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Item and build variety and class identity
Woodenplank
✭✭✭✭
I've played ESO on/off (currently: on) since the beta. And over the years I've very much enjoyed the game, and while I think it has generally been getting better, surpassing its rough start, there have been a lot of "hiccups" along the way; changes that I think have altered the game for the worse, and should be adressed.
So I'd want to talk about class identity - what makes ESO's classes distinct from one another.
The Elder Scrolls always tried to be more freeform with classes than most RPGs. A lot of RPGs give you a strict path based on class. Consider Classic WoW for instance; "Warriors" could tank or DPS using warrior skills, and druids could heal using druid skills (and had DPS & tank builds so bad, that they really only ever healed). In the Elder Scrolls classes are more a sort of vague perks and flavours, rather than being a strict guideline. You could, if you wished, have a Templar and a Necromancer with identical skill setups and gear, by utilizing the "class-less" skill lines, such as Weapons- or Guild-skill lines.
And some of the later DLCs (Wrathstone, Elsweyr specifically) did a lot to bring out some of the less used of these "free for all" skills: Degeneration/Entropy became a main stream dot, and Soul Trap suddenly found use in a lot of builds, alongside the already popular weapon skills such as "Elemental Wall" or "Volley".
This is both good and bad. It's good because it allows for a great degree of freedom. If you play a Sorcerer, you don't have to be a spell-slinging, daedra-summoning, Mages Guild bookwork. You can grab a couple of daggers and stab away like crazy with Dual Wield skills.
It's also a bad thing, because those common skills are so absurdly good, or "meta", that they're automatically included in most builds, so that in "serious" PVE setups, the difference between a Templar, Sorcerer, and Nightblade usually comes down to two or three skills. For instance, a good deal of stamina builds nowadays will follow a pattern pretty much like this:
Bar 1: Rearming Trap --- Rending Slashes --- Actual Class spammable! --- Execute skill* - A class dot!? (or another FG skill, for passive) --- Flawless Dawnbreaker
Bar 2: Poison Injection --- Volley --- Rearming Trap (again, for Fighter's Guild passive) --- Soul Trap --- Resolving Vigor --- Ballista
And fret not, if you haven't got a Class spammable or Execute you like, you can just use a Dual-Wield or Two-hand skill in either case.
I know there are many exceptions to the above (my favourite Stamplar build at the moment does uses volley, but otherwise consists off maximum uptime of Jabs+PotL), but you must admit that Volley, Poison Injection, Rearming Trap are nigh omnipresent. And they all seem to be wearing Lokkesitz+Relequen with a Maelstrom Bow on backbar.
Magicka builds aren't much better. Aside from sets being used almost unanimously (False God, Siroria, Mother's Sorrow will work for any magicka DD), theres a couple of totally ubiquitous parts:
The Elemental Weapon spammable, and the Maelstrom Inferno Staff + Wall of Fire combo. These two tools are so staggeringly ahead of the curve that any magicka DPS build which omits them, is only doing so to be smug about not using them (sort of like people saying they no longer use social media).
And it's not that there aren't good class-spambles in the mix: Molten Whip, or Templars' Puncturing Sweep are both good, and rather iconic for their classes. But a. They're not that much better than Elemental Weapon and b. They're close range, and then you might as well be Stamina.
And speaking of Stamina; it's a bit of a miss that they're exclusively melee, and bow/bow is a joke (outside of PVP). Bows in ESO's PVE exist almost exlusively to fire Poison Injection and a Maelstrom-Bow volley from point-blank range.*
I think this is rather sad... and I honestly believe that skills like Elemental Weapon, and the universal Maelstrom+Volley/Wall need a slight nerf to open up for more variety (read what I wrote: not "nerfed to absolutely uselessness", just slight nerf to encourage other options).
Now I'm generally against nerfing things for being too popular, as it's often better to just buff the alternatives. But you also have to be careful with buffing; buffing Molten Whip or Force Pulse might inadvertedly make some PVP build overpowered, so you'll have to get creative (but there are plenty of ways to make a strong PVE spell/set without accidentally upsetting PVP meta).
In the case of PVP I think class diversity is at a much healthier stage. Nightblades weave in and out of stealth, slashing and stabbing (pretty much what you'd think a Nightblade would be doing); Templars lock down an area with Cleansing Ritual and Runes and jab the devil out of anyone that gets close, Sorcs zip around at lightning speed (excuse the pun, sorry), and (magicka) Dragonknights get a lot of mileage out of iconic class skills like Wings, Flame Lash and, of course, Dragon Leap.
