2H - Is ninrhoned better than infused?

Mariusghost84

I see a lot of builds run infused on 2h weps along with wep dmg enchant. Wouldnt ninrhoned (200dmg) + 348 Wep enchant be better than Infused, which gives 448 wep dmg? Am i missing something vital here?

Somewhere

Could be that you're missing that infused cuts the cooldown on enchantments by half. A nirnhoned weapon can only keep that additional 348 weapon damage up 50% of the time. So while about 50% of the time the nirnhoned does have an additional 100 weapon damage that the infused doesn't have... the other 50% of the time it has 248 more, and since it procs on cooldown, you can guarantee it's up when you are dealing damage with a light attack. With nirnhoned, that's a bit harder to control for some people I am sure.

Mariusghost84

Somewhere wrote: »

Could be that you're missing that infused cuts the cooldown on enchantments by half. A nirnhoned weapon can only keep that additional 348 weapon damage up 50% of the time. So while about 50% of the time the nirnhoned does have an additional 100 weapon damage that the infused doesn't have... the other 50% of the time it has 248 more, and since it procs on cooldown, you can guarantee it's up when you are dealing damage with a light attack. With nirnhoned, that's a bit harder to control for some people I am sure.

I totally forgot about that. Thanks for clearing it up!

Trikie_Dik

Ohhhh what a can of worms - 'What is BiS for XYZ'

Think alot of it comes down to personal play style, content, and other gear/skill choices when your looking at 'what is best' for your gear.

In this case, its about on par between PVE to PVP since your talking about damage done increase and not armor mitigation or something - though i admit im not a big PVP guy so i may be wrong there too haha. Some of the other aspects you also need to look at are things lile how often does the enchant proc with infused vs nirn (20% - 25% more i believe but dont quote me as im not in-game now to check)? Another thing to think about is alot of stam are using poison ontop of the DW/Bow/2h weapons so in that case your enchant is irreverent - but again i only play ONE stam character (stam-sorc) and use DW Sharp Dagger / Nirn Axe + poisons so the enchant really means nothing unless i run out of poison and dont notice it so i am by no means a stam/2h weapon expert and it may favor enchants over poison like my bow/dw build.

Other less obvious things are the convenience factor when you are dealing with limited items that are hard for you to farm or afford, so making small changes for specific content you can adjust quickly & cheaply by throwing a new enchant on which is further buffed with the infused trait as where your nirn is always the same static buff that cant be changed without a transmute of the weapon. (Same reason why i really like the Divines armor trait... rather then re-trait everything to get a diff effect for some specific and/or temporary reason, you change your mundas stone and now all your gear buff essentially changes with that mundas change... yes its the same actual item buff, but the end effect is amplified by all your armor without transmuting any of it)

Long and the short, whats best for you may not be best for the next guy. If your just looking for raw DPS numbers on the dummy, alot of guys who hit very very consistent parses test these differences over and over, which removes the natural delta most recreational players have in their parses so i typically let them do the base testing and then i just follow if i get the desired results from it. For instance, if i have a 5k+/- jump from parse to parse due to my non-perferct rotation, when i change gear how do i know it was not just frewer mistakes on one gear set vs more mistakes with the other without detailed log analysis - hence why parse consistency is key when trying to compare various gear options with that method.

You could always just get a set where you can craft the weapon and try both - or try on the PTS - where it wont cost transmutes or an arm + leg to buy two identical swords to test out. After a bank of tests on each setup, take your average and see whats better - but again thats for a parse number and real PVP or PVE content will have alot of other variables involved.

TL/DR - Just depends on the content, but if your just saying parses usually the 'meta' is a better performer otherwise the bulk of the guys min/maxing for build popularity and 'meta' builds would mostly be using the other trait. With all the variables - you may just have to test it out to find what works good for you.... sure someone who has done the math and worked out all the numbers could explain it better then my casual outlook - but hope this helps!

Trikie_Dik

Trikie_Dik wrote: »

... sure someone who has done the math and worked out all the numbers could explain it better then my casual outlook ...

hahah, looks like Somewhere beat me to the exact point when i was typing up that novel....

Somewhere wrote: »

... A nirnhoned weapon can only keep that additional 348 weapon damage up 50% of the time. So while about 50% of the time the nirnhoned does have an additional 100 weapon damage ...

Glad you found what you were looking for!

Mariusghost84

Trikie_Dik wrote: »

Ohhhh what a can of worms - 'What is BiS for XYZ'

Think alot of it comes down to personal play style, content, and other gear/skill choices when your looking at 'what is best' for your gear.

In this case, its about on par between PVE to PVP since your talking about damage done increase and not armor mitigation or something - though i admit im not a big PVP guy so i may be wrong there too haha. Some of the other aspects you also need to look at are things lile how often does the enchant proc with infused vs nirn (20% - 25% more i believe but dont quote me as im not in-game now to check)? Another thing to think about is alot of stam are using poison ontop of the DW/Bow/2h weapons so in that case your enchant is irreverent - but again i only play ONE stam character (stam-sorc) and use DW Sharp Dagger / Nirn Axe + poisons so the enchant really means nothing unless i run out of poison and dont notice it so i am by no means a stam/2h weapon expert and it may favor enchants over poison like my bow/dw build.

