Dungeon Mode for Story Bosses

Iccotak

EDIT: This Post was heavily Updated to focus on specifically on one idea since there are other Posts & Polls discussing "Solo mode"
Full detail Thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/509067/solo-group-settings-play-the-way-you-want

If ZOS wants to integrate Dungeons into the story and so many players want a Solo story mode for Dungeons then what about the players that want more PvE Group content in the story?

Let's have a system that allows both playstyles throughout the game and doesn't feel like an unfair trade to either side. Give both sides a Story & a Final Boss fight to look forward to
- solo playstyle to follow the year long story arc (at a cost of dungeon specific loot)
- an MMO play-style where players can work together throughout the year to beat the main story for epic rewards

The Developers already said that they want to make the Dungeons more involved in the story and the Final Boss lairs were basically Dungeons on easy mode so then they could be soloed.
Those Final Boss fights will be utilized as dungeons that have a setting of;
Solo, Group, and Group Veteran
It would still be an epic conclusion that the Season was building up to as well as a challenging repeatable activity with sets players could obtain.

Final Boss Dungeons: Repeatable activities that players unlock as they play the Main Story of the Base game & DLCs. Like other DLC dungeons players can obtain set items, achievements, and unique rewards should the player choose the group setting

Example: For the Veteran Group Dungeon version of Dragonhold players could earn:
- Nahfahlar theme Helmet + Shoulder
- Nahfahlar Imp pet.

These Dungeons will get their own tab in the Dungeon Finder because they are unlocked by playing the story which would be a road block for Undaunted Pledges.

List of Story Boss Dungeons

Planemeld

Dungeon: Vault of Kings - Help Sai Sahan obtain the Amulet of Kings before Mannimarco

Dungeon: The God of Schemes - Make your way to Molag Bal and defeat the God of Schemes

Daedric War

Dungeon: The Clockwork Vault - Defeat Barbas in the Clockwork City to restore Vivec

Dungeon: Cogitum Centralis - Find the Shadow of Sotha Sil and stop him before the Clockwork city is lost forever

Dungeon: The Crystal Tower - stop Nocturnal before she uses the tower to remake reality.

Murkmire

Dungeon: Vakka-Bok Xanmeer - Prevent Kassandra from acquiring the Remnant of Argon

Season of the Dragon

Dungeon: Jode's Core - defend Jode's core and defeat Mulaamnir

Dungeon: Doomstone Keep - Assist Nahfahlar end a feud with Laatvulon and save Elsweyr

Dungeon: "Dragonhold" - Journey to Dragonhold and Defeat Kaalgrontiid to save Tamriel

Undaunted: Main Story Weekly
At the Undaunted Camp meet a mysterious Argonian character known as (NAME) he seems to have something important to tell you. He will tell you a cryptic message of your destiny and you must go out and face it.

The Argonian will cycle story line bosses every week. This covers the Base game, Daedric War, Season of the Dragon, and the upcoming Dark Heart of Skyrim

Iccotak

I want this

Old outdated

"Upon completing the Dungeon Quest players earn a green tier set item from a loot pool of two items reward from the main NPC involved in the story.
(incentive - if you want the rest of the set then play the group dungeon)"

So at the end of a solo dungeon quest; a player can earn one item that is part of a set upon completion of the quest but they can never get more than two pieces of a set no matter how many times they play Solo.
This is to act as incentive to participate in group dungeons but never enough to be able farm the solo dungeon to get a full set

witchdoctor

I do not see the point of this

I genuinely would not care if they added a solo mode (although I think it would be a waste of resources), but if they did there should absolutely be no dungeon set drops.

It should have overland set drops as per the zone it is found, and by the same rules as a public dungeon or delve. Perhaps bound so as not to flood the market on popular sets.

In other words, Automaton would not drop in Darkshade Caverns (Solo). Instead, MS would, similar to how it drops in Forgotten Crypts.

MattT1988

Your a couple of days late champ. There’s already a recent poll:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508738/story-mode-dungeons-do-we-want-them#latest

Iccotak

I want this

witchdoctor wrote: »

I genuinely would not care if they added a solo mode (although I think it would be a waste of resources), but if they did there should absolutely be no dungeon set drops.