In PVP you can usually tell which class you're against within 5 seconds of fighting. In PVE, you could spend a lot of time looking at a Magicka DD, and never see anything but Elemental Weapon, Trap, Elements, and a Mages guild skill or two.
*here's a footnoted suggestion, because most people will hate it: Give bow skills a minimum range. Split Stamina DDs into melee (could be Twohand/Dual-wield builds) and bow/bow ranged builds. Needs a lot of work; but would certainly spice things up.... And give a counter to those annoying bow gank builds in PVP...[/spoiler]
Items, sets, and farming - and a possible solution
P.s. This is part of a larger post I made on several issues in the game, and my (hubris heavy) suggestions for solutions. That thread became quite large and "ranting", so I've broken it up into bits, and put them in more appropiate forums.
So I'd want to talk about class identity - what makes ESO's classes distinct from one another.
The Elder Scrolls always tried to be more freeform with classes than most RPGs. A lot of RPGs give you a strict path based on class. Consider Classic WoW for instance; "Warriors" could tank or DPS using warrior skills, and druids could heal using druid skills (and had DPS & tank builds so bad, that they really only ever healed). In the Elder Scrolls classes are more a sort of vague perks and flavours, rather than being a strict guideline. You could, if you wished, have a Templar and a Necromancer with identical skill setups and gear, by utilizing the "class-less" skill lines, such as Weapons- or Guild-skill lines.
And some of the later DLCs (Wrathstone, Elsweyr specifically) did a lot to bring out some of the less used of these "free for all" skills: Degeneration/Entropy became a main stream dot, and Soul Trap suddenly found use in a lot of builds, alongside the already popular weapon skills such as "Elemental Wall" or "Volley".
This is both good and bad. It's good because it allows for a great degree of freedom. If you play a Sorcerer, you don't have to be a spell-slinging, daedra-summoning, Mages Guild bookwork. You can grab a couple of daggers and stab away like crazy with Dual Wield skills.
It's also a bad thing, because those common skills are so absurdly good, or "meta", that they're automatically included in most builds, so that in "serious" PVE setups, the difference between a Templar, Sorcerer, and Nightblade usually comes down to two or three skills. For instance, a good deal of stamina builds nowadays will follow a pattern pretty much like this:
Bar 1: Rearming Trap --- Rending Slashes --- Actual Class spammable! --- Execute skill* - A class dot!? (or another FG skill, for passive) --- Flawless Dawnbreaker
Bar 2: Poison Injection --- Volley --- Rearming Trap (again, for Fighter's Guild passive) --- Soul Trap --- Resolving Vigor --- Ballista
And fret not, if you haven't got a Class spammable or Execute you like, you can just use a Dual-Wield or Two-hand skill in either case.
I know there are many exceptions to the above (my favourite Stamplar build at the moment does uses volley, but otherwise consists off maximum uptime of Jabs+PotL), but you must admit that Volley, Poison Injection, Rearming Trap are nigh omnipresent. And they all seem to be wearing Lokkesitz+Relequen with a Maelstrom Bow on backbar.
Magicka builds aren't much better. Aside from sets being used almost unanimously (False God, Siroria, Mother's Sorrow will work for any magicka DD), theres a couple of totally ubiquitous parts:
The Elemental Weapon spammable, and the Maelstrom Inferno Staff + Wall of Fire combo. These two tools are so staggeringly ahead of the curve that any magicka DPS build which omits them, is only doing so to be smug about not using them (sort of like people saying they no longer use social media).
And it's not that there aren't good class-spambles in the mix: Molten Whip, or Templars' Puncturing Sweep are both good, and rather iconic for their classes. But a. They're not that much better than Elemental Weapon and b. They're close range, and then you might as well be Stamina.
And speaking of Stamina; it's a bit of a miss that they're exclusively melee, and bow/bow is a joke (outside of PVP). Bows in ESO's PVE exist almost exlusively to fire Poison Injection and a Maelstrom-Bow volley from point-blank range.*
I think this is rather sad... and I honestly believe that skills like Elemental Weapon, and the universal Maelstrom+Volley/Wall need a slight nerf to open up for more variety (read what I wrote: not "nerfed to absolutely uselessness", just slight nerf to encourage other options).
