question about argonians

JJBoomer

I can't seem to understand how the Argonians could go backwards from being stone workers and stone builders, back to mud huts. Essentially the argonians are devolving. Is there any lore as to why?

Royaji

For Argonians poop hut is a lifestyle.

Better that than inside pocket of someones coat or some lady's shoulder

CE_Nex

There was an event in Argonian history known as Duskfall which saw the decline of their civilization. Nobody knows when this event took place, but some theorize, based on the fact that Elder Argonian's may have taken inspiration from the Dwemer in their crafting, that the Duskfall was in the First Era. Some have theorized that the Duskfall may have been Middle Dawn caused by Marukhati Selectives.

Whatever happened to the Argonians during the Duskfall, the Hist led them to their current lifestyle for the sake of survival.

JJBoomer

CE_Nex wrote: »

There was an event in Argonian history known as Duskfall which saw the decline of their civilization. Nobody knows when this event took place, but some theorize, based on the fact that Elder Argonian's may have taken inspiration from the Dwemer in their crafting, that the Duskfall was in the First Era. Some have theorized that the Duskfall may have been Middle Dawn caused by Marukhati Selectives.

Whatever happened to the Argonians during the Duskfall, the Hist led them to their current lifestyle for the sake of survival.

So the Hist is keeping them in a primitive state? That seems kind of counter productive for survival as the surrounding races continue to advance technologically. Or perhaps being in a primitive state makes them less of a target for genocide or conquest?

Kelces

JJBoomer wrote: »

CE_Nex wrote: »

There was an event in Argonian history known as Duskfall which saw the decline of their civilization. Nobody knows when this event took place, but some theorize, based on the fact that Elder Argonian's may have taken inspiration from the Dwemer in their crafting, that the Duskfall was in the First Era. Some have theorized that the Duskfall may have been Middle Dawn caused by Marukhati Selectives.

Whatever happened to the Argonians during the Duskfall, the Hist led them to their current lifestyle for the sake of survival.

So the Hist is keeping them in a primitive state? That seems kind of counter productive for survival as the surrounding races continue to advance technologically. Or perhaps being in a primitive state makes them less of a target for genocide or conquest?

Technology is not the measure of advancement. Look into reality: "Stupid" pandas for example. We humans are in comparison vastly more advanced in technical terms, but we still have a hard time finding them. This can't be explained by lack of technology obviously, so what is it?

Edit:
I would guess, it has to do with the demise of the dwemer, that made them choose the "safe" path, so not to meet the same fate with technology as the dwemer did.

vestahls

I just see it as Sumer or Ancient Mesopotamian civilizations in general. They achieved incredible feats, then slowly collapsed and never really got back there again. Or ancient Rome or Greece - I mean Italy and Greece aren't bad countries today, but they're nowhere near where they once were.

Civilizations seem to get tired after a while. They conquer and innovate, and then the energy goes out and they go into decline.

VaranisArano

JJBoomer wrote: »

CE_Nex wrote: »

There was an event in Argonian history known as Duskfall which saw the decline of their civilization. Nobody knows when this event took place, but some theorize, based on the fact that Elder Argonian's may have taken inspiration from the Dwemer in their crafting, that the Duskfall was in the First Era. Some have theorized that the Duskfall may have been Middle Dawn caused by Marukhati Selectives.

Whatever happened to the Argonians during the Duskfall, the Hist led them to their current lifestyle for the sake of survival.

So the Hist is keeping them in a primitive state? That seems kind of counter productive for survival as the surrounding races continue to advance technologically. Or perhaps being in a primitive state makes them less of a target for genocide or conquest?

Aside from the predation of Dunmer slaver raids, Black Marsh itself is inhospitable enough that it's extremely hard to invade, conquer, and hold in the lore. The Empire is usually happy with taking a couple cities and holding the rest of the territory in name only.
And when the Argonians want to be, they are more than a match for the other races. During the Oblivion Crisis, they not only beat back the invading Daedra, but forced them to close the Gates themselves to stop the counterinvasion by the Saxheel. Then the Argonians invaded a large part of mainland Morrowind following Red Year.