It should have overland set drops as per the zone it is found, and by the same rules as a public dungeon or delve. Perhaps bound so as not to flood the market on popular sets.

In other words, Automaton would not drop in Darkshade Caverns (Solo). Instead, MS would, similar to how it drops in Forgotten Crypts.

I actually like that idea more. It would work better as a quest reward for casual players since the main quests generally reward overland sets.
Would you mind if I added that to the post?

Iccotak

I want this

MattT1988 wrote: »

Your a couple of days late champ. There’s already a recent poll:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/508738/story-mode-dungeons-do-we-want-them#latest

....oh right

Dusk_Coven

other

People forget that dungeons right now are already under-rewarding for solo players.
If I solo a group dungeon right now I am getting only 1/4 of the rewards -- I am doing the work of 4 people but getting only the rewards of one.

zvavi

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

People forget that dungeons right now are already under-rewarding for solo players.
If I solo a group dungeon right now I am getting only 1/4 of the rewards -- I am doing the work of 4 people but getting only the rewards of one.

Tbh it matters only if you need a specific set that no other member needs, other than that the rewards are meh

Iccotak

I want this

@MattT1988
@witchdoctor

The post has been updated with the idea that I want to focus on. Which is group Dungeon mode for the story as fair trade for the Solo mode that players are asking for

eklhaftb16_ESO

other

I'd actually support it, it's not a bad idea and it's always nice to have more options. The story mode would totally make for a nice Maelstrom Arena-type content.
But it has even smaller chance than dungeon story mode, because it requires a lot more extra work in modelling and programming. For implementing story mode in existing dungeons, all you really need is an intern to go through dungeon scripts and remove a bit of stuff here and there. It's removing existing stuff, not adding more stuff.

Really though, all instanced content should be scaleable. Why shouldn't one be able to run raids solo? Why shouldn't one be able to run vMA in a dungeon group, or a private instance of a delve in a raid group? It's all the same content, technically: there's trash, and then there's a boss, and then there is trash, and then there's another boss, and so on. Everything else is just numbers, and numbers can be changed.

Dusk_Coven

other

Iccotak wrote: »

- solo playstyle to follow the year long story arc (at a cost of dungeon specific loot)

Sorry, this is completely wrong.

Think about four people running a Normal dungeon now. They all get 100% personal loot and let's say the difficulty they feel when they run it is "Easy" (which it generally is, for 4 persons of the correct roles, or often even just 4 dps)

If a single person doing a Solo dungeon also FEELS THE SAME DIFFICULTY then they should GET THE SAME REWARDS.

Solo doesn't necessarily mean stupidly easy. It just means you don't need a team. That's what SOLO means.
In fact, going Solo means having to manage all 3 roles of tank/heals/dps and requires MORE skill than having teammates to cover your weaknesses.

If stupidly easy means reduced rewards, then four-manning normal Fungal Grotto 1 should get you trash.

Iccotak wrote: »

- an MMO play-style where players can work together throughout the year to beat the main story for epic rewards

So... bringing high-powered friends to overpower the dungeon and carry you means you should get epic rewards?
Why should this be rewarded with essentially 4x drops (1 for each person) and Solo mode be penalized?

zShepplin

I do not see the point of this

No

Paramedicus

eklhaftb16_ESO wrote: »

Really though, all instanced content should be scaleable. Why shouldn't one be able to run raids solo? Why shouldn't one be able to run vMA in a dungeon group, or a private instance of a delve in a raid group? It's all the same content, technically: there's trash, and then there's a boss, and then there is trash, and then there's another boss, and so on. Everything else is just numbers, and numbers can be changed.