Now I'm generally against nerfing things for being too popular, as it's often better to just buff the alternatives. But you also have to be careful with buffing; buffing Molten Whip or Force Pulse might inadvertedly make some PVP build overpowered, so you'll have to get creative (but there are plenty of ways to make a strong PVE spell/set without accidentally upsetting PVP meta).
In the case of PVP I think class diversity is at a much healthier stage. Nightblades weave in and out of stealth, slashing and stabbing (pretty much what you'd think a Nightblade would be doing); Templars lock down an area with Cleansing Ritual and Runes and jab the devil out of anyone that gets close, Sorcs zip around at lightning speed (excuse the pun, sorry), and (magicka) Dragonknights get a lot of mileage out of iconic class skills like Wings, Flame Lash and, of course, Dragon Leap.
In PVP you can usually tell which class you're against within 5 seconds of fighting. In PVE, you could spend a lot of time looking at a Magicka DD, and never see anything but Elemental Weapon, Trap, Elements, and a Mages guild skill or two.
*here's a footnoted suggestion, because most people will hate it: Give bow skills a minimum range. Split Stamina DDs into melee (could be Twohand/Dual-wield builds) and bow/bow ranged builds. Needs a lot of work; but would certainly spice things up.... And give a counter to those annoying bow gank builds in PVP...[/spoiler]
Items, sets, and farming - and a possible solution
Now, I mentioned earlier that ESO has no "wow!" items. Virtually any set or specific item can be farmed fairly easily (especially since Perfected versions of Sunspire sets don't even require hardmode), or simply crafted or purchased off of a Guild Store. The (arguably) hardest items to obtain are the Perfected Asylum weapons, as they require a full hardmode of Asylum Sanctorium - that is, unless you happen to get them from weekly rewards - the issue with that is, of course, that they're mostly useless nowadays.
Don't get me wrong; I actually very much like much of the itemisation in ESO. "Set items" are readily available and intrinsic to build design, overland zones always have their own sets, crafting is actually relevant (in many games it's nothing but a shoddy stepping stone to dungeon/Raid gear, which is often the only place to find "sets") with several worthwhile sets.
And sure; there's also a lot of gimicky, useless, or downright stupid sets... but that's alright, because there's so much to choose from any way.
I say there are a lot of sets to choose from, and indeed there are. But "meta" builds usually boil down to about 5 sets, and then the ever-present Maelstrom Inferno Staff and Bow.
If I say "Lokkestiz, Relequen, Siroria's, Mother's Sorrow, False God's, Maelstrom weapon" I'll have covered the gear recommendations for about 90% of damage dealer builds at the moment; regardless of class choice. Not that there aren't other choices (I managed about 60k DPS myself with the silly "Succession" set from Maelstrom), but none are quite as good, and I've even heard of guildmates who were kicked for not wearing meta sets (i.e. for experimenting).
You could shake up the meta by nerfing these sets, but that's a horribly stupid solution. Besides; players would just home in on another set; or there'd be a new DLC with a better one... You might argue that "one set will always be best" but it doesn't have to be like that, at least not by such a large margin.
I think I've made it clear through this rant that a. I don't like the meta of everyone using the same 2-3 sets and ability setup, and b. I don't like how most items are super easy to acquire (if you're a little lucky).
However, this would be a sad post if I didn't at least try to suggest a solution. So here goes two birds with one stone:
First; buff/change some of the least popular/most useless set. But ZOS already does this occasionally... My "big" suggestion is: Introduce rare, unique/artifact items. To clarify:
Now, to acquire these items I wish to create something new - at least new to ESO - so I'll be shamelessly taking inspiration from somethings out of Classic WoW - because people freaking loved it then, and it could work in ESO as well.
There are several ways to implement these items, so that they won't be easily farmed by just anyone. The best option as I see is to use the leaderboard. For example being in the top group for weekly Sanctum Ophidia could include a "Celestial Serpent Scale" or whatever, which is a bound item. Useless in itself, but combine 5 of them (i.e. be top group for 5 weeks) you can combine to form an item... which starts a quest. And without working out all the details, maybe you also need the help of a 9-trait crafter to create components, and farm some more stuff in another trial, etc. etc. and eventually you get to make an/a-pair of really strong items. Something like
I'm just spitballing here. And didn't want anything TOO busted.