Kelces

vestahls wrote: »

I just see it as Sumer or Ancient Mesopotamian civilizations in general. They achieved incredible feats, then slowly collapsed and never really got back there again. Or ancient Rome or Greece - I mean Italy and Greece aren't bad countries today, but they're nowhere near where they once were.

Civilizations seem to get tired after a while. They conquer and innovate, and then the energy goes out and they go into decline.

Indeed, I was just about to mention something similar. Just a shame what is being build today with all that supposed "advancement". Very interesting indeed...

PrayingSeraph

Filthy lizards realized that mud huts are better suited for them

In all seriousness, it was a big cultural change where they started believing it foolish to resist Sithis's chaos and change by building stone xanmeers which withstand change. So they discarded their old civilization for a new one. Mud huts are not lasting, which they feel fits Sithis philosophy better

Aristocles22

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Filthy lizards realized that mud huts are better suited for them

In all seriousness, it was a big cultural change where they started believing it foolish to resist Sithis's chaos and change by building stone xanmeers which withstand change. So they discarded their old civilization for a new one. Mud huts are not lasting, which they feel fits Sithis philosophy better

I never believed that. It sounds like a backwards explanation to retroactively justify why their civilization fell. If I had to guess, it had something to do with the Ayleids, and maybe environmental changes.

Tommy_The_Gun

JJBoomer wrote: »

I can't seem to understand how the Argonians could go backwards from being stone workers and stone builders, back to mud huts. Essentially the argonians are devolving. Is there any lore as to why?

I also ask myself the same question.
What happened ?

^ Especially after Murkmire story DLC. To recap, The civilisation that could:
- Rise stone buildings in the middle of the swamp.
- Not only buildings but entire cities and large pyramids (xanamers) with huge dungeons.
- Use sun energy to charge sun-stones that could be used to power various magickal devices.
- Use magick (water magick ?) to create stable barriers (see Lakemire manor player house).

Is now reduced to living in accordance to:
"Dont fight with the current of the river" - basically whenever something happens to you, dont try to improve, dont fight back, accept what happened, you will die anyway.
That is for example why Argonians in
eso live in mud houses. Because it is not ment to last. Sooner or later time will pass and "changes" will happen.

Current argonians is eso are basically living with accordance to umm Sithis ? Because Sithis IS change. But imho this is beeing taken into extreemes. Why for example they don't try to think about improving future for their offspring ?

What is also wierd is that Argonians don't care about their own history. They don't try to preserve any information or historical records. Also any atempt to look at the past is treted as inapropiet heresy it seems.

Usually, when it is hard to find any historical records about certain civilisation it means that something or someone wanted to wipe any trace of existance of said civilization, or was trying to hide something...

I guess we will never know what happened (idk, maybe in some future chapter perhaps ?) For now, we can only assume. My guesses are:
A. Religion - Cult of Sithis, worshiping the "change" mentality casued a "Split" amongs Argonians and they became divided. The original "ancient" Argonians became isolated inside the Black Marsh and they still thrive in their stone cities, but since they are isolated, no one knows about it. The ones that worship "the change" became what we know in ESO.
B. Fall of civilization caused by various invaders. Whenever it was Akavir, Dunmer slavers or Imperials. There were so many attepmts to invade and conquer Black Marsh that it may as well caused the fall of entire civilization.
C. Hist - maybe, just maybe, it is not as it seems to be. Maybe Argonians became ensleved by it at some point and brain-washed to a point that they don't realise it ? It is highly unlikely though.

Btw. Sorry for long post lol.

RaddlemanNumber7

This needs to be considered from the Hist's perspective, not from the point of view of Argonians.

The Hist makes all the big decisions, not the Argonians. The Hist created the Argonians. Blackmarsh belongs to the Hist, not the Argonians. From the Hist's perspective the Argonians only exist to protect and serve the Hist. The Hist is essential but, ultimately, Argonians are disposable.

