Why is Mag DK being punished?

Somewhere

Langeston wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

That 9k molten whip was 4 skills worth of magicka. Compare that cost to something like Snipe or Dizzy or Crystal Frags. The damage is not excessive, it just costs more and has a 4 GCD setup. You can't just spam Molten... well you can but it will be noodle whip.

Well it does more base damage at level 1 than my spammable, (Swallow Soul) it's ~400 magicka cheaper, can proc off balance, and casting it increases your spell damage. Even if you were to just spam it, every other cast is 33% more powerful & it does 15-25% more damage to vampires, which make up a large portion of magicka users.

If that's what qualifies as "wet noodle", what do you consider Swallow Soul to be?

Casting Molten Whip does not give you the bonus, only consumes it. Every other cast is not 33% stronger. The only way to reap the benefits of molten whip is to cast other Ardent Flame abilities while on the bar that molten whip is on. This is pretty easy with burning embers, engulfing flames, and inferno but still costly and time consuming to set up.

madman65

I have a Argonian Mag Dk that loves Magicka but puts out alot DPS. Focus on burn status and DOT`s for AOE`s but also single target. I get around 35-37k DPS on a single target but well over 100k for AOE`s. So just to let everyone know, try shuffling things around and play with it. Find a public dungeon that offers multiple and single targets. Sry, i`m no master player at this but just trying to give something because others have gave to me.

Joinovikova

DK need much more nerft to be similliar to others class

Koensol

Joinovikova wrote: »

DK need much more nerft to be similliar to others class

Says the magsorc main
DK is far from weak, but its also far from OP and as a magsorc you have zero rights to complain with that broken petheal of yours.

NBrookus

Somewhere wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

That 9k molten whip was 4 skills worth of magicka. Compare that cost to something like Snipe or Dizzy or Crystal Frags. The damage is not excessive, it just costs more and has a 4 GCD setup. You can't just spam Molten... well you can but it will be noodle whip.

Well it does more base damage at level 1 than my spammable, (Swallow Soul) it's ~400 magicka cheaper, can proc off balance, and casting it increases your spell damage. Even if you were to just spam it, every other cast is 33% more powerful & it does 15-25% more damage to vampires, which make up a large portion of magicka users.

If that's what qualifies as "wet noodle", what do you consider Swallow Soul to be?

Casting Molten Whip does not give you the bonus, only consumes it. Every other cast is not 33% stronger. The only way to reap the benefits of molten whip is to cast other Ardent Flame abilities while on the bar that molten whip is on. This is pretty easy with burning embers, engulfing flames, and inferno but still costly and time consuming to set up.

Plus in order to proc off balance, you have to add a 5th magicka skill to that combo.

I would call Swallow Soul a HoT that does some damage which also happens to have a 28m range. Concealed Weapon is a much better skill to compare to Whip.

Somewhere

NBrookus wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

That 9k molten whip was 4 skills worth of magicka. Compare that cost to something like Snipe or Dizzy or Crystal Frags. The damage is not excessive, it just costs more and has a 4 GCD setup. You can't just spam Molten... well you can but it will be noodle whip.

Well it does more base damage at level 1 than my spammable, (Swallow Soul) it's ~400 magicka cheaper, can proc off balance, and casting it increases your spell damage. Even if you were to just spam it, every other cast is 33% more powerful & it does 15-25% more damage to vampires, which make up a large portion of magicka users.

If that's what qualifies as "wet noodle", what do you consider Swallow Soul to be?

Casting Molten Whip does not give you the bonus, only consumes it. Every other cast is not 33% stronger. The only way to reap the benefits of molten whip is to cast other Ardent Flame abilities while on the bar that molten whip is on. This is pretty easy with burning embers, engulfing flames, and inferno but still costly and time consuming to set up.

Plus in order to proc off balance, you have to add a 5th magicka skill to that combo.

I would call Swallow Soul a HoT that does some damage which also happens to have a 28m range. Concealed Weapon is a much better skill to compare to Whip.

Well I mean, setting someone off balance shouldn't really be a claim to fame anyway. Dizzying swing and toppling charge always set people off balance, and cliff racer can do it at a certain distance away. Yet rarely do I see people tout that as something amazing, especially with dizzying swing but that is another issue altogether.

Whip needs a stun or immobilize first to set off balance like you said, and then unless you are using Flame Lash which requires off balance as a proc condition there is little you can do with off balance besides heavy attack. I should expect most people here understand that inferno staff heavies, the heavy most magdk will be using, has too much opportunity cost to be useful in all but very very specific scenarios. Off balance is only useful for Flame Lash for a vast majority of dk; a proc condition that requires 2 full casts for the Dk to set up if they are solo.

Honestly, the guy talking about swallow soul is understandably frustrated with swallow soul being as it is. It doesn't take much convincing to see it's probably underbudgeted, but that doesn't really impact whip.

