Eventual Update of Vanilla Content

Iccotak

NOTE: This is not a priority. This is something I would like to see 2-3 years down the line that ZOS could work on in the background while they focus on New content & Performance updates.

Base game content looks drastically lacking in comparison to DLC for two reasons.

1. Computer limitations; While the game was released about 5 years ago, it was being developed just after Oblivion released. ESO was dealing with different operating systems, such as Windows 7, during its development and the player base had lower quality hardware as well.

2. Inconsistent art direction; ESO had a different art direction in its earlier years in comparison to today. Back in 2014 ESO had a noticeable overly simple and “cartoon” aesthetic - sometimes with unfocused & unfinished concept art that exaggerated proportions in Gear, Architecture, and Landscape. That direction was altogether abandoned when it came to future installments. Expansion Zones take realism and detail into account. This is VERY noticeable when comparing Vanilla Dark Elf zones - Stonefall & Deshaan - to Vvardenfel

There are four major reasons that the Vanilla content needs a rework

1. The game is moving to New Generation consoles. Meaning that it is no longer held back by old software & hardware.
2. Some of the races are never going to get a zone focused expansion. Races such as Bretons & Wood Elves are not going to get an expansion because Daggerfall and Valenwood already have zones. Meaning that we are are stuck with an outdated version that doesn't live up to the lore. ZOS could take what they learned and apply it to old zones.
3. Apply the "Recreate" Philosophy to places like Morrowind and Skyrim. If ZOS is going to take the time & effort to meticulously recreate a zone from the single player games as we have seen with places such as; Gold Coast, Vvardenfel, and now Western Skyrim than that design philosophy should be applied to the vanilla game as well.
4. Eventually ZOS is going to have to direct players to the vanilla game for clear story direction. While the Chapters & DLCs look fantastic, the game revolves around the base content, so after the player is done with the expansion they are going to have to go to vanilla eventually. As time passes the story of ESO will get longer and more complicated and many players are already seeking to start at the base game in order to understand what is going on. I am sure that the developers would like their old content to leave just as good of an impression as their new content.

Skyrim Solitude

TES: V - Solitude


ESO Greymoor

ZONES
In what ways do Vanilla zones need a rework?
Although this style was thankfully dropped we can still see echoes of this design in the vanilla base game.

The gradual change is to make Elder Scrolls Online to look more like Elder Scrolls Offline

Skyrim
Eastmarch
The Windhelm we have in ESO would be more visually captivating if it used the Windhelm design we see in Skyrim. The in-game explanation would be that the Nords are rebuilding their city from the old plans drawn up by their ancestors.
Windhelm Comparison

ESO Windhelm front gate



Skyrim Windhelm front gate

The Rift

Vanilla ESO Skyrim

TES: V - The Rift Landscape

Morrowind
In terms of landscape both zones just need the same - thought, effort, & detail as Vvardenfel. The rocks needs to be redone as does the flora placement design.
Deshaan & Stonfalls vs Vvardenfel
Base Game

Vvardenfel

Concerning Mournhold I am not saying completely change the city - but update the some of the Architecture along with the Textures and Flora. Mournhold is known as the "City of Light and Gems" it should be on par with Vivec City & Clockwork City.
In-game lore explanation? Almalexia is renovating her city particularly her Palace. Make it so it is less dark and stands out among the rest of the buildings

ESO Mournhold


TES III: Mournhold


Like what was originally intended to be in the game. Early look at ESO shows a Silver/White Tribunal Temple

Valenwood
In my opinion Valenwood is one of the regions with the most need of a review. (EDIT: Along with other places such as most DC zones) The overall problem with the Valenwood zones is that none of them are particularly distinct from one another (save for maybe Reaper's March) and can feel generic. Most of Valenwood feels like a large open space with trees & flora that are few and far between. Which doesn't feel right for a place like Greenshade which is supposed to be "A Jungle at it's most Primeval". The simple thing to do would be to edit the vegetation and make the zones feel more alive.