From what we have seen in the game it appears that the fall of the "Xanmeer civilisation" coincided with the arrival of Elves in large numbers. The Xanmeer Argonians were the target of a systematic campaign of robbery, vandalism, slavery and genocide by the Elves. Co-incidentally this resulted in a lot of damage to the Hist. The Hist reacted.

The Hist decided that the Xanmeer culture was no longer fit for purpose. It was attracting predators. In order to protect itself the Hist adopted a passive strategy that is often used by the weak - "If you own nothing of worth people will stop trying to rob you. If you are unclean people will stop trying to *** interfere with you." The change in the Sithis cult was simply a way of getting Argonians to conform to that new strategy. The Argonians abandoned their old culture and property, and now they own nothing except mud, sticks, poop, poison and disease.

Although I have not seen anything written down, it seems likely that at the same time the Hist made Blackmarsh a far more hostile environment for outsiders. The swamp was made to protect the Hist as well. The Knahaten Flu may well have been part of that defence (kills Elves but leaves Argonians standing).

The Hist's strategy is working. Large parts of Blackmarsh are safe for the Hist, even to the extent that it can still be served by Argonians. True, Argonians are still robbed, enslaved and subjected to genocidal attacks by Elves around the edges of Blackmarsh, but their continuing existence no longer represents an existential threat to the Hist.

Edit; I can't believe that word is on the obscenity filter.

LickingHistSap

The Hist is not 'devolving' the Argonians, and Argonian society has not 'gone backwards'. Looking at their culture this way is extremely ethnocentric.

Argonian society is currently just as 'modern' as any other society. They don't build permanent structures out of stone, but that doesn't mean they have any need to do so.

Current argonians is eso are basically living with accordance to umm Sithis ? Because Sithis IS change. But imho this is beeing taken into extreemes. Why for example they don't try to think about improving future for their offspring ?

This statement is flawed for a whole bunch of reasons, but perhaps the biggest is assuming that Argonians DON'T want conditions to improve. Argonians aren't passively waiting for things to happen to them, they actively seek out change and creative growth.

We see many Argonians still work towards improving society in Black Marsh- Root-Whisper's entire existing is giving a home to the Argonians who never had one- but assuming 'improvement' = 'being the same as the rest of tamriel' is flawed logic. For Argonians, shunatei is a system that works. They live a semi-nomadic life within chaotic swamplands, and as a result their lives are in many ways easier than those that existed during Pre-Duskfall. They have short work days, long periods to relax and pursue their interests, have enough food to provide for their tribe, and seem to enjoy life far more than their ancient counterparts from what we see in Teeth of Sithis and Coldharbour, where they were constantly working and maintaining their Xanmeers.

The Argonian lifestyle is one that works perfectly in Black Marsh, they are by no means primitive or less civilized just because they have a different value set. Argonian's are arguably better off than they were during the 'height' of their society according to them, and why should we question that? Because now they don't care about having to maintain big and costly structures?

Iccotak

Civilization and Evolution are not a straight line.

Argonian culture and in fact Elder Scrolls is all about Cycles an accepting death.
The old way of life of Xanmeers was not meant to last forever, it was going to die eventually. The Argonians that accepted this moved on and adapted - those that didn't perished.

What we are looking at right now is just one step in the ever churning cycle of Argonian culture.
The Oblivion Crisis of the 3rd era seems to have kicked in a Cultural revolution.

Eporem

A question that has come in reading this: Can Argonians be borne in Haj Uxith in Coldharbour. If so would they appear a little different since their Hist Tree is under the influence of Molag Bal. .

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Haj_Uxith - Lore on Haj_Uxith

Enodoc

JJBoomer wrote: »

I can't seem to understand how the Argonians could go backwards from being stone workers and stone builders, back to mud huts. Essentially the argonians are devolving. Is there any lore as to why?

If you look at the broader picture, you may see the entire continent has a general direction of backwards progress.

