Does the global cooldown system rewards spam vs skill counter gameplay. Are fundamentals balance?

phoenixkungfu

Hi everyone. After creating a few post I noticed conversations about skill and the definition. Is it skill to reward spam or skill to reward counter gameplay. Well in the gameplay as is now. The global cooldown in pvp rewards spam. IT IS MY BELIEF THAT SPAM IS NOT SKILL. I BELIEVE TIMING IS SKILL. because of this the global cooldown of a sec is unbalance and rewards spam over skill timing counter gameplay. At a minimum I believe the global cooldown should be 3 sec minimum. I believe skill should be rewarded more for well time counter gameplay. After this fundamental balance change I then believe cast time skill that can be effected by a global cooldown should be buff and adjusted accordingly.

Oakmontowls_ESO

As people said in your previous thread, no. The devs have clearly stated that cooldowns have been considered and were ultimately discarded.

phoenixkungfu

I never heard the dev say that. But nice try

Bashev

There are a lot of games with cooldowns, you can play them.
The balance here is the resource management. If you think the combat is too spammy ask for sustain nerfs.

phoenixkungfu

No body want casual player to leave eso. Not everyone plays pvp. There needs to be a line in the sand with issue in pvp gameplay. Global cooldown is a PVP ISSUE. PLEASE LEAVE ANY PVE ELEMENTS OUT OF IT. Sustain nerf would affect pve. They suffer enough from the same group of forum people for year saying wrong stuff. It's time to save my favorite game with guidance. No matter who I have to battle in these forums. Pvp is about issues of counter gameplay. It's as simple as that.

phoenixkungfu

I have seen the same names for years posting. The same ideas in 1 shape or form. Sorry but I disagree with alot of overall ideas. My goal is to provide a fresh take on pvp combat gameplay. My goal is to contribute WITH A SPIRITOF POSITIVITY. Hopefully disagreement can be achieve with agree to disagree. Unfortunately if you think differently your the black sheep. However I'm thankful for a safe space to discuss a common goal. Gameplay balance.

sproattt

I agree somewhat with OP. Spamming *** in PvP ain't the way to go. This is my opinion from a solo PvP standpoint.

They need to have hard, soft ccs and roots on same GCD. As a solo PvP player 9 times outta 10 your being rooted when your about to kill one out of the 24 man group chasing me around PvP. I'm not being outplayed or outskilled in most scenarios its death due to either groups cc'ing, root then stunning you then cost poisons/siphoning *** then either spam chain or spam mark depending on the situation slowly wearing you down. A single GCD for all of the CCs would be beneficial but I doubt it would be implemented, as then you would still have the horrendous PvP performance with a Tanky meta.

Very few play small scale or solo anymore so these CCs right now are REQUIRED because the tank and healing/mitigation meta that we find ourselves in is prodominant In PvP.

Off topic section

---

Why vigour group healing utility got nerfed but gave to magicka on Resto with passives?

AND

All Nb ultimates got cast times yet Templar did not?




Regards.

One Angry Blade.

relentless_turnip

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I have seen the same names for years posting. The same ideas in 1 shape or form. Sorry but I disagree with alot of overall ideas. My goal is to provide a fresh take on pvp combat gameplay. My goal is to contribute WITH A SPIRITOF POSITIVITY. Hopefully disagreement can be achieve with agree to disagree. Unfortunately if you think differently your the black sheep. However I'm thankful for a safe space to discuss a common goal. Gameplay balance.[/quote

IT IS MY BELIEF!!!

"The spirit of positivity" is entirely contradictory when you have posted at least 10 nerf threads 😂👏

PvP is in a great place in terms of balance. Performance is still shocking mind you...

If you don't enjoy the combat system and are unable to counter people keep practicing or play world of Warcraft... They have A LOT of cooldowns👍

Honestly you would be kicking some serious arse by now if you stopped posting shite and started playing the game. I say that in the true "spirit of positivity"😜

Xvorg

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

No body want casual player to leave eso. Not everyone plays pvp. There needs to be a line in the sand with issue in pvp gameplay. Global cooldown is a PVP ISSUE. PLEASE LEAVE ANY PVE ELEMENTS OUT OF IT. Sustain nerf would affect pve. They suffer enough from the same group of forum people for year saying wrong stuff. It's time to save my favorite game with guidance. No matter who I have to battle in these forums. Pvp is about issues of counter gameplay. It's as simple as that.