Langeston

Somewhere wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

That 9k molten whip was 4 skills worth of magicka. Compare that cost to something like Snipe or Dizzy or Crystal Frags. The damage is not excessive, it just costs more and has a 4 GCD setup. You can't just spam Molten... well you can but it will be noodle whip.

Well it does more base damage at level 1 than my spammable, (Swallow Soul) it's ~400 magicka cheaper, can proc off balance, and casting it increases your spell damage. Even if you were to just spam it, every other cast is 33% more powerful & it does 15-25% more damage to vampires, which make up a large portion of magicka users.

If that's what qualifies as "wet noodle", what do you consider Swallow Soul to be?

Casting Molten Whip does not give you the bonus, only consumes it. Every other cast is not 33% stronger. The only way to reap the benefits of molten whip is to cast other Ardent Flame abilities while on the bar that molten whip is on. This is pretty easy with burning embers, engulfing flames, and inferno but still costly and time consuming to set up.

Plus in order to proc off balance, you have to add a 5th magicka skill to that combo.

I would call Swallow Soul a HoT that does some damage which also happens to have a 28m range. Concealed Weapon is a much better skill to compare to Whip.

Well I mean, setting someone off balance shouldn't really be a claim to fame anyway. Dizzying swing and toppling charge always set people off balance, and cliff racer can do it at a certain distance away. Yet rarely do I see people tout that as something amazing, especially with dizzying swing but that is another issue altogether.

Whip needs a stun or immobilize first to set off balance like you said, and then unless you are using Flame Lash which requires off balance as a proc condition there is little you can do with off balance besides heavy attack. I should expect most people here understand that inferno staff heavies, the heavy most magdk will be using, has too much opportunity cost to be useful in all but very very specific scenarios. Off balance is only useful for Flame Lash for a vast majority of dk; a proc condition that requires 2 full casts for the Dk to set up if they are solo.

Honestly, the guy talking about swallow soul is understandably frustrated with swallow soul being as it is. It doesn't take much convincing to see it's probably underbudgeted, but that doesn't really impact whip.

Fair points re: Swallow Soul — that was just the first skill to come to mind when considering Molten Whip because it's the spammable that I'm kinda pigeonholed into using. In fairness though, I didn't say setting someone off-balance was Molten Whip's "claim to fame" — it's merely one of a number of aspects of MW that makes it an incredibly powerful skill. The whole point of my post was that perhaps ZOS is reigning in DK's damage by making it necessary to build for sustain.

With MW slotted, a DK's weapon & spell damage is increased by 225 just from using other skills that you'd normally be using anyway. On top of that, MW becomes twice as powerful. MagDK abilities also do flame damage, which does 15-25% more damage to an entire subcategory class of the game.

So all a MagDK needs to do is spam Engulfing Flames 3 times and all of the sudden MW does as much damage as Ferocious Leap. That's 2 abilities that can be used back-to-back that do more damage than any skill available to NBs, including all ultimates — and that's not even including the 15-25% bonus to vampires. And the real kicker is, based on my conversations with MagDKs that also play MagNBs, the sustain for both classes is either comparable or NBs is worse.

And none of this takes into consideration healing or tankiness, both of which DKs hands down do much better. So I kind of feel like I must be missing something when I see people playing a class that can do literally everything better than mine talking about how they're being "punished." Maybe I am missing something — can someone tell me what that might be?

Best Regards

robpr

NEVER compare skills by tooltip alone.
Coag might have some value without additional effects. But you will not ever cast it alone. You will always use it with Fragmented Shield (Major Mending) and Volatile/Hardened Armor (12% healing received while Draconic Power is active). Thats a difference.

JumpmanLane

Langeston wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

That 9k molten whip was 4 skills worth of magicka. Compare that cost to something like Snipe or Dizzy or Crystal Frags. The damage is not excessive, it just costs more and has a 4 GCD setup. You can't just spam Molten... well you can but it will be noodle whip.

Well it does more base damage at level 1 than my spammable, (Swallow Soul) it's ~400 magicka cheaper, can proc off balance, and casting it increases your spell damage. Even if you were to just spam it, every other cast is 33% more powerful & it does 15-25% more damage to vampires, which make up a large portion of magicka users.

If that's what qualifies as "wet noodle", what do you consider Swallow Soul to be?

Casting Molten Whip does not give you the bonus, only consumes it. Every other cast is not 33% stronger. The only way to reap the benefits of molten whip is to cast other Ardent Flame abilities while on the bar that molten whip is on. This is pretty easy with burning embers, engulfing flames, and inferno but still costly and time consuming to set up.

Plus in order to proc off balance, you have to add a 5th magicka skill to that combo.

I would call Swallow Soul a HoT that does some damage which also happens to have a 28m range. Concealed Weapon is a much better skill to compare to Whip.

