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question about argonians

JJBoomer
JJBoomer
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I can't seem to understand how the Argonians could go backwards from being stone workers and stone builders, back to mud huts. Essentially the argonians are devolving. Is there any lore as to why?
  • Royaji
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    For Argonians poop hut is a lifestyle.

    Better that than inside pocket of someones coat or some lady's shoulder :wink:
  • JJBoomer
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    CE_Nex wrote: »
    There was an event in Argonian history known as Duskfall which saw the decline of their civilization. Nobody knows when this event took place, but some theorize, based on the fact that Elder Argonian's may have taken inspiration from the Dwemer in their crafting, that the Duskfall was in the First Era. Some have theorized that the Duskfall may have been Middle Dawn caused by Marukhati Selectives.

    Whatever happened to the Argonians during the Duskfall, the Hist led them to their current lifestyle for the sake of survival.

    So the Hist is keeping them in a primitive state? That seems kind of counter productive for survival as the surrounding races continue to advance technologically. Or perhaps being in a primitive state makes them less of a target for genocide or conquest?
  • Kelces
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    JJBoomer wrote: »
    CE_Nex wrote: »
    There was an event in Argonian history known as Duskfall which saw the decline of their civilization. Nobody knows when this event took place, but some theorize, based on the fact that Elder Argonian's may have taken inspiration from the Dwemer in their crafting, that the Duskfall was in the First Era. Some have theorized that the Duskfall may have been Middle Dawn caused by Marukhati Selectives.

    Whatever happened to the Argonians during the Duskfall, the Hist led them to their current lifestyle for the sake of survival.

    So the Hist is keeping them in a primitive state? That seems kind of counter productive for survival as the surrounding races continue to advance technologically. Or perhaps being in a primitive state makes them less of a target for genocide or conquest?

    Technology is not the measure of advancement. Look into reality: "Stupid" pandas for example. We humans are in comparison vastly more advanced in technical terms, but we still have a hard time finding them. This can't be explained by lack of technology obviously, so what is it?

    Edit:
    I would guess, it has to do with the demise of the dwemer, that made them choose the "safe" path, so not to meet the same fate with technology as the dwemer did.
    Edited by Kelces on December 30, 2019 1:22PM
    You reveal yourself best in how you play.

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  • vestahls
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    I just see it as Sumer or Ancient Mesopotamian civilizations in general. They achieved incredible feats, then slowly collapsed and never really got back there again. Or ancient Rome or Greece - I mean Italy and Greece aren't bad countries today, but they're nowhere near where they once were.

    Civilizations seem to get tired after a while. They conquer and innovate, and then the energy goes out and they go into decline.
    Almaflexia
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    JJBoomer wrote: »
    CE_Nex wrote: »
    There was an event in Argonian history known as Duskfall which saw the decline of their civilization. Nobody knows when this event took place, but some theorize, based on the fact that Elder Argonian's may have taken inspiration from the Dwemer in their crafting, that the Duskfall was in the First Era. Some have theorized that the Duskfall may have been Middle Dawn caused by Marukhati Selectives.

    Whatever happened to the Argonians during the Duskfall, the Hist led them to their current lifestyle for the sake of survival.

    So the Hist is keeping them in a primitive state? That seems kind of counter productive for survival as the surrounding races continue to advance technologically. Or perhaps being in a primitive state makes them less of a target for genocide or conquest?

    Aside from the predation of Dunmer slaver raids, Black Marsh itself is inhospitable enough that it's extremely hard to invade, conquer, and hold in the lore. The Empire is usually happy with taking a couple cities and holding the rest of the territory in name only.
    And when the Argonians want to be, they are more than a match for the other races. During the Oblivion Crisis, they not only beat back the invading Daedra, but forced them to close the Gates themselves to stop the counterinvasion by the Saxheel. Then the Argonians invaded a large part of mainland Morrowind following Red Year.
  • Kelces
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    vestahls wrote: »
    I just see it as Sumer or Ancient Mesopotamian civilizations in general. They achieved incredible feats, then slowly collapsed and never really got back there again. Or ancient Rome or Greece - I mean Italy and Greece aren't bad countries today, but they're nowhere near where they once were.

