PVP Class summaries - the good, the bad and the ugly!

Unified_Gaming

Hi guys, I'm here sharing a pet project I've been working on for some time - 2-3 weeks at least. With Dragonhold coming to an end, I thought it'd be worth reviewing the classes for PvP and what are they good at, what are they bad at and what is just damn ugly and needs fixing or improving. As such, I've created a scale system that looks at a class in 12 different areas and then assigns numerical values to each area (0-20) to create a pretty chart overview, allowing you to compare Magicka to Magicka, stamina to stamina and even Magicka to stamina. I have shared this with numerous YouTubers and PvP players such as zDan, Isthereno1else (he made a similar version based on my chart idea), Glyku, Sniker, SteetzonToast, Daility and many more to get a broad but balanced view of the classes' strengths/weaknesses.

It was explained that the 12 areas focus on the class kit and skills people actually use as well as taking into account the skills people use beyond their class kit. As such, you'd expect AoE damage potential is somewhat low for stam blade because you're not really going to use proxy detonation anytime and you also find group based heals are low even though they could technically use rapid regen. As such, these charts and graphs are aimed at helping players get into PvP and to give them a clearer idea of what classes are good and weak and then to allow them to use that knowledge to improve their builds - of which my whole YouTube channel focuses on. It was a fun project and do people differ - yes but only marginally and to get some large names in PvP to agree somewhat is a real challenge. As with things like this, they are always somewhat subjective but I've tried to avoid that and so all graphs focus on the main kit rather than a specialized build such as a pet sorc using wall of elements and aoe spam - the reality is, this ain't going to cut it on open-world or bgs.

In creating these, it became really interesting to reflect on each class and discuss people's thoughts. When you focus on classes in isolation you feel they're good this but they're bad at that. However, if you actually compare classes and arch types to one another - holes appear. For example, I was surprised that Magicka DK has low group utility but when you look at what they bring to a group compared to other classes, it's not much and most can bring the defile, the snares etc. without needing to use an ultimate such as necro or warden. It is also apparent that some classes are just better than others for specific playstyles and there are massively wild variations between stamina and Magicka. The biggest thing I took away from this is that stamina is better for solo and Xing due to greater access to burst, movement and defense whereas Magicka works better in larger groups due to better group utility, aoe damage and off heals. Is this a bad thing no but could things be done to address the weaknesses - for sure!

Below are my charts that I've created and they will appear on my website in due course - you are free to share them, use them for personal projects but it would be great if you could let people know they come from Unified Gaming and feel free to link my channel. I've also made a video on this where I go into MUCH, MUCH, more detail so feel free to look at that and get my rational - especially before criticizing as you might learn something

I hope you enjoy this and find it helpful and thanks for reading!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vpx6JBlVdY

Open spoiler to see what the terms/categories mean.

Spoiler

Burst potential = the ability to land as much damage as possible in as quick time as possible. Single target burst potential is about nuking someone and AoE burst potential is the same but for groups.

Single target/AoE damage = how much damage can you do in 1 skill and how focused is your class on AoE or single target damage.

Sustain = your ability to manage your resources within a fight

Defense = the ability to withstand damage and it does factor in self-healing somewhat but not drastically.

DoT damage potential = how damage could you expect from using dots.

Mobility = the ability to move around the battlefield

Group Utility = what can you bring to a group that is actually useful such as passives, buffs/debuffs. It focuses on skills you'd actually slot - so things like eruption have little weighting as they're not used in PvP often.

Self-heal strength = is your ability to bound back from the brink of death and recover HP without others

Group heal strength - is your ability to heal multiple people, keep their health bars topped up and help them bounce back.

Class identity = how easy is it for a target to know you're on a specific class and arc type. How many skills you can slot from your class that is actually viable. Samina sorc has a low class identity as most of its kit comes from weapon and guild skills.

Open to see the charts themselves and feel free to download and share them as well as the video.

Spoiler

I use YouTube more than ESO forums so if you want a quicker response, feel free to comment on the video but I will also check this post from time to time - just work, baby, life etc. means I don't get to come here as often as I'd like.

Thanks again and enjoy!

Iskiab

Nice video!

