Give class-based skills with Stamina morphs the “Soul Trap treatment”?

Vaoh

Many class-based skills have strict Stamina vs Magicka build morphs. Would you like to see these skills given the “Soul Trap treatment”?

Soul Trap

Lay claim to an enemy's soul, dealing 1224 Magic Damage or 1362 Physical Damage over 10 seconds. The damage dealt is based on your highest offensive stats. Fills an empty Soul Gem if an affected enemy dies.

Soul Trap was the first skill to scale its damage type based on your highest offensive stats, allowing the player to pick a morph choice based on preference rather than Stamina vs Magicka builds.

******** Keep in mind that our offensive stats can reasonably be extended to make a skill cost Magicka or Stamina.


Skills that have strict Magicka vs Stamina morphs:

- Dragonknight: Searing Strike, Fiery Breathe, Stonefist, Dragon Leap, Magma Armor
- Sorcerer: Summon Familiar, Bound Armor, Lightning Form
- Nightblade: Death Stroke, Assassin’s Blade, Grim Focus, Veiled Strike, Teleport Strike, Drain Power
- Templar: Radial Sweep, Puncturing Strikes, Piercing Javelin, Backlash
- Warden: Feral Guardian, Dive, Scorch, Swarm, Lotus Flower, Fungal Growth
- Necromancer: Frozen Colossus, Flame Skull, Blastbones, Skeletal Mage, Shocking Siphon, Death Scythe

Example of what a rebalance could look like, in terms of the Warden class:

Lotus Flower
Current Version:
• Lotus Blossum gives Major Prophecy.
• Green Lotus gives Major Savagery.

Suggestion:
• Lotus Blossum gives Major Prophecy and Major Savagery.
• Green Lotus increases the duration and affects an additional target.

Why:
Adds space for a new morph.
———




Dive
Current Version:
• Screaming Cliff Racer increases damage based on range. Magicka scaling only.
• Cutting Dive adds a DoT effect. Stamina scaling only.

Suggestion:
• Screaming Cliff Racer increases damage based on range.
• Cutting Dive adds a DoT effect. Becomes Frigid Dive dealing Frost Damage if scaled for a Magicka cost.

Both morphs scale their damage and cost based on your highest offensive stats.

Why:
Stamden Bow builds and Magden (especially Ice Mages) get new options.
———




Scorch
Current Version:
• Deep Fissure adds Major Breach, Magicka scaling only.
• Subterranean Assault adds Major Fracture, Stamina scaling only.

Suggestion:
• Deep Fissure adds Major Breach if Magic Damage. Becomes Subterranean Assault and adds Major Fracture instead if scaled for a Stamina cost.
• Deep Freeze takes an additional second to trigger and deals an additional 40% damage as a DoT after the initial hit over 4 seconds. Deals Frost Damage. Magicka scaling only.

Deep Fissure/Subterranean Assault scale their damage and cost based on your highest offensive stats.

Why:
Deep Fissure/Sub Assault do not change. Magden (especially Ice Mages) gets a new option.
———



Feral Guardian
Current Version:
• Eternal Guardian can revive once per minute. Magic Damage only.
• Wild Guardian deals more Damage. Physical Damage only.

Suggestion:
• Eternal Guardian can revive once per minute.
• Wild Guardian deals more Damage.

Both morphs scale their damage based on your highest offensive stats.

Why:
Now there’s a choice in morphs based on player preference.

Vietfox

Yes - Change all affected class skills to scale this way.

Yes, i always thought that it didn't make any sense to not have a choice and be "forced" to pick a morph just because i had a stamina or magicka build. It's like "oh, you want to be a magicka character? Then pick these morphs. No, those ones are not for you"

Sylvermynx

Yes - Change all affected class skills to scale this way.

I never got this whole system.... over 1.5 years later I still don't.

Mr_Walker

I just want my dk to have a stamina whip!

AlnilamE

Then you might as well remove "magicka" and "stamina" from the game and just one resource called "resource"

Vaoh

Yes - Change some affected class skills to scale this way.

