Extended Ritual, why is it any good?

fred4

As an occasional magplar, Extended Ritual is a skill I don't get. It seems to be regarded as essential, with PvPers scarcely giving that a second thought. Kristofer ESO's Ghost build could be played on any class, but I think he misses the purge terribly when he's not on stamplar. People like Isth3reno1else, also on YouTube, if they're going to single out a templar skill as OP and overloaded, it's this one. Well, I don't get it and these are my counterarguments:

(1) The skill is terribly expensive. It lasts a long time as a heal, but that only comes into play, if you are staying put in one place. Well, I'm constantly on the move, so what good is that? People say it's huge but, errr, no it's not. The stay in your house idea was never a good one and has been thoroughly superseded by sources of speed in the current game (Steed, Swift, RAT) and by Toppling Charge having become a good and popular skill. Magplar plays like quite the mobile stamina class these days. I much prefer Radiating Regeneration. It's far cheaper and stays with you. In fact, with a vMA resto it's basically free.

(2) As a snare removal tool I find it completely useless, because it provides no immunity and, again, is far too expensive. It's no substitute for RAT or Mist. Furthermore, I am now playing my templar with Sugar Skulls, 16K stamina and Bloodspawn, but it's no good. Once you run out of stamina, you're out, and it doesn't come back fast enough for my playstyle, which favors some dodge rolls. This may have something to do with me not playing vampires nor using Mist. At any rate, because of this, I find Ritual competes with Meditate for bar space. I highly value stam regen, more than the purge basically. I have 1.3K on my magblade. Whichever way you slice it, in order to get such stam sustain, you're going to make sacrifices in your gear, in your magicka sustain by switching to Restoring Focus, or you have to slot Meditate. Basically for my playstyle this beats Extended Ritual and you compromise your damage or your skill bars too much by incorporating both.

(3) I find purges very situational. Yes, it's a good move in some situations, but casting Ritual costs a GCD and is more expensive than Honor the Dead. It is not something I've ever found all that useful when I can heal through the damage like every other class. In fact templar's problem used to be a lack of healing over time and this may have been the reason ZOS added such a strong HOT to Ritual. This is what allows you to stay on attack and what makes it less likely you're backed into heal spam, but if you're strictly after the HOT, Regeneration is better. Fine, if you want a 1H+S back bar, then I would go for Ritual, but there are other advantages to a resto staff. It plays well to activate a Berserker enchant, for example, and it's better for restoring magicka than a lightning staff.

(4) The snare is not something I even think about. I suppose that's because my main is a RAT-spamming magblade. Against that build it's a complete non-issue. I don't think it adds much to Ritual, but I could be wrong.

I play solo or in small PuGs in CP Cyro and IC. Paradoxically I use Extended Ritual on stamplar as my magicka dump, but on magplar ... meh. I'm not saying I'm correct. Even in the context of my build and playstyle, I'm not sure what I'd end up with if I played templar for longer stints than I do. Let me know why you're running Extended Ritual and how your playstyle possibly differs from mine. Is it more about group play, stacking rituals and the synergy for example?

ecru

i'll just copy my post from another thread. extended ritual is probably the most overloaded skill in the game.

ecru wrote: »

Oh yeah, to contribute, Extended Ritual in my opinion is the most overloaded/overpowered skill in the game.

Extended Ritual:

-Largest Ground aoe in the entire game besides Blood Altar.
-Provides Minor Mending to the caster
-Removes 5 debuffs/dots off of the caster
-Heals for as much HPS as Healing Springs but with a duration 3 times as long, and slightly less HPS than Illustrious healing, but for twice as long. One cast of Extended Ritual heals for 40% more than one cast of Illustrious healing. I know people will say, "well, Extended Ritual costs more", but Illustrious Healing (which only heals) only has a 20% higher ratio of healing/mag, and is 85% more efficient than Healing Springs.
-Permanently snares everyone inside of the ground aoe for 24 seconds, in my opinion making it the most powerful CC ability in the entire game.
-Provides the most powerful synergy in the game to group members (Purify), giving them resources back when they activate the synergy, providing a large burst heal, and removing all debuffs/dots from the person activating the synergy. This gives Extended Ritual the power to mitigate more damage and more debuffs than essentially any other ability in the game with a single cast, including ults. Consider Efficient Purge or Cleanse, which costs much more, removes less off of the caster than Extended RItual, and has a limit to the amount of debuffs it can remove per cast. I realize the synergy is on a cooldown, but everything you're getting from that synergy, even every 20 seconds, is better than abilities that cost much more mag. Purify has saved my ass and allowed me live when I otherwise would have died waaaay too many times to count in a BG.

