Why mag dps is suffering compared to stam?

Bloodraven187

so just looking at some numbers and realizing why magicka dps is so low compared to stam. using equivalent gear you are losing 15% spell damage overall from not having the equivalent passive in light armor that medium armor gives you, 240 base weapon damage for using a staff vs a 2-hand axe, sword or mace, and unless you are a dunmer or altmer you get no racial spell damage boosts to compensate for any of that. so overall a breton mag sorc is losing roughly 1k spell damage compared to a stam sorc. that is a lot of lost damage potential

the only way you are going to make them competitive with each other is to give light armor the same 15% boost to spell damage medium armor has and up the destro staves base damage to be the same as that of a 2-hander. In my experience spell pen is not equivalent since there are so many player based sources being applied you end up going over the soft cap and those passives are thus wasted.

whatever you do DO NOT NERF STAM DPS! the end game pve groups are already struggling to get clears as it is with primarily stam dps groups since that is the only viable way to hit the dps requirements in MOST, not all, cases.

WrathOfInnos

The 4884 Spell Penetration from Light Armor is better than the 15% Weapon Damage and the extra 0.5% crit from Medium Armor. That being said, your point about higher base damage from dual wield and two handed is true.

I think the largest contributors to the stam-mag gap are gear and sustain. Stam has objectively better sets (Lokkestiiz, Relquen, Tzogvins, Advancing, Deadly) and if mag equivalents existed it would be much closer. Even for monster sets, Maarselok is universally good, while Zaan is still situational (requires melee, and does not work at all against dragons in Sunspire). For sustain, stam skills are universally cheaper so it requires far less investment in recovery. Mag is pretty much forced to use False Gods Devotion at this point to sustain a rotation, while nobody uses Vicious Ophidian for end game content.

Kryser

Mag dps is easy mode.

Learn to stam dps and you will enjoy life.

thadjarvis

If you add up the Liko parses from dragonhold of all classes the max parses are 534k stam, 530k mag. So, not really that different for strict parsing.

In content tend to do more damage as Lokk has higher uptime ceiling, Major force is not up 100% hurting MS relative to parse, and the highest damaging rotations are often simpler to learn and execute on stams.

But many mag's bring more cleave (outside of stamcros), synergies, and loose less damage dropping Siroria for pFG as opposed to dropping Relequen for anything else when encounters don't work well for the top parse sets.

I unfortunately doubt that we'll ever see the 12 DD sub classes (mag and stam) so close and balanced again. I'd enjoy it while it lasts.

Xvorg

Kryser wrote: »

Mag dps is easy mode.

Learn to stam dps and you will enjoy life.

Care to elaborate?

Bloodraven187

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

The 4884 Spell Penetration from Light Armor is better than the 15% Weapon Damage and the extra 0.5% crit from Medium Armor. That being said, your point about higher base damage from dual wield and two handed is true.

The spell pen is not better if other sources, which in trial groups is likely, you already hit the soft cap. Once the 10k NPC cap for bosses is reached, any further spell penetration is a full waste. And weakness to elements and cp can cover that by themselves. You don't need it from the armor. The only time that will make an advantage is in PvP where resists will go well over 10k. Also that 4884 equates to about 7% damage reduction at the most. and, as math tells us, 7%<15%. So I will fully disagree with you.

I also did a comparison between a stam dunmer and magica dunmer. The Mag is using false gods, julianos and the apprentice stone for more spell power. The stam is using vicious ophidian, hunding's rage and warrior stone for more weapon damage, both also using the same monster set for a legit comparison (slimecraw in this case),and they have the same racials with both being dunmer. I came up 1100 spell damage short on mag compared to stam.
Which translates to being at a 25% base dps potential deficit as mag compared to stam with the numbers being 2.8k to 3.9k. that is a HUGE difference. That measly difference in damage reduction is not going to make up for that. Especialy if you hit the cap without the armor passive included.

WrathOfInnos

Bloodraven187 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

The 4884 Spell Penetration from Light Armor is better than the 15% Weapon Damage and the extra 0.5% crit from Medium Armor. That being said, your point about higher base damage from dual wield and two handed is true.

