My First Nerf Thread!

Iskiab

Never been a fan of nerf requests, but there’s one ability that irks me so much I thought I’d mention it because no one else is talking about it.

The Necro ground fear is OP. Can the pulsing fear be scaled down?

Issues:
- with cyrodiil lag break free can take longer and I’ve broken free from it just to be cc’d again
- the fear can interrupt a dodge roll which is super annoying
- While the telegraph is pretty obvious and avoidable, it is not avoidable in certain situations like a keep.
- The ability lag free might be okay, but lag helps make it OP. There have been times I’ve tried to break free with full stam, didn’t work with lag, and had to wait out the full duration of the effect. Since it pulses every 2 seconds it can actually interrupt breaking free from itself

Since there are a million nerf requests for silly things I thought I should mention something that’s actually OP and annoying.

JinxxND

Can't balance a games skill around performance issues such as lag, fix the root of the problem performance. Otherwise you get terrible changes like the evolution of d swing to what it currently is.

NBrookus

Remember when shards stun was OP because it was AOE, and had to be nerfed? That was before they needed to sell Psijic and Necro DLCs.

Yes it's a mess with server lag, but so are a lot of other things. I don't think nerfing a skill because of server performance is a justifiable reason.

PrimusNephilim

the only thing in this game that needs to be nerfed, is the lag

fred4

I have to confess, I don't understand Necro, because I didn't buy Elsweyr. That said, some of what you're saying feels like generic game issues to me and I'm not talking about the lag. I'm talking about what are possibly global cooldown issues. I think the server runs on a clock that ticks away every second. Sometimes, when you break free, you do it immediately when CCd and the server processes it in the same second. That's because you reacted in sync with the global cooldown. The exact timing definitely has an impact, for example when you think about the knockback from a Daedroth fire bomb. Break free early enough and the animation changes and you land on your feet.

Now think about what we normally can fit into a GCD: Light Attack -> Ability -> Bash or dodge roll. That's it. I think the reason dodge rolls are so deadly is that this really holds true. You cannot fit a bash / break free into the same GCD as a dodge roll. In particular, if someone CCs you while you are dodge rolling, it often takes an eternity for you to actually break free. I think this is because you've already used your quota of either a dodge roll or a bash / break free in that GCD and you only break free in the next one.

I didn't know about the pulsing of the Necro CC, but it sounds to me like it merely exacerbates an existing game issue. I think the same problems exists with being feared or leaped in principle. One is that your keyboard input may not be in sync with the server GCD clock, which can introduce a fraction of a second delay as the response is shifted into the next GCD. The other is that having used a dodge roll may inhibit a break free in the same GCD, possibly shifting the response by an entire GCD.

Now add lag.

I cannot say whether my analysis is correct, but I have certainly found that I need to be careful with dodge rolling when I suspect a DK is about to leap me, lest I be trapped in an "unbreakable" CC. On the other hand, if I am correct, then my proposed fix would be to permit a break free (but not a bash) after a dodge roll within the same second. God knows we'll be charged enough stamina for it.

Tommy_The_Gun

JinxxND wrote: »

Can't balance a games skill around performance issues such as lag

I agree, but ZOS did it countless times. So many things got wrecked because of "bad server performance"...

Iskiab

fred4 wrote: »

I have to confess, I don't understand Necro, because I didn't buy Elsweyr. That said, some of what you're saying feels like generic game issues to me and I'm not talking about the lag. I'm talking about what are possibly global cooldown issues. I think the server runs on a clock that ticks away every second. Sometimes, when you break free, you do it immediately when CCd and the server processes it in the same second. That's because you reacted in sync with the global cooldown. The exact timing definitely has an impact, for example when you think about the knockback from a Daedroth fire bomb. Break free early enough and the animation changes and you land on your feet.

Now think about what we normally can fit into a GCD: Light Attack -> Ability -> Bash or dodge roll. That's it. I think the reason dodge rolls are so deadly is that this really holds true. You cannot fit a bash / break free into the same GCD as a dodge roll. In particular, if someone CCs you while you are dodge rolling, it often takes an eternity for you to actually break free. I think this is because you've already used your quota of either a dodge roll or a bash / break free in that GCD and you only break free in the next one.