Well I mean, setting someone off balance shouldn't really be a claim to fame anyway. Dizzying swing and toppling charge always set people off balance, and cliff racer can do it at a certain distance away. Yet rarely do I see people tout that as something amazing, especially with dizzying swing but that is another issue altogether.

Whip needs a stun or immobilize first to set off balance like you said, and then unless you are using Flame Lash which requires off balance as a proc condition there is little you can do with off balance besides heavy attack. I should expect most people here understand that inferno staff heavies, the heavy most magdk will be using, has too much opportunity cost to be useful in all but very very specific scenarios. Off balance is only useful for Flame Lash for a vast majority of dk; a proc condition that requires 2 full casts for the Dk to set up if they are solo.

Honestly, the guy talking about swallow soul is understandably frustrated with swallow soul being as it is. It doesn't take much convincing to see it's probably underbudgeted, but that doesn't really impact whip.

Fair points re: Swallow Soul — that was just the first skill to come to mind when considering Molten Whip because it's the spammable that I'm kinda pigeonholed into using. In fairness though, I didn't say setting someone off-balance was Molten Whip's "claim to fame" — it's merely one of a number of aspects of MW that makes it an incredibly powerful skill. The whole point of my post was that perhaps ZOS is reigning in DK's damage by making it necessary to build for sustain.

With MW slotted, a DK's weapon & spell damage is increased by 225 just from using other skills that you'd normally be using anyway. On top of that, MW becomes twice as powerful. MagDK abilities also do flame damage, which does 15-25% more damage to an entire subcategory class of the game.

So all a MagDK needs to do is spam Engulfing Flames 3 times and all of the sudden MW does as much damage as Ferocious Leap. That's 2 abilities that can be used back-to-back that do more damage than any skill available to NBs, including all ultimates — and that's not even including the 15-25% bonus to vampires. And the real kicker is, based on my conversations with MagDKs that also play MagNBs, the sustain for both classes is either comparable or NBs is worse.

And none of this takes into consideration healing or tankiness, both of which DKs hands down do much better. So I kind of feel like I must be missing something when I see people playing a class that can do literally everything better than mine talking about how they're being "punished." Maybe I am missing something — can someone tell me what that might be?

Best Regards

Spam Engulfing 3x Lol? Do you know what Engulfing costs?

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

After removing a few posts, we must remind everyone that baiting is a violation of the rules that we have in place. When making posts we ask that they be kept civil and constructive, as well as within the guidelines of the rules. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

Somewhere

Langeston wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

That 9k molten whip was 4 skills worth of magicka. Compare that cost to something like Snipe or Dizzy or Crystal Frags. The damage is not excessive, it just costs more and has a 4 GCD setup. You can't just spam Molten... well you can but it will be noodle whip.

Well it does more base damage at level 1 than my spammable, (Swallow Soul) it's ~400 magicka cheaper, can proc off balance, and casting it increases your spell damage. Even if you were to just spam it, every other cast is 33% more powerful & it does 15-25% more damage to vampires, which make up a large portion of magicka users.

If that's what qualifies as "wet noodle", what do you consider Swallow Soul to be?

Casting Molten Whip does not give you the bonus, only consumes it. Every other cast is not 33% stronger. The only way to reap the benefits of molten whip is to cast other Ardent Flame abilities while on the bar that molten whip is on. This is pretty easy with burning embers, engulfing flames, and inferno but still costly and time consuming to set up.

Plus in order to proc off balance, you have to add a 5th magicka skill to that combo.

I would call Swallow Soul a HoT that does some damage which also happens to have a 28m range. Concealed Weapon is a much better skill to compare to Whip.

Well I mean, setting someone off balance shouldn't really be a claim to fame anyway. Dizzying swing and toppling charge always set people off balance, and cliff racer can do it at a certain distance away. Yet rarely do I see people tout that as something amazing, especially with dizzying swing but that is another issue altogether.

Whip needs a stun or immobilize first to set off balance like you said, and then unless you are using Flame Lash which requires off balance as a proc condition there is little you can do with off balance besides heavy attack. I should expect most people here understand that inferno staff heavies, the heavy most magdk will be using, has too much opportunity cost to be useful in all but very very specific scenarios. Off balance is only useful for Flame Lash for a vast majority of dk; a proc condition that requires 2 full casts for the Dk to set up if they are solo.

Honestly, the guy talking about swallow soul is understandably frustrated with swallow soul being as it is. It doesn't take much convincing to see it's probably underbudgeted, but that doesn't really impact whip.

Fair points re: Swallow Soul — that was just the first skill to come to mind when considering Molten Whip because it's the spammable that I'm kinda pigeonholed into using. In fairness though, I didn't say setting someone off-balance was Molten Whip's "claim to fame" — it's merely one of a number of aspects of MW that makes it an incredibly powerful skill. The whole point of my post was that perhaps ZOS is reigning in DK's damage by making it necessary to build for sustain.