AlnilamE wrote: »

Then you might as well remove "magicka" and "stamina" from the game and just one resource called "resource"

Which is why they’d have to be careful. Dive as an example wouldn’t be Magicka vs Stamina anymore but rather Ranged Dps vs Small DoT/Possible Ice spammable. A morph can do one thing if Magicka, and something slightly different if Stamina (besides a Damage and Cost scaling change). It’s ZOS chance to add build variety through new morph effects. Basically like having 3-4 morphs for skills that are meant for Stam builds too.

Then there are skills like Lotus Flower where one morph gives Major Prophecy and the other gives Major Savagery - it’s already purely boring Stam vs Mag. Could funnel both buffs into one morph so the other can do something different.

Atm a lot class skills don’t have any morph *choices*, you go Mag or Stam and everything else is chosen for you. I see your point though if ZOS were to do a poor job and strictly scale all the skills with no other changes.

Nord_Raseri

Yes - Change all affected class skills to scale this way.

I have on thing to say: Rad

Nord_Raseri

Yes - Change all affected class skills to scale this way.

Also: @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler please consider this. Take a gander at least!

FierceSam

Yes - Change all affected class skills to scale this way.

AlnilamE wrote: »

Then you might as well remove "magicka" and "stamina" from the game and just one resource called "resource"

Maybe, but my choices regarding morphs should be made based on the actual effect of the morph, not restricted by whether that morph is a stamina or magicka one. My choice should be about doing different things, not two different versions of the same thing but with different resources. Otherwise we might as well rename class skills ‘magicka skills’ and weapon skills ‘stamina skills’.

If you look at Warden, for instance, there is no capacity for developing a stam Warden which actually uses Warden skills effectively as all the base skills are magicka. Even the latest class, the Necro, only pays lip service to developing a genuine class based stam character.

There is a reason why practically no stam builds use predominantly class skills and why all stam characters are fundamentally the same irrespective of class. If we want more variety in stam builds there need to be more class based options that use stam.

This might not be the best solution, but it is a better solution than the situation at the moment.

Siohwenoeht

No - Leave them all the way they are

Less homogenization not more please.

zyk

No - Leave them all the way they are

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Less homogenization not more please.

It's never going to end for ESO. It's part of the mainstreamification of gaming. TES might as well be a Disney property at this point.

MEBengalsFan2001

Yes - Change all affected class skills to scale this way.

This type of update would allow the skills morphs that currently go magika or stamina to actually have more meaningful morphs. The impacted skills should have morphs that adjut the skill focus to be direct dmg, DoT, AoE, Single target, provides a heal, improve resistance, etc... this would provide more to players for builds, not less.

I like this idea but this would be time consuming change.

Given that ESO is a MMO I'm not sure how updates are managed and if the company is constantly in CRUNCH to deliver updates. Hopefully they are not in CRUNCH mode all the time.

Tyrobag

No - Leave them all the way they are

We do NOT need more stamina casting.

Zardayne

Yes - Change all affected class skills to scale this way.

I'd also like to see Vamp and werewolf too. I hate being pigeonholed into using werewolf only on stam and vice versa.

Starlock

Other

It's an interesting proposition.

There are a few problems I see with it. One has already been mentioned - it removes the need for different resource pools on a significant level. Another is that it shifts what the developers call "class identity" in ways that seem opposed to their aims on that topic. There are a few advantages as well, such as opening up the option to use certain abilities for players who don't want to use them because of numbers games.

On the whole, though, I would opt for removing resource scaling entirely except for abilities that involve recovery of those resources. Your resource pools would only be exactly that - the quantity of power you have at your disposal to cast abilities related to those resource pools. The actual damage/healing they do would be governed by spell power and weapon power, as well as by CP distributions.

Vaoh

Yes - Change some affected class skills to scale this way.

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Less homogenization not more please.

zyk wrote: »

It's never going to end for ESO. It's part of the mainstreamification of gaming. TES might as well be a Disney property at this point.

The people saying No in this thread seem to be saying so because of the fear it could homogenize skills. Like if a Magicka and Stamina character used the same morph. I can see the point.

Problem is, what we currently have is homogenization. A Stamina Necro will use exactly what all Stamina Necros use - there is zero morph variety/player preference. You chose Stamina, therefore this is the list of morphs you must use. If Magicka then use the opposite morph. They are no longer based on player preference which was the original intention for them (all class-based skills were originally Magicka).

