What classes should be

ThePhantomThorn

Imo every class should have a unique identity. And this is what I think they should be.

Dk:
Tanky, able to stand ground. Strong ults.
Stone, fire, and poison elements.

Sorc:
Fast strong burst.
Wind and lightning elements

Nb:
Squishy stealthy and bursty.
Shadow elements with illusion magic.

Templar:
Healing and group utility,
Light based.

Warden:
All round but not super strong at any.
Plant, ice, and animal based

Necro:
All round like warden. Summon based.
Disease element for stam. Mag is debatable.

Any thoughts? Zos keeps homogenising classes. They should all be different and unique.

Iccotak

This is not WoW where classes only fit strictly one role

idk

Iccotak wrote: »

This is not WoW where classes only fit strictly one role

+1000

It is great this game is not as limiting as other MMORPGs I have played. Sadly some do not understand that.

ThePhantomThorn

Iccotak wrote: »

This is not WoW where classes only fit strictly one role

No. But all classes should be better at some things than others.
As it is nbs are better tanks than dds, and Templar’s have better burst. It doesn’t make sense. Classes should be able to do every role, just some should be better than others. The classes should be unique.

Iskiab

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

This is not WoW where classes only fit strictly one role

No. But all classes should be better at some things than others.
As it is nbs are better tanks than dds, and Templar’s have better burst. It doesn’t make sense. Classes should be able to do every role, just some should be better than others. The classes should be unique.

Being squishy defining a class is a death sentence in pvp.

idk

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

This is not WoW where classes only fit strictly one role

No. But all classes should be better at some things than others.
As it is nbs are better tanks than dds, and Templar’s have better burst. It doesn’t make sense. Classes should be able to do every role, just some should be better than others. The classes should be unique.

And they are. They are by design as Zos has specifically said that is their intent. It is why some classes are preferred for tanking and others for healing.

Wifeaggro13

Iccotak wrote: »

This is not WoW where classes only fit strictly one role

I would agree but their is only really one role in Eso and its dps. It's the most generic combat dynamic I've ever experienced in a MMO. The only thing worse is guild wars. This game surely need role definition and I have no problem with classes having strengths and weaknesses. We all need a little less millenial

Nemesis7884

honestly if we could go back in time best would be to design eso with a classless system...with a purely skill based system where you can mix and match from learning different skill lines (like the weapon or guild lines but a lot more of those) and have maybe class templates as "ideas" like they are in other elder scrolls games...

oh and you'd also implement a companion system similar to swtor

i'd be so glorious

Iccotak

@Nemesis7884

This is an MMO the whole point of an MMO is that you have millions of possible companions around you.

Also the point of classes is character theme
A class system works - there is nothing wrong with some form of restriction.

I like the nature theme of Warden and the holy & light theme of Templar
I like that Necromancer is it's own class

Royaji

Iccotak wrote: »

This is not WoW where classes only fit strictly one role

I'd still argue that cramming fun and unique identity for a tank, healer, magDD, stamDD and a couple of viable PvP builds in 15 skills and 12 passives is not a feasible concept though. Classes doing more than one role is fine. But they don't have to do every role.

Noxavian

Iccotak wrote: »

@Nemesis7884

This is an MMO the whole point of an MMO is that you have millions of possible companions around you.

Also the point of classes is character theme
A class system works - there is nothing wrong with some form of restriction.

I like the nature theme of Warden and the holy & light theme of Templar
I like that Necromancer is it's own class

I like that Necromancer is it's own class, what I don't like is that Necromancer isn't a SUMMONING class. Currently, sorcerer is more of a summoner than Necromancer.

And that is the most backwards design I've ever seen. Also why can't player necromancers raise the dead like every other necromancer can? Why can't I raise a zombie or skeletal warrior, the most common of undead?

Faulgor

Iccotak wrote: »

This is not WoW where classes only fit strictly one role

Precisely. Classes should not be built around roles, but around different ways how to tackle these roles.

IMO they should lean heavily into the different passives, make them more pronounced. +10% lightning damage for Sorcerers is a nice idea for example, but it's not enough to sway people into using lightning staffs over inferno.

Give classes more unique mechanics that only apply to them. Building Necromancers around corpses as a resource is a good direction, even thought it hasn't hit the mark yet. Why not try something similar with Sorcerers and Soul Gems, or Nightblades and Poisons?

Noxavian

Faulgor wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

This is not WoW where classes only fit strictly one role

Precisely. Classes should not be built around roles, but around different ways how to tackle these roles.

IMO they should lean heavily into the different passives, make them more pronounced. +10% lightning damage for Sorcerers is a nice idea for example, but it's not enough to sway people into using lightning staffs over inferno.

