The Green Pact

Araneae6537

The Green Pact, also known as the treaty of frond and leaf, prohibits harming the forest of Valenwood and prohibits eating anything made from plant life. From this description and what else I have read, this means that while Green Pact Bosmer utilize items made from wood from elsewhere, they would not consume plant material regardless of source. Correct? Also, where do mushrooms fall? The are not green, having no chlorophyll, and lack fronds and leaves — indeed, irl fungi are more closely related to animals than plants. However, if one divides living things into plants and animals, many would group fungi with the former, and certainly what was meant by those who formed and now follow the Pact is what is important here.

I am asking from curiosity, working on decorating some Green Pact compliant homes, and if mushrooms are exempt, I might see what all different potions I can make without using plants (in the specific sense).

The Green Pact protects:

A ) All plants (biologically— think friends and leaves) of the Valenwood.
B ) All mushrooms of the Valenwood.
C) Imported plants (eg., a potted plant from Morrowind grown in someone’s home in Valenwood).

Araneae6537

A & C (all plants regardless of origin; mushrooms exempt)

Please feel free to post thoughts, opinions, references etc. instead of or in addition to the poll! I couldn’t find anything official regarding mushrooms and imported plants but many know much more of the lore than I do!

redgreensunset

No opinion but fungi aren't plants (they're ot animal either, scientists hate them becuase they fit nowhere) so they would never be protected by the Green Pact.

mateosalvaje

A & C (all plants regardless of origin; mushrooms exempt)

I'm no expert, but as I understand it all plants grown in Valenwood are protected under the Green pact. So a fallen Valenwood log wouldn't be usable, but imported wood could be burnt or fashioned into a chair for example. I'm pretty sure all fungi s fair game, but I have no sources to cite.

Great question! 👍

mateosalvaje

A & C (all plants regardless of origin; mushrooms exempt)

I should have selected the first one sorry 🙄

Araneae6537

A & C (all plants regardless of origin; mushrooms exempt)

redgreensunset wrote: »

No opinion but fungi aren't plants (they're ot animal either, scientists hate them becuase they fit nowhere) so they would never be protected by the Green Pact.

Very true that fungi aren’t plants but are their own separate kingdom. (I don’t know about scientists hating them however, the only thing I hated was having to memorize their several varieties of life-cycle/development/sex for an exam, lol! I thought protists and algae were more of a conundrum, but phylogeny is well outside my area of expertise.) But the issue I think is whether or not Y’ffre considers them “plants,” regardless of whether or not that is biologically correct, even in the world of Nirn. (In common discourse, I am frequently baffled by people who don’t consider insects to be “animals” or even equate “animal” with vertebrate or mammal. Language is a funny thing...)

Araneae6537

A & C (all plants regardless of origin; mushrooms exempt)

mateosalvaje wrote: »

I should have selected the first one sorry 🙄

It would be nice if there were an option to change one’s votes in polls both for mistakes and if one changes their mind! Sorry if the poll is a bit confusing besides — I was trying to ask two things at once but succinctly. Importing wood is allowed, but what about a greenhouse (set up on a rock or so where there weren’t any plants growing already) with plants brought in from Summerset? Would it be forbidden to introduce any plants into the Valenwood even if confined to culture? Or would those plants now fall under Green Pact protection? Or would that be allowed? Perhaps this is something that has not come up in the lore, but it seems it would inevitably be a potential issue under the Dominion.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

@Araneae6537 This actually came up during one of the Loremaster Answers-Your-Questions articles:

"As many outsiders do, I find the Green Pact a bit puzzling. Two of the tenets appear to be 'eat no plants' and 'eat only meat.' These are not really the same thing. Do strict adherents to the Green Pact not consume dairy products, honey, mushrooms, or insects?" – Ravenna Brightwing

The Green Lady says, "Though the Green Pact appears simple on the surface, its doctrinal details can be baffling to outsiders, and indeed, even the wisest of our Spinners disagree on some of its aspects. The first tenet you mention would be better stated as "Harm no living plants," and this we strive not to do, even when we sing the house-songs to the trees so they will form lodgings for us. But does it harm a living plant to eat its fallen fruit? Indeed not—in fact, in this way the plant's seeds are spread. The second tenet you mention is better known as the Meat Mandate, but how strictly it is followed varies from tribe to tribe and, indeed, from individual to individual. However, dairy products, honey, mushrooms, and insects are eaten with zest by all but the most ultra-zealous of Pact Bosmer."

VaranisArano

The thing I always struggled with the Green Pact and Meat Mandate is that, without mods, it's nigh impossible to actually play as a strict follower in the singleplayer TES games.

Araneae6537

A & C (all plants regardless of origin; mushrooms exempt)

Thank you so much, @WhiteCoatSyndrome — that is exactly what I wanted to know!

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Thank you so much, @WhiteCoatSyndrome — that is exactly what I wanted to know!

Glad I could help!

Cundu_Ertur

It depends on the Bosmer you ask...

My Bosmer play in the following way:

No Vampirism or Lycanthropy.