There could also be easier ones. Like... maybe Nahviintaas Hardmode *maybe* grants 1 "scale of Alkosh", and you combine 5 or 10 of those to form
Again, I'm just spit balling here (and trying to think of something that won't be busted, should it fall into the hands of a PVP player), because you'd need several appliances of DoTs to actually achieve the full effect, which would be rare in PVP, but just a few rotations in PVE DPS.
Or maybe just "singlet" items that rarely drop from certain bosses. I'm sure there could be hundreds of different implementations in a game as big as ESO.
You could even tie some to quests. Because, let's face it, ESO's current quest rewards are typically dung. If you complete the entirety of the Main Quest, saving Tamriel, you might get an Infused Healing staff from a *** DPS set... This seems like a good place to introduce a unique weapon/armor piece, that's actually useful instead. And there'd be no complaints of "only super lucky players get this set, it's unfair," because everyone can complete the Main Quest once per character.
Of course, I'm not saying the Main Quest should give the best damn weapon in the whole game - that'd be stupid - but at least make it yield something unique and useful that could, just maybe, be used in a build some time.
These were just a few suggestions off the top of my head - take them with a grain of salt. The idea is to create items that are truly hard/time-consuming to get, that players could pride themselves on having finally gotten, and also to shake up the ubiquitous 2Monster + 5body + 5Jewelery/frontbar + Maelstrom weapon meta, and offering alternatives.
Don't get me wrong; I actually very much like much of the itemisation in ESO. "Set items" are readily available and intrinsic to build design, overland zones always have their own sets, crafting is actually relevant (in many games it's nothing but a shoddy stepping stone to dungeon/Raid gear, which is often the only place to find "sets") with several worthwhile sets.
And sure; there's also a lot of gimicky, useless, or downright stupid sets... but that's alright, because there's so much to choose from any way.
I say there are a lot of sets to choose from, and indeed there are. But "meta" builds usually boil down to about 5 sets, and then the ever-present Maelstrom Inferno Staff and Bow.
If I say "Lokkestiz, Relequen, Siroria's, Mother's Sorrow, False God's, Maelstrom weapon" I'll have covered the gear recommendations for about 90% of damage dealer builds at the moment; regardless of class choice. Not that there aren't other choices (I managed about 60k DPS myself with the silly "Succession" set from Maelstrom), but none are quite as good, and I've even heard of guildmates who were kicked for not wearing meta sets (i.e. for experimenting).
You could shake up the meta by nerfing these sets, but that's a horribly stupid solution. Besides; players would just home in on another set; or there'd be a new DLC with a better one... You might argue that "one set will always be best" but it doesn't have to be like that, at least not by such a large margin.
I think I've made it clear through this rant that a. I don't like the meta of everyone using the same 2-3 sets and ability setup, and b. I don't like how most items are super easy to acquire (if you're a little lucky).
However, this would be a sad post if I didn't at least try to suggest a solution. So here goes two birds with one stone:
First; buff/change some of the least popular/most useless set. But ZOS already does this occasionally... My "big" suggestion is: Introduce rare, unique/artifact items. To clarify:
- Do I mean overpowered items that make you godlike? No, of course not.
- Do I mean unique items that are challenging/time-consuming to acquire and offer an improved, or at least alternate way to build your character? Yes!
Now, to acquire these items I wish to create something new - at least new to ESO - so I'll be shamelessly taking inspiration from somethings out of Classic WoW - because people freaking loved it then, and it could work in ESO as well.
There are several ways to implement these items, so that they won't be easily farmed by just anyone. The best option as I see is to use the leaderboard. For example being in the top group for weekly Sanctum Ophidia could include a "Celestial Serpent Scale" or whatever, which is a bound item. Useless in itself, but combine 5 of them (i.e. be top group for 5 weeks) you can combine to form an item... which starts a quest. And without working out all the details, maybe you also need the help of a 9-trait crafter to create components, and farm some more stuff in another trial, etc. etc. and eventually you get to make an/a-pair of really strong items. Something like
"Celestial Fangs" - twin daggers - Nirnhoned, Precise or Sharpened trait
(2)-piece set bonus - 300 stamina. Applying a Physical, Poison, or Disease damage over time ability grants a stack of Draconic Focus, increasing weapon crit by 520 for 10 seconds, up to 10 stacks. Upon reaching 10 stacks, also gain Major Berserk.
