Update 24 - The state of combat

ShadowKyuubi

Let me just start by saying that this is strictly my opinion as an endgame PvE'r and that I know some of what I say will not be of popular opinion, so don't flame me. I also will not claim to the best dps in the world, but I am fairly good at all classes and at least act like I know what I am talking about

First, I want to address what I thought about Update 23. Honestly, I think it was hands down one of the best combat patches that we have had to date. I know this isn't a popular opinion because it radically changed the meta to DoTs. However, the change didn't mean that old builds suddenly became bad, they just were not as good as the meta DoT rotations. These rotations were probably the most dynamic, engaging and fun rotations I've ever had the pleasure of playing. I actually enjoyed these rotations, I wanted to fight enemies just so I could keep improving. These rotations raised the skill cap that players could reach, thereby raising the damage of the players. This was the patch I felt like I could bring any class I wanted into a trial and still pull reasonable damage. Was it "BiS" damage, no, but I was still parsing 80K+ (trial atro) on every class I played as (which is basically every class but magcro). The Update 23 patch inspired me to go for off-meta builds because it is one of the first times that I felt that I wouldn't be punished too much. Now this being said, it wasn't perfect. I understand the problem that this patch brought to PvP, with over-tuned DoTs and people complaining that the "Damage was too high." I won't go into full detail, but I think that there were better ways to handle this and ZoS went about it the wrong way with a straight damage nerf. As for the damage being too high, we are talking about maybe a couple hundred people in the world being able to get the damage numbers people complained about, it may be more, but it isn't like your everyday casual was getting 90k+.

Now, to my thoughts about Update 24. I am going to talk about my experiences with the classes I've been playing and what I think about them (it has become a limited number since I haven't been playing all my characters lately).

Stamina Sorceror - Honestly, I made this class after Summerset to prove to my guild members that Two-Handed weapons were viable. Both them and I never once thought that Two-Handers would actually become a leading dps spot and I am actually sad that it came true. As for what happened in Update 24, Bound Armaments. This single ability saved this class and I hate it. Don't get me wrong, it does good damage, it looks nice and it makes the stamsorc wanting identity somewhat happy. To me, it feels like a ripped off of version of Assassin's Scourge. Nightblades have always been the class that had the fastest and hardest rotations because of the Light Attack/Assissin's Scourge synergy and I hate to see it go to another class like this. Now, this is strictly a personal opinion and I will acknowledge the good that this ability has done to a once struggling class. The Clannfear scalling with stamina was a nice touch, but do you know why people slot it? Because there is literally no other ability worth casting. It isn't because the pet does amazing damage or anything, no it so that you don't have to press another ability and take away from you spammable, Wrecking Blow. The rotations for this class have become so static and boring, that I can't really stand playing this class much anymore becuase it makes me fall asleep. Honestly, I think I could fall asleep and still be able light attack weave with Wrecking Blow, cause that is basically all you need and all that is good anymore.

Stamina Necromancer - My only real complaint with that class is that the abilities don't work half the time still. Blastbones still sits there and "Ponders its life choices" (it was a good joke at the time Gina, but that patch didn't actually fix the problem) and siphon doesn't always recognize the bodies. The rotation is "Meh", at best. Mainly because you sit there an wonder if your blast bones is actually going to off. Even if it does, the rotation is still very static, a shadow of the former dynamic rotation it once was. I am torn between the Colossus change, I like that it encourages people not to have eight stamina necromances for trials, but I don't think it fixed the core of the problem.

Stamina Wardens - I have two builds, DW/Bow and Bow/Bow. Starting with the DW/Bow, it got trapped into the same corner as Stamina Sorceror did. There is a very minimal amount of skills actaully worth casting and that don't take away from your damage too much. I think Subterranean Assault keeps the rotation itself somewhat interesting, but the rotation now hinges around that ability and making sure you're casting it enough without interrupting it. In terms of damage, this build suffers the same nerf as all the other classes and probably came out ahead when compared to the other classes, mainly because a lot of the damage was from Subterranean Assault. The Bow/Bow build came out better this patch. The additional effects of Cutting Dive, as well as the addition of Growing Swarm helped keep this class alive. I think this is the only build I have that actually has a more fun and engaging rotation, than what it had in Update 23.