Shots of Valenwood zones

However if ZOS wanted to completely re-design the zone...
Do you want to know why Selene's Web is one of my favorite dungeons? It is one of my favorites because it actually feels like I am in Valenwood - sure it has an atmosphere of Selene's influence but it still feels like I am in an actual Valenwood forest.
Imagine if Grahtwood or Greenshade took after its design as a multi layered zone - with an atmosphere of a Forest that is Vast & Ancient.
At first the forest maybe doesn't seem large but as you venture you find that you can literally drop down to the very bottom roots of the forest as well as spiraling branches that takes players to the upper regions of the trees
With Networks of tunnels in the open world, vertical landscape exploration design where players could go literally deeper into the forest - all with no loading screens - that could make the zone a fun place to explore with the new "Antiquities" system of Greymoor
If ZOS needs financial insensitive to do this they could remodel the already existing zone as a free update and make the 2-3 levels below ground as DLC

Shots of Selene's Web

The Concept art for Valenwood was the most ambitious and the least utilized. Imagine these pictures as the levels that players descend in the forest. From the bright leaves and blooming flowers to the dark gnarled roots covered in muck with all manner of creature hiding down there.

Alik'r Desert
Main thing that needs improvement is the Rock models & textures

Alik'r Desert & Architecture

Hew's Bane

MOTIFS
Vanilla Motifs are outdated in that they have poor textures & meshes and don't change for the Beast races.
Newly released styles have High details, high quality textures, and will change depending the race wearing it.

The vanilla motifs need an update. Redguard and Orcs received one over four years ago. The other races such as Nords, Dunmer, and Altmer could all use an update as well.
Polished Redguard & Orc

Vanilla Armor

DLC Armor

MODELS
Player models could use an update.
Noticeable Polygons could be smoothed out and Textures could be improved.
For the standard model - the Face has high textures but the rest of the body is lacking them which can be a problem for player customization as it makes some options like scars or burns look blurry.

Other Examples:
Creatures
Certain creatures like summonable Daedra have outdated textures & meshes. Someone was able to get a good shot of their recent pet Cliff Strider with the Clannfear

The Player Werewolf model is outdated which became easy to see when compared to the textures & detail of the hulking werewolf model

Argonians

Vanilla Skins vs Crown store items

Vanilla



Crown Store

Argonian Crown store hair styles have more detail & higher textures than vanilla ones available in character creation.
Argonian Vanilla Hair styles

Argonian Crown store hair styles

Closing statement
That was a sample of areas in the base game that I think could use a visual improvement and specifically what aspects.
I would like to re-iterate that this is not a priority right now but it is something that I think ZOS should look at if they are not already working on it.
If you read the whole thing then thanks for taking the time.

If you have any feedback or thoughts on what of vanilla you think needs to be improved then feel free to discuss below

I'm curious on what you guy thought about the Valenwood idea

Nerouyn

My first thought on reading your title was yes. Because I've been trying to get the ochre grind out of the way on a few more alts while free eso plus is running and have been jumping around zones to try to make that less like something which makes me want to blow my brains out.

Some of the earlier zones do look like they could use a touch up. But I completely disagree with your reasoning.

I think it's possibly a case of increased resolution of newer assets, which might apply across the board. You only need to look at the game's base racial motifs.

The same applies to furnishings. We regularly see requests for the devs to bring older furnishings into line with newer ones in terms of resolution.

Iccotak wrote: »

2. Poor art direction;

Categorically untrue.

ESO's art direction is generally brilliant.

This game has some of the best environments of any I've ever played. MMO or otherwise. They're a joy to play in.

Most of the base game's architecture is very good. Possibly they made a few small mistakes.

Eg. anyone who has watched even a few renovation shows would know that built in polarising features are best avoided. Because those are the kinds of things which make lots of people immediately say "no" to purchasing. Including leather floors and elephant tusks in Bosmer house design was a mistake. One which isn't present in a lot of the game's concept art.





Lots of people might have enjoyed those pod houses but don't love dead animal everywhere. And in the real world where elephants were hunted to the brink of extinction, ivory is widely regarded as an evil thing. Subconsciously a lot of people are going to have a "yuk" reaction to it.

Such things should have just been furnishings.