The spell pen is not better if other sources, which in trial groups is likely, you already hit the soft cap. Once the 10k NPC cap for bosses is reached, any further spell penetration is a full waste. And weakness to elements and cp can cover that by themselves. You don't need it from the armor. The only time that will make an advantage is in PvP where resists will go well over 10k. Also that 4884 equates to about 7% damage reduction at the most. and, as math tells us, 7%<15%. So I will fully disagree with you.

I also did a comparison between a stam dunmer and magica dunmer. The Mag is using false gods, julianos and the apprentice stone for more spell power. The stam is using vicious ophidian, hunding's rage and warrior stone for more weapon damage, both also using the same monster set for a legit comparison (slimecraw in this case),and they have the same racials with both being dunmer. I came up 1100 spell damage short on mag compared to stam.
Which translates to being at a 25% base dps potential deficit as mag compared to stam with the numbers being 2.8k to 3.9k. that is a HUGE difference. That measly difference in damage reduction is not going to make up for that. Especialy if you hit the cap without the armor passive included.

What has 10k resistance? You mean overland or solo content? AFAIK every dungeon and trial boss has 18.2k, which means that even with every debuff in the game the Light Armor passive is needed, as well as some points in Spell Erosion CP.

Also there’s no way 1100 Weapon or Spell damage is going to result in 25% DPS loss. It’s closer to half that value since Max Mag and Stam are also part of the equation.

Bloodraven187

As for which rotations are easier to learn, that is relative to the player, not all players play the same way or have the same reaction times. So to say that either is better than the other is based on an erroneous assumption that all players are equal.

As for pasring, that's pretty useless compared to real trials. A parse is stand and deliver, no moving, no survival skills woven in, and for most people who are dummy huggers, you aren't using the same sets and food to parse as you are to do trials with. If you try you will get great numbers but be complete glass cannons and the moment anything hits you you die. making your dps as well as the person *** has to rez you drop to 0. And before you say healers have to heal through it, no healer can heal you through a 1-shot, so the argument is invalid.

Kryser

Fights that require stand and parse include, vSS bosses, vAA bosses, vmol some bosses, vhrc some bosses, vso some bosses.

So yes, alot of trial fights require you to parse without movement.

Most mag dps in not end game groups just spam shields and heavy attack with a lightning staff.

Bloodraven187

thadjarvis wrote: »

What has 10k resistance? You mean overland or solo content? AFAIK every dungeon and trial boss has 18.2k, which means that even with every debuff in the game the Light Armor passive is needed, as well as some points in Spell Erosion CP.

Also there’s no way 1100 Weapon or Spell damage is going to result in 25% DPS loss. It’s closer to half that value since Max Mag and Stam are also part of the equation.

Welcome to typos, i meant t type just 18k not 10. So my bad. Regardless you are only talking a 7% difference of resist reduction compared to 15% of damage bonus. So you are only getting less than half the effect overall by having penetration of 4.8k than the 15% weapons damage. But as I was refreshing my memory that brought to light another problem. There are less sources for spell penetration than weapon penetration that you can stack, so Mag DPS is suffering there too. And in order to hit that cap you would need to use sets way off meta, which means your overall dps is going to hurt even more.

So I stand by my statements that the damage is better. for the sake of argument, a base damage average on a specific ability is 10k. Add 15% to this and you are at 11.5k. Now reduce the 11.5k by 7% and you end up with only doing 10.7k. May not seem like much. Now let's say that over the course of a minute you use that ability 50 times, and the differnce adds op to 805 less from the pen than from the bonus damage. You basically lost 40,250 damage total from just that ability, or 671 dps, just from that 1 singular ability. So roughly half the damage of a good caltrops or arrow barrage over their respective durations lost. Now make that same % difference apply to everything, including light and heavy attacks.

I didn't factor max stam vs max mag as those vary from character to character. I am talking about in JUST what you get from the gear and passives from said gear. And I hate to say it, but math is not on your side.