I didn't know about the pulsing of the Necro CC, but it sounds to me like it merely exacerbates an existing game issue. I think the same problems exists with being feared or leaped in principle. One is that your keyboard input may not be in sync with the server GCD clock, which can introduce a fraction of a second delay as the response is shifted into the next GCD. The other is that having used a dodge roll may inhibit a break free in the same GCD, possibly shifting the response by an entire GCD.

Now add lag.

I cannot say whether my analysis is correct, but I have certainly found that I need to be careful with dodge rolling when I suspect a DK is about to leap me, lest I be trapped in an "unbreakable" CC. On the other hand, if I am correct, then my proposed fix would be to permit a break free (but not a bash) after a dodge roll within the same second. God knows we'll be charged enough stamina for it.

Oh, is that why you can sometimes break free instantaneously and sometimes can’t? I’ve broken free from a dragon leap mid air before. I’ve also noticed that being stunned by multiple people in quick succession interrupts the animation. On a lowby so I had 20k stam, I depleted my entire stamina pool breaking free three times in a row and was still stunned when I died.

Basicly the Necro fear is a ground effect that pulses fear every 2 seconds. It’s a good ability, but rarely seen solo or in BGs. In cyrodiil with lag it’s used all the time. When an entire faction stacks and fights together so there is a lot of lag, break free doesn’t work well. It’s in those situations where it becomes OP. Say for example on the last emp keep, people use them on choke points like entrances or back flags and can cc people for 10+ seconds at its worst.

Earthewen

I totally agree about the Necro fear. The area of effect that it has makes it nearly impossible to get out of . It is a huge area, much larger than the nightblade version, and with the pulse going every 2 seconds you just stand there while your character wiggles. A few of the organized groups seem to understand how it is and end up throwing several of the same skill counting on that inability to get out of it.

Even if you do break free from the first fear, you're usually slowed so much that you get feared again before you can clear the aoe field. Either have it fear once, like the nightblade version, or make the field much smaller. Either would work without throwing the balance too far off or making the skill useless. Right now, it's being overused big time.

xylena

Janky stun animations and unresponsive CC break have nothing to do with the ability itself. I hope that ZOS can one day standardize the amount of time it takes to break out of a stun. Some stuns and breaking them seem to work fine.

As for the ability itself, it's great. PvP needs powerful area denial tools to break up zergs and balls. There aren't enough counters to stacking. DK Ash Cloud and Sorc Liquid Lightning should both be this good. Buff those abilities (and other class AoE abilities) and make them worth using, then Necro fear won't seem overused anymore.

Gilvoth

fred4 wrote: »

I have to confess, I don't understand Necro, because I didn't buy Elsweyr. That said, some of what you're saying feels like generic game issues to me and I'm not talking about the lag. I'm talking about what are possibly global cooldown issues. I think the server runs on a clock that ticks away every second. Sometimes, when you break free, you do it immediately when CCd and the server processes it in the same second. That's because you reacted in sync with the global cooldown. The exact timing definitely has an impact, for example when you think about the knockback from a Daedroth fire bomb. Break free early enough and the animation changes and you land on your feet.

Now think about what we normally can fit into a GCD: Light Attack -> Ability -> Bash or dodge roll. That's it. I think the reason dodge rolls are so deadly is that this really holds true. You cannot fit a bash / break free into the same GCD as a dodge roll. In particular, if someone CCs you while you are dodge rolling, it often takes an eternity for you to actually break free. I think this is because you've already used your quota of either a dodge roll or a bash / break free in that GCD and you only break free in the next one.

I didn't know about the pulsing of the Necro CC, but it sounds to me like it merely exacerbates an existing game issue. I think the same problems exists with being feared or leaped in principle. One is that your keyboard input may not be in sync with the server GCD clock, which can introduce a fraction of a second delay as the response is shifted into the next GCD. The other is that having used a dodge roll may inhibit a break free in the same GCD, possibly shifting the response by an entire GCD.

Now add lag.

I cannot say whether my analysis is correct, but I have certainly found that I need to be careful with dodge rolling when I suspect a DK is about to leap me, lest I be trapped in an "unbreakable" CC. On the other hand, if I am correct, then my proposed fix would be to permit a break free (but not a bash) after a dodge roll within the same second. God knows we'll be charged enough stamina for it.

that makes alot of sense and it sounds true.
i think your right, and if its true then the devs need to change it.