I agree with almost all the video except for a couple things:

- I’d definitely drop magblade burst

- MagDK group utility is rated about right, but don’t forget they can give the group major sorcery/brutality. That’s what allows groups not use garbage skills for that buff and use immovability pots. It’s more like a bone to help DKs, but it’s important

- Sorc group utility is way too low. They’re above average imo. Their high sustain making them the best users of cleanse in addition to how important negate is for group play is enough to put them as above average. I think only Magtemplar and MagWarden would be higher, maybe not even magtemplar

Unified_Gaming

Magblade has burst IF and only IF you land it. If you can get it off then it works well but the delay on soul harvest and then bow makes it clunky - they need to remove the delay on soul harvest or bow in all honesty.

I put magdk there where it is as they can bring major sorcery/brutality but most people run skills that give this anyway or use pots. It's nice but not essential and it seems very niche in all honesty. It's their saving grace but if you compare to magsorc, magden etc. they're just really poor.

As for magsorc group utility, it's 10/20 or 5/10. I put it here as negate is great but it has limited uptime due to being an ult and beyond that, all they bring is minor prophecy. Yes you can spam purge cheaper than say other classes because of sustain from dark deal but in all honesty, the templar one is just way better and besides, templar or magden has better sustain if you want to conserve stam and not use dark conversion. I think this is somewhat personal preference though

All in all, it was interesting to make and still learn new things from it like when you overlap the graphs you can really see variations between mag/stam.

Iskiab

Yup, I think that’s the major theme of pvp right now. Mag is weaker ST (excluding magsorc), higher group utility and healing then stam, and more aoe burst.

It lends itself to solo stam builds, a mix in BGs, and mag ball groups.

Devs have to put on their thinking caps and tweak to adjust things imo without just copying mag and stam abilities and giving it to the other variant. Keep class diversity and playstyles different but mix up the balance a bit so it’s not a Stam in x situation, mag in x situation setup.

Unified_Gaming

Iskiab wrote: »

Yup, I think that’s the major theme of pvp right now. Mag is weaker ST (excluding magsorc), higher group utility and healing then stam, and more aoe burst.

It lends itself to solo stam builds, a mix in BGs, and mag ball groups.

Devs have to put on their thinking caps and tweak to adjust things imo without just copying mag and stam abilities and giving it to the other variant. Keep class diversity and playstyles different but mix up the balance a bit so it’s not a Stam in x situation, mag in x situation setup.

I've had this conversation a few times and I wonder if it's more likely that magicka's weaknesses are just masked as there are more bodies pulling the slack. If you look at stam, beyond group healing they have pretty much everything you'd need. It's why my small scale groups are stam with 1-2 healers.

I think the issue is access to the same tools - not the same skills but tools. Magicka lacks mobility and if that was addressed that'd help massively. The second thing they get punished for is stam management, they simply can't spring, break free or roll as much and so this means that mag classes are really vulnerable to stuns in a 1 v X. They also lack burst - in order to do comparable damage you need to land an extra 1-2 skills and so the delay is really noticeable. On top of this, most magicka abilities are projectiles and have a built-in travel time 450ms I think it is and means people can roll it easier than say, executioner. What this leads to is magicka struggling to burst people and when they're low, they can't always finish off as they have the delay on their abilities coupled with the fact that most mag classes lack an execute that is decent. When you couple this with their speed issues then it puts them at a large disadvantage in my opinion and so to address this, they should focus on buffing magcika class dots by 10-20% and spamables so they're in line with dizzying swing (10-15% increase) and add an execute mechanic to the destruction staff skill line or make a skill in there an execute. As for mobility, they need to either give magicka passives to make break free cheaper as that is their biggest issue.

In the same token, stamina's healing needs addressing somewhat but if they address the healing then this could once again force Magicka classes out of small scale. I would also like to see stamina bring some more useful buffs and debuffs because at present, they bring little to large groups due.

It's a real conundrum and I don't envy them but at the same time, I'd be happy to discuss further solutions in detail that I think could work to resolve these in meaningful ways.

How would you resolve the imbalance?

Iskiab

Nothing earth shattering:
- get rid of all projectile absorptions, turn them into a buff with minor and major at 8% and 30% projectile absorptions
- fix cyrodiil lag so cast time abilities work (inevitable det comes to mind)
- only buff spammables that really suck like swallow soul, fist, etc...

Other pvp games tend to turn into ranged heavy games with a no man lands in between ranged groups. Melee needs stronger burst then ranged imo, just to make up for having to close the gap and be melee. It’s moreso a ranged vs melee thing right now, bow/bow are maneuverable but suck too outside snipe health desyncs.

Then some sort of anti-group ability for stam like inevitable det, but not inevitable det so it’s not a copy. I’m not sure what.

MishMash

Excellent work, OP!

Clearly you've put time and effort into this presentation -- well done! I truly appreciate you.