This would kill game in long term. People are social and like doing stuff in groups, but they are convenient too. Why would you waste time and money for building and learing DD character, when you could make hybrid and just solo everything? You waste lotta time farming gear, you waste lots coin on making it gold, you waste lotta time on learning your rotation, you gimp your survivability a lot so you can DPS more.. and then you go trough pain with getting into groups because support classes are less popular. Why would you deal with all that crp when you could just solo everything? I bet, that that at beginning many people would be happy, but there is one big problem with solo mode - you get bored quicker than when farming stuff with others. And inb4 "you could then go do group stuff m8". Nope, not really, because your build is a hybrid, and you can't magically make it DD/healer/tank - it takes time and resources. Prolly many people would quit before changing build/game style. Why would they stick with game that got them bored, when there are many other games? For some vague perspective of getting additional fun when playing with others? Maybe, dunno, not really?

Just keep in mind that MMOs are popular because they are massively multiplayer online games (name of this genre isn't some random words).

Iccotak

I want this

@Dusk_Coven

When talking about Solo mode I am saying Easy
Meaning that the Dungeon would as hard as a Delve or Public Dungeon, with mobs of 3-4 people and bosses that do far less damage. It would be like how Final Bosses in the story work right now. Group content should be harder

I say that because Most people I see asking for solo mode are New or Solo players that just want to follow the story that takes over the course of the year. They are not looking for anything to grind.

If you want difficult solo content then ZOS should consider making more content like Maelstrom arena as that is specifically designed for one player.

Now if you have had bad experiences with having to carry people I don't know any solution to that but I think creating a Solo mode just so you can grind the content away from other people does not encourage the social aspect of the game.

In my experience as a Tank & Support guy I like playing with other people and I really enjoy the dungeons as group content. I want content that encourages people to work together because that is part of the appeal of an MMO for me.
Not everyone that plays in a group does it because they are bad at the game.

Dusk_Coven

other

Iccotak wrote: »

When talking about Solo mode I am saying Easy
Meaning that the Dungeon would as hard as a Delve or Public Dungeon, with mobs of 3-4 people and bosses that do far less damage. It would be like how Final Bosses in the story work right now. Group content should be harder

The problem with this point of view is, normal dungeons WITH FOUR PEOPLE is already Easy and fast.
You want to make Solo mode EVEN EASIER? It's not necessary. Just make the difficulty feel the same except that only one person is required.
And I didn't say I wanted it harder. I'm just pointing out that penalizing solo players is unfair. If the difficulty feels the same then the reward should feel the same. And you have to compare your Solo dungeon with a group dungeon that is being run with FOUR people, all of whom are getting the same reward. You don't agree with equal work equal pay?

And again: Why should groups be rewarded by being able to make an easy dungeon even easier? With Solo dungeons the person wouldn't even have that option.

Dungeons are generally not a grind when you have a proper four team.
People avoid DLC dungeons not because of the mob difficulty, but because of COMPLICATED MECHANICS. That's an entirely different issue.

Iccotak wrote: »

Most people I see asking for solo mode are New or Solo players that just want to follow the story that takes over the course of the year. They are not looking for anything to grind.
…
I think creating a Solo mode just so you can grind the content away from other people does not encourage the social aspect of the game.

You just contradicted yourself here. [Removed for baiting]
As for grinding -- people group up to GRIND FASTER. [Removed for baiting]. They don't care about social. They care about rewards.

Paramedicus

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

The problem with this point of view is, normal dungeons WITH FOUR PEOPLE is already Easy and fast.
You want to make Solo mode EVEN EASIER? It's not necessary. Just make the difficulty feel the same except that only one person is required.

It s not a problem of normal dungs being too easy, but it is problem when game lures veteran players to do them (i.e. exp bonus for running random normal). Normal dungs are designed for low level players which are learning how to play. There should be 3rd difficulty option (like hm for whole dung) so 160cp+ players could leave normal dungs for newbies. I guess that DLC dungeons are supposed to work like additional layer of difficulty, but they are added to one que with base ones, which is -well, we can all agree on these one- bit tarded. I guess, ZOS did that because they were afraid that if queue for DLC and base dungs were separated, then it would be too hard to get group for DLC (?).

VaranisArano

I'd love to have the option to experience the final boss fights of quests buffed up to public or normal dungeon levels, like a base game world boss.

