignore the fact that every player who choose NB as their first toon do so because they want to play rogue/assassin class, not some tank with "protection". You can do that with DK much better anyway.7 -
SnikerPKK✭✭✭
Imagine if cloak didn't give invis and gave major protection for 'X' (or something like that) the class could get balanced easily, I mean cloak is only used in pvp (unless an rp thieves guild addict).
Sure, if you ignore the fact that every player who choose NB as their first toon do so because they want to play rogue/assassin class, not some tank with "protection". You can do that with DK much better anyway.
TRUTH0