Edit, for the sake of covering my numbers I took the same 10k and added the 7% bonus you would get from the spell pen instead of the 15% bonus damage. you end up with the same 800 or so difference in base damage for that example ability.

Bloodraven187

Kryser wrote: »

Fights that require stand and parse include, vSS bosses, vAA bosses, vmol some bosses, vhrc some bosses, vso some bosses.

So yes, alot of trial fights require you to parse without movement.

Most mag dps in not end game groups just spam shields and heavy attack with a lightning staff.

A lot is not most. You are moving in the bulk of trial fights, if only to get out of the bad so you don't die.

AMeanOne

15% more weapon damage is not 15% more overall damage

Sanguinor2

Light armor passive frees up a lot of cp tho. If a stam Player has no sharpened you Need 71 Points in piercing to get the 4.8k pen from light armor passive. Usually stam builds have around 61 cp in piercing while on mag you Maybe have 15 or so in spell Erosion (unless that recently changed?). Dont know if that makes up the weapon Damage/spell Damage difference but its not something you can discard if you want to talk About passive discrepancies. So thats around 50 extra blue cp a mag Player can place in direct Damage, dot Damage, magic + elemental Damage and light attack Damage.

Iskiab

AMeanOne wrote: »

15% more weapon damage is not 15% more overall damage

This is right. The game is more complex then ‘most spell/weapon damage means higher damage’.

Mag is designed around the burning status effect, the maelstrom flame staff on the back bar, and wall of elements. It’s a little different and gets to its peak damage a different way.

Royaji

5k pen from Light Armor passives and generally higher resource pool (by about 5-10k on average) easily makes up for 15% extra Weapon Damage. And if we were to start talking armor passives, it's not magicka who has to deal with Improved Sneak...

Danksta

Bloodraven187 wrote: »

so just looking at some numbers and realizing why magicka dps is so low compared to stam. using equivalent gear you are losing 15% spell damage overall from not having the equivalent passive in light armor that medium armor gives you, 240 base weapon damage for using a staff vs a 2-hand axe, sword or mace, and unless you are a dunmer or altmer you get no racial spell damage boosts to compensate for any of that. so overall a breton mag sorc is losing roughly 1k spell damage compared to a stam sorc. that is a lot of lost damage potential

the only way you are going to make them competitive with each other is to give light armor the same 15% boost to spell damage medium armor has and up the destro staves base damage to be the same as that of a 2-hander. In my experience spell pen is not equivalent since there are so many player based sources being applied you end up going over the soft cap and those passives are thus wasted.

whatever you do DO NOT NERF STAM DPS! the end game pve groups are already struggling to get clears as it is with primarily stam dps groups since that is the only viable way to hit the dps requirements in MOST, not all, cases.

You can clear anything in this game with an all mag group. Can even get the speed run no problem.

KillsAllElves

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

The 4884 Spell Penetration from Light Armor is better than the 15% Weapon Damage and the extra 0.5% crit from Medium Armor. That being said, your point about higher base damage from dual wield and two handed is true.

I think the largest contributors to the stam-mag gap are gear and sustain. Stam has objectively better sets (Lokkestiiz, Relquen, Tzogvins, Advancing, Deadly) and if mag equivalents existed it would be much closer. Even for monster sets, Maarselok is universally good, while Zaan is still situational (requires melee, and does not work at all against dragons in Sunspire). For sustain, stam skills are universally cheaper so it requires far less investment in recovery. Mag is pretty much forced to use False Gods Devotion at this point to sustain a rotation, while nobody uses Vicious Ophidian for end game content.

I rather have spell damage than the 4884 penetration which is marginal.

Skullstachio

Just to iterate on an accurate setting, overland mobs have 9100 armor, while as a previous commenter said which is accurate, Group dungeon/ Trial bosses have 18,200 armor.

4884 spell penetration from Concentration II is equivalent to 53.7% spell penetration on overland mobs while on trials and dungeon bosses, it is about as close as 26.8% spell penetration.