Magicka Dragonknights - I loved this class in Update 23. I didn't play a meta rotation, I made my own rotation for it that worked. The only thing that really happened in Update 24 is that I can't sustain anything anymore. I can't get through 6 mil dummies without having to heavy attack a couple times. The reason for this was the magicka regeneration loss from the Degeneration (maybe I have the morph wrong, but one of the former entropy morphs) and the general increase to DoT costs. It is a shame to see a class and rotation I built become unsustainable. Overall the damage Magicka Dragonknights puts out is fine and the rotation is still somewhat enjoyable, but it is so hard to freaking sustain anymore that I just can't convince myself to play it.

Magicka Sorceror - This class suffers from the same main problems as Magicka Dragonknights. It has become hard to sustain, but most importantly, one of the staple abilities that all Magicka Sorcerors used to use is now useless, Liquid Lightning. I don't think there has ever been a patch that I didn't have liquid lightning on my Magicka Sorceror. However, now it costs way too much and just doesn't do enough damage. You cannot sustain a rotation with liquid lightning one your bar at all. Which is a shame, because it gets rid of one of the most common synergy abilities that people were used to seeing all the time in trials. This class also fell into the "boring" static rotation problem that a lot of other classes did too. Now you only cast Elemental Wall on your backbar and then go back to spamming Elemental Weapon and waiting for Crystal Fragments to proc. If you are a pet sorc, just add the pet cast to the backbar.

I would add more, but it is kind of long already and I have work. I might come back and edit the last three classes I can comfortably talk about: Magplars, Magblades, and Stamblades.

I just wanted to give my opinons of what I thought happened to the classes I play this last patch. To summarize, a lot of classes fell into the boring static rotations again and there doesn't feel like there are enough abilites that I can justify casting when compared to spammables or for sustain issues. Most magicka characters can't sustain rotations during parses, ect, ect... Only one class came out better, in terms of overall feel of the class and not damage. If I had to summarize what combat has become compared to last patch, it would be: Boring. It feels like I am just sitting there like a robot, hitting the same four or five abilities in the same order.

Shantu

l thought U23 was actually fun also. U24 fell into the "crap absolutely nobody wants" category. I mean, who the hell wants endlessly practice finger gymnastics just to fight dumb ass sustain issues?

Personally, I've just stopped chasing these ever-changing rotation metas dictated by developers who really don't seem to have a clue as to what makes combat dynamic and interesting. Yeah, I'll never have my own "look-at-how-good-my-dps-is" YouTube channel, but I prefer just playing in a way that feels fun.

And0ssus

What do u mean with dynamic Rotation?
Normally a dynamic Rotation is Something where you cast your abilitys dynamic ... that means u are Casting your abilitys not in a particular order.
But Last Patch, especially with Stamina Flurry rotations, u had the Most static Rotation ever. Most ST Dots and some of the aoes had 10 sec Uptimes. Only a few had more or less (barbed Trap for example).
Can't Talk to much about Magickas Last Patch, because i didn't Play them.
This Patch u got rid of the Most Dots, so u spam more.
But does it mean your rotations arent that dynmaic because you're Casting less different skills?

Don't get me wrong. I think they gone to far with nerving the dots/AoE this Patch, but personally i think, rotations weren't really interesting last Patch and aren't really interesting this Patch.

ZOS_Nith

Thank you for taking the time to put together some of your own insights and experiences with different class builds! You articulated some good points here.

muh

Shantu wrote: »

l thought U23 was actually fun also. U24 fell into the "crap absolutely nobody wants" category.

Hello, I'm nobody!

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I actually like the U24 changes for the most part. However I think they went overboard with some of the sustain changes, but with a somewhat decently organized trial group you usually don't run into sustain issues.

Personally I don't think ESO has many dynamic elements in its combat design whatsoever. Cycling through a number of DoTs isn't dynamic to me and doesn't require more skill than periods of spammables with some DoTs and utility abilities (e.g. sustain tools like leeching/siphoning strikes, netch, etc) which you want to keep up.

A lot of the signature class abilities boil down to "cast ClassAbility every X abilities". Which I don't consider dynamic either, couple examples:
Power of the Light, every 7th cast
Grim Focus, every 5th cast
Bound Armaments, every 4th cast
Blastbones/Shalks, every 3rd cast

Grim Focus and Bound Armaments require proper light attack weaving of course.