Unified_Gaming

MishMash wrote: »

Excellent work, OP!

Clearly you've put time and effort into this presentation -- well done! I truly appreciate you.

Thanks! I wanted them to look good but more importantly be correct (hence checking with loads of pvp players) and easy to understand

Unified_Gaming

Iskiab wrote: »

Nothing earth shattering:
- get rid of all projectile absorptions, turn them into a buff with minor and major at 8% and 30% projectile absorptions
- fix cyrodiil lag so cast time abilities work (inevitable det comes to mind)
- only buff spammables that really suck like swallow soul, fist, etc...

Other pvp games tend to turn into ranged heavy games with a no man lands in between ranged groups. Melee needs stronger burst then ranged imo, just to make up for having to close the gap and be melee. It’s moreso a ranged vs melee thing right now, bow/bow are maneuverable but suck too outside snipe health desyncs.

Then some sort of anti-group ability for stam like inevitable det, but not inevitable det so it’s not a copy. I’m not sure what.

Forgot to reply! Sorry about that.

I agree that projectile absorption is rather strong and does need some adjustments. The lag is indeed an issue and needs addressing ASAP. I think buffing spammables would help and only the ones that are meh so they are actually useful as well as class dots.

I do agree with the no mans land - I think the biggest thing to reduce the inconsistent between mag and stam is to remove the projectile travel time when <8m to your target so things like Mag NB can actually land their bow or swallow soul in melee range as currently, it's really slow and clunky. Stamblade, on the other hand, has no extra delay on their surprise attack and so can get the damage out 40-50% faster in melee - this is true for all melee.

I think the Greymore patch could be interesting as they would have gathered ALOT of data and so could adjust with a better insight. Only time will tell though

Davadin

didnt see the video and only skim the charts...

that sounds about right. can confirm stamDK has a very nice, very good damage and defense. we wont win all the fights, but we definitely wont be the first to die either.

highly recommend. 9/10. would play again.

Unified_Gaming

Davadin wrote: »

didnt see the video and only skim the charts...

that sounds about right. can confirm stamDK has a very nice, very good damage and defense. we wont win all the fights, but we definitely wont be the first to die either.

highly recommend. 9/10. would play again.

Yeah the charts really highlight the strengths of each class and the video is worth watching as I'll explain the rational for their ratings etc.

As for dk, it's a solid class this patch and worth a play

MinnesotaKid

Well done! Really enjoyed the video and the charts.
Thank you!

MerguezMan

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Yeah the charts really highlight the strengths of each class and the video is worth watching as I'll explain the rational for their ratings etc.

Well, I watched a part of it and I still don't get how these "objective" ratings are defined.

For instance, how do you rate class Mobility ?

ie. Everyone has access to Steed mundus and Race Against Time skill, which can greatly boost speed.
I can understand Sorcerer has higher mobility due to "Streak" skill that allows a dash in any direction, but that doesn't explain the other ratings.

Do you have a list with points, or is it your personal idea of each spec ?

Why don't you include Hybrids ?

Unified_Gaming

MerguezMan wrote: »

show previous quotes

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Yeah the charts really highlight the strengths of each class and the video is worth watching as I'll explain the rational for their ratings etc.

Well, I watched a part of it and I still don't get how these "objective" ratings are defined.

For instance, how do you rate class Mobility ?

ie. Everyone has access to Steed mundus and Race Against Time skill, which can greatly boost speed.
I can understand Sorcerer has higher mobility due to "Streak" skill that allows a dash in any direction, but that doesn't explain the other ratings.

Do you have a list with points, or is it your personal idea of each spec ?

Why don't you include Hybrids ?

I do explain how mobility is defined and it also is explained that it takes into account what people actually use and centres more on the class kit. You can offset the class kit with other skills but if you want a class that is more mobile (able to navigate the battlefield) then you want nightblades or sorcerers for example. If you compare class to class some are clearly more mobile and the charts reflect that as they can move without issues using their class kit e.g. nightblades have cloak and shade, sorcerers have expedition and streak, templars snare the target but also can purge snares meaning they become faster than other classes like dk which can't purge - yes they can use wings for imoblize immunity but most don't and so it factors in what people actually use. I could take a dk, use jailbreaker medium, swift trait jewellery, steed mundus and race against time but the build wouldn't be viable and that is the point of these. What is each class good at overall and what do I need to take into account when making my build.