KillsAllElves

Bloodraven187 wrote: »

so just looking at some numbers and realizing why magicka dps is so low compared to stam. using equivalent gear you are losing 15% spell damage overall from not having the equivalent passive in light armor that medium armor gives you, 240 base weapon damage for using a staff vs a 2-hand axe, sword or mace, and unless you are a dunmer or altmer you get no racial spell damage boosts to compensate for any of that. so overall a breton mag sorc is losing roughly 1k spell damage compared to a stam sorc. that is a lot of lost damage potential

the only way you are going to make them competitive with each other is to give light armor the same 15% boost to spell damage medium armor has and up the destro staves base damage to be the same as that of a 2-hander. In my experience spell pen is not equivalent since there are so many player based sources being applied you end up going over the soft cap and those passives are thus wasted.

whatever you do DO NOT NERF STAM DPS! the end game pve groups are already struggling to get clears as it is with primarily stam dps groups since that is the only viable way to hit the dps requirements in MOST, not all, cases.

In pve stam hits hard because of crit and weapon bonus.

In pvp theres a massive discrepancy between the two armor types. It didnt help matters any better when sheilding defense got nerfed hardand the cost increase to magic. Im not going deny shield stacking was a problem in pvp however there could have been other ways to go about this. The actions taken shows laziness.

colossalvoids

They are not much different by dps especially this particular patch. And surely you can't directly compare magicka to stamina when they build completely different and not favouring the same stats even.
This game is played outside dummy so you might complain that some thing like getting GH or IR are way easier with magicka while going for the best scores are on a stamina side, but again player factor so it's not the same for every group and player, generally progressing content for inexperienced players is smoother on magicka specs (due to passive healing of some classes, range and shields mostly).

Gilvoth

Magicka has ALLWAYS over performed since beta, so to balance this zenimax brought stamina UP to meet with and Match the damage output makgicka has.
you, are now asking, for magicka to again become overpowered.
i hope zenimax does Not do what this thread is requesting and instead maintain what currently exists and see that magicka and stamina are balanced in damage output and defenses.

OG_Kaveman

. @Bloodraven187 for the sake of argument,

For the sake of argument, you have no idea what you are talking about and no clue how the game works.

WrathOfInnos

KillsAllElves wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

The 4884 Spell Penetration from Light Armor is better than the 15% Weapon Damage and the extra 0.5% crit from Medium Armor. That being said, your point about higher base damage from dual wield and two handed is true.

I think the largest contributors to the stam-mag gap are gear and sustain. Stam has objectively better sets (Lokkestiiz, Relquen, Tzogvins, Advancing, Deadly) and if mag equivalents existed it would be much closer. Even for monster sets, Maarselok is universally good, while Zaan is still situational (requires melee, and does not work at all against dragons in Sunspire). For sustain, stam skills are universally cheaper so it requires far less investment in recovery. Mag is pretty much forced to use False Gods Devotion at this point to sustain a rotation, while nobody uses Vicious Ophidian for end game content.

I rather have spell damage than the 4884 penetration which is marginal.

How do you figure? 4884 Spell Pen works out to 10-11% DPS. The 15% Weapon damage isn’t even multiplicative, so it’s effectively around 10-11% increase to that one stat or around 6-7% DPS.

Also there’s no way to get the necessary 5850 Spell Pen from CP’s, Erosion caps out at 5280. Without this passive mag have to use Sharpened weapons (giving up much needed crit from Precise) or the Lover Stone (giving up 19% crit damage from Shadow).

Please don’t come into a thread about Magicka DPS buffs and accidentally argue to make Magicka DPS weaker.

ShadowKyuubi

I think some of the separation comes from weapons and weapon passives. Stamina can pull from essentially two different weapons lines, picking and choosing the best of the lines. Magicka characters can't. We've been locked in the dual inferno setup for ages. If I had the ability to pick two-half cost traits for my staff, I totally would and we could achieve better optimization. Then you can do a comparison off the passives between Bow/DW/2H and Staffs. Axe bleed, for the most part, out-performs its burning counterpart. Being able to passively raise weapon critical from daggers and bow, is pretty big. While staffs just choose to raise either single target or aoe. I mean, DW kinda proves that critical rating is more important than static % raises as swords are not used much. That being said, bows can get a massive damage boost from just being at a decent range and keeping LA stacks up.