Also in AD, Khajiit homes were also a bit of a miss. Blingtastic but dirty and dilapidated papier mache homes.

Personally I think they much bigger mistakes in the DLCs.

Telvanni mushroom towers look like giant piles of medical waste. And Alinor style is a confused fusion of graeco roman, bavarian gothic and japanese. Even at lower resolution, Auridon is much nicer. More elven too. I really wish they'd done something more in that style.

Iccotak wrote: »

Valenwood
In my opinion Valenwood is one of the regions with the most need of a review. The overall problem with the Valenwood zones is that none of them are particularly distinct from one another (save for maybe Reaper's March) and can feel generic. Most of Valenwood feels like a large open space with trees & flora that are few and far between. Which doesn't feel right for a place like Greenshade which is supposed to be "A Jungle at it's most Primeval". The simple thing to do would be to edit the vegetation and make the zones feel more alive.

While I think they erred with bosmer pod design, I could not disagree with you more about Valenwood. It's stunning.

I had never played a wood elf in any of the single player games. So impressed was I with Valenwood though, that I wanted to play one. Took me a while with the character creator to figure out how to make one I liked the look of and when I did I bought a second copy of the game so I could have a full roster of them.

That didn't work out so well. Bosmer pods are what they are. There are still no Bosmer manors. Bosmer motifs? 2? And bosmer racial passives are presently a joke.

But I still love Valenwood.

Aliyavana

personally I think that Breton zones need to be the most updated since they (except rivenspire) look like generic fantasy, an example being the Breton architecture looked way better in the beta screenshots and now it is too grey and devoid of soul.

Darkstorne

Valenwood is indeed the saddest story in ESO. Nothing at all like the lore suggests. Not even a forest by real life standards, let alone the kind of forest the lore describes where highways are across massive boughs and the lower levels are dangerous for the absence of sunlight and all the decaying leaf litter and creatures who live among it. You’re right that Selene’s Web nails that atmosphere, and the main zone is just... awful. It’s not Valenwood.

But Summerset also completely ignores established lore in favour of something boringly easily to design. The environment design is the same across pretty much the entire province. And the architectural design is horrendously repetitive, as though every city on the island was built by the same architect in exactly the same year. I’d hoped they learned from that mistake with Elsweyr by setting the Chapter around Rimmen, and giving themselves another 6 months to create a unique architecture design for southern Elsweyr. But nope. Southern cities like Senchal copy/pasted the Rimmen architecture.

I don’t think they’ll ever redo the older zones, in part because most of ZOS has moved on to their new MMO now putting ESO on a smaller skeleton crew, but also because they’ve proven time and again that unless they’re copying templates from Todd Howard’s team like Vivec, Ald’Ruhn, Solitude etc, ZOS are shockingly bad at creating lore friendly architecture and environments. They think it’s okay to suggest an entire province uses one architectural style for every town and city it’s ever built (imagine if every city in TESV looked like Whiterun - that’s the ZOS mindset). Every city in High Rock looks the same. Every city in Hammerfell is the same. Every city in Alinor looks the same. Most cities in Valenwood are built with Alinor architecture, as though it’s a pop-up portable style for wherever the High Elves need to settle next lol. Literally no thought spared for world design in their art.

They create wonderful stories and gameplay (when it works ) but this team objectively sucks at good world design with their art.

Faulgor

We can all agree on this. According to Rich Lambert, even the art team would be keen to do this.

Other, comparatively trashy MMOs like Star Trek Online have done and continue to do so (overhauled Galaxy, Intrepid and Defiant class ships coming to live in a few weeks)

But there's obviously no money in it for ZOS. So it's very unlikely to happen.

If it did, I think it would be best paired with a new system that promotes going to the older zones, like the Antiquities system or a new higher difficulty / reputation system. I would happily sacrifice one or two DLCs to rediscover Tamriel.

Grianasteri

Well done for putting this time and effort into an idea and presenting it.

In general, I agree.

Iccotak

apparently a silver/white Tribunal Temple was what ZOS had originally intended to be in the game

Aptonoth

Going to be a looong wait. Like the rest of Tamriel will need doing first then we can go back.

logarifmik

Thanks OP for raising the problem in such a constructive and detailed way.