Give classes more unique mechanics that only apply to them. Building Necromancers around corpses as a resource is a good direction, even thought it hasn't hit the mark yet. Why not try something similar with Sorcerers and Soul Gems, or Nightblades and Poisons?

the minute they make Necromancers based around summoning their summons from corpses as part of their mechanic, I'll say they've certainly hit the mark! For now though they're like halfway there, I just wish the class had more to do with summoning stuff from corpses.

Drdeath20

The class system is a failure in eso but that has more to do with how many times the game has been altered from regime changes than it has to do with the actual system itself.

Worst change IMO has been the split between stamina and mag. It really did lead to less build variety and less meaninful class skills.

StrandedMonkey

so what makes all these classes the same exactly?

ThePhantomThorn

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

so what makes all these classes the same exactly?

Well, there not the same, there just not unique.
Dk has better burst than nb
Warden is tankyer than dk
Classes don’t have the skilled that made them unique.
Like dk wings
Or nb incap
Their identity has been removed due to random nerfs.
The current team seems to want every class to be as good as each other at everything.
And that is just boring.

StrandedMonkey

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

so what makes all these classes the same exactly?

Well, there not the same, there just not unique.
Dk has better burst than nb
Warden is tankyer than dk
Classes don’t have the skilled that made them unique.
Like dk wings
Or nb incap
Their identity has been removed due to random nerfs.
The current team seems to want every class to be as good as each other at everything.
And that is just boring.

so what about the ults, buffs, passives and aesthetics that make all these classes totally different?
this problem seems more opinionated than legitimate

Nemesis7884

Iccotak wrote: »

@Nemesis7884

This is an MMO the whole point of an MMO is that you have millions of possible companions around you.

Also the point of classes is character theme
A class system works - there is nothing wrong with some form of restriction.

I like the nature theme of Warden and the holy & light theme of Templar
I like that Necromancer is it's own class

i disagree

you can have class themes as well through the combination of skills as all the elder scrolls have done it in the past - as an idea that lets you strive towards a template or create your own unique class - that is the essence of an rpg...

exactly how for example the secret world did which i think was brilliant - a vast amount of skills to choose from and "idea" templates to work towards that even rewarded you with a costume

IMO eso would be the same to play but would allow for so much more freedom, identity, rping and feels so much more like an elder scrolls game if we had no classes but only skills/lines to choose from as all the other elder scrolls in the past...

you want to be a necromancer? great, combine destruction with conjuration
you want to be a nightblade? great combine dual wielding with sneak and illusion
you want to be a spellsword? great combine alteration with two handed
you want to be a paladin? great combine heavy armor and shield with restoration
etc. etc. etc.

This way you could also stay much truer to past experience and the lore with having proper spell schools etc.

ThePhantomThorn

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

so what makes all these classes the same exactly?

Well, there not the same, there just not unique.
Dk has better burst than nb
Warden is tankyer than dk
Classes don’t have the skilled that made them unique.
Like dk wings
Or nb incap
Their identity has been removed due to random nerfs.
The current team seems to want every class to be as good as each other at everything.
And that is just boring.

so what about the ults, buffs, passives and aesthetics that make all these classes totally different?
this problem seems more opinionated than legitimate

They don’t from a gameplay and balance point. As a nb I don’t feel like a bursty assassin. I feel like a mosquito.

barney2525

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Imo every class should have a unique identity. And this is what I think they should be.

Dk:
Tanky, able to stand ground. Strong ults.
Stone, fire, and poison elements.

Sorc:
Fast strong burst.
Wind and lightning elements

Nb:
Squishy stealthy and bursty.
Shadow elements with illusion magic.

Templar:
Healing and group utility,
Light based.

Warden:
All round but not super strong at any.
Plant, ice, and animal based

Necro:
All round like warden. Summon based.
Disease element for stam. Mag is debatable.

Any thoughts? Zos keeps homogenising classes. They should all be different and unique.

These are Not, IMHO, Identity

These are simply Functions.

Identity would be - for example - everything about the character is based around fire or some other singular element. Or the character itself is almost indestructible - without gear. Or the character's agility, speed and martial arts exceeds all others. Or the character summons hordes and hordes and more hordes of servants to do their bidding.

Identity means depth to the class. Has Nothing to do with what Function(s) the character performs.

IMHO

barney2525

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

@Nemesis7884

This is an MMO the whole point of an MMO is that you have millions of possible companions around you.

Also the point of classes is character theme
A class system works - there is nothing wrong with some form of restriction.