As for the rankings, they use a 20 point scale which is across all classes and specs so are comparable and then they were ranked by myself and then cross checked and tweaked and refined around 6 times in total with many pvp players including isthereno1else, zDan, STEETZontoast, Glyku, Sniker, Il Lobo Il and more (isthereno1else's discord) have seen and all agree these on the whole, give an overview.

Hybrids were not covered as they're weaker but you could compare mag/stam classes to another and compare it.

Hope that helps

katorga

I think support/heal builds are more impactful in group play. That means either stam warden or magicka.

Unified_Gaming

katorga wrote: »

I think support/heal builds are more impactful in group play. That means either stam warden or magicka.

I agree! Support builds are really underrated - a good healer can offset 2-3 good damage dealers and that is invaluable in bgs and small scale. Warden is phenomenal for group play.

Zer0_CooL

Identity of MagDK: Play like a stm toon but without the extra burst of an execute and less movability.

Iskiab

katorga wrote: »

I think support/heal builds are more impactful in group play. That means either stam warden or magicka.

Agreed except for MagDK. All the healing abilities in the earthen heart line are too expensive and they lack the sustain to heal well. They can do it, it’s just harder and not as effective as other classes.

Raammzzaa

As introductory material for new players these are probably close enough. To those of us that spend a lot of time playing in comped groups (eg. ball groups) where negates and bombs are key aspects of our offense - I think the group utility of some classes is going to look shockingly low. Judging by the list of PvP players you consulted we’re pretty far from your target audience though, which is fine.

MerguezMan

@Unified_Gaming,

So, you create charts to compare each class on a same basis,
- mainly relying on class kit, but including other skills that are mostly used
- on a 20 point scale that is then reviewed by your friends
- and you exclude hybrid builds as you consider they are weaker

I can 99% guarantee such rating is biased, as you are not rating the classes themselves, but the "most common" use people have of it. Which is not synonymous to "potential".

Low mobility can be balanced any time by including a "Major expedition" or dash in your build with skills, potions, or even armor sets. Ignoring such possibility because "most people" don't use it is not fair to the class rating.

Either you rate the class kit alone, including all of it, and excluding everything else, or you include the possibility to use everything - all skill lines, sets, potions, racial passives,etc... If you don't, you are rating a build (or a mix of your friends builds, if you prefer).

ie. Magicka class self-heal: anyone can slot a restoration staff on off bar, and get high self and group healing, even better than class healing. But the templar has specific class passives that make him better at that.

Counter-example, your "sustain" rating is almost the same on each class. Netch gives a load of resources back on demand for free, you'd expect Warden to be slightly above the others... it's not, it's even below StamDK. Because your rating is based on builds that include sustain as a priority, so even the worst sustain class would have an average rating (above an objective rating if you focus on class kit only).

About Hybrids, they are for sure weaker in cp environment, but you are rating "PvP", with BGs and no-cp environments...

Your chart system as it is would be great to rate builds. It needs a rework to rate classes objectively.

[Edit] Typo

[Edit2] For instance, I got a Dark Elf DK I use only in no-CP.
- 5/1/1 medium, Valkyn, NMA, Shackle, all tri-stat enchant, 4 impen., 2 infu., 1 Reinforced.
- Jewelry: infu weapon damage, infu mag regen, bloodthirsty stam regen
- Human form, Lover Mundus, sugar-skulls food, tri-stat or situational pots (reveal, invisibility, immovable, etc.)
- 50 in stam, 14 in mag
- 2H nirn sword, Noxious breath, Flames of Oblivion, Race against Time, Stampede, Executioner, Take flight
- Resto. staff powered, Molten armaments, Volatile armor, Radiating regen., Fossilize, Venom. claw, Reviv. barrier
OfC that's not meta, that's not top-performing... But try to rate this build with your system, and compare it with stamina and magicka. I'm quite sure group heal and mobility would have a gap, and I'd be curious to see the other ratings to compare.

Nostrabar

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Magblade has burst IF and only IF you land it. If you can get it off then it works well but the delay on soul harvest and then bow makes it clunky - they need to remove the delay on soul harvest or bow in all honesty.

I'll note is that the NB solo burst combo is entirely within the GCD system, there's no equivalent to Shalks, BB, Purifying/PotL, which makes it necessarily much weaker, even if the individual skills hit slightly harder.

I'd also say that for NB AoE burst, you're really just talking about Soul Siphon and Sap Essence/Power Extraction---every mag class can use proxy det for similar effects (again, off GCD). If anything, those classes with stronger AoE burst are going to get huge advantages---even generically, a sorc bomber that times a meteor to line up with a proxy det is should have a bigger burst than the NB will with soul tether, and should also get most of their ulti back...