Do you understand the difference between competitivity vs viability?

You can build a toon that uses a skill per GCD and have a Viable build.

Competitive (which is what I imagine you are trying to convey) is a different issue. Competitive players do not spam attacks, they used them timely and that requires a lot of skill.

If you want to become competitive, you must adapt yourself to the game, and not make us adopt your view of what is right or wrong. In any case if you don't like the way how this game works, you always can try a different game, one that is adjusted to your needs.

I don't like any other MMO and that's why I play ESO, if ZoS decides to change it towards what you think it should be, not only I, but most of the players that play this will leave.

Of course, in that world you could be the supreme potato...

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

After removing a few off topic posts we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

Cathexis

I would argue that spam is just inherent to the mechanics, and a sort of redundant argument, but being able to just one button, period, like the peak days of teleport strike, is just bad.

phoenixkungfu

I'm sorry to ask for change. I wish everything in game was perfect. I wish everything flow. But Unfortunately it doesn't.
I notice the term potato is coming up alot.
Potato - Player who's performance in game is on par with what on would expect from a comatose person.
Sorry to inform all but I have ultra rare achievements that the average player doesn't have my resume is as follow
Flawless conquer
emperor
Bg butcher
Duelist
Pretty much every skin
And yes you better have a zerg in the sewers to stop me(Or out number me 3 to 1). As a result I'm rich. And always spend millions on the best mounts.
Sorry this is not a potato resume and as a 300 day pet sorcerer and well over a year of total gameplay time. I earn the right to have a opinion heard and valued. I love this game and love zos for not just hearing but listening. Thx you zos this is the last time I will speak of this off topic.

phoenixkungfu

On topic the fundamental of 1 of the elements that make the game great is to play as you want. That is never in question.
This is never in question and In my opinion why eso will be forever unique and the best mmo.

The topic is on fundamentals, is the fundamental in favor of spam vs the counter play of abilities. I believe the tools to be successful is all in game the value of global cooldown simply needs to be adjusted. To reward timing over spam. This is the core issues of almost all pvp gameplay. The lack of counter gameplay being universal and REWARDING. I also believe the very definition of skill is also In question.

Should a spammer be rewarded for not giving up on a skill.

Or

Should a will time counter be rewarded with a window to follow up with a counter.

The global cooldown is the pvp answer to this ultimate decision. That is the core issue

jadarock

A year of playtime all on only one character?
You just confirmed what everyone was thinking
All your threads have been l2p issues
Please stop trolling the forum with your ignorant takes go play other classes and get back to us in another year after you've broadened your horizons...

phoenixkungfu

So you baiting attempt is based on knowledge is only achieved by playing all classes take a moment to think about that and how ridiculous that sounds. Smh your the guy forum been listening to? Also I have many hour played on many classes. Not that that has anything to do with anything. Its clear to see your fundamentals is not in a place of balance to solve a solution to achieve universal balance. You have a extremely bias nature let's agree to disagree and keep on topic

Xvorg

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

So you baiting attempt is based on knowledge is only achieved by playing all classes take a moment to think about that and how ridiculous that sounds. Smh your the guy forum been listening to? Also I have many hour played on many classes. Not that that has anything to do with anything. Its clear to see your fundamentals is not in a place of balance to solve a solution to achieve universal balance. You have a extremely bias nature let's agree to disagree and keep on topic

Dude, John Locke, Francis Bacon and David Hume want to have a small chat with you.

You must play the other classes to understand how they behave. I'm sure even Descartes would agree with that.

phoenixkungfu

Agree to disagree agree. Having a knowledge of other classes frame data advantage and disadvantage is knowledge. You dont have to have loads of hours played in any class to understand a class. Smh this is true for any game. However to capitalize on disadvantage is just as important as maximizing your class advantage. This is skill. The issue is the tool to capitalize on a opponent disadvantage is extremely in favor of the one who made a mistake. This is true because of global cooldown being way to short of a duration. Which doesn't allows counterplay to capitalize on a counter.