I like the nature theme of Warden and the holy & light theme of Templar
I like that Necromancer is it's own class

i disagree

you can have class themes as well through the combination of skills as all the elder scrolls have done it in the past - as an idea that lets you strive towards a template or create your own unique class - that is the essence of an rpg...

exactly how for example the secret world did which i think was brilliant - a vast amount of skills to choose from and "idea" templates to work towards that even rewarded you with a costume

IMO eso would be the same to play but would allow for so much more freedom, identity, rping and feels so much more like an elder scrolls game if we had no classes but only skills/lines to choose from as all the other elder scrolls in the past...

you want to be a necromancer? great, combine destruction with conjuration
you want to be a nightblade? great combine dual wielding with sneak and illusion
you want to be a spellsword? great combine alteration with two handed
you want to be a paladin? great combine heavy armor and shield with restoration
etc. etc. etc.

This way you could also stay much truer to past experience and the lore with having proper spell schools etc.

Apples and Oranges

You can not equate an Online MMO with a single player game. The single player game, the player can roleplay to their hearts content. The MMO, a player CAN roleplay if they want to, but many players do not play the MMO for the roleplay. They want the PvP. They want the most powerful character they can make.

With no classes, no class specific skills, PvP would be even More 'single classed' than it is now, with Everyone simply putting together the best combination of skills. You would be able to go online to research the best current build, and Everyone who does PvP would have that combination of skills. You could rename Cyradil to - The Clone Wars. It would have Nothing to do with roleplay.

At least with classes and class skills, the player has to make a choice as to what they want to use, because they won't have access to Everything.

IMHO

Nyladreas

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

honestly if we could go back in time best would be to design eso with a classless system...with a purely skill based system where you can mix and match from learning different skill lines (like the weapon or guild lines but a lot more of those) and have maybe class templates as "ideas" like they are in other elder scrolls games...

oh and you'd also implement a companion system similar to swtor

i'd be so glorious

Indeed, it would be so glorious pvp would be barren. Because everyone would be effective tank, and use cloak... And nobody would want to be ganked lmao.

Faulgor

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

@Nemesis7884

This is an MMO the whole point of an MMO is that you have millions of possible companions around you.

Also the point of classes is character theme
A class system works - there is nothing wrong with some form of restriction.

I like the nature theme of Warden and the holy & light theme of Templar
I like that Necromancer is it's own class

i disagree

you can have class themes as well through the combination of skills as all the elder scrolls have done it in the past - as an idea that lets you strive towards a template or create your own unique class - that is the essence of an rpg...

exactly how for example the secret world did which i think was brilliant - a vast amount of skills to choose from and "idea" templates to work towards that even rewarded you with a costume

IMO eso would be the same to play but would allow for so much more freedom, identity, rping and feels so much more like an elder scrolls game if we had no classes but only skills/lines to choose from as all the other elder scrolls in the past...

you want to be a necromancer? great, combine destruction with conjuration
you want to be a nightblade? great combine dual wielding with sneak and illusion
you want to be a spellsword? great combine alteration with two handed
you want to be a paladin? great combine heavy armor and shield with restoration
etc. etc. etc.

This way you could also stay much truer to past experience and the lore with having proper spell schools etc.

They had a kernel of that in the beginning, when they made the good decision to restrict the skills on your skill bar.
Frankly, I thought weapon swap in combat was a bad idea because of this, as the limited amount of reasonable weapons to use meant you could use all the "good ones", which is why we ended up with every stamina build using DW/Bow instead of having Archers, 2h Barbarians, DW Rogues, etc.

People saying things like "but then everyone would just use the best skills" ignore that proper character systems also have limitations like this. There would still be different builds, for the same reason that, although everyone can equip every armor type, nobody has all the benefits of light, medium and heavy armor at the same time - there is just one slot for each piece, so compromises have to be made.

Ideally in a free-form classless system, there would be a skill bar for passives, too.

Anotherone773

Iccotak wrote: »

This is not WoW where classes only fit strictly one role

If it was WoW then every class would only have one viable endgame build. But the classes in this game are very much like the Indrik mounts. A reskin of a reskin of a reskin. The class system may be the most boring of any game i have ever played and i did in fact play Wow when they started dumbing it down.

idk wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

This is not WoW where classes only fit strictly one role

+1000

It is great this game is not as limiting as other MMORPGs I have played. Sadly some do not understand that.

Oh we understand how little johnny the high elf can be anything he wants to be. If he wants to be a high elf stamina based ice staff wielding medium armor vampire templar healer he can and do all roles and all content but vet endgame. Everyone can be everything all class skill lines are very comparable with each other.

Royaji wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

This is not WoW where classes only fit strictly one role

I'd still argue that cramming fun and unique identity for a tank, healer, magDD, stamDD and a couple of viable PvP builds in 15 skills and 12 passives is not a feasible concept though. Classes doing more than one role is fine. But they don't have to do every role.