It wouldn't suit every one of my questing characters, but it would fill in some gaps. My leveling toons and tank could face the bosses on the normal overland difficulty, while my Damage Dealers who can solo group dungeons could face the boss at an appropriate difficulty for them.

The lack of such an option doesn't bother me so much. I tend to roleplay that, well, of course my Silencer of the Dark Brotherhood is murder on two feet and takes down quest bosses without breaking a sweat.

Dusk_Coven

other

Paramedicus wrote: »

There should be 3rd difficulty option (like hm for whole dung) so 160cp+ players could leave normal dungs for newbies.

Yes it's called Veteran Hard Mode (yeah I know the HM is only for final boss atm). There's even a whole queuing category for Veteran modes only.
Except people are just focussed on the best reward-to-time ratio so they just go for normal Fungal Grotto.
And to optimize that ratio they want to do it fast. So they fake tank/heal into a group then rush ahead as dps (jumping off the waterfall to exploit terrain and shortcut doing as much of the dungeon as they possibly can) while everyone runs after them.

ZOS should recognize that people don't really care about grouping. They care about rewards. Grouping just gets them whatever reward they want faster. That's why there's an army at Alik'r Dolmens.
The people who care about the content ZOS spends so much time creating are just getting left behind and ignored.

Iccotak

I want this

@Dusk_Coven

There is a difference between doing the content one time so then you can follow the story as opposed to grinding it for XP & gear.
Most people that are requesting Solo mode want it for the story, that's it.

I also do make friends through Dungeons & Trials - it's one of my favorite parts of the experience. Not everyone is you or has your specific play-style.

To note: In my proposal Solo would not be part of the Undaunted Dailies - if you want to complete a daily then do the group dungeon

This post is not about making it easier for you to get a better reward-to-time ratio. That is a discussion for a different thread

[Removed quote]

[Removed for baiting]

Paramedicus

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

[Yes it's called Veteran Hard Mode. There's even a whole queuing category for Veteran modes only.

Really? I didn't know that. And when I wrote that there should be 3rd option difficulty for whole dungeon and I called it HM, it was just by blind luck. Geez what a coincidence!

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

ZOS should recognize that people don't really care about grouping. They care about rewards. Grouping just gets them whatever reward they want faster.

Next logical step for ZOS should be then to turn ESO into single player game. Imagine how much money could they save by turning off servers, firing programers who code for multiplayer aspect of game, designers making group content, testers checking class balance.. Oh this list could be much longer. Maybe long enough, that with saved money ZOS could turn ESO into TES 6?! Everyone liking this idea, agree with my post: say not to Starfield - TES 6 first!!!!

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

After removing a handful of posts, we must remind everyone that all should be kept civil, constructive, and within the guidelines of the rules that we have in place. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to take a few moments to review them here.

Iccotak

I want this

max_only

other

Iccotak wrote: »

@MattT1988
@witchdoctor

The post has been updated with the idea that I want to focus on. Which is group Dungeon mode for the story as fair trade for the Solo mode that players are asking for

As players we aren’t trading anything. All we can do is suggest. There isn’t always an “us versus them”
You want the final bosses in the story to be harder, that’s a fine request. Just request that.
I still see people asking for help defeating them. The only thing that I can see happening is they put a HM scroll in at these bosses. I’m in favor of that. Extra rewards? No. The story is the reward, the challenge is the reward.

Starlock

other

It's an interesting idea.

I'm not opposed to it, but I wouldn't use it myself.

Well, I'm opposed to elements of it. I'm sick and tired enough of half the sets in the game being basically unusable for me because they are gated behind group content. Maybe if they stop making all those sets bind-on-pickup, I'd change my mind on this.

Iccotak

I want this

max_only wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

@MattT1988
@witchdoctor

The post has been updated with the idea that I want to focus on. Which is group Dungeon mode for the story as fair trade for the Solo mode that players are asking for

As players we aren’t trading anything. All we can do is suggest. There isn’t always an “us versus them”
You want the final bosses in the story to be harder, that’s a fine request. Just request that.
I still see people asking for help defeating them. The only thing that I can see happening is they put a HM scroll in at these bosses. I’m in favor of that. Extra rewards? No. The story is the reward, the challenge is the reward.