With MW slotted, a DK's weapon & spell damage is increased by 225 just from using other skills that you'd normally be using anyway. On top of that, MW becomes twice as powerful. MagDK abilities also do flame damage, which does 15-25% more damage to an entire subcategory class of the game.

So all a MagDK needs to do is spam Engulfing Flames 3 times and all of the sudden MW does as much damage as Ferocious Leap. That's 2 abilities that can be used back-to-back that do more damage than any skill available to NBs, including all ultimates — and that's not even including the 15-25% bonus to vampires. And the real kicker is, based on my conversations with MagDKs that also play MagNBs, the sustain for both classes is either comparable or NBs is worse.

And none of this takes into consideration healing or tankiness, both of which DKs hands down do much better. So I kind of feel like I must be missing something when I see people playing a class that can do literally everything better than mine talking about how they're being "punished." Maybe I am missing something — can someone tell me what that might be?

Best Regards

Oh I know you didnt call it its claim to fame, it was just an expression I used to indicate that really, off balance is kind of a throw away status condition if you cant do much with it.

That said, I dont think magdk feels like it is being punished, but if you're a nb main you understand how it feels to have your skills gutted. Both of the main DK dots have seen a major cost increase in the past year on burning embers (started at only about 1200 ish and now costs about 2800), engulfing costs in the 3000s when it was low 2000, and fossilize saw a cost increase of several hundred magicka. I think some magdk are frustrated that sustain is so tough.

Molten whip is strong but usually I find it inferior to flame lash anyway. The combo you described would cost over 10,000 magicka. That is not sustainable in any way, so there is a cost for us being able to use our spammable as a burst attack. Having 3 stacks of seething fury up for any appreciable amount of time is not realistic since the buff only lasts 5 seconds. My uptime on it in pvp is quite low unless I run around spamming cauterize.

I dont play NB, but I would argue your guys sustain feels as bad as DK because you're technically in the same boat. Your sustain tool isnt on demand like warden, templar, or sorcerer. You and I need to do stuff to get our sustain tool to work, I apply burning and use ultimate and you have siphoning strikes. Yours doesn't actually help you recover magicka as it does just effectively reduce the cost of spells.

To be clear i agree, I dont think magdk is actually in a bad spot, nor did we get punished. We all had big nerfs this year so I get why if someone only played magdk, they'd think they got punished.

Langeston

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

That 9k molten whip was 4 skills worth of magicka. Compare that cost to something like Snipe or Dizzy or Crystal Frags. The damage is not excessive, it just costs more and has a 4 GCD setup. You can't just spam Molten... well you can but it will be noodle whip.

Well it does more base damage at level 1 than my spammable, (Swallow Soul) it's ~400 magicka cheaper, can proc off balance, and casting it increases your spell damage. Even if you were to just spam it, every other cast is 33% more powerful & it does 15-25% more damage to vampires, which make up a large portion of magicka users.

If that's what qualifies as "wet noodle", what do you consider Swallow Soul to be?

Casting Molten Whip does not give you the bonus, only consumes it. Every other cast is not 33% stronger. The only way to reap the benefits of molten whip is to cast other Ardent Flame abilities while on the bar that molten whip is on. This is pretty easy with burning embers, engulfing flames, and inferno but still costly and time consuming to set up.

Plus in order to proc off balance, you have to add a 5th magicka skill to that combo.

I would call Swallow Soul a HoT that does some damage which also happens to have a 28m range. Concealed Weapon is a much better skill to compare to Whip.

Well I mean, setting someone off balance shouldn't really be a claim to fame anyway. Dizzying swing and toppling charge always set people off balance, and cliff racer can do it at a certain distance away. Yet rarely do I see people tout that as something amazing, especially with dizzying swing but that is another issue altogether.

Whip needs a stun or immobilize first to set off balance like you said, and then unless you are using Flame Lash which requires off balance as a proc condition there is little you can do with off balance besides heavy attack. I should expect most people here understand that inferno staff heavies, the heavy most magdk will be using, has too much opportunity cost to be useful in all but very very specific scenarios. Off balance is only useful for Flame Lash for a vast majority of dk; a proc condition that requires 2 full casts for the Dk to set up if they are solo.

Honestly, the guy talking about swallow soul is understandably frustrated with swallow soul being as it is. It doesn't take much convincing to see it's probably underbudgeted, but that doesn't really impact whip.

Fair points re: Swallow Soul — that was just the first skill to come to mind when considering Molten Whip because it's the spammable that I'm kinda pigeonholed into using. In fairness though, I didn't say setting someone off-balance was Molten Whip's "claim to fame" — it's merely one of a number of aspects of MW that makes it an incredibly powerful skill. The whole point of my post was that perhaps ZOS is reigning in DK's damage by making it necessary to build for sustain.