    Civilizations seem to get tired after a while. They conquer and innovate, and then the energy goes out and they go into decline.

    Indeed, I was just about to mention something similar. Just a shame what is being build today with all that supposed "advancement". Very interesting indeed...
    You reveal yourself best in how you play.

    Kelces - Argonian Templar
    Farel Donvu - Dark Elf Sorcerer
    Navam Llervu - Dark Elf Dragonknight
    Aniseth - Wood Elf Warden
    Therediel - Wood Elf Templar
    Nilonwy - Wood Elf Nightblade
    Jurupari - Argonian Warden
    Kú-Chulainn - Argonian Sorcerer
    PC - EU
    For the Pact!
  • PrayingSeraph
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    Filthy lizards realized that mud huts are better suited for them ;)

    In all seriousness, it was a big cultural change where they started believing it foolish to resist Sithis's chaos and change by building stone xanmeers which withstand change. So they discarded their old civilization for a new one. Mud huts are not lasting, which they feel fits Sithis philosophy better
  • Aristocles22
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    Filthy lizards realized that mud huts are better suited for them ;)

    In all seriousness, it was a big cultural change where they started believing it foolish to resist Sithis's chaos and change by building stone xanmeers which withstand change. So they discarded their old civilization for a new one. Mud huts are not lasting, which they feel fits Sithis philosophy better

    I never believed that. It sounds like a backwards explanation to retroactively justify why their civilization fell. If I had to guess, it had something to do with the Ayleids, and maybe environmental changes.
  • Tommy_The_Gun
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    JJBoomer wrote: »
    I can't seem to understand how the Argonians could go backwards from being stone workers and stone builders, back to mud huts. Essentially the argonians are devolving. Is there any lore as to why?

    I also ask myself the same question.
    What happened ?

    ^ Especially after Murkmire story DLC. To recap, The civilisation that could:
    - Rise stone buildings in the middle of the swamp.
    - Not only buildings but entire cities and large pyramids (xanamers) with huge dungeons.
    - Use sun energy to charge sun-stones that could be used to power various magickal devices.
    - Use magick (water magick ?) to create stable barriers (see Lakemire manor player house).

    Is now reduced to living in accordance to:
    "Dont fight with the current of the river" - basically whenever something happens to you, dont try to improve, dont fight back, accept what happened, you will die anyway.
    That is for example why Argonians in
    eso live in mud houses. Because it is not ment to last. Sooner or later time will pass and "changes" will happen.

    Current argonians is eso are basically living with accordance to umm Sithis ? Because Sithis IS change. But imho this is beeing taken into extreemes. Why for example they don't try to think about improving future for their offspring ?

    What is also wierd is that Argonians don't care about their own history. They don't try to preserve any information or historical records. Also any atempt to look at the past is treted as inapropiet heresy it seems.

    Usually, when it is hard to find any historical records about certain civilisation it means that something or someone wanted to wipe any trace of existance of said civilization, or was trying to hide something...

    I guess we will never know what happened (idk, maybe in some future chapter perhaps ?) For now, we can only assume. My guesses are:
    A. Religion - Cult of Sithis, worshiping the "change" mentality casued a "Split" amongs Argonians and they became divided. The original "ancient" Argonians became isolated inside the Black Marsh and they still thrive in their stone cities, but since they are isolated, no one knows about it. The ones that worship "the change" became what we know in ESO.
    B. Fall of civilization caused by various invaders. Whenever it was Akavir, Dunmer slavers or Imperials. There were so many attepmts to invade and conquer Black Marsh that it may as well caused the fall of entire civilization.
    C. Hist - maybe, just maybe, it is not as it seems to be. Maybe Argonians became ensleved by it at some point and brain-washed to a point that they don't realise it ? It is highly unlikely though.