Unified_Gaming

MerguezMan wrote: »

@Unified_Gaming,

So, you create charts to compare each class on a same basis,
- mainly relying on class kit, but including other skills that are mostly used
- on a 20 point scale that is then reviewed by your friends
- and you exclude hybrid builds as you consider they are weaker

I can 99% guarantee such rating is biased, as you are not rating the classes themselves, but the "most common" use people have of it. Which is not synonymous to "potential".

Low mobility can be balanced any time by including a "Major expedition" or dash in your build with skills, potions, or even armor sets. Ignoring such possibility because "most people" don't use it is not fair to the class rating.

Either you rate the class kit alone, including all of it, and excluding everything else, or you include the possibility to use everything - all skill lines, sets, potions, racial passives,etc... If you don't, you are rating a build (or a mix of your friends builds, if you prefer).

ie. Magicka class self-heal: anyone can slot a restoration staff on off bar, and get high self and group healing, even better than class healing. But the templar has specific class passives that make him better at that.

Counter-example, your "sustain" rating is almost the same on each class. Netch gives a load of resources back on demand for free, you'd expect Warden to be slightly above the others... it's not, it's even below StamDK. Because your rating is based on builds that include sustain as a priority, so even the worst sustain class would have an average rating (above an objective rating if you focus on class kit only).

About Hybrids, they are for sure weaker in cp environment, but you are rating "PvP", with BGs and no-cp environments...

Your chart system as it is would be great to rate builds. It needs a rework to rate classes objectively.

[Edit] Typo

[Edit2] For instance, I got a Dark Elf DK I use only in no-CP.
- 5/1/1 medium, Valkyn, NMA, Shackle, all tri-stat enchant, 4 impen., 2 infu., 1 Reinforced.
- Jewelry: infu weapon damage, infu mag regen, bloodthirsty stam regen
- Human form, Lover Mundus, sugar-skulls food, tri-stat or situational pots (reveal, invisibility, immovable, etc.)
- 50 in stam, 14 in mag
- 2H nirn sword, Noxious breath, Flames of Oblivion, Race against Time, Stampede, Executioner, Take flight
- Resto. staff powered, Molten armaments, Volatile armor, Radiating regen., Fossilize, Venom. claw, Reviv. barrier
OfC that's not meta, that's not top-performing... But try to rate this build with your system, and compare it with stamina and magicka. I'm quite sure group heal and mobility would have a gap, and I'd be curious to see the other ratings to compare.

I assume this is your take on a hybrid build that uses all stamina abilities pretty much to do damage whilst the mag skills are used for buffs or utility correct?

As an introduction which these charts are made for, it is an overview and gives an idea. I do explain as mentioned previously that you can offset a weakness that the class inherently but you compromise when compared to actual dedicated pvp builds and that is what these charts show.

Unified_Gaming

Nostrabar wrote: »

show previous quotes

Unified_Gaming wrote: »

Magblade has burst IF and only IF you land it. If you can get it off then it works well but the delay on soul harvest and then bow makes it clunky - they need to remove the delay on soul harvest or bow in all honesty.

I'll note is that the NB solo burst combo is entirely within the GCD system, there's no equivalent to Shalks, BB, Purifying/PotL, which makes it necessarily much weaker, even if the individual skills hit slightly harder.

I'd also say that for NB AoE burst, you're really just talking about Soul Siphon and Sap Essence/Power Extraction---every mag class can use proxy det for similar effects (again, off GCD). If anything, those classes with stronger AoE burst are going to get huge advantages---even generically, a sorc bomber that times a meteor to line up with a proxy det is should have a bigger burst than the NB will with soul tether, and should also get most of their ulti back...

The problem with nightblade is the delay on both the ultimate and the bow and you have to cast both. Having a delayed burst where they bow say fires after 3 seconds when activated will allow you to land burst alot faster and would fix many issues.

As for aoe burst, the reason NB is the highest is because it literally 1 shots groups and what's more, you have little to no indication a bomber is about where a magsorc has it telegraphed and you also then have better followed up damage on a nb vs a sorc because their soul tether hits as hard as meteor 20k+ tool tip on bomber and it stuns allowing you to then use sustained sap essence spam which further enhances the damage. All in all, you get better burst on a nb imo and it's why you don't see many other classes bomb without very niche builds as they don't have the same damage or utility.

Hope that clarifies my rational.