Exactly and the fact that some roles *cough* healer*cough are optional in group content because everyone has awesome heals tells you how garbage the system is. None healers should have to depend on pots mainly to regen health. Not able to back bar an entire triage center.

The way i look at it is that lets say that right now every class can do 50k-60k DPS. There is not a lot of reason to pick class X over class Y.

I would consider a game balanced not when every class did roughly the same DPS but varied. A class great at DPS might do 55k-60k DPS. A class that is good at DPS might do 42k-48k and a class weak at DPS might do around 30k tops.

The class that is great at DPS might also be a decent tank but.not.at.the.same.time. Their healing skills would be pretty bad. They could heal a group through normal dungeons but would struggle with vet dungeons even on well geared characters.

On the other hand, that weak dps, could keep every Dunmer alive if they decided to all cannonball into Red Mountain's lava flows at the same time. They would also be a decent tank. With a great player in control they could do almost all content and carry their weight, it just wouldnt be ideal.

So you could still play that weak DPS as DPS, it just wouldnt be ideal. And playing as DPS means you would give up being able to do great heals. Whereas now we have 8 billion skillpoints so we can be masters of every skill line all at the same time.

xXMeowMeowXx

idk wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

This is not WoW where classes only fit strictly one role

+1000

It is great this game is not as limiting as other MMORPGs I have played. Sadly some do not understand that.

You got it !! Having the choice and a cool af community that helps you theorycraft different classes for tanks and other mischievous delights is FUN Cx

Play some other classes if you’re not enjoying what you are playing. ESO has a lot to choose from to make you smile.

Faulgor

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Exactly and the fact that some roles *cough* healer*cough are optional in group content because everyone has awesome heals tells you how garbage the system is. None healers should have to depend on pots mainly to regen health. Not able to back bar an entire triage center.

I think this has less to do with classes and more with the fact that you don't have to dedicate to healing stat-wise, as it scales off the same stats as damage skills. Especially Vigor should have never been a thing, imo, as magicka heals at least require a resto staff most of the time.

We don't have the same issue with tanking for example, or people wouldn't complain about fake tanks so much.

Ysbriel

The best thing about combat and character creation in this game is that your Class doesn't dictate your roll.

KillsAllElves

BiS tank-DK
BiS healer-wimplar
Everything else-DPS.......................................

Toanis

All classes are quite different in their playstyle and each covers a couple of fantasy class tropes.

DK= Warrior / Fire Mage
Templar = Paladin / Cleric
Sorc = Conjurer / Lightning Mage
NB= Rogue / Shadow Mage
Warden = Ranger / Druid / Ice Mage
Necro = Death Knight / Warlock / Necromancer (duh.)

Which group-roles you can fulfill in endgame shouldn't be tied to your choice at char gen.
Luckily ESO has non-class skill lines and set bonuses that allow us to pick our role despite our class.

FierceSam

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Imo every class should have a unique identity. And this is what I think they should be.

Dk:
Tanky, able to stand ground. Strong ults.
Stone, fire, and poison elements.

Sorc:
Fast strong burst.
Wind and lightning elements

Nb:
Squishy stealthy and bursty.
Shadow elements with illusion magic.

Templar:
Healing and group utility,
Light based.

Warden:
All round but not super strong at any.
Plant, ice, and animal based

Necro:
All round like warden. Summon based.
Disease element for stam. Mag is debatable.

Any thoughts? Zos keeps homogenising classes. They should all be different and unique.

You are confusing what a class is with what a member of that class does

Class identity is what a class is. This is what makes each class unique. At best this should exemplify the class in a single short description (no easy task)

Eg DK = fire warrior

Role is distinct from class. And while ideally all classes can do any role, each class will do it slightly differently (and in keeping with their class identity). This is especially true of tanking, where the two principal taunting skills are from weapon skill/guild lines that apply equally to all classes.

Skills are distinct from class identity. Although they should always reflect that identity.

Eg DK skills would revolve around fire, its force and power and its manipulation

Or a DK tank might use chains, while a Warden tank might use frozen gate to bring in and control enemies

I think both ZOS and players still struggle to clearly articulate class identities. Until these are clear(er) classes will always feel a bit wishy washy.

Leeched

Yes, classes SHOULD be better in some things than others but thanks to people like most of the ones in this thread here, my magblade now has tank and some less than medicore heal skills while the dps part turned into a big pile of doggypoo in PvP (all projectiles, easy to avoid). Meanwhile it still has no good burst heal and is squishy af, if you dont want to play some zero dmg tank build. Once it had huge dmg output but was squishy but all dmg got neutered so much, its just a worse magsorc now.
The class SHOULD hit hard and be squishy or just give it a decent burst heal, if you wanna water down class identity even more.