On top of this there are skills that are legit as boring as possible because of Stamina vs Magicka morphs. A prime example is Lotus Flower which has one morph giving Major Savagery and the other giving Major Prophecy. Same exact skill, opposite buff.

The purpose would to create morph variety because atm there is none for these skills. It also opens up morph spaces for certain playstyles that have been highly requested for awhile (Ice Mage Magden, etc).

lagrue

Yes - Change all affected class skills to scale this way.

Vaoh wrote: »

Many class-based skills have strict Stamina vs Magicka build morphs. Would you like to see these skills given the “Soul Trap treatment”?

Absolutely. To me the only place Stamina/Magicka scaling should actually matter is weapons themselves, and then weapon and armor skills imo...

The distinguishing factor of what morph you want on class abilities shouldn't come down to which resource you use, but as of now , that's exactly how it is. I'd rather the mechanics of the morph to be the real deciding factor. Sometimes you morph an ability and you want the one contrary to your resources, but due to how this game shoehorns players into pooling everything into just 1, it becomes a bad choice.

The entire system is too strict.

Maybe drastic I actually think this should tie in to a greater change in how we cast in general. I don't like skills you can only cast with stamina on magicka toons and vice versa. We should have more choice in what pool we cast from etc. I don't even think it should be automatic like Soul Trap where it just takes the highest value - it should actually be something the player can manually set.

Siohwenoeht

No - Leave them all the way they are

Vaoh wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Less homogenization not more please.

zyk wrote: »

It's never going to end for ESO. It's part of the mainstreamification of gaming. TES might as well be a Disney property at this point.

The people saying No in this thread seem to be saying so because of the fear it could homogenize skills. Like if a Magicka and Stamina character used the same morph. I can see the point.

Problem is, what we currently have is homogenization. A Stamina Necro will use exactly what all Stamina Necros use - there is zero morph variety/player preference. You chose Stamina, therefore this is the list of morphs you must use. If Magicka then use the opposite morph. They are no longer based on player preference which was the original intention for them (all class-based skills were originally Magicka).

On top of this there are skills that are legit as boring as possible because of Stamina vs Magicka morphs. A prime example is Lotus Flower which has one morph giving Major Savagery and the other giving Major Prophecy. Same exact skill, opposite buff.

The purpose would to create morph variety because atm there is none for these skills. It also opens up morph spaces for certain playstyles that have been highly requested for awhile (Ice Mage Magden, etc).

@Vaoh I understand to a point, however without wholesale changes to every ability you'd end up with only one morph of each ability run, I'd guarantee it.

On top of that, basing tooltip on highest resource is what kills this idea for me. For example, I have a heavy attack, no pet sorc build that I use dark deal on. Yes, dark DEAL.

In PVP, I hardly ever run low on mag, but with cost increase/resource drain still king, running out of Stam is a death sentence. I'll gladly spare some of my 40k+ mag for an extra dodge roll, block, or break free.

Basing tooltips on highest resource wouldn't give me the choice, I'd only use my lowest resource to regain my highest resource.

There are many other examples of builds that use Stam/mag dump abilities as well. If you're not using both resources, you're selling yourself short.

Vaoh

Yes - Change some affected class skills to scale this way.

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Less homogenization not more please.

zyk wrote: »

It's never going to end for ESO. It's part of the mainstreamification of gaming. TES might as well be a Disney property at this point.

The people saying No in this thread seem to be saying so because of the fear it could homogenize skills. Like if a Magicka and Stamina character used the same morph. I can see the point.

Problem is, what we currently have is homogenization. A Stamina Necro will use exactly what all Stamina Necros use - there is zero morph variety/player preference. You chose Stamina, therefore this is the list of morphs you must use. If Magicka then use the opposite morph. They are no longer based on player preference which was the original intention for them (all class-based skills were originally Magicka).

On top of this there are skills that are legit as boring as possible because of Stamina vs Magicka morphs. A prime example is Lotus Flower which has one morph giving Major Savagery and the other giving Major Prophecy. Same exact skill, opposite buff.

The purpose would to create morph variety because atm there is none for these skills. It also opens up morph spaces for certain playstyles that have been highly requested for awhile (Ice Mage Magden, etc).