Xvorg

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Agree to disagree agree. Having a knowledge of other classes frame data advantage and disadvantage is knowledge. You dont have to have loads of hours played in any class to understand a class. Smh this is true for any game. However to capitalize on disadvantage is just as important as maximizing your class advantage. This is skill. The issue is the tool to capitalize on a opponent disadvantage is extremely in favor of the one who made a mistake. This is true because of global cooldown being way to short of a duration. Which doesn't allows counterplay to capitalize on a counter.

whaaaaaat? xDDDD

You have to play the classes to understand how the behave, sorry.

It s not the same seeing the tooltip of jabs to understand how the skill behaves in reality, you must consider all the implications and that includes:

1- resource recovery: is that enough in your build?
2- Mitigation: do you have enough mitigation or you have to block cast jabs?
3- CC awareness: Any CC dropped at a jab spammer should bring you out of pace and that could mean death.


and those are some of the things that come to mi mind based on my poor experience as a stamplar

In fact, the only way you can recognize a mistake done by an oponent is by making the same mistake in a similar situation. You cannot know if s/he made a mistake or just put you a bait so you can eat it.

For example, during some patches I used my mDK as a ganker hunter. I used to stand a little off the main group just to call the attention of a ganker (when gankers were really the most hated spec in the game). I could even predict their movements without havig to drink a detect pot. Do you kow how I learnt to do that? Exactly, by playig a ganking spec.

VaranisArano

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I never heard the dev say that. But nice try

The lack of long cooldowns is one of those design factors that goes back to the beginning of the game, creating a fast-paced, reactive combat in contrast to the other MMOs ESO was competing with.

You can read about how that informed the design of ESO from before launch here: https://kotaku.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-is-not-as-world-of-warcraft-as-5918689

phoenixkungfu

Sorry I disagree, you learned alot based on you experience. And that's great I'm happy your path to enlightenment was discovered this way. While I'm hear to give another prospective. You can also learn gameplay though experience of playing against. We are once again off topic but I feel these issue of who knows more are counters that are just not relevant to the topic of conversation. Although you explanation is understandable. I feel you see change as a bad thing when the reality is the global cooldown example you gave shows how COMBAT IS SLOW DOWN. it so bad that you have to bait a nightblade into attacking you instead of having a feeling if attack you have a balance counter play to keep the nightblade out of stealth. Do you see the difference of how combat is slower.

phoenixkungfu

VaranisArano wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I never heard the dev say that. But nice try

The lack of long cooldowns is one of those design factors that goes back to the beginning of the game, creating a fast-paced, reactive combat in contrast to the other MMOs ESO was competing with.

You can read about how that informed the design of ESO from before launch here: https://kotaku.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-is-not-as-world-of-warcraft-as-5918689

Things evolve meta change. It's clear to see that some form of cooldown is needed. Is it fast gameplay to allow a opponent to continually reset the the fight because of lack of counter play window. Fights or combat gameplay is 100% slower because combat resets everytime a player achieve a global cooldown skill of dark deal, cloak( the list goes on). How is this justified as fast gameplay? Smh global cooldown is 1 of the biggest issue in the game.

VaranisArano

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

I never heard the dev say that. But nice try

The lack of long cooldowns is one of those design factors that goes back to the beginning of the game, creating a fast-paced, reactive combat in contrast to the other MMOs ESO was competing with.

You can read about how that informed the design of ESO from before launch here: https://kotaku.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-is-not-as-world-of-warcraft-as-5918689

Things evolve meta change. It's clear to see that some form of cooldown is needed. Is it fast gameplay to allow a opponent to continually reset the the fight because of lack of counter play window. Fights or combat gameplay is 100% slower because combat resets everytime a player achieve a global cooldown skill of dark deal, cloak( the list goes on). How is this justified as fast gameplay? Smh global cooldown is 1 of the biggest issue in the game.

Look, I'm going to leave it up to you to convince the Devs that they need to change one of the fundamental aspects around which they designed this game's combat.

I'm only posting in here because I felt like taking five minutes to track down a source for you that proved Oakmontowls_ESO's point. The lack of long cooldowns, whether you like them or not, is an intentional and distinct feature of ESO's combat system, working as ZOS intends. Good luck persuading the Devs to change that...

phoenixkungfu

Unfortunately most want change. But most dont have the vision to see change as what it's on a fundamental level.