Harm no plant in Valenwood. This means in Greenshade, Grahtwood, Malabal Tor, and the parts of the March west of the river I take no plant-based alchemical or clothmaking plant products. Silk, fungi, and animal based products are ok. Fallen wood is ok so long as there is no living plant on it (this means no oak or yew). I would prefer to not harm Spriggans, Lurchers, and Stranglers in the area, but they usually don't allow that as an option. Which in my mind is them violating the Pact.

The meat mandate always seemed to be more of a 'kill only when you need to, so eat whatever you kill' kind of responsible hunting code. I don't worry much about it.

However, this is kind of an easygoing view of the pact. There are more hardcore interpretations that you can find in the game. So it really depends.

Ajaxandriel

It depends on the Bosmer you ask...

@WhiteCoatSyndrome already found the right tips so i'm just reposting this:

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

While replying to the insightful topic about cultural foods and drinks of Tamriel ( https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435193/list-of-confirmed-food-and-drinks-for-different-races-of-tamriel ), I remembered something that bothered me for years since I roleplay a woodelf spinner girl (first as a sorc then as a warden) with a self-behavior of fundamentalism into the Green Pact. You know, thou shalt not eat plant matter, and so on!

Many quests in Valenwood fits to this lore and they suggest that most of (not-acculturated) bosmer do follow the Green Pact rules in daily life. Sometimes it even becomes serious business when the forest is angry and call for a head to roll... (remember this insane case between the khajiit supplier, the alchemist husband and the dying damsel). Apostates were sentenced to the Ooze, some of them were living as outsiders (in caves with their gardens).

So of course we are shown Bosmer NPCs who do eat plants in game lore, but they are depicted as "no true bosmer", merely ...exceptions, like those apostates in Valenwood, the "sinners by constraint", the acculturated wood elves (usually living in altmer/breton/imperial towns).

I'm not even speaking of the bosmer Player-Characters x) The rate of those who try and follow the lore rules may be low, and those who actually follow the hardcore way, even lower.

One can easily find moot points and forbearance in the Green Pact rules.

All those who follow the Pact just in Valenwood but eat/harm vegetables once elsewhere (no pun intended) in Tamriel. After all, the Green Pact only matters inside Valenwood.

And harvesting dead plant matter in Valenwood may or may not be a "sin" according to the Green Pact. So lore-wise, a bosmer woodworker is not breaking the law since all the wood in game mechanics is dead wood (logs on the soil). One could also argue that the wood that is used by your bosmer woodworking crafter is kept alive (there are shield item names that imply this, living wood) just like bosmer houses.

Now, let's keep all those exceptions aside, and look at the core / mainstream cases.

Even then, the Green Pacts is not actually followed.

Just go in any Wood Elf house or campsite in Grahtwood, Greenshade or Malabal Tor, even hostile ones.
Look at the content of the supply jars and sacks. (You can rob it also, remember the Rite of Theft.) Then check by yourself:



Okay then, maybe these wood elves are sinners, or hypocrites who bought this to apostates or strangers, or maybe the supplies are imported and these plants were harmed "abroad".

_

Then go and visit the most hardcore followers of the Bosmer culture, who rejected the Aldmeri Dominion laws: City of Ash (that was the Whisper Grove before its collapse).
I screenshot this on my altmer:



CARROTS! GREENDAM CARROTS!!

And there was quite some radish and other plants too.

I could admit the gamedesign limitation, it may be hard to design the provisioning nodes - like jars ands sacks - in these zones to pop up as only-meat or only-insect parts...
Well ...City of Ash is instanced. It should be doable.

But above all - why putting "out-of-sack" vegetables on the floor? They are clearly put here on purpose. What was the developer who put them here thinking about?

Now roleplay-wise, Angelith is feeling like a disillusioned preacher among a people who doesn't follow their own culture.
Even the Whisper Grove was all fake, a daedric plot and its fools.
Y'ffre and The Green are not even able to enforce their rules.

Definitely there is no more true bosmer...

Person A: "No Bosmer puts plants on his rotmeth."
Person B: "But my uncle Anguth is a Bosmer and he puts plants on his rotmeth."
Person A: "But no true Bosmer puts plants on his rotmeth."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

What I'm wondering here is ---

Is this a case of gamedesign mistake? that could be fixed?
or is this intended design to show the hypocrisy of Wood Elf culture? or the vanity of purism?
(Maybe both? X) )

@ZOS_Lawrence_Schick ?

Cundu_Ertur

It depends on the Bosmer you ask...

@Ajaxandriel

Followed your link, and liked your Bouldertree. I just wish there was a way to get a proper Bosmer cooking fire.

Ajaxandriel

It depends on the Bosmer you ask...

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

@Ajaxandriel

Followed your link, and liked your Bouldertree. I just wish there was a way to get a proper Bosmer cooking fire.

Mine is an imitation of fireplaces in houses of greenshade and grathwood... Seemed good enough

TigressCreed

This felt like a multiple choice trick question on my university exams . Made my head hurt so I didn’t answer lol

ghastley

It reminds me of Asimov's laws of Robotics. You always need exceptions.

Is it harming a tree not to remove the parasitic vines growing on it? Does pruning stimulate healthier growth? If in doubt, do no harm, but ...