    Btw. Sorry for long post lol.
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on January 2, 2020 10:51AM
  • RaddlemanNumber7
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    This needs to be considered from the Hist's perspective, not from the point of view of Argonians.

    The Hist makes all the big decisions, not the Argonians. The Hist created the Argonians. Blackmarsh belongs to the Hist, not the Argonians. From the Hist's perspective the Argonians only exist to protect and serve the Hist. The Hist is essential but, ultimately, Argonians are disposable.

    From what we have seen in the game it appears that the fall of the "Xanmeer civilisation" coincided with the arrival of Elves in large numbers. The Xanmeer Argonians were the target of a systematic campaign of robbery, vandalism, slavery and genocide by the Elves. Co-incidentally this resulted in a lot of damage to the Hist. The Hist reacted.

    The Hist decided that the Xanmeer culture was no longer fit for purpose. It was attracting predators. In order to protect itself the Hist adopted a passive strategy that is often used by the weak - "If you own nothing of worth people will stop trying to rob you. If you are unclean people will stop trying to *** interfere with you." The change in the Sithis cult was simply a way of getting Argonians to conform to that new strategy. The Argonians abandoned their old culture and property, and now they own nothing except mud, sticks, poop, poison and disease.

    Although I have not seen anything written down, it seems likely that at the same time the Hist made Blackmarsh a far more hostile environment for outsiders. The swamp was made to protect the Hist as well. The Knahaten Flu may well have been part of that defence (kills Elves but leaves Argonians standing).

    The Hist's strategy is working. Large parts of Blackmarsh are safe for the Hist, even to the extent that it can still be served by Argonians. True, Argonians are still robbed, enslaved and subjected to genocidal attacks by Elves around the edges of Blackmarsh, but their continuing existence no longer represents an existential threat to the Hist.

    Edit; I can't believe that word is on the obscenity filter.
    Edited by RaddlemanNumber7 on January 2, 2020 11:22AM
    PC EU
  • LickingHistSap
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    The Hist is not 'devolving' the Argonians, and Argonian society has not 'gone backwards'. Looking at their culture this way is extremely ethnocentric.

    Argonian society is currently just as 'modern' as any other society. They don't build permanent structures out of stone, but that doesn't mean they have any need to do so.
    Current argonians is eso are basically living with accordance to umm Sithis ? Because Sithis IS change. But imho this is beeing taken into extreemes. Why for example they don't try to think about improving future for their offspring ?

    This statement is flawed for a whole bunch of reasons, but perhaps the biggest is assuming that Argonians DON'T want conditions to improve. Argonians aren't passively waiting for things to happen to them, they actively seek out change and creative growth.

    We see many Argonians still work towards improving society in Black Marsh- Root-Whisper's entire existing is giving a home to the Argonians who never had one- but assuming 'improvement' = 'being the same as the rest of tamriel' is flawed logic. For Argonians, shunatei is a system that works. They live a semi-nomadic life within chaotic swamplands, and as a result their lives are in many ways easier than those that existed during Pre-Duskfall. They have short work days, long periods to relax and pursue their interests, have enough food to provide for their tribe, and seem to enjoy life far more than their ancient counterparts from what we see in Teeth of Sithis and Coldharbour, where they were constantly working and maintaining their Xanmeers.

    The Argonian lifestyle is one that works perfectly in Black Marsh, they are by no means primitive or less civilized just because they have a different value set. Argonian's are arguably better off than they were during the 'height' of their society according to them, and why should we question that? Because now they don't care about having to maintain big and costly structures?
  • Iccotak
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    Civilization and Evolution are not a straight line.

    Argonian culture and in fact Elder Scrolls is all about Cycles an accepting death.
    The old way of life of Xanmeers was not meant to last forever, it was going to die eventually. The Argonians that accepted this moved on and adapted - those that didn't perished.

    What we are looking at right now is just one step in the ever churning cycle of Argonian culture.
    The Oblivion Crisis of the 3rd era seems to have kicked in a Cultural revolution.
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