To me, dynamic in context of rotations is something you can't predict and have to react to and/or is strong enough that you want to break up the static (or monotonous) parts of your rotation. Off the top of my head there are only two abilities that fit that definition.

Crystal Fragments, a proc chance on every mag ability. You'd want to consume it as early as possible so it can proc again.
The other ability is Cutting Dive, which adds a pretty significant stacking DoT when your enemy is off-balance.
Off-balance is somewhat predictable since in a trial group you usually proc it off cooldown. But the stacking bleed is strong enough that it takes priority over your regular shalks rotation.

It just feels bad in some situations like Z'maja when she teleports right as off-balance procs and the entire off-balance period is wasted. The only way around that would be to decouple it from off-balance and actually make a class mechanic out of it.

So humour me for a second. Let's add a stacking mechanic on another Warden ability. For example when Subterranean Assault hits something it adds one stack to a buff. When you reach 5 stacks on that buff, it turns into another buff with a 7 second duration which is the window in which Cutting Dive causes the stacking bleed. While that buff is active you can't gain additional stacks with Subterranean Assault.

As mentioned above, Subterranean Assault can be cast as every third ability, with 5 stacks required that's a minimum of 15 seconds between each bleed window. Which matches exactly the off-balance availability right now, 22 second cooldown of which it is active 7 seconds.

So why not extend this concept a little bit. Right now it would be a slight nerf since unlike off-balance you can't really have 5 stacks right at the start of a fight or on a target swap. So why not add a higher ultimate cost effect to Guardian's Savagery. When cast with 125 Ultimate it will immediately grant 5 stacks of Subterranean Assault and proc the 7 second bleed window.

Now we have a stamina Warden class mechanic that involves multiple class abilities and adds, in my opinion, much needed complexity to the combat system in general. You could think of the stacking buff from Subterranean Assault as a secondary class resource.

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Uhm... I think I went a little bit off topic, but the Cutting Dive change actually got me excited that we might see more abilities with secondary mechanics in the future.

Personally I think the ability design is really shallow and uninspired so far. The only thing the combat system has going for it is light attack weaving and active damage mitigation with blocks and dodges.

I'm also salty that ZOS brought up Grim Focus as an example for a "unique feel for an ability", just to add it to Bound Armaments.

The triggering method itself is the other major factor of play patterns since it defines the inputs and conditions you must satisfy to trigger the effect behavior. Most abilities include conditions related to range, targeting, resource type, and resource cost. Some abilities, such as the Nightblade’s Grim Focus and the Sorcerer’s Crystal Fragments, include additional custom requirements. Custom requirements can be very effective for creating a unique feel for an ability, [...]

- Rob Garrett, Developer Deep Dive - Let's talk about class identity in ESO

jcm2606

ZOS_Nith wrote: »

Thank you for taking the time to put together some of your own insights and experiences with different class builds! You articulated some good points here.

Just wanna take the time to say thanks for actually, genuinely responding to a thread. Wish there were more ZoS staff that did this.

ShadowKyuubi

And0ssus wrote: »

What do u mean with dynamic Rotation?
Normally a dynamic Rotation is Something where you cast your abilitys dynamic ... that means u are Casting your abilitys not in a particular order.
But Last Patch, especially with Stamina Flurry rotations, u had the Most static Rotation ever. Most ST Dots and some of the aoes had 10 sec Uptimes. Only a few had more or less (barbed Trap for example).
Can't Talk to much about Magickas Last Patch, because i didn't Play them.
This Patch u got rid of the Most Dots, so u spam more.
But does it mean your rotations arent that dynmaic because you're Casting less different skills?

Don't get me wrong. I think they gone to far with nerving the dots/AoE this Patch, but personally i think, rotations weren't really interesting last Patch and aren't really interesting this Patch.

A lot of the meta stamina rotations were static to a certain point, but I made a lot of my own rotations. I personally didn't really care for certain abilities and hardly slotted them. So the rotations I made for stamina were a bit more dynamic having to switch between bars quickly to reset a buff or DoT, reacting with vigor, ect, ect… This is all from my own personal experience, maybe if I had wanted to play the meta more, I would have suffered the same static rotation problems. But as I said before, I think that Update 23 was the first time I felt I wouldn't suffer too much if I wasn't playing the meta.