Devs, pretty please?

InaMoonlight

They're already doing that bit by bit, Rawl'kha got re-arranged, yesterday i found out, so had some of Khenarthis including Temple of Mourning tears (or whatever)... little details like more flora, canopy's, furniture in previously empty-looking rooms/areas, the bench that always got in the way of you in coldharbour trying to ride from wayshrine to bank in front of the pavillion... They're working on it!

nafensoriel

Iccotak wrote: »

/snip

Question. How long did ESO take to get made?
That is how long it would take to redo the graphics of the base game with an additional time modifier due to the team being much smaller than it was during development(all teams get reduced after crunch).

Regardless of if anyone agrees or not what you want to be done isn't realistically possible.

barney2525

Once again, I am confused

NOW the game does not Look good enough? THAT is what we have to complain about? Gotta find Something to Criticize the devs for ?

I see a lot of other games that Still don't look as good as this one.

People just can't be happy with what they have.

IMHO

Sylvermynx

InaMoonlight wrote: »

They're already doing that bit by bit, Rawl'kha got re-arranged, yesterday i found out, so had some of Khenarthis including Temple of Mourning tears (or whatever)... little details like more flora, canopy's, furniture in previously empty-looking rooms/areas, the bench that always got in the way of you in coldharbour trying to ride from wayshrine to bank in front of the pavillion... They're working on it!

Wow. Gonna have to go check it out then! Thanks for info!

InaMoonlight

Sylvermynx wrote: »

InaMoonlight wrote: »

They're already doing that bit by bit, Rawl'kha got re-arranged, yesterday i found out, so had some of Khenarthis including Temple of Mourning tears (or whatever)... little details like more flora, canopy's, furniture in previously empty-looking rooms/areas, the bench that always got in the way of you in coldharbour trying to ride from wayshrine to bank in front of the pavillion... They're working on it!

Wow. Gonna have to go check it out then! Thanks for info!

Should also look inside the Rawl'kha temple/mages guild building, new beautiful banners everywhere inside and out

You're so very welcome, I LOVE that I can go back to a place I've been a thousand times, suddenly stop and think "WAIT! Waaaaaait! Somethings different!" And figure out what lol

And never once do they mention it in patch notes, it's like easter egg's, gotta find them one-self

InaMoonlight

I know there's other places that got sneak-updates, but can't remember them for the life of me right now

Sylvermynx

InaMoonlight wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

InaMoonlight wrote: »

They're already doing that bit by bit, Rawl'kha got re-arranged, yesterday i found out, so had some of Khenarthis including Temple of Mourning tears (or whatever)... little details like more flora, canopy's, furniture in previously empty-looking rooms/areas, the bench that always got in the way of you in coldharbour trying to ride from wayshrine to bank in front of the pavillion... They're working on it!

Wow. Gonna have to go check it out then! Thanks for info!

Should also look inside the Rawl'kha temple/mages guild building, new beautiful banners everywhere inside and out

You're so very welcome, I LOVE that I can go back to a place I've been a thousand times, suddenly stop and think "WAIT! Waaaaaait! Somethings different!" And figure out what lol

And never once do they mention it in patch notes, it's like easter egg's, gotta find them one-self

Well, time to do a real "pub crawl" around the older areas then! Oh gosh I love exploring!

InaMoonlight

Sylvermynx wrote: »

InaMoonlight wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

InaMoonlight wrote: »

They're already doing that bit by bit, Rawl'kha got re-arranged, yesterday i found out, so had some of Khenarthis including Temple of Mourning tears (or whatever)... little details like more flora, canopy's, furniture in previously empty-looking rooms/areas, the bench that always got in the way of you in coldharbour trying to ride from wayshrine to bank in front of the pavillion... They're working on it!

Wow. Gonna have to go check it out then! Thanks for info!

Should also look inside the Rawl'kha temple/mages guild building, new beautiful banners everywhere inside and out

You're so very welcome, I LOVE that I can go back to a place I've been a thousand times, suddenly stop and think "WAIT! Waaaaaait! Somethings different!" And figure out what lol

And never once do they mention it in patch notes, it's like easter egg's, gotta find them one-self

Well, time to do a real "pub crawl" around the older areas then! Oh gosh I love exploring!