@Vaoh I understand to a point, however without wholesale changes to every ability you'd end up with only one morph of each ability run, I'd guarantee it.

On top of that, basing tooltip on highest resource is what kills this idea for me. For example, I have a heavy attack, no pet sorc build that I use dark deal on. Yes, dark DEAL.

In PVP, I hardly ever run low on mag, but with cost increase/resource drain still king, running out of Stam is a death sentence. I'll gladly spare some of my 40k+ mag for an extra dodge roll, block, or break free.

Basing tooltips on highest resource wouldn't give me the choice, I'd only use my lowest resource to regain my highest resource.

There are many other examples of builds that use Stam/mag dump abilities as well. If you're not using both resources, you're selling yourself short.

I agree, which is why it shouldn’t be for skill like Dark Exchange/Dark Conversion/Dark Deal. There are skills that are fine as they are. In fact I left out Dark Exchange from the list of skills in my post because there’s no issue with that skill imo. Both morphs are useful whether you’re Magicka or Stamina.

The issue is with a skill like Dive, or Blastbones, where you don’t have a morph choice. There is only one route to go because you have to be Mag or Stam.

Siohwenoeht

No - Leave them all the way they are

Vaoh wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Less homogenization not more please.

zyk wrote: »

It's never going to end for ESO. It's part of the mainstreamification of gaming. TES might as well be a Disney property at this point.

The people saying No in this thread seem to be saying so because of the fear it could homogenize skills. Like if a Magicka and Stamina character used the same morph. I can see the point.

Problem is, what we currently have is homogenization. A Stamina Necro will use exactly what all Stamina Necros use - there is zero morph variety/player preference. You chose Stamina, therefore this is the list of morphs you must use. If Magicka then use the opposite morph. They are no longer based on player preference which was the original intention for them (all class-based skills were originally Magicka).

On top of this there are skills that are legit as boring as possible because of Stamina vs Magicka morphs. A prime example is Lotus Flower which has one morph giving Major Savagery and the other giving Major Prophecy. Same exact skill, opposite buff.

The purpose would to create morph variety because atm there is none for these skills. It also opens up morph spaces for certain playstyles that have been highly requested for awhile (Ice Mage Magden, etc).

@Vaoh I understand to a point, however without wholesale changes to every ability you'd end up with only one morph of each ability run, I'd guarantee it.

On top of that, basing tooltip on highest resource is what kills this idea for me. For example, I have a heavy attack, no pet sorc build that I use dark deal on. Yes, dark DEAL.

In PVP, I hardly ever run low on mag, but with cost increase/resource drain still king, running out of Stam is a death sentence. I'll gladly spare some of my 40k+ mag for an extra dodge roll, block, or break free.

Basing tooltips on highest resource wouldn't give me the choice, I'd only use my lowest resource to regain my highest resource.

There are many other examples of builds that use Stam/mag dump abilities as well. If you're not using both resources, you're selling yourself short.

I agree, which is why it shouldn’t be for skill like Dark Exchange/Dark Conversion/Dark Deal. There are skills that are fine as they are. In fact I left out Dark Exchange from the list of skills in my post because there’s no issue with that skill imo. Both morphs are useful whether you’re Magicka or Stamina.

The issue is with a skill like Dive, or Blastbones, where you don’t have a morph choice. There is only one route to go because you have to be Mag or Stam.

So are you looking exclusively at damage/healing skills for this change? If so, what would happen to pelinal hybrid builds that sink all into on resource but have damage equal on off-resource abilities?

Or tanks that use mag and stam abilities currently?

I'm trying to understand, not refute. It just seems more complicated and while more skills would be open to both Stam or mag, doesn't that just promote homogenization? "Doesn't matter what stat you choose, all abilities do the same thing..."

Vaoh

Yes - Change some affected class skills to scale this way.

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Less homogenization not more please.

zyk wrote: »

It's never going to end for ESO. It's part of the mainstreamification of gaming. TES might as well be a Disney property at this point.

The people saying No in this thread seem to be saying so because of the fear it could homogenize skills. Like if a Magicka and Stamina character used the same morph. I can see the point.