Freakin_Hytte

Earthewen wrote: »

I totally agree about the Necro fear. The area of effect that it has makes it nearly impossible to get out of . It is a huge area, much larger than the nightblade version, and with the pulse going every 2 seconds you just stand there while your character wiggles. A few of the organized groups seem to understand how it is and end up throwing several of the same skill counting on that inability to get out of it.

Even if you do break free from the first fear, you're usually slowed so much that you get feared again before you can clear the aoe field. Either have it fear once, like the nightblade version, or make the field much smaller. Either would work without throwing the balance too far off or making the skill useless. Right now, it's being overused big time.

Why can't you just roll dodge out of the red circle that takes 2 second before it even starts pulsing?

And no both skills have a 6m radius so you're just wrong in saying that necro ability have a larger radius.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/mass-hysteria

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/remote-totem

Bullseyebudx

Iskiab wrote: »

Never been a fan of nerf requests, but there’s one ability that irks me so much I thought I’d mention it because no one else is talking about it.

The Necro ground fear is OP. Can the pulsing fear be scaled down?

Issues:
- with cyrodiil lag break free can take longer and I’ve broken free from it just to be cc’d again
- the fear can interrupt a dodge roll which is super annoying
- While the telegraph is pretty obvious and avoidable, it is not avoidable in certain situations like a keep.
- The ability lag free might be okay, but lag helps make it OP. There have been times I’ve tried to break free with full stam, didn’t work with lag, and had to wait out the full duration of the effect. Since it pulses every 2 seconds it can actually interrupt breaking free from itself

Since there are a million nerf requests for silly things I thought I should mention something that’s actually OP and annoying.

We tend to agree on many points revolving around the topic of CC's but I think we're all complaining about the same thing here which is CC's and how especially when there's lag and performance issues the abilities have volatile performance.

I personally don't use the totem unless I'm specifically trolling around keeps because you wont hit anything with it otherwise, and even then I'm honestly not that enamored with the ability.

I understand where you're coming from, because the stat loss from having to break free and then roll dodging or vice-versa is ridiculous; granted I think the ability is designed to force you to either dodge roll or break free but not both without penalty.

If you take the average cost of break free and roll dodge you do in fact get the rough cost of totem which is expensive.

The issue you seem to have with the ability specifically comes about with performance issues so maybe giving this ability and the rest of the CC's the benefit of the doubt until they're tested without the horrendous performance issues is best. Instead direct that anger at the actual issue; the less than deplorable performance quality the game currently offers.

ThePedge

Getting CC'd mid roll is happening to me almost every fight. It's called a *** dodge roll, I'm literally in the middle of dodging your ability, how has it landed?

Especially on Magicka builds, where rolling is less frequent but just has to be used sometimes. To roll, get CC'd anyway and have to break free is a *** load of stamina.

This Fear is one of the biggest culprits. As well as Leap.

Iskiab

ThePedge wrote: »

Getting CC'd mid roll is happening to me almost every fight. It's called a *** dodge roll, I'm literally in the middle of dodging your ability, how has it landed?

Especially on Magicka builds, where rolling is less frequent but just has to be used sometimes. To roll, get CC'd anyway and have to break free is a *** load of stamina.

This Fear is one of the biggest culprits. As well as Leap.

Leap I don't mind, it's just a cc that can hit people while dodge rolling. What makes the ground fear OP is it pulses every 2 seconds and doesn't respect cc immunity. With lag you can get feared multiple times by the same effect, that's not supposed to be able to happen.

Joy_Division

Iskiab wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Getting CC'd mid roll is happening to me almost every fight. It's called a *** dodge roll, I'm literally in the middle of dodging your ability, how has it landed?

Especially on Magicka builds, where rolling is less frequent but just has to be used sometimes. To roll, get CC'd anyway and have to break free is a *** load of stamina.

This Fear is one of the biggest culprits. As well as Leap.

Leap I don't mind, it's just a cc that can hit people while dodge rolling. What makes the ground fear OP is it pulses every 2 seconds and doesn't respect cc immunity. With lag you can get feared multiple times by the same effect, that's not supposed to be able to happen.

What do you mean it doesn;t respect CC immunity?

Freakin_Hytte

Iskiab wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Getting CC'd mid roll is happening to me almost every fight. It's called a *** dodge roll, I'm literally in the middle of dodging your ability, how has it landed?