PLAYERSwant fast combat
PLAYERSwant counter play. They just word it as a opponent can "JUST BURST HEAL UP".
PLAYERSwant pvp only balance
PLAYERS dont want class nerfs or changes
PLAYER WANT CHANGE

THE GLOBAL COOLDOWN AND COUNTER GAMEPLAY SYSTEM IS THE ISSUE AN ANSWER.

phoenixkungfu

Paul Sage, ESO game director: "I think the key thing there is when you look at [things like the clickable toolbar], think of it more as an accessibility thing. When it's designed and laid out, it's there to give you the ability to do something very quickly. So, versus thinking of it as 'it's-the-ability-bar' combat, think of it more as "that's a tool being used to give it a real-time feel.' Certainly some things would have a cooldown, but a lot of things have no cooldown whatsoever. So you're seeing a very reactive, fast-paced combat."

Paul said it best some things will have global cooldown.
THESE VALUES NEED TO BE ADJUSTED

phoenixkungfu

I'm just going to go on record counmmity and say shame on you for ever encouraging any play to leave eso and play a less worthy mmo. Eso is THE BEST MMO OF ALL TIME. why would you encourage someone to play anything less? Smh

Sanguinor2

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Paul Sage, ESO game director: "I think the key thing there is when you look at [things like the clickable toolbar], think of it more as an accessibility thing. When it's designed and laid out, it's there to give you the ability to do something very quickly. So, versus thinking of it as 'it's-the-ability-bar' combat, think of it more as "that's a tool being used to give it a real-time feel.' Certainly some things would have a cooldown, but a lot of things have no cooldown whatsoever. So you're seeing a very reactive, fast-paced combat."

Paul said it best some things will have global cooldown.
THESE VALUES NEED TO BE ADJUSTED

Working as intended Right now. As was said in the Quote, some Things have a cooldown and a lot of Things dont.
Dont really know why you want to Change that since what we have now is Combat working as intended.

Xvorg

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Unfortunately most want change. But most dont have the vision to see change as what it's on a fundamental level.

PLAYERSwant fast combat
PLAYERSwant counter play. They just word it as a opponent can "JUST BURST HEAL UP".
PLAYERSwant pvp only balance
PLAYERS dont want class nerfs or changes
PLAYER WANT CHANGE

THE GLOBAL COOLDOWN AND COUNTER GAMEPLAY SYSTEM IS THE ISSUE AN ANSWER.

Players want no lag... tha's the first thing we all want.

Don't try to manipulate our opinions.

Besides that, ESO identity is a fast paced combat. Period.

phoenixkungfu

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Paul Sage, ESO game director: "I think the key thing there is when you look at [things like the clickable toolbar], think of it more as an accessibility thing. When it's designed and laid out, it's there to give you the ability to do something very quickly. So, versus thinking of it as 'it's-the-ability-bar' combat, think of it more as "that's a tool being used to give it a real-time feel.' Certainly some things would have a cooldown, but a lot of things have no cooldown whatsoever. So you're seeing a very reactive, fast-paced combat."

Paul said it best some things will have global cooldown.
THESE VALUES NEED TO BE ADJUSTED

Working as intended Right now. As was said in the Quote, some Things have a cooldown and a lot of Things dont.
Dont really know why you want to Change that since what we have now is Combat working as intended.

Let's go over this statements. Is a move designed to interrupt just as important as the move being interrupted.

If so is the cooldown goal to PREVENT ADBUSE OF STONG MOVES THAT RESULT IN COMBAT RESET. Creating "FAST COMBAT GAMEPLAY"

IS THE GLOBAL COOLDOWN OF 1 SEC. EFFECTIVE IN PREVENTING SPAM AND GAMEPLAY RESETS.

THEREFORE IS GLOBAL COOLDOWN WORKING AS INTENDED?