With MW slotted, a DK's weapon & spell damage is increased by 225 just from using other skills that you'd normally be using anyway. On top of that, MW becomes twice as powerful. MagDK abilities also do flame damage, which does 15-25% more damage to an entire subcategory class of the game.

So all a MagDK needs to do is spam Engulfing Flames 3 times and all of the sudden MW does as much damage as Ferocious Leap. That's 2 abilities that can be used back-to-back that do more damage than any skill available to NBs, including all ultimates — and that's not even including the 15-25% bonus to vampires. And the real kicker is, based on my conversations with MagDKs that also play MagNBs, the sustain for both classes is either comparable or NBs is worse.

And none of this takes into consideration healing or tankiness, both of which DKs hands down do much better. So I kind of feel like I must be missing something when I see people playing a class that can do literally everything better than mine talking about how they're being "punished." Maybe I am missing something — can someone tell me what that might be?

Best Regards

Spam Engulfing 3x Lol? Do you know what Engulfing costs?

If that's really all you got from my post then you missed the entire point. Hint: the key sentence begins with "The whole point of my post" lol.

Looking at the DK skills, some are definitely expensive — but you need to look at what your ROI is from using them. Even if you build for sustain, your toolkit allows you to do damage I can only dream of as a NB — even if I go balls-to-the-wall with 3 damage sets & all spell damage glyphs. And since my sustain is such that I'm already required to use a sustain set (and a cost reduction glyph if I want to make sure I don't run out) I couldn't even do that if I wanted to.

So the way I see it, DKs have an option: they can do ridiculously insane damage at the cost of sustain, or they can be comfortable and still do above average damage. Regardless as to which one you pick, you're still going to be incredibly strong. That's why this entire thread is bewildering to me: I'd kill to have DK's "problems."

To be clear: I'm not b*tching about DKs being OP or NBs being underpowered, (although from my perspective both are true) I just feel like DKs are looking a gift horse in the mouth here — if my class had the same options available to it that yours does, I'd be extremely happy.

Fawn4287

Check magdk dps in battlegrounds if you want to see what poor balance is

Langeston

Somewhere wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

That 9k molten whip was 4 skills worth of magicka. Compare that cost to something like Snipe or Dizzy or Crystal Frags. The damage is not excessive, it just costs more and has a 4 GCD setup. You can't just spam Molten... well you can but it will be noodle whip.

Well it does more base damage at level 1 than my spammable, (Swallow Soul) it's ~400 magicka cheaper, can proc off balance, and casting it increases your spell damage. Even if you were to just spam it, every other cast is 33% more powerful & it does 15-25% more damage to vampires, which make up a large portion of magicka users.

If that's what qualifies as "wet noodle", what do you consider Swallow Soul to be?

Casting Molten Whip does not give you the bonus, only consumes it. Every other cast is not 33% stronger. The only way to reap the benefits of molten whip is to cast other Ardent Flame abilities while on the bar that molten whip is on. This is pretty easy with burning embers, engulfing flames, and inferno but still costly and time consuming to set up.

Plus in order to proc off balance, you have to add a 5th magicka skill to that combo.

I would call Swallow Soul a HoT that does some damage which also happens to have a 28m range. Concealed Weapon is a much better skill to compare to Whip.

Well I mean, setting someone off balance shouldn't really be a claim to fame anyway. Dizzying swing and toppling charge always set people off balance, and cliff racer can do it at a certain distance away. Yet rarely do I see people tout that as something amazing, especially with dizzying swing but that is another issue altogether.

Whip needs a stun or immobilize first to set off balance like you said, and then unless you are using Flame Lash which requires off balance as a proc condition there is little you can do with off balance besides heavy attack. I should expect most people here understand that inferno staff heavies, the heavy most magdk will be using, has too much opportunity cost to be useful in all but very very specific scenarios. Off balance is only useful for Flame Lash for a vast majority of dk; a proc condition that requires 2 full casts for the Dk to set up if they are solo.

Honestly, the guy talking about swallow soul is understandably frustrated with swallow soul being as it is. It doesn't take much convincing to see it's probably underbudgeted, but that doesn't really impact whip.

Fair points re: Swallow Soul — that was just the first skill to come to mind when considering Molten Whip because it's the spammable that I'm kinda pigeonholed into using. In fairness though, I didn't say setting someone off-balance was Molten Whip's "claim to fame" — it's merely one of a number of aspects of MW that makes it an incredibly powerful skill. The whole point of my post was that perhaps ZOS is reigning in DK's damage by making it necessary to build for sustain.