Problem is, what we currently have is homogenization. A Stamina Necro will use exactly what all Stamina Necros use - there is zero morph variety/player preference. You chose Stamina, therefore this is the list of morphs you must use. If Magicka then use the opposite morph. They are no longer based on player preference which was the original intention for them (all class-based skills were originally Magicka).

On top of this there are skills that are legit as boring as possible because of Stamina vs Magicka morphs. A prime example is Lotus Flower which has one morph giving Major Savagery and the other giving Major Prophecy. Same exact skill, opposite buff.

The purpose would to create morph variety because atm there is none for these skills. It also opens up morph spaces for certain playstyles that have been highly requested for awhile (Ice Mage Magden, etc).

@Vaoh I understand to a point, however without wholesale changes to every ability you'd end up with only one morph of each ability run, I'd guarantee it.

On top of that, basing tooltip on highest resource is what kills this idea for me. For example, I have a heavy attack, no pet sorc build that I use dark deal on. Yes, dark DEAL.

In PVP, I hardly ever run low on mag, but with cost increase/resource drain still king, running out of Stam is a death sentence. I'll gladly spare some of my 40k+ mag for an extra dodge roll, block, or break free.

Basing tooltips on highest resource wouldn't give me the choice, I'd only use my lowest resource to regain my highest resource.

There are many other examples of builds that use Stam/mag dump abilities as well. If you're not using both resources, you're selling yourself short.

I agree, which is why it shouldn’t be for skill like Dark Exchange/Dark Conversion/Dark Deal. There are skills that are fine as they are. In fact I left out Dark Exchange from the list of skills in my post because there’s no issue with that skill imo. Both morphs are useful whether you’re Magicka or Stamina.

The issue is with a skill like Dive, or Blastbones, where you don’t have a morph choice. There is only one route to go because you have to be Mag or Stam.

So are you looking exclusively at damage/healing skills for this change? If so, what would happen to pelinal hybrid builds that sink all into on resource but have damage equal on off-resource abilities?

Or tanks that use mag and stam abilities currently?

I'm trying to understand, not refute. It just seems more complicated and while more skills would be open to both Stam or mag, doesn't that just promote homogenization? "Doesn't matter what stat you choose, all abilities do the same thing..."

The main point for the thread was skills that are able to scale like Soul Trap, so would be Damage/Healing. Most skills are not included in this.

There are definitely some skills (like Lotus Flower) that are purely Mag vs Stam build skills though and not in the “serves as a Mag dump for my Stam build” sort of way.... as in they could combine the current morphs with no side effects and create a new morph. This is the same issue Surge used to have - one morph granted Major Sorcery (base skill had Major Brutality) and the other morph gave a tiny bit more healing. So ZoS added Major Sorcery into the base skill and created a new morph for Sorcerer Healers to use.

The way skills scale is either from Max Mag+Spell Damage, or Max Stam+Weapon Damage. Ultimate skills currently choose whichever is highest already. Pelinal’s would be in the same situation as it is rn.

Tanks that use Mag and Stam skills would only be affected on maybe a few skills. Scorch would be one example, but it means that if a tank wants Deep Fissure (for Major Breach) then they need to build a bit more for it, where’s if you want Sub Assault (for Major Fracture) you’d build for that. And besides those there isn’t much else, hopefully it could even incentivize bringing a Warden DPS lol.

Doing all this frees up a lot of morph slots. More DPS morphs to increase build variety, and maybe some extra tank/healing morphs could be put in.

ealdwin

Yes - Change some affected class skills to scale this way.

I think it would be an interesting change that would be interesting to see what effects it would have. I could certainly see it potentially opening up more options for more viability for some hybrid-ness in builds if the result was not needing to go either 100% into either Magicka or Stamina gameplay.

Psijic42

Yes - Change some affected class skills to scale this way.

This is a really well thought out post and my kudos to the author

TempPlayer

Yes - Change some affected class skills to scale this way.

All I want is more stamina heal option. The current only available choice is Stam warden healer, and even then it have some heal that relie on Magicka. Is it so outrageous that I want my toon to heal other by flexing his muscle instead of relying on something so suspicious as Magicka.

Vaoh

Yes - Change some affected class skills to scale this way.