I say "fair trade"
Because I know that if I say "Story Group Final Bosses" then people will bring up solo dungeons (because that's what happened last time) so I try to propose a system that encompasses both so then it is fair.

idk

I do not see the point of this

Iccotak wrote: »

doesn't feel like an unfair trade to either side.

The idea of a single player story mode for dungeons, especially those where the story from the zone goes through them, does not hurt anyone. It does not take away from anyone's game and can only serve to enhance the game play of some players. 3

In other words it is not unfair to anyone and there is no reason to make dungeons out of regular content as the OP is basically suggesting. Further, it has a much better chance to get Zos' attention that the overly complicated and unnecessary suggesting made here.

Besides, the "trade" is irrelevant because this is not a trade situation and you really have nothing to trade in this to begin with.

Linaleah

other

I don't particularly want this for myself, but I fully support its existence for people who would enjoy the experience. i have reread the OP a few times, and it doesn't seem like it takes away anything from solo experience. it sounds like an optional way of doing things and while idea of unique rewards gives me a mixed feeling (I may or may not be still just a touch sad that i'll never be able to use those amazing dragon statues from Elsweyr in my houses), the reality is.. for most players experience for the sake of experience is not enough - they want to have a goal to work towards, and honestly, I'm not the one to judge anyone else as to how they have fun, as long as they are not hurting anyone in a process.

PrimusNephilim

I do not see the point of this

No

Iccotak

I want this

idk wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

doesn't feel like an unfair trade to either side.

The idea of a single player story mode for dungeons, especially those where the story from the zone goes through them, does not hurt anyone. It does not take away from anyone's game and can only serve to enhance the game play of some players. 3

In other words it is not unfair to anyone and there is no reason to make dungeons out of regular content as the OP is basically suggesting. Further, it has a much better chance to get Zos' attention that the overly complicated and unnecessary suggesting made here.

Besides, the "trade" is irrelevant because this is not a trade situation and you really have nothing to trade in this to begin with.

@idk
The reason I say trade is because last time I brought up the concept of "Story Group Final Bosses" a while ago people countered that it would not be fair unless dungeons got a solo mode.
So I try to propose a system that encompasses both so then both play styles feel catered to.

It's not about us vs them or "I give you this for that" - but if we are going to propose a Solo mode of existing content then why not also have a Group mode of existing content?

idk

I do not see the point of this

Iccotak wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

doesn't feel like an unfair trade to either side.

The idea of a single player story mode for dungeons, especially those where the story from the zone goes through them, does not hurt anyone. It does not take away from anyone's game and can only serve to enhance the game play of some players. 3

In other words it is not unfair to anyone and there is no reason to make dungeons out of regular content as the OP is basically suggesting. Further, it has a much better chance to get Zos' attention that the overly complicated and unnecessary suggesting made here.

Besides, the "trade" is irrelevant because this is not a trade situation and you really have nothing to trade in this to begin with.

@idk
The reason I say trade is because last time I brought up the concept of "Story Group Final Bosses" a while ago people countered that it would not be fair unless dungeons got a solo mode.
So I try to propose a system that encompasses both so then both play styles feel catered to.

It's not about us vs them or "I give you this for that" - but if we are going to propose a Solo mode of existing content then why not also have a Group mode of existing content?

You have nothing to give and they have no real say in the matter.

Iccotak

I want this

@idk

It's an idea that I think is neat - that's all. It was something I thought of when I fought Mulamniir and Kaalgrontiid.
"Wouldn't it be cool if this had a Group Dungeon Mode"
And I like collaborating with the forums.

There's no reason to be acting this way (as in being overly negative or argumentative for no apparent reason)
EDIT: I think you and I are in agreement that there is no problem with a solo mode. I am just saying it would be cool if Solo/Group mode was an option across the board from Major Story Fights to Dungeons (except for trials)