PrinceShroob

Xukas addresses this in his dialogue in Murkmire:

"I call many round-tongues friends, but even the best of them, in their deep-hearts, think we are fools for letting our stone houses sink into the mud. We call it shunatei... Fear of death. Fear of forgetting. Dryskins build their great cities -- setting every brick with care. But before long, a war, or a storm, or a groundquake breaks it apart, and they are left with ruins just like ours. Square caves where monsters live... To act like [anything lasts forever] is pride, foolishness, or both."

Argonians are perfectly capable of building xanmeers again. They choose not to. Others have addressed this sentiment in this thread, but I wanted to get Xukas' quote in here, since it doesn't appear to be on the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages.

ArchMikem

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Filthy lizards realized that mud huts are better suited for them

In all seriousness, it was a big cultural change where they started believing it foolish to resist Sithis's chaos and change by building stone xanmeers which withstand change. So they discarded their old civilization for a new one. Mud huts are not lasting, which they feel fits Sithis philosophy better

Disregarding that first sentence, this is more or less exactly it. Stone cities go against their belief of living with change.

But then if you remember TES:V lore, a new Argonian king in the late 3rd Era and early 4th unifies the tribes into a new Argonia nation, modernizing their society. It's pretty much a social revolution and i bet their way of life changed as well, so possibly no more thatch huts.

SpaceElf

Enodoc wrote: »

JJBoomer wrote: »

I can't seem to understand how the Argonians could go backwards from being stone workers and stone builders, back to mud huts. Essentially the argonians are devolving. Is there any lore as to why?

If you look at the broader picture, you may see the entire continent has a general direction of backwards progress.

Well...not unlike evolution, as a concept 'progress' has no backwards or forwards, ultimately it's all simply change that's responding to shifting environmental realities. A mammal isn't intrinsically 'better' than say, a fish, because evolution doesn't have a goal, expect to keep existing. Stone isn't better than mud, as long as both materials work as intended.

RaddlemanNumber7

Thankfully, the narratives of TES are a lot richer than the prosaic just-so stories of IRL scientism.

One of the narratives that TES has adopted from the real world is animism. There are earth bones, water spirits, spriggans, and so on. They all have minds of their own. If narrative imperative demands it, in Tamriel the rock can know it is better than the mud, especially if it is a crystal. It may also know that one day, at the end of the kalpa, it will return to the mud from whence it came.

Another IRL narrative TES has incorporated is the four ages of regressive development - Golden Age -> Silver Age -> Bronze Age -> Iron Age. Things are getting worse. It's built into the Lore. The Dawn era's Golden Age of the gods is already over. By 4E we're looking at the last hero in the shape of the last Dragon Born, heading from the Bronze Age into the Iron Age. In the 5th era the whole place is quite literally dropping to bits.

Luckily for the Argonians none of that really matters much. The Hist is a transkalpic survivor. It has a friend in high places. The next kalpa will see all those Argonian souls born again, and deep, deep down they all seem to know it. The Root Whisper quests tell us so.

drakthir

So basically my Argonian character shouldn't buy lakemire xanmeer because it's like against the lore of argonians?
Can he even live there like i mean i can't make it work in my head after learning about their culture and about Sithis and stuff
Any ideas?

RaddlemanNumber7

drakthir wrote: »

So basically my Argonian character shouldn't buy lakemire xanmeer because it's like against the lore of argonians?
Can he even live there like i mean i can't make it work in my head after learning about their culture and about Sithis and stuff
Any ideas?

There's always room for an exception, and the Vestige is 100% exceptional (if you want them to be). None of the Lore stuff that applies to Argonians in general need apply to an Argonian Vestige (if that's the way you want it).

A Vestige choosing to live in an ancient xanmeer is in no way against Lore. It's player choice, pure and simple.

drakthir

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

drakthir wrote: »

So basically my Argonian character shouldn't buy lakemire xanmeer because it's like against the lore of argonians?
Can he even live there like i mean i can't make it work in my head after learning about their culture and about Sithis and stuff
Any ideas?

There's always room for an exception, and the Vestige is 100% exceptional (if you want them to be). None of the Lore stuff that applies to Argonians in general need apply to an Argonian Vestige (if that's the way you want it).