Especially on Magicka builds, where rolling is less frequent but just has to be used sometimes. To roll, get CC'd anyway and have to break free is a *** load of stamina.

This Fear is one of the biggest culprits. As well as Leap.

Leap I don't mind, it's just a cc that can hit people while dodge rolling. What makes the ground fear OP is it pulses every 2 seconds and doesn't respect cc immunity. With lag you can get feared multiple times by the same effect, that's not supposed to be able to happen.

But the reason that happens is as you states because of the lag. Why nerf a skill when lag is the villain? It's like the snipe desync and you get hit with 3 snipes at once or when meteor knocks you down even though you blocked. It's not the skills fault that the bad performance people have are the issue.

NBrookus

Joy_Division wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Getting CC'd mid roll is happening to me almost every fight. It's called a *** dodge roll, I'm literally in the middle of dodging your ability, how has it landed?

Especially on Magicka builds, where rolling is less frequent but just has to be used sometimes. To roll, get CC'd anyway and have to break free is a *** load of stamina.

This Fear is one of the biggest culprits. As well as Leap.

Leap I don't mind, it's just a cc that can hit people while dodge rolling. What makes the ground fear OP is it pulses every 2 seconds and doesn't respect cc immunity. With lag you can get feared multiple times by the same effect, that's not supposed to be able to happen.

What do you mean it doesn;t respect CC immunity?

It's not that ability. CC immunity is fairly optional lately. Drink a immov pot? Get CC'd. Break free? Immediately get cc'd again.

Plus the servers are lagging badly enough it looks like you aren't standing inside the red circle anymore, but the server thinks you are... so get CC'd. Fear Totem just has more opportunities to be screwed up because of the pulse, but you'll see the same red circle issue with Time Stop.

Iskiab

Joy_Division wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Getting CC'd mid roll is happening to me almost every fight. It's called a *** dodge roll, I'm literally in the middle of dodging your ability, how has it landed?

Especially on Magicka builds, where rolling is less frequent but just has to be used sometimes. To roll, get CC'd anyway and have to break free is a *** load of stamina.

This Fear is one of the biggest culprits. As well as Leap.

Leap I don't mind, it's just a cc that can hit people while dodge rolling. What makes the ground fear OP is it pulses every 2 seconds and doesn't respect cc immunity. With lag you can get feared multiple times by the same effect, that's not supposed to be able to happen.

What do you mean it doesn;t respect CC immunity?

If you’re able to break free and try and move out of the area you can get feared again since it pulses every 2 seconds.

I’m not sure if it’s due to lag effecting cc immunity so it doesn’t apply after breaking free, or the fear working on people who should be cc immune, but it’s the same effect.

Theignson

Fear in general is messed up.

What happens to me is I get feared and my character just stands there unable to do anything. Break free, dodge roll etc nothing works; can't move for up to 4 seconds, as if all my keys are broken. . Then the ball group hits me with 3 ultis , vicious death and grave robber and I'm dead.

One of the most frustrating bugs in the game

The game is just broken now, all the old bugs are back, terrible

Waffennacht

Iskiab wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Getting CC'd mid roll is happening to me almost every fight. It's called a *** dodge roll, I'm literally in the middle of dodging your ability, how has it landed?

Especially on Magicka builds, where rolling is less frequent but just has to be used sometimes. To roll, get CC'd anyway and have to break free is a *** load of stamina.

This Fear is one of the biggest culprits. As well as Leap.

Leap I don't mind, it's just a cc that can hit people while dodge rolling. What makes the ground fear OP is it pulses every 2 seconds and doesn't respect cc immunity. With lag you can get feared multiple times by the same effect, that's not supposed to be able to happen.

What do you mean it doesn;t respect CC immunity?

If you’re able to break free and try and move out of the area you can get feared again since it pulses every 2 seconds.

I’m not sure if it’s due to lag effecting cc immunity so it doesn’t apply after breaking free, or the fear working on people who should be cc immune, but it’s the same effect.

If that's the case; that's an issue with the game and not the ability. There shouldn't be something by passing immunity. However this has been a problem experienced over a very long time.

I'd complain about performance - however every other game I've played on Xbox (multiplayer) is just as buggy if not worse. (Making me question the whole market)

Hexquisite

There are a couple EP Necros that also use Turn Evil with this.