With MW slotted, a DK's weapon & spell damage is increased by 225 just from using other skills that you'd normally be using anyway. On top of that, MW becomes twice as powerful. MagDK abilities also do flame damage, which does 15-25% more damage to an entire subcategory class of the game.

So all a MagDK needs to do is spam Engulfing Flames 3 times and all of the sudden MW does as much damage as Ferocious Leap. That's 2 abilities that can be used back-to-back that do more damage than any skill available to NBs, including all ultimates — and that's not even including the 15-25% bonus to vampires. And the real kicker is, based on my conversations with MagDKs that also play MagNBs, the sustain for both classes is either comparable or NBs is worse.

And none of this takes into consideration healing or tankiness, both of which DKs hands down do much better. So I kind of feel like I must be missing something when I see people playing a class that can do literally everything better than mine talking about how they're being "punished." Maybe I am missing something — can someone tell me what that might be?

Best Regards

Oh I know you didnt call it its claim to fame, it was just an expression I used to indicate that really, off balance is kind of a throw away status condition if you cant do much with it.

That said, I dont think magdk feels like it is being punished, but if you're a nb main you understand how it feels to have your skills gutted. Both of the main DK dots have seen a major cost increase in the past year on burning embers (started at only about 1200 ish and now costs about 2800), engulfing costs in the 3000s when it was low 2000, and fossilize saw a cost increase of several hundred magicka. I think some magdk are frustrated that sustain is so tough.

Molten whip is strong but usually I find it inferior to flame lash anyway. The combo you described would cost over 10,000 magicka. That is not sustainable in any way, so there is a cost for us being able to use our spammable as a burst attack. Having 3 stacks of seething fury up for any appreciable amount of time is not realistic since the buff only lasts 5 seconds. My uptime on it in pvp is quite low unless I run around spamming cauterize.

I dont play NB, but I would argue your guys sustain feels as bad as DK because you're technically in the same boat. Your sustain tool isnt on demand like warden, templar, or sorcerer. You and I need to do stuff to get our sustain tool to work, I apply burning and use ultimate and you have siphoning strikes. Yours doesn't actually help you recover magicka as it does just effectively reduce the cost of spells.

To be clear i agree, I dont think magdk is actually in a bad spot, nor did we get punished. We all had big nerfs this year so I get why if someone only played magdk, they'd think they got punished.

Then it's agreed: nerf sorc.

JumpmanLane

Langeston wrote: »

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Somewhere wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

That 9k molten whip was 4 skills worth of magicka. Compare that cost to something like Snipe or Dizzy or Crystal Frags. The damage is not excessive, it just costs more and has a 4 GCD setup. You can't just spam Molten... well you can but it will be noodle whip.

Well it does more base damage at level 1 than my spammable, (Swallow Soul) it's ~400 magicka cheaper, can proc off balance, and casting it increases your spell damage. Even if you were to just spam it, every other cast is 33% more powerful & it does 15-25% more damage to vampires, which make up a large portion of magicka users.

If that's what qualifies as "wet noodle", what do you consider Swallow Soul to be?

Casting Molten Whip does not give you the bonus, only consumes it. Every other cast is not 33% stronger. The only way to reap the benefits of molten whip is to cast other Ardent Flame abilities while on the bar that molten whip is on. This is pretty easy with burning embers, engulfing flames, and inferno but still costly and time consuming to set up.

Plus in order to proc off balance, you have to add a 5th magicka skill to that combo.

I would call Swallow Soul a HoT that does some damage which also happens to have a 28m range. Concealed Weapon is a much better skill to compare to Whip.

Well I mean, setting someone off balance shouldn't really be a claim to fame anyway. Dizzying swing and toppling charge always set people off balance, and cliff racer can do it at a certain distance away. Yet rarely do I see people tout that as something amazing, especially with dizzying swing but that is another issue altogether.

Whip needs a stun or immobilize first to set off balance like you said, and then unless you are using Flame Lash which requires off balance as a proc condition there is little you can do with off balance besides heavy attack. I should expect most people here understand that inferno staff heavies, the heavy most magdk will be using, has too much opportunity cost to be useful in all but very very specific scenarios. Off balance is only useful for Flame Lash for a vast majority of dk; a proc condition that requires 2 full casts for the Dk to set up if they are solo.

Honestly, the guy talking about swallow soul is understandably frustrated with swallow soul being as it is. It doesn't take much convincing to see it's probably underbudgeted, but that doesn't really impact whip.

Fair points re: Swallow Soul — that was just the first skill to come to mind when considering Molten Whip because it's the spammable that I'm kinda pigeonholed into using. In fairness though, I didn't say setting someone off-balance was Molten Whip's "claim to fame" — it's merely one of a number of aspects of MW that makes it an incredibly powerful skill. The whole point of my post was that perhaps ZOS is reigning in DK's damage by making it necessary to build for sustain.