Food for thought

Xvorg

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Paul Sage, ESO game director: "I think the key thing there is when you look at [things like the clickable toolbar], think of it more as an accessibility thing. When it's designed and laid out, it's there to give you the ability to do something very quickly. So, versus thinking of it as 'it's-the-ability-bar' combat, think of it more as "that's a tool being used to give it a real-time feel.' Certainly some things would have a cooldown, but a lot of things have no cooldown whatsoever. So you're seeing a very reactive, fast-paced combat."

Paul said it best some things will have global cooldown.
THESE VALUES NEED TO BE ADJUSTED

You know the 1 sec GCD? It allows you to use one skill per second. But you can do a lot of things in one sec besides using a skill, like blocking, bashing, DR, firing a LA... just to name a few.

Xvorg

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Paul Sage, ESO game director: "I think the key thing there is when you look at [things like the clickable toolbar], think of it more as an accessibility thing. When it's designed and laid out, it's there to give you the ability to do something very quickly. So, versus thinking of it as 'it's-the-ability-bar' combat, think of it more as "that's a tool being used to give it a real-time feel.' Certainly some things would have a cooldown, but a lot of things have no cooldown whatsoever. So you're seeing a very reactive, fast-paced combat."

Paul said it best some things will have global cooldown.
THESE VALUES NEED TO BE ADJUSTED

Working as intended Right now. As was said in the Quote, some Things have a cooldown and a lot of Things dont.
Dont really know why you want to Change that since what we have now is Combat working as intended.

Let's go over this statements. Is a move designed to interrupt just as important as the move being interrupted.

If so is the cooldown goal to PREVENT ADBUSE OF STONG MOVES THAT RESULT IN COMBAT RESET. Creating "FAST COMBAT GAMEPLAY"

IS THE GLOBAL COOLDOWN OF 1 SEC. EFFECTIVE IN PREVENTING SPAM AND GAMEPLAY RESETS.

THEREFORE IS GLOBAL COOLDOWN WORKING AS INTENDED?

Food for thought

The global colldown is booooooring.

I supose you at least have played Skyrim. Have you seen any GCD there? What about Oblivion, Morrowind or Daggerfall?

I just LOVE DoS 2, that's a single player (with multiplayer features) turn based RPG with a lot of CDs. But that's a different game, played differently and with a different user in mind. If ESO becomes something similar, then I will not even try ESO, because what I look in eso is a fast paced MMO and not an slow paced RPG

Now, if you want a TES game with long GCDs, try Elder Scrolls Legends... but sorry... people is moving from CCG, maybe because they are tired of GCDs

VaranisArano

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Paul Sage, ESO game director: "I think the key thing there is when you look at [things like the clickable toolbar], think of it more as an accessibility thing. When it's designed and laid out, it's there to give you the ability to do something very quickly. So, versus thinking of it as 'it's-the-ability-bar' combat, think of it more as "that's a tool being used to give it a real-time feel.' Certainly some things would have a cooldown, but a lot of things have no cooldown whatsoever. So you're seeing a very reactive, fast-paced combat."

Paul said it best some things will have global cooldown.
THESE VALUES NEED TO BE ADJUSTED

You are quoting that with pretty much the exact opposite meaning that it has in context.

In context, the interviewer draws a comparison between ESO and WOW based on the cooldowns they thought they saw during the demo.

Matt and Paul then explain how ESO is different, acknowledging that yes, some things do have a cooldown, but most things do not, specifically to create that reactive, fast-paced combat they want. The emphasis in context is very much "We aren't doing WOW-style-cooldown combat."

There's nothing in the context of that quote that suggests that ESO combat would be changed to feature longer/more cooldowns.


Please note that this is also in line with later Dev quotes.
Specifically, Gina addresses it while talking about the Morrowind changes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4016057#Comment_4016057
(Bolded for emphasis)
"Our combat system features fast-paced action where resource management plays a large part in performing effectively. Player abilities in ESO specifically do not have cooldowns for this very reason - resource management is a core pillar of the system. Due to the number of balance changes we’ve made over time, this core pillar of resource management has become trivialized in that it’s become easier than ever to have nearly infinite sustainability while still being fully maximized for damage. The overall goal here is to have a combat system that reinforces decision making and resource management."


Feel free to ask the Devs to change one of the core pillars of ESO's combat system. Just, um, realize that few to no cooldowns are indeed a core part of ESO's combat system.