It's basically three abilities in one. On it's own, the heal, the duration, and the area it covers is already extremely powerful. Then you throw in the self purge, minor mending, and the synergy, the snare and.. what? I don't understand why this ability still exists in it's current form, but then again I don't understand most of the balance decisions that ZOS makes.

edit: I noticed you said you don't even think about the snare. The snare from ER is the most powerful CC in the game. Your opponents being permanently snared means that you can both kite them when you need to, and prevents them from kiting you when they want to. It gives you the advantage of being able to decide when combat starts, and when it ends. Taking too much damage? Sprint away, your opponent is snared. Your opponent is taking too much damage? They sprint away, and their movement speed is likely now only equal to yours. This isn't just your advantage, it's an advantage everyone on your team (in a BG) gets.

artal

Now i really seen everything. Its one of the best skills in game and now its not good?
If you dont want it send it to dk 😊

Iskiab

There are still some dots and debuffs in pvp. It’s good to heal and clear the garbage off yourself after line of sighting. Spamming HTD is good, but I find ritual - HTD better after recovering from misting behind a rock when you’re being chased by a group.

Otherwise it’s like a lot of other abilities where casting it just turns the advantage to you in a straight up fight because of the healing and passives

.

artal wrote: »

Now i really seen everything. Its one of the best skills in game and now its not good?
If you dont want it send it to dk 😊

OP’s a magblade dabbling in other classes, he’s just asking how to best use it.

Royaji

Ah, yes. An AOE with the size nearly big enough to cover you mom which purges you, heals you and your allies, gives you Minor Mending, provides a purge to your allies and snares every oponnent by 30% for 24 seconds is such a terribly weak skill!

Sure.

Sanguinor2

The 5 debuff purge is extremly good, that alone makes it worth slotting since you can purge debuffs like 20% increased dmg taken from nb, Major vuln from necro and similar. Its also the more consistent Access to minor mending through the passives since you dont recast rune all that often and the area is much larger. Try playing with RoR for a bit. I missed the 3 extra purges very quickly and it was very noticeable in higher mmr bgs or soloing in cyro. It also gives the purify Synergy to allies which is very strong.
The healing is nice but I find that in most pvp situations you move out of the area rather quick.

The snare is decent but it being the best cc in the game is laughable at best when bombard and ice Blockade are much more potent for kiting and it is overriden anyway if you are on the offensive as a magplar since both reflective light and sweeps are a bigger snare, honestly I wouldnt care much if they replaced the snare passive with something else since most People run snare removals anyway.

Iskiab

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

The 5 debuff purge is extremly good, that alone makes it worth slotting since you can purge debuffs like 20% increased dmg taken from nb, Major vuln from necro and similar. Its also the more consistent Access to minor mending through the passives since you dont recast rune all that often and the area is much larger. Try playing with RoR for a bit. I missed the 3 extra purges very quickly and it was very noticeable in higher mmr bgs or soloing in cyro. It also gives the purify Synergy to allies which is very strong.
The healing is nice but I find that in most pvp situations you move out of the area rather quick.

The snare is decent but it being the best cc in the game is laughable at best when bombard and ice Blockade are much more potent for kiting and it is overriden anyway if you are on the offensive as a magplar since both reflective light and sweeps are a bigger snare, honestly I wouldnt care much if they replaced the snare passive with something else since most People run snare removals anyway.

Those snares from reflective light and sweeps require attacking and hitting people. Ritual is much better if you’re kiting a group.

Sanguinor2

Iskiab wrote: »

Those snares from reflective light and sweeps require attacking and hitting people. Ritual is much better if you’re kiting a group.

True, still doesnt make it the best cc in the game imo, ice Blockade snare is much bigger and if you just place it behind you it stops movement well enough too. Was also kinda implied with saying that it is overridden when you are on the offensive.

idk

ecru wrote: »

i'll just copy my post from another thread. extended ritual is probably the most overloaded skill in the game.

ecru wrote: »

Oh yeah, to contribute, Extended Ritual in my opinion is the most overloaded/overpowered skill in the game.