With MW slotted, a DK's weapon & spell damage is increased by 225 just from using other skills that you'd normally be using anyway. On top of that, MW becomes twice as powerful. MagDK abilities also do flame damage, which does 15-25% more damage to an entire subcategory class of the game.

So all a MagDK needs to do is spam Engulfing Flames 3 times and all of the sudden MW does as much damage as Ferocious Leap. That's 2 abilities that can be used back-to-back that do more damage than any skill available to NBs, including all ultimates — and that's not even including the 15-25% bonus to vampires. And the real kicker is, based on my conversations with MagDKs that also play MagNBs, the sustain for both classes is either comparable or NBs is worse.

And none of this takes into consideration healing or tankiness, both of which DKs hands down do much better. So I kind of feel like I must be missing something when I see people playing a class that can do literally everything better than mine talking about how they're being "punished." Maybe I am missing something — can someone tell me what that might be?

Best Regards

Spam Engulfing 3x Lol? Do you know what Engulfing costs?

If that's really all you got from my post then you missed the entire point. Hint: the key sentence begins with "The whole point of my post" lol.

Looking at the DK skills, some are definitely expensive — but you need to look at what your ROI is from using them. Even if you build for sustain, your toolkit allows you to do damage I can only dream of as a NB — even if I go balls-to-the-wall with 3 damage sets & all spell damage glyphs. And since my sustain is such that I'm already required to use a sustain set (and a cost reduction glyph if I want to make sure I don't run out) I couldn't even do that if I wanted to.

So the way I see it, DKs have an option: they can do ridiculously insane damage at the cost of sustain, or they can be comfortable and still do above average damage. Regardless as to which one you pick, you're still going to be incredibly strong. That's why this entire thread is bewildering to me: I'd kill to have DK's "problems."

To be clear: I'm not b*tching about DKs being OP or NBs being underpowered, (although from my perspective both are true) I just feel like DKs are looking a gift horse in the mouth here — if my class had the same options available to it that yours does, I'd be extremely happy.

I run prismatic glyphs on everything which gives me the stats to run witchmother’s. 1400 recovery. Atro mundus. SnB/potentates ice staff for tankiness. Succession Spinner’s.

Flame lash over molten cause I’d rather have the heal. Love Engulfing but I don’t run it. The idea of spamming Engulfing 3x is just foreign to how I learned to play MagDk from the old Seducer Desert Rose Flame Staff Resto, forced to run vamp leveling up days, through the SnB/SnB days lol.

I feel your pain though. Magblades do seem to be having it rough...just from not seeing as many in Cyro...unless they’re all playing Necros or templars lol.

relentless_turnip

I main magdk I just assumed sustain was crap for everyone... I do hope they claw back some of the costs for skills. With the current meta being impossible to kill without a significant amount of investment into damage. Which is made difficult with the cost of skills...

Derra

Iskiab wrote: »

Magsorc is easily the best, anyone who complains about sustain is a noob. There’s a reason sorcs never use Ele drain, dark deal or heavy attack.

Wait what? Is this serious or did i miss the sarcasm anywhere?

Iskiab

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Magsorc is easily the best, anyone who complains about sustain is a noob. There’s a reason sorcs never use Ele drain, dark deal or heavy attack.

Wait what? Is this serious or did i miss the sarcasm anywhere?

Nope, no sarcasm but I meant dark exchange.

Derra

Iskiab wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Magsorc is easily the best, anyone who complains about sustain is a noob. There’s a reason sorcs never use Ele drain, dark deal or heavy attack.

Wait what? Is this serious or did i miss the sarcasm anywhere?

Nope, no sarcasm but I meant dark exchange.

Dark Conversion?

Do you mean no sorc uses the stam to mag convert skill?

Iskiab

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Magsorc is easily the best, anyone who complains about sustain is a noob. There’s a reason sorcs never use Ele drain, dark deal or heavy attack.

Wait what? Is this serious or did i miss the sarcasm anywhere?

Nope, no sarcasm but I meant dark exchange.

Dark Conversion?

Do you mean no sorc uses the stam to mag convert skill?

Nope, it’s very rare that someone uses it. I’ve found most sorcs don’t even know how their own abilities work. There was even a thread where most sorcs didn’t know they could light attack weave overload.

Sorc attracts a lot of poor players, moreso than any other class. It doesn’t take much to dominate as one and most still think the class is underpowered.

Another example is most sorcs think the class has poor sustain. Sorc easily has the best sustain in the game, hands down, no contest. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a noob or has only played a sorc.

Tolino

Iskiab wrote: »

Nope, it’s very rare that someone uses it. I’ve found most sorcs don’t even know how their own abilities work. There was even a thread where most sorcs didn’t know they could light attack weave overload.

Another example is most sorcs think the class has poor sustain. Sorc easily has the best sustain in the game, hands down, no contest. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a noob or has only played a sorc.