I'm just spitballing here. And didn't want anything TOO busted.
There could also be easier ones. Like... maybe Nahviintaas Hardmode *maybe* grants 1 "scale of Alkosh", and you combine 5 or 10 of those to form
"Golden Scales of Alkosh" - Chest piece, Heavy - Tri-stat enchant, Infused trait
(1)-piece set bonus -
Whenever you restore Stamina or Magicka from a Synergy, restore half as much to 5 nearby group members
Taunting an enemy grants Major Slayer to up to 11 nearby group members for 5 seconds. This can occur once every 15 seconds.
Again, I'm just spit balling here (and trying to think of something that won't be busted, should it fall into the hands of a PVP player), because you'd need several appliances of DoTs to actually achieve the full effect, which would be rare in PVP, but just a few rotations in PVE DPS.
Or maybe just "singlet" items that rarely drop from certain bosses. I'm sure there could be hundreds of different implementations in a game as big as ESO.
You could even tie some to quests. Because, let's face it, ESO's current quest rewards are typically dung. If you complete the entirety of the Main Quest, saving Tamriel, you might get an Infused Healing staff from a *** DPS set... This seems like a good place to introduce a unique weapon/armor piece, that's actually useful instead. And there'd be no complaints of "only super lucky players get this set, it's unfair," because everyone can complete the Main Quest once per character.
Of course, I'm not saying the Main Quest should give the best damn weapon in the whole game - that'd be stupid - but at least make it yield something unique and useful that could, just maybe, be used in a build some time.
These were just a few suggestions off the top of my head - take them with a grain of salt. The idea is to create items that are truly hard/time-consuming to get, that players could pride themselves on having finally gotten, and also to shake up the ubiquitous 2Monster + 5body + 5Jewelery/frontbar + Maelstrom weapon meta, and offering alternatives.
P.s. This is part of a larger post I made on several issues in the game, and my (hubris heavy) suggestions for solutions. That thread became quite large and "ranting", so I've broken it up into bits, and put them in more appropiate forums.
I think it is central to ESO's well-being to critique the developers when they change the game (or fail to change something).
But the negativity can be exhausting, so I vow to post 50/50 negativity and appreciation.
But the negativity can be exhausting, so I vow to post 50/50 negativity and appreciation.
1
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thadjarvis✭✭✭✭Some class sets are peaking out: Deadly, Elfbane potentially, and on some mag's outside of high warhorn uptime (coordinated trials) not all classes necessarily do best on the same OL set (Asylum builds good too). It's not all always Maelstrom; some use Master.
Make a great point and more differentiation hopefully increases, but it's much better than early last year or during Scalebreaker when looking at skill bars across classes.
EG take a look at StamDK, StamCro and Stamplar's skill bars particularly front bar (time most spent).0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Hm. I'm a bit torn on this. While I agree that class uniqueness is surely lacking I'm against nerfing generic skills. Why?
Because a. nobody would use them if their class kit is the better choice every time and b. not every class has the option to forgoe general skills and use only class skills. While this currently sets off a. it also means a dire nerf to these classes. And if you'd create better class options for them than issue a. kicks in again.
Try building a stam sorc without generic skills. Or imagine how they'd work currently with gen skills nerfed.1 -
Woodenplank✭✭✭✭thadjarvis wrote: »Some class sets are peaking out: Deadly, Elfbane potentially, and on some mag's outside of high warhorn uptime (coordinated trials) not all classes necessarily do best on the same OL set (Asylum builds good too). It's not all always Maelstrom; some use Master.
Make a great point and more differentiation hopefully increases, but it's much better than early last year or during Scalebreaker when looking at skill bars across classes.
EG take a look at StamDK, StamCro and Stamplar's skill bars particularly front bar (time most spent).
Yeah, Deadly set is what I currently use on my Stamplar, and it does fairly well - but I still use Relequen with it. The issue is; it's not better than Lokkestiz, and that's the case for most Stam classes. Lokkestiz+Relequen might not be the only option; but it's pretty much the best regardless.
A skill availability is, of course, also an issue. It's actually something I wanted to address in the post, but I was already writing waaay too much.
Some skills/morphs could use some more variety, for sure. Here's two good and one bad example:
Fighter's Guild - Silver Bolts - GOOD- Silver Shards - Adds an AoE-damage component
- Silver Leash - Decreases damage, but pulls the enemy to you and snares them.