Extended Ritual:

-Largest Ground aoe in the entire game besides Blood Altar.
-Provides Minor Mending to the caster
-Removes 5 debuffs/dots off of the caster
-Heals for as much HPS as Healing Springs but with a duration 3 times as long, and slightly less HPS than Illustrious healing, but for twice as long. One cast of Extended Ritual heals for 40% more than one cast of Illustrious healing. I know people will say, "well, Extended Ritual costs more", but Illustrious Healing (which only heals) only has a 20% higher ratio of healing/mag, and is 85% more efficient than Healing Springs.
-Permanently snares everyone inside of the ground aoe for 24 seconds, in my opinion making it the most powerful CC ability in the entire game.
-Provides the most powerful synergy in the game to group members (Purify), giving them resources back when they activate the synergy, providing a large burst heal, and removing all debuffs/dots from the person activating the synergy. This gives Extended Ritual the power to mitigate more damage and more debuffs than essentially any other ability in the game with a single cast, including ults. Consider Efficient Purge or Cleanse, which costs much more, removes less off of the caster than Extended RItual, and has a limit to the amount of debuffs it can remove per cast. I realize the synergy is on a cooldown, but everything you're getting from that synergy, even every 20 seconds, is better than abilities that cost much more mag. Purify has saved my ass and allowed me live when I otherwise would have died waaaay too many times to count in a BG.

It's basically three abilities in one. On it's own, the heal, the duration, and the area it covers is already extremely powerful. Then you throw in the self purge, minor mending, and the synergy, the snare and.. what? I don't understand why this ability still exists in it's current form, but then again I don't understand most of the balance decisions that ZOS makes.

edit: I noticed you said you don't even think about the snare. The snare from ER is the most powerful CC in the game. Your opponents being permanently snared means that you can both kite them when you need to, and prevents them from kiting you when they want to. It gives you the advantage of being able to decide when combat starts, and when it ends. Taking too much damage? Sprint away, your opponent is snared. Your opponent is taking too much damage? They sprint away, and their movement speed is likely now only equal to yours. This isn't just your advantage, it's an advantage everyone on your team (in a BG) gets.

Good to point that out. And no offense to the OP but often people see a limited context of a skill and do notice the entire picture.

MartiniDaniels

Because one button press removes all the work done by magsorc or magDK in burst preparation I absolutely love this ability... and it is not terribly expensive for all the pack it provides, it is much better then "efficient purge" if you play solo. Like times better.

Alienoutlaw

put it down near a rock and watch em find another rock lol i love this skill

fred4

For clarification, I never said the skill was bad, but neither do I find it OP. It is teetering on the edge of making it onto my bar, which I suppose makes it balanced from my point of view. Posts claiming it's the most powerful CC in the game are so obviously hyperbolic, they are not helpful. The answer that best resonates with me, so far, is @Sanguinor2's.

Claiming a skill is overloaded has IMO never been a good argument for nerfing it, like some are asking for. That killed Crippling Grasp and yet here we are with the recent Arctic Blast changes, which is now about as overloaded as I've seen, even if you still don't like the skill. ZOS themselves are inconsistent. (Utility) skills having few effects IMO tends to result in a dull, homogenized design, because the combination of effects is one of the things that makes skills unique. It's also arguably a factor in what skills players select, because of limited bar space. One of the good things about templar is how you can get away with relatively few buffs. This leaves you more room for situational combat skills, such as the gap closer and execute, which I personally find more fun having than for example being a magden, a rather buff-heavy class without those attack skills.

Gnortranermara

Ritual of Ret is literally Wall (in a bigger AOE) + Healing Springs (in a bigger AOE) + personal Cleanse + synergy Cleanse + Minor Mending + large AOE snare

All for the price of a Wall. "Expensive"? Not at all. As a Templar main since I started this game, I'll readily admit this skill is currently overloaded. Don't worry though: based on this combat dev team's track record, they'll overnerf it next patch. They are incapable of subtle, proper balancing. They should seriously be giving these devs a math test before they hire them.

Iskiab

fred4 wrote: »

This leaves you more room for situational combat skills, such as the gap closer and execute, which I personally find more fun having than for example being a magden, a rather buff-heavy class without those attack skills.