Psijic42 wrote: »

This is a really well thought out post and my kudos to the author

Ive heard from pretty much everyone ingame who got on the topic that they really want to see this so I made a post about it Also hearing lots of how Ult cast times are terrible but we already have threads on that.

The people opposed to this are worried about homogenization which is valid because in reality it is ZOS who implements things. Worst case scenario is they may only change scaling and nothing else (doubt it lol). Imo even that will be better than what we currently have. Can’t really call it a “morph” when you have one choice.

Zardayne

Yes - Change all affected class skills to scale this way.

TempPlayer wrote: »

All I want is more stamina heal option. The current only available choice is Stam warden healer, and even then it have some heal that relie on Magicka. Is it so outrageous that I want my toon to heal other by flexing his muscle instead of relying on something so suspicious as Magicka.

I'd love to make a 2 handed hammer wielding, healing class like my Age of Conan's Bear Shaman or Warhammer Warrior priest but unfortunately I just don't feel we have the tools.

Kahnak

I don't foresee any issues if you're only talking about scaling, but that's only half of what currently makes a 'Stamina' morph or a 'Magicka' morph. What resource is spent on the ability is just as important to take into consideration. The reason that Soul Trap worked on Stam was because it was only one ability and it's relatively cheap even if it costs Magicka. If we disregard resources entirely, I can see where problems with balance and sustainability start to come up. Not only that, but builds will start to become even more homogeneous than they already are - that was one of the main complaints during that particular patch. Having options won't change the fact that there will always be a meta and having a singular hybrid meta build doesn't sound fun to me.

DaveMoeDee

No - Leave them all the way they are

Maybe I would change my answer to Yes - some. But if 'all' was the implementation, bye-bye magicka characters.

DaveMoeDee

No - Leave them all the way they are

AlnilamE wrote: »

Then you might as well remove "magicka" and "stamina" from the game and just one resource called "resource"

And merge light and medium armor into a single armor type.

Vaoh

Yes - Change some affected class skills to scale this way.

Kahnak wrote: »

I don't foresee any issues if you're only talking about scaling, but that's only half of what currently makes a 'Stamina' morph or a 'Magicka' morph. What resource is spent on the ability is just as important to take into consideration. The reason that Soul Trap worked on Stam was because it was only one ability and it's relatively cheap even if it costs Magicka. If we disregard resources entirely, I can see where problems with balance and sustainability start to come up. Not only that, but builds will start to become even more homogeneous than they already are - that was one of the main complaints during that particular patch. Having options won't change the fact that there will always be a meta and having a singular hybrid meta build doesn't sound fun to me.

No lol not all skills that’s not what this is about. Or else I would agree with you that it would cause even worse homogenization.

This thread is about giving skills that currently have Stamina-based morphs the Soul Trap treatment. Furthermore, it will open up options through scaling but also gets rid of “wasted” morphs.

A great example is Surge:

Previous Version:
Base: Gives Major Brutality
Power Surge: Also gives Major Sorcery
Critical Surge: Increases healing a tiny bit.

Current Version:
Base: Gives Major Brutality and Sorcery
Power Surge: Brand new Sorc Healer skill
Critical Surge: Increases healing a tiny bit

Lotus Flower needs the same change (stays with a Magicka cost). So does Scorch (which would change cost+damage type+debuff based on scaling since Sub Assault costs Stam currently). In other words, combine morphs that are already the same but are only separated atm because one has to be colored green and the other has to be colored blue. This opens up space for a brand new morph choice based on role/preference while losing nothing from former two morphs.

Vaoh

Yes - Change some affected class skills to scale this way.

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Maybe I would change my answer to Yes - some. But if 'all' was the implementation, bye-bye magicka characters.

Yeah definitely not all skills. Im trying to be realistic about these changes for a handful of class skills (mainly dps) where morphs are no more than green vs blue versions of each other. Or those which are arbitrarily Stam vs Mag because they needed to do it for the sake of having a Stam morph. It’s boring/makes everyone play the same.

Ideally I’d like for all class skills that are meant to have Stam morphs to simply have 4 morphs, 2 mag/2 stam. So there can be build variety. Combining similar morphs and scaling cost/damage type/effect based on highest offensive stats is much more realistic though.