Although made on the same base; one morph increases DPS capabilities while the other makes it a tank/utility skill. A very big difference.
Nightblade - Assassin's Blade - GOOD- Impale - Continues being a magicka skill, but can now be used for ranged! Allowing you to stand a distance away with all the other cool magicka kids.
- Killer's Blade - Converts to a stamina ability
Templar - Sun Fire - BAD- Vampire's Bane - Damage over time lasts slightly longer
- Reflective Light - Can hit 2 additional enemies, for a bit of AoE damage
Why not make one of them a stamina ability? Or a healer ability? Or a tank ability? Instead of giving you two almost identical magicka DoTs.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Because a. nobody would use them if their class kit is the better choice every time and b. not every class has the option to forgoe general skills and use only class skills. While this currently sets off a. it also means a dire nerf to these classes. And if you'd create better class options for them than issue a. kicks in again.
Again, I'm not saying nerf Wall of Elements/Maelstrom or Volley/Maelstrom to Oblivion. Of course not.
But surely there must be some point, even if it's hard to find, where a Magicka DD could slot a class skill on back bar, and use a different set (either doing 5/5 on backbar as well, or something new) and still do comparable DPS.
The issue is that right now the Maelstrom+Wall doesn't really have any peers. If you wanted an alternate "back-bar 2piece" the only other option (for magicka) is Blackrose Staff (Which is for AoE damage) or Master's Staff and Destructive Clench, which even for single-target rotations is nowhere near as good.
Instead of nerfing, ZOS could just introduce more sets that work well on backbar.
The issue being that, once again, those would likely just buff a certain non-class skill, and we're screwed over again.
So wild suggestion: Make class-specific sets? Something that can be unlocked through a (difficult) Class Quest-line. Off the top of my head:
Staff of Twisted Shadows - Inferno staff, Precise, Nightblades ONLY
(2) - 1024 magicka, 186 spell power. When standing on your Twisting Path, gain Minor Berserk. When standing on Refreshing Path, gain Minor Mending
(Last line just so healers don't feel left out). I'm not saying this would necessarily beat Maelstrom+Wall, but it's an alternative.
Also, some players might want both this new set, and staff, and we could see people maybe dropping monster set and going 2x5/5 on body.
It's just a suggestion.Edited by Woodenplank on January 24, 2020 2:42PMI think it is central to ESO's well-being to critique the developers when they change the game (or fail to change something).
But the negativity can be exhausting, so I vow to post 50/50 negativity and appreciation.1 -
zvavi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Woodenplank wrote: »So wild suggestion: Make class-specific sets? Something that can be unlocked through a (difficult) Class Quest-line. Off the top of my head:
Staff of Twisted Shadows - Inferno staff, Precise, Nightblades ONLY
(2) - 1024 magicka, 186 spell power. When standing on your Twisting Path, gain Minor Berserk. When standing on Refreshing Path, gain Minor Mending
(Last line just so healers don't feel left out). I'm not saying this would necessarily beat Maelstrom+Wall, but it's an alternative.
Also, some players might want both this new set, and staff, and we could see people maybe dropping monster set and going 2x5/5 on body.
It's just a suggestion.
Sounds like a good idea overall, but still not strong enough to swap out vMA staff. (Especially in trial where you get berserk from healers anyway). I think that specific Class items are welllllll overdue, and mythic is a very good time to implement it (hehe) with different group buffs for different classes and skills. Making it that way will get group variety (even though z'en for mag or two in group will higher group dps but trial groups still dont run cause dps are selfish)0 -
Woodenplank✭✭✭✭
Sounds like a good idea overall, but still not strong enough to swap out vMA staff. (Especially in trial where you get berserk from healers anyway).
I think that specific Class items are welllllll overdue, and mythic is a very good time to implement it (hehe) with different group buffs for different classes and skills. Making it that way will get group variety (even though z'en for mag or two in group will higher group dps but trial groups still dont run cause dps are selfish)
Right, I was just thinking of something off the top of my head. Maybe should've thought a little harder.
But something like "enemies standing in your Dark Path take 5% more damage from Magic" would work I think. Kind of like a Nightblade version of DK's Engulfing Flames - and one that magplars, for instance, would love to have in their group I'm sure.
(In case it wasn't obvious, I like your idea of introducing (more) unique buffs/abilities special to each class; which is what I tried incorporate in the new suggestion)
I think it is central to ESO's well-being to critique the developers when they change the game (or fail to change something).