This is true yea. I made a magden because I saw all the great buffs and skills they have. Once I was done I realized I can’t fit them all on one build.

You need some skills to be overloaded. It’s one of the reasons I didn’t like Necros, a lot of their stuff is damage or cc or buff, it makes it harder to make a build out of it.

EtTuBrutus

Two issues with it. It is it's balanced around being "expensive" and it's is, but it's not really.

Also, its a great skill solo, but it's incredibly impactful in a small group environment as the value really increases. No other class defining defensive skills impact your team like extended ritual does. It's probably the best group skill in game.

ecru

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Those snares from reflective light and sweeps require attacking and hitting people. Ritual is much better if you’re kiting a group.

True, still doesnt make it the best cc in the game imo, ice Blockade snare is much bigger and if you just place it behind you it stops movement well enough too. Was also kinda implied with saying that it is overridden when you are on the offensive.

ice blockade covers a pretty small area in comparison. you can't just drop a blockade and snare everyone in a gigantic area like you can with ritual, so imo ritual is still much better for a group overall. ice blockade is good, but i'd rather have a templar placing ritual on my team, giving me more freedom of where i can kite, rather than be stuck kiting enemies through a narrow blockade. sure blockade will be better in narrow areas/corridors, but ritual is good everywhere.

Qbiken

I'm all for removing the snare from ritual, snares are annoying and should be on a very limited amount of skills. Other than that I think ER is fine as it is. Classes need some abilities to be a bit "overloaded" in order to be viable in certain situations. Sadly ZOS keeps stripping these features of other classes rather than keeping each class more unique.

I feel like most nerf requests these days comes from the fact that players own classes got some un warranted nerfs, and therefore want other classes to receive the same treatment. Not because it's actually needed, but because if I can't have good things, no one else should either.

But people act like extended ritual is the most godlike skill in the game (which it really isn't) and thinking listing all passives and features it provides is some kind of argument to why it's "too good".

Again, remove the snare and the skill is fine.

leepalmer95

I crit heal others for like 2.5k with ritual. It's a self purge skill that makes me a better healer than most healers.

FrankonPC

ecru wrote: »

i'll just copy my post from another thread. extended ritual is probably the most overloaded skill in the game.

The short handed version of my answer is his post^. As a heal it's as strong or stronger than most ground based aoe heals. People cite the cost, but it lasts for 24 seconds. Refreshing path is "technically" cheaper per cast, but it lasts for 10 seconds instead of 24. To keep refreshing up for the same duration as extended it's going to cost over 7k magicka vs the 4860 of extended. Ash cloud is more expensive, a smaller radius and a shorter duration. you're going to spend roughly 8k to keep similar uptime on ash cloud.

It's a little less than half the healing of vigor over the same 4 second duration, except it lasts for 24 seconds.

Now, this isn't to say that the heal "should" be nerfed, refreshing path and ash cloud are both not very good in pvp due to the size of are of the heal as well as the duration. it's not that refreshing is bad, but it only really shines in a tower.

The point is that it rivals other ground based heals on heals alone. On top of that it removes 5 negative effects per cast, which in most patches is one of the most powerful abilities in the game. This patch it isn't "as" important because healing is so great, but in scalebreaker it was the best thing to have on all classes, in my opinion. I was wearing curse eater just for the purge. In elsweyr it was also valuable. The purge skill being as strong as it is is why curse eater got adjusted almost immediately after it was changed, and why purge is so expensive. Hell, even efficient purge isn't as efficient as extended.

Then you combine the passive aoe ground snare to go with the increased healing and purge... and my biggest issue, the fact that the heals can all stack, and you create a big ground aoe of passive healing for large groups of people that already have a lot of active healing.

Truth is, the heal in and of itself isn't really that problematic. Support skills SHOULD have a lot of passive abilities. In my opinion, the biggest issue this game has for a lot of toons is that there's not enough bar space for everything you need. I also don't know if it's really stronger than major mending, crit surge etc( you pc guys can comment on that).

The ability stacking with other extended's does make it ridiculous fighting outnumbered. With the change to snares, the snare doesn't bother me nearly as much as it did in scalebreaker. Get rid of the stacking and I'm happy, buff ash cloud, buff refreshing path etc.