A Vestige choosing to live in an ancient xanmeer is in no way against Lore. It's player choice, pure and simple.

Thank you for the reply, given me some things to think about. I have another question, i havent done shadowfen yet and i havent done the main story in murkmire yet, but i'd like to know, does the Argonian Vestige have a Hist?

RaddlemanNumber7

drakthir wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

drakthir wrote: »

So basically my Argonian character shouldn't buy lakemire xanmeer because it's like against the lore of argonians?
Can he even live there like i mean i can't make it work in my head after learning about their culture and about Sithis and stuff
Any ideas?

There's always room for an exception, and the Vestige is 100% exceptional (if you want them to be). None of the Lore stuff that applies to Argonians in general need apply to an Argonian Vestige (if that's the way you want it).

A Vestige choosing to live in an ancient xanmeer is in no way against Lore. It's player choice, pure and simple.

Thank you for the reply, given me some things to think about. I have another question, i havent done shadowfen yet and i havent done the main story in murkmire yet, but i'd like to know, does the Argonian Vestige have a Hist?

No. So far, the game hasn't reconnected the player character with the Hist. I think it's down to RP / Headcanon if you want your character to be connected to a hist.

Ash_In_My_Sujamma

JJBoomer wrote: »

I can't seem to understand how the Argonians could go backwards from being stone workers and stone builders, back to mud huts. Essentially the argonians are devolving. Is there any lore as to why?

The same way any civilisation can go from a renaissance state to a dark age one. Slow but steady degeneration, stagnation, inaction, passive stance, poor leadership etc. It's really a vicious cycle (at least that's what Plato believed). You can identify the same patterns in smaller ecosystems too. Also, according to the lore, argonians believe in change and they will not try to stop it from happening. They are not the "do not go gently into that good night" type.
Now I need a mod to delete this comment for a real life politics reference.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

drakthir wrote: »

So basically my Argonian character shouldn't buy lakemire xanmeer because it's like against the lore of argonians?
Can he even live there like i mean i can't make it work in my head after learning about their culture and about Sithis and stuff
Any ideas?

Not every argonian worships Sithis and follows that faith. This goes for any race/faith in Tamriel. All races are more or less born everywhere, ( just more in their homelands) and if they are born outside their homeland they likely follow the culture and faith of where they were born and grew up, or a mix of the two.
So there are plenty of argonians born outside Black Marsh, some without a connection to the Hist aswell.

Xargas13

I would really like if they made an expansion about Black Marsh where you venture deep into the land to discover "advanced" argonians living their lives secluded from the rest, not carying about misfortune of others and just want to live their lives and study, something like that.

UppGRAYxDD

As the 2nd Era began, Argonian evolution was at a turning point. Natural selection, the process by which the strongest, the smartest, the fastest, reproduced in greater numbers than the rest, a process which had once favored the noblest traits of lizards, now began to favor different traits. Most science fiction of the day predicted a future that was more civilized and more intelligent. But as time went on, things seemed to be heading in the opposite direction. A dumbing down. How did this happen? Evolution does not necessarily reward intelligence. With no natural predators to thin the herd, it began to simply reward those who reproduced the most, and left the intelligent to become an endangered species.

We now live in mud huts...

*Sponsored by Brawndo, “The thirst mutilator”

korzybski

I enjoyed reading this thread. And props to the individual who mentioned friend-Xukas. Love that guy.

Chaos2088

Xargas13 wrote: »

I would really like if they made an expansion about Black Marsh where you venture deep into the land to discover "advanced" argonians living their lives secluded from the rest, not carying about misfortune of others and just want to live their lives and study, something like that.

That would be cool!!

rexagamemnon

Ever heard of the bronze age collapse?
There are multiple reasons why a society regresses or collapses, and many societies in real world history have collapsed or regressed.
But more importantly, as argonians and argonian lore is these least interesting in TES universe, even worse so than the orcs, why does it even matter how or why regressed/collapsed?