Hear hear! Happy hunting, let us know what changes you find!

Iccotak

interesting to point out that the architecture in the new Nord Western Skyrim zone is more reasonably proportioned like the single player RPG. it is not overly exaggerated as Nord architecture in the base game.

tuxon

This will not happen because they won't be able to sell anything. And they don't care about the game so they will just keep making crappy chapters and 2 dungeon DLCs.

mikejezz

Darkstorne wrote: »

I don’t think they’ll ever redo the older zones, in part because most of ZOS has moved on to their new MMO

Wait what? Does that mean they are about to abandon eso?

MattVH

What stands out the most to me is the mountains in the older zones, those really look bad compared to newer content. Only makes sense that they got better eventually, but some of the older ones have horrible textures, stretched textures and look like termite hills

Lysette

I recognized that as well when roaming through older zones lately - especially with vegetation ESO made quite some progress, given that jungle zones are awesome as they are, but northern zones lack in decent vegetation imo.

MattVH

I often think about how it's a shame that Valenwood is explored already indeed. I can't help but think about what it would be like if parts of it got released as a chapter now.

I'll just imagine that it actually always looked like the Ancient Forest in Monster Hunter World

Maybe one day, they can shove 'Falinesti' in there. Either as a new zone/huge instance or let it pop up in valenwood somewhere. I wish they would add extra stuff to older zones at all, now that i think about it. It's why i like the mythic system.
But imagine them just expanding Balmora or something. It's a shame they move on from zone to zone so fast.

Suligost

Old content maybe need graphic update but Covenant story is still top of single content in this game. I would welcome old styles update since they are sooo ugly (at release I considered them ugly, who made those feets! Amateur). I think little models (to this day is absurd that nords are higher then orcs... while in lore every book/note describe their monstrous size and they look not much like orcs, skyrim faces fit better) update also is required... generally everything you wrote.

Katahdin

I think its a bit unfair to compare the art in the large map of an MMO to a dungeon instance or a single player game.

Its like comparing apples to oranges.

The single player game can have alot greater detail because its isolated to your computer and it doesnt have to render the movements of 100 other players and what they are doing.

The instanced dungeon can have a lot greater detail because its alot smaller than the overworld map.

In both of the above examples, the draw distance is quite a bit smaller usually and there is a lot less going on than in an MMO overland map.

Lysette

Katahdin wrote: »

I think its a bit unfair to compare the art in the large map of an MMO to a dungeon instance or a single player game.

Its like comparing apples to oranges.

The single player game can have alot greater detail because its isolated to your computer and it doesnt have to render the movements of 100 other players and what they are doing.

The instanced dungeon can have a lot greater detail because its alot smaller than the overworld map.

In both of the above examples, the draw distance is quite a bit smaller usually and there is a lot less going on than in an MMO overland map.

Well, they have it in the newer zones and there is pretty much no difference in fps graphically seen - it could be done. I have drawing distance on max and get about 75 to 90 fps with an older graphic card even, in crowded areas it is about 45 to 55 fps.

DarkPicture

Nerouyn wrote: »

My first thought on reading your title was yes. Because I've been trying to get the ochre grind out of the way on a few more alts while free eso plus is running and have been jumping around zones to try to make that less like something which makes me want to blow my brains out.

Some of the earlier zones do look like they could use a touch up. But I completely disagree with your reasoning.

I think it's possibly a case of increased resolution of newer assets, which might apply across the board. You only need to look at the game's base racial motifs.

The same applies to furnishings. We regularly see requests for the devs to bring older furnishings into line with newer ones in terms of resolution.

Iccotak wrote: »

2. Poor art direction;

Categorically untrue.

ESO's art direction is generally brilliant.

This game has some of the best environments of any I've ever played. MMO or otherwise. They're a joy to play in.

Most of the base game's architecture is very good. Possibly they made a few small mistakes.