Many Magsorcs use "Dark Conversion" ... But they are still one of the classes that invest the most in Magreg. But Magsorcs have no sustain problem because their dmg passives allow them to invest more in sustain than other classes!

Iskiab wrote: »

Sorc attracts a lot of poor players, moreso than any other class. It doesn’t take much to dominate as one and most still think the class is underpowered.

Magsorcs are not generally worse players. Together with the Stamblade, they are simply the most popular class with the most players.


Edit: I think that's the problem with Magdk. They don't have the offensive passive and therefore have to play low sustain to get enough dmg!

Iskiab

Tolino wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Nope, it’s very rare that someone uses it. I’ve found most sorcs don’t even know how their own abilities work. There was even a thread where most sorcs didn’t know they could light attack weave overload.

Another example is most sorcs think the class has poor sustain. Sorc easily has the best sustain in the game, hands down, no contest. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a noob or has only played a sorc.

Many Magsorcs use "Dark Conversion" ... But they are still one of the classes that invest the most in Magreg. But Magsorcs have no sustain problem because their dmg passives allow them to invest more in sustain than other classes!

Iskiab wrote: »

Sorc attracts a lot of poor players, moreso than any other class. It doesn’t take much to dominate as one and most still think the class is underpowered.

Magsorcs are not generally worse players. Together with the Stamblade, they are simply the most popular class with the most players.


Edit: I think that's the problem with Magdk. They don't have the offensive passive and therefore have to play low sustain to get enough dmg!

IDK, I went petsorc wood elf using Chudan, Necropence and BTB. 3x spell damage arcane jewellery. I never really felt the need to heavy attack and it felt like I could streak x4 followed by dark conversion x2 and petheal almost at will. I was thinking of stripping more mag regen and dropping BTB but didn't have a craft alfiq to test.

Derra

Iskiab wrote: »

Another example is most sorcs think the class has poor sustain. Sorc easily has the best sustain in the game, hands down, no contest. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a noob or has only played a sorc.

Or maybe someone who has only zerged on sorc and doesn´t understand how other classes sustain works may think that

Atleast of the 3 mag classes i´ve been soloing with over the past 5 months sorc has the worst sustain. If we count a million ap on magcro (not really that much experience) it´s the worst out of 4 classes.

But then i´m sure i just retired my sorcs bc the class is too good and i finally seek some challenge playing something else

Langeston

Tolino wrote: »

Many Magsorcs use "Dark Conversion" ... But they are still one of the classes that invest the most in Magreg. But Magsorcs have no sustain problem because their dmg passives allow them to invest more in sustain than other classes!

I can only compare sorc to nightblade, but my Altmer magsorc runs with ~75% of the regen of my Breton magblade & it's still way better at sustain — and that's even with a cost reduction glyph on the Breton.

Having to use a sustain race and sustain sets vs a damage race with damage sets on a class that's already weaker is a pretty brutal combination.

Iskiab

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Another example is most sorcs think the class has poor sustain. Sorc easily has the best sustain in the game, hands down, no contest. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a noob or has only played a sorc.

Or maybe someone who has only zerged on sorc and doesn´t understand how other classes sustain works may think that

Atleast of the 3 mag classes i´ve been soloing with over the past 5 months sorc has the worst sustain. If we count a million ap on magcro (not really that much experience) it´s the worst out of 4 classes.

But then i´m sure i just retired my sorcs bc the class is too good and i finally seek some challenge playing something else

I only ran my sorc solo or BGs. Likely a L2P issue.

Langeston

Iskiab wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Another example is most sorcs think the class has poor sustain. Sorc easily has the best sustain in the game, hands down, no contest. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a noob or has only played a sorc.

Or maybe someone who has only zerged on sorc and doesn´t understand how other classes sustain works may think that

Atleast of the 3 mag classes i´ve been soloing with over the past 5 months sorc has the worst sustain. If we count a million ap on magcro (not really that much experience) it´s the worst out of 4 classes.

But then i´m sure i just retired my sorcs bc the class is too good and i finally seek some challenge playing something else

I only ran my sorc solo or BGs. Likely a L2P issue.

That's all I play too, (almost entirely BGs) and I can't imagine running out of magicka on a sorc.

Tolino

@Iskiab and @Langeston I didn't say that the sustain on the Magsorc is bad! But I can play about 300 less Magreg with my magden. + on Magsorc i need more stam-sustain. Magsorc Sustain is fine! But the best?

The difference between Magsorc/Magden/Magplar-Sustain and Magdk/Magblade is simpl. Magdk and Magblade Sustain-tool only works if you actively attack. On the other classes it also helps during kiting!

But now please back to the dk. We already have enough discussions about Sorc!

kojou

They bring whips and chains to the party and complain about being punished?