I do not think that the entire blame is with weapons, but we have to acknowledge that there is a discrepancy to the buffs and passives available to mag and stam simple because of weapon variety (I am not mentioning skills for a reason, just any passive bonuses).

electromagnets

Is everyone forgetting about the 8% extra damage from the destruction staff passive?

zvavi

electromagnets wrote: »

Is everyone forgetting about the 8% extra damage from the destruction staff passive?

8% single target, but to remind you, stam has the option for 6% towards all damage, and they still prefer the other weapon's passives

Alienoutlaw

Mag Dps has always been lower than stam Dps due to the higher risk of melee combat

KillsAllElves

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

KillsAllElves wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

The 4884 Spell Penetration from Light Armor is better than the 15% Weapon Damage and the extra 0.5% crit from Medium Armor. That being said, your point about higher base damage from dual wield and two handed is true.

I think the largest contributors to the stam-mag gap are gear and sustain. Stam has objectively better sets (Lokkestiiz, Relquen, Tzogvins, Advancing, Deadly) and if mag equivalents existed it would be much closer. Even for monster sets, Maarselok is universally good, while Zaan is still situational (requires melee, and does not work at all against dragons in Sunspire). For sustain, stam skills are universally cheaper so it requires far less investment in recovery. Mag is pretty much forced to use False Gods Devotion at this point to sustain a rotation, while nobody uses Vicious Ophidian for end game content.

I rather have spell damage than the 4884 penetration which is marginal.

How do you figure? 4884 Spell Pen works out to 10-11% DPS. The 15% Weapon damage isn’t even multiplicative, so it’s effectively around 10-11% increase to that one stat or around 6-7% DPS.

Also there’s no way to get the necessary 5850 Spell Pen from CP’s, Erosion caps out at 5280. Without this passive mag have to use Sharpened weapons (giving up much needed crit from Precise) or the Lover Stone (giving up 19% crit damage from Shadow).

Please don’t come into a thread about Magicka DPS buffs and accidentally argue to make Magicka DPS weaker.

In pve trials/dungeons we already have enough penetration, i want crit and damage. This is why i dont have alot have CP in spell erosion. Did a DPS test, i have more spell crit and damage my numbers were higher..

Weapon damage and crit/spell damage and crit will always hit harder than having 4k+ stam or spell penetration.

Even with 10k spell penetration i noticed my DPS go down. i would love to have mag buffs!

Sanguinor2

KillsAllElves wrote: »

In pve trials/dungeons we already have enough penetration, i want crit and damage. This is why i dont have alot have CP in spell erosion. Did a DPS test, i have more spell crit and damage my numbers were higher..

You got it backwards. You dont have a lot of cp in spell Erosion because of the light armor passive not because pen from cp is weak. Stam has 60+ Points in piercing btw unlike mag with numbers like 12 or 15.

KillsAllElves

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

KillsAllElves wrote: »

In pve trials/dungeons we already have enough penetration, i want crit and damage. This is why i dont have alot have CP in spell erosion. Did a DPS test, i have more spell crit and damage my numbers were higher..

You got it backwards. You dont have a lot of cp in spell Erosion because of the light armor passive not because pen from cp is weak. Stam has 60+ Points in piercing btw unlike mag with numbers like 12 or 15.

Im well aware of that. This is why i dont worry about spell pen asmuch as crit.

Btw stam hits harder because of medium armor passives.

Sanguinor2

KillsAllElves wrote: »

Im well aware of that. This is why i dont worry about spell pen asmuch as crit.

Btw stam hits harder because of medium armor passives.

Not too sure on that one, if a stam Player would parse with VO instead of lokke mag would probably hit harder or the same. Main difference for me is Twin blade and blunt and stam sets, lokke, rele, maarselok is incredibly much better than anything mag can use.