ShadowKyuubi

ZOS_Nith wrote: »

Thank you for taking the time to put together some of your own insights and experiences with different class builds! You articulated some good points here.

I appreciate you taking the time to read this and respond. Thank you.

mague

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

If I had to summarize what combat has become compared to last patch, it would be: Boring. It feels like I am just sitting there like a robot, hitting the same four or five abilities in the same order.

But only if you cant leave the dogma of maximisation behind. For each 1% you give up you get 2% fun. If you play pro or semi-pro you cant ask for fun. It will always be meta. No matter how you turn it. After the N th rotation it turns dull.

I never had so much fun with the Stamden i main. With the current dive and swarm i have my own class ranged and in synergy with the passives.

ShadowKyuubi

mague wrote: »

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

If I had to summarize what combat has become compared to last patch, it would be: Boring. It feels like I am just sitting there like a robot, hitting the same four or five abilities in the same order.

But only if you cant leave the dogma of maximisation behind. For each 1% you give up you get 2% fun. If you play pro or semi-pro you cant ask for fun. It will always be meta. No matter how you turn it. After the N th rotation it turns dull.

I never had so much fun with the Stamden i main. With the current dive and swarm i have my own class ranged and in synergy with the passives.

And you're right, you can start having more fun if you start moving away from the meta. But I feel like the consequences of doing so have become more severe than they ever have been. I still have fun in dungeons and stuff with my own rotations and some of the meta rotations, but when you are running portal group for vSS, you need to pull a certain amount of DPS otherwise you wipe the group. Unfortunately a lot of the off-meta builds are not able to do this in this current patch, so I have to bring specific characters with specific skills, aka meta builds. As I said before, I don't claim to be the best DPS in the world and this is all based on my own personal experiences.

Hotdog_23

Very interesting read, I echo many of your same thoughts and feeling. I find myself playing less because since update 24 vs. update 23. Sustain is terrible on MagDK and Magsorc. The only thing my MagDK does is writs, sustain is terrible. Magsorc is bad but doesn’t seems as bad since I dropped liquid lightning. While the buff to Stamsorc is nice with bound armaments but if feels to much like he nightblades skill. Both nerco’s are bad to me because of the inconsistent blastbones and tethers. They’re ultimate’s is what saves them.

T3hasiangod

mague wrote: »

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

If I had to summarize what combat has become compared to last patch, it would be: Boring. It feels like I am just sitting there like a robot, hitting the same four or five abilities in the same order.

But only if you cant leave the dogma of maximisation behind. For each 1% you give up you get 2% fun. If you play pro or semi-pro you cant ask for fun. It will always be meta. No matter how you turn it. After the N th rotation it turns dull.

I never had so much fun with the Stamden i main. With the current dive and swarm i have my own class ranged and in synergy with the passives.

Why do people assume using the meta means we aren't having fun? A ton of end-game players have fun and use the meta. These are not mutually exclusive.

In any case, sustain has gone down, yes. But it's still relatively easy to sustain in organized groups. I'm running a magDK with bistat food and no Absorb Magicka enchant. I'm still capable of sustaining a full light attack rotation in most fights in my groups.

Noldornir

T3hasiangod wrote: »

In any case, sustain has gone down, yes. But it's still relatively easy to sustain in organized groups. I'm running a magDK with bistat food and no Absorb Magicka enchant. I'm still capable of sustaining a full light attack rotation in most fights in my groups.

Agreed.

On the most expensive class (MDK/Altmer) i got i still has almost none sustain issue in PvE.

While i do not always follow the meta this Alt is specced for max DPS with nothing in regen.

BTW I firmly believe rotations are now more fun to play than during Scalebreaker;

Scalebreaker= cast all your dots in sequence.

Rotation= button 1 - 2 - 3 - 4- 5 SWAP button 1-2-3-4-5 was a possible rotation in too many cases (just by reassigning the button to ability)

Dragonhold/Pre scalebreker= find the best balance between DotS/ Spammables

Can lead to more (suitable) combinations in terms of rotation imho hence i find it funnier.