But the negativity can be exhausting, so I vow to post 50/50 negativity and appreciation.0 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭What would be nice if all classes were created equal but if that was the cases the game would be vanilla and all class abilities, rotation, etc... would be vanilla and IMO vanilla ice cream is boring therefore vanilla anything in a game is boring.
This game has more variety than you realize. My friend is creating a very unique build. And he is having a blast with it and even runs dungeons with it. He averages around 50K DPS and yeah he should be doing more but he likes how it plays. It's a true role play type of character but he still does decent damage.
The problem with many so called builds is that they all focus on the meta and take out the play your way philosophy that ESO has. It is sad that ESO has so many ways to play a character but most players don't tinker do to others stating this is the meta and how you should build your character we tested it. It ruins the fun one might have just tinkering on their own.
I always read the meta for my main and build up my main to be effective for group play. Once I get main character stats/gear, etc... locked down my alts are built for fun such as a role playing sneaky thief character that is all about not being seen, etc... those are the type of characters that I enjoy moreso than the meta builds.
I mainly keep my main as a meta as that is the character I prefer to run in group content. I may make a 2nd character and try to get them up to meta standard but usually can't do to time and lack of in game resources.
For instance, right now my main is far from being a meta build. I'm using what I have until I can get my hands on better gear. The only pieces I have that would be classified as meta are the head and shoulder pieces. Everything else is a work in progress.
If my main was all done with gearing up; I would be creating all sorts of fun character builds that are very niche or very much for role playing.Edited by MEBengalsFan2001 on January 24, 2020 9:47PM1 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »What would be nice if all classes were created equal but if that was the cases the game would be vanilla and all class abilities, rotation, etc... would be vanilla and IMO vanilla ice cream is boring therefore vanilla anything in a game is boring.
This game has more variety than you realize. My friend is creating a very unique build. And he is having a blast with it and even runs dungeons with it. He averages around 50K DPS and yeah he should be doing more but he likes how it plays. It's a true role play type of character but he still does decent damage.
The problem with many so called builds is that they all focus on the meta and take out the play your way philosophy that ESO has. It is sad that ESO has so many ways to play a character but most players don't tinker do to others stating this is the meta and how you should build your character we tested it. It ruins the fun one might have just tinkering on their own.
I always read the meta for my main and build up my main to be effective for group play. Once I get main character stats/gear, etc... locked down my alts are built for fun such as a role playing sneaky thief character that is all about not being seen, etc... those are the type of characters that I enjoy moreso than the meta builds.
I mainly keep my main as a meta as that is the character I prefer to run in group content. I may make a 2nd character and try to get them up to meta standard but usually can't do to time and lack of in game resources.
For instance, right now my main is far from being a meta build. I'm using what I have until I can get my hands on better gear. The only pieces I have that would be classified as meta are the head and shoulder pieces. Everything else is a work in progress.
If my main was all done with gearing up; I would be creating all sorts of fun character builds that are very niche or very much for role playing.
Yea, there’s a ton of build variety in pvp. In pve it comes down to which is mathematically best so there’s only one but pvp is different.
I like how it is now. You can go the standard sets and know it’ll work, or do something funky and experiment. It makes it good for people who just want to know what to wear to start playing, and deep for those who like to tinker.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
Condemned and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭When you bring up skills like Hail specifically, it's very important to remember that Stamina DPS literally don't have a class ground-based AoE alternative. They did away with Caltrops in PVE which was a net good and I approved of that change, but if Stam is only going to have one ground-based DoT, it has to stay good.0 -
RavenSworn✭✭✭✭✭I like your idea of having class specific sets since this adds more power to class, rather than just power across the board.
What I think, and theorize, is that ZoS needs to clamp down an identity for each class and stick to it. When an identity has been given, playing how the players want then ends up being a proper conscious choice between "do I want to enhance this class identity or do I want to complement it?"
Here's an example of what I theory craft for an identity:
Dragon knights are all about being able to take a hit and dealing attritional warfare, be it magicka (fire) or stamina (poison). I would enhance the capabilities of the DK to be able to deal constant pressure while being able to take direct damage themselves.
My changes for this class? Make the DoTs from the Ardent Flame skill line un-cleansable. This means the DoTs from searing strike and fiery breath only. This can come in the searing heat passive or warmth (though I like this passive in terms of pvp).