Eg. anyone who has watched even a few renovation shows would know that built in polarising features are best avoided. Because those are the kinds of things which make lots of people immediately say "no" to purchasing. Including leather floors and elephant tusks in Bosmer house design was a mistake. One which isn't present in a lot of the game's concept art.





Lots of people might have enjoyed those pod houses but don't love dead animal everywhere. And in the real world where elephants were hunted to the brink of extinction, ivory is widely regarded as an evil thing. Subconsciously a lot of people are going to have a "yuk" reaction to it.

Such things should have just been furnishings.

Also in AD, Khajiit homes were also a bit of a miss. Blingtastic but dirty and dilapidated papier mache homes.

Personally I think they much bigger mistakes in the DLCs.

Telvanni mushroom towers look like giant piles of medical waste. And Alinor style is a confused fusion of graeco roman, bavarian gothic and japanese. Even at lower resolution, Auridon is much nicer. More elven too. I really wish they'd done something more in that style.

Iccotak wrote: »

Valenwood
In my opinion Valenwood is one of the regions with the most need of a review. The overall problem with the Valenwood zones is that none of them are particularly distinct from one another (save for maybe Reaper's March) and can feel generic. Most of Valenwood feels like a large open space with trees & flora that are few and far between. Which doesn't feel right for a place like Greenshade which is supposed to be "A Jungle at it's most Primeval". The simple thing to do would be to edit the vegetation and make the zones feel more alive.

While I think they erred with bosmer pod design, I could not disagree with you more about Valenwood. It's stunning.

I had never played a wood elf in any of the single player games. So impressed was I with Valenwood though, that I wanted to play one. Took me a while with the character creator to figure out how to make one I liked the look of and when I did I bought a second copy of the game so I could have a full roster of them.

That didn't work out so well. Bosmer pods are what they are. There are still no Bosmer manors. Bosmer motifs? 2? And bosmer racial passives are presently a joke.

But I still love Valenwood.

So u posted arts which was never used on live servers... nice. [snip]
[Edited to remove bait]

Inval1d

Suligost wrote: »

Old content maybe need graphic update but Covenant story is still top of single content in this game. I would welcome old styles update since they are sooo ugly (at release I considered them ugly, who made those feets! Amateur). I think little models (to this day is absurd that nords are higher then orcs... while in lore every book/note describe their monstrous size and they look not much like orcs, skyrim faces fit better) update also is required... generally everything you wrote.

I wouldn't complain about how orcs look in ESO compared to the main TES games considering how they look in Oblivion...

idk

Iccotak wrote: »

Computer limitations; While the game was released about 5 years ago, it was being developed just after Oblivion released. ESO was dealing with different operating systems, such as Windows 7, during its development and the player base had lower quality hardware as well.

Zos has already increased the minimum PC requirements for playing the game in multiple areas since the game launched. They have been taking advantage of this and it seems they plan to continue to improve in this area which is why the newer zones look better than the older zones.

However, I question the value of tweaking the older zones as most of us could care less as we have already been there done that. Not really doing to spend more time there because they made it a little bit prettier.

Iccotak wrote: »

2. Inconsistent art direction; ESO had a different art direction in its earlier years in comparison to today. Back in 2014 ESO had a noticeable overly simple and “cartoon” aesthetic - sometimes with unfocused & unfinished concept art that exaggerated proportions in Gear, Architecture, and Landscape. That direction was altogether abandoned when it came to future installments. Expansion Zones take realism and detail into account. This is VERY noticeable when comparing Vanilla Dark Elf zones - Stonefall & Deshaan - to Vvardenfel

It is not an inconsistent direction. Since Zos has increased the minimum requirements for a PC they have been able to improve on the graphics and more though the base game areas are hardly cartoonish. Someone has not played WoW/FF14/SWTOR.

Further, this is an expensive project that is far from needed and would require a solid business justification to make it happen.

My focus is on what is really needed. What is really important. Significant improvement with in-game performance and continued well crafted and executed new content.

Sylvermynx

As someone who spent years in WoW and RIFT.... I don't find the base game areas here lacking at all.

Aliyavana

Ancient Elf ruins should definitely be revamped since ayleid ruins and Ancient Elf ruins are pretty much the same.