The other change is for Magma Shell (the magicka morph) to be casted on the nearest lowest health ally or yourself. This further enhances the identity of a DK healer that gives their strong mitigation for their allies.
Just my thoughts.Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.
Of Wolf and Raven
Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!0 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You're overlooking something here.. wall of elements and volley are and will always be used as back bar options because they help proc your bar back enchantment off cooldown.
So no, nerfing them won't change anything. It will just make them crappier than they already are after the nerfs they received within the past dlc or 2. It's just going to make them much worse, most notably volley since it's the only major aoe dot stamina classes get. Now that caltrops was nerfed, most people have replaced it with soul trap. Saves on main resource and gives sustain from if you get the single target morph.
Dw and 2h got their own version of these. Dw has deadly cloak to proc enchantments and 2h has stampede, making them more competitive for people who want to use an all melee setup.
Many DPS builds have actually dropped poison injection.. yay... Class identity. They dropped it because it's sometimes not worth it in a rotation.
I do like class specific gear as an idea and could see that working as a back bar weapon option, that would be cool.
The second thing is giving dw and 2h better back bar options that are more competitive vs master bow/vma now.
Magicka just needs a new weapon already, the best thing they could do is allowing sorcs and wardens to get more use out of their respective elements, giving more incentive to use a frost or shock staff. Warden is seeing these changes slowly. Their 6% ice/magic damage was bumped up to 10%. They also just got +10% Crit damage to enemies recently affected by the chilled proc.
Changes like wardens passives are another way to siphon people into unique builds and abilities. It's very sad that sorcs don't see use in shock staves even though they're suppose to be good with shock damage. It's a combination of a weak passive 5% to shock and CP diluting all damage types. The power should be given back to the class passives.
Sets are the other method. I was a strong supporter of elfbane for DKs, I'm so happy to see it was buffed. Similar sets could be made that buff specific playstyles, making them work for everyone, but more competitive for certain classes.
PC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit1 -
Woodenplank✭✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »When you bring up skills like Hail specifically, it's very important to remember that Stamina DPS literally don't have a class ground-based AoE alternative. They did away with Caltrops in PVE which was a net good and I approved of that change, but if Stam is only going to have one ground-based DoT, it has to stay good.
I was thinking; maybe the "other morph of Trap Beast" Lightweight Beast Trap could be reworked. So Magicka DDs might keep the Barbed Trap for Minor Force Uptime, and the other could be reworked into a throwable "poison trap" that releases AoE poison when triggered - i.e. making it an ranged, ground AoE for stam DDs.MashmalloMan wrote: »Changes like wardens passives are another way to siphon people into unique builds and abilities. It's very sad that sorcs don't see use in shock staves even though they're suppose to be good with shock damage. It's a combination of a weak passive 5% to shock and CP diluting all damage types. The power should be given back to the class passives.
Yeah, it's a bit of a shame that even ostensibly strong "shock" sets like Netch's Touch ([5]-400 Spell Power to Shock spells) doesn't see use at all, because everyone is riding the double-inferno staff bandwagon - not saying I blame people for doing, it's only reasonable seeing as its best.
But yeah, it's rather strange that lightning staves in PVE are almost exclusively used by tanks.MashmalloMan wrote: »I do like class specific gear as an idea and could see that working as a back bar weapon option, that would be cool.
[...]
Sets are the other method. I was a strong supporter of elfbane for DKs, I'm so happy to see it was buffed. Similar sets could be made that buff specific playstyles, making them work for everyone, but more competitive for certain classes.
Yes, and as I said I think nerfing is generally a bad idea, and it's better to just make some alternatives - that also helps incite variety, rather than just shifting meta towards something else.
And that's exactly what this thread was about; working out alternatives. And I think Class-specific sets or, at the very least, class "tuned" sets (like Elf Bane) is a great idea.
You have to be careful in making them though. Burning Spellweave was sort of a Mag-DK set, proc'ing off flame spell damage. But ZOS overtuned it to the point where every magicka build was using it a for a while.
But yes, Elf Bane is a pretty good example, and even synergizes with a lot of other meta sets (Zaan and Valkyn Skoria, for instance).
I think it is central to ESO's well-being to critique the developers when they change the game (or fail to change something).
But the negativity can be exhausting, so I vow to post 50/50 negativity and appreciation.0