Other less obvious things are the convenience factor when you are dealing with limited items that are hard for you to farm or afford, so making small changes for specific content you can adjust quickly & cheaply by throwing a new enchant on which is further buffed with the infused trait as where your nirn is always the same static buff that cant be changed without a transmute of the weapon. (Same reason why i really like the Divines armor trait... rather then re-trait everything to get a diff effect for some specific and/or temporary reason, you change your mundas stone and now all your gear buff essentially changes with that mundas change... yes its the same actual item buff, but the end effect is amplified by all your armor without transmuting any of it)

Long and the short, whats best for you may not be best for the next guy. If your just looking for raw DPS numbers on the dummy, alot of guys who hit very very consistent parses test these differences over and over, which removes the natural delta most recreational players have in their parses so i typically let them do the base testing and then i just follow if i get the desired results from it. For instance, if i have a 5k+/- jump from parse to parse due to my non-perferct rotation, when i change gear how do i know it was not just frewer mistakes on one gear set vs more mistakes with the other without detailed log analysis - hence why parse consistency is key when trying to compare various gear options with that method.

You could always just get a set where you can craft the weapon and try both - or try on the PTS - where it wont cost transmutes or an arm + leg to buy two identical swords to test out. After a bank of tests on each setup, take your average and see whats better - but again thats for a parse number and real PVP or PVE content will have alot of other variables involved.

TL/DR - Just depends on the content, but if your just saying parses usually the 'meta' is a better performer otherwise the bulk of the guys min/maxing for build popularity and 'meta' builds would mostly be using the other trait. With all the variables - you may just have to test it out to find what works good for you.... sure someone who has done the math and worked out all the numbers could explain it better then my casual outlook - but hope this helps!

Amazing insight. Thanks for taking time to write this down! I appreciate it.

Soundinfinite

OK, so it depends on if you are talking PVE or PVP and front bar vs back bar.

1) In PVE, Infused+Weapon Enchant is back bared on a 2-handed weapon when a DOT (Damage over Time) weapon ability is in use. This is because the bonus damage to the glyph still holds while on your front bar and will proc while on your front bar off the DOT Weapon Skill without having to switch back. Thus it results in higher uptime and overall dps.

2) If you are front baring your Weapon Damage glyph because you do not have a DOT Weapon Ability or do not have a 2-handed weapon on your back bar, then Nirnhoned+Weapon Damage glyph IS stronger.

3) If you are in PVP where you do not play the back/front bar rotation game, then Nirnhoned+Weapon Damage Glyph is better.

4)The longer a fight lasts the stronger the Nirnhoned+Weapon Enchant glyph combo becomes due to the constant +200 weapon/spell damage Nirnhoned provides.

The Maths:

Gold 2-Handed Weapon in Nirnhoned = 1535 weapon/spell damage base with 50% Glyph uptime.
Gold 2-Handed Weapon in Infused =1335 weapon/spell damage base with 65%/75% Glyph uptime.

Note: Technically Infused is supposed to cut the glyph time down to 50% which is 2.5 seconds which would give a 75% uptime. However, I do believe the game rounds UP to 3 seconds resulting in a 65% uptime. I have never actually timed this and cannot find anywhere where someone has...so for the sake of argument I will do the maths with BOTH the 65% and 75% uptime.

Weapon Glyph =348 weapon/spell damage
Infused Weapon Glyph = 448 weapon/spell damage

Nirnhoned = 1535+(348 x .5)= Theoretical Net Damage of 1709 Weapon/Spell Damage

Infused at 65% uptime = 1335+(448 x .65) = Theoretical Net Damage of 1626 Weapon/Spell Damage

Infused at 75% uptime = 1335+(448 x .75) = Theoretical Net Damage of 1671 Weapon/Spell Damage

Thus in at least 60 seconds of game play or a 1 min battle Nirnhoned will average out to higher damage output over Infused no matter which uptime is correct. Again, the constant +200 weapon/spell damage is hard to overcome as its already almost half the value of the INFUSED Weapon Damage trait.

MAX BURST DAMAGE POTENTIAL

Nirnhoned = 1535+348 = 1883 Weapon/Spell Damage

Infused = 1335+448 = 1783 Weapon/Spell Damage

If you are trying to create burst damage combo rotations (Key in PVP play), Nirnhoned hands down beats the burst potential of Infused.

These maths hold up even when using Toraug's Pact. Nirnhoned+Weapon Damage Glyph still out-performs Infused+Weapon Damage.

Also if you are Stamina, you must also take in the Incredible scaling of Weapon Damage on a medium armor build. You can basically have 40% buff to weapon damage (50% if a Stam Dragon Knight) and how much power the +200 on Nirnhoned will constantly give your build with such scaling. This is not as drastic of a factor for Magicka which only has 20% (30% if on a Mag Templar) Spell Damage scaling.

So, it boils down to what content you are running, and the overall build and skills in use. Basically, Infused is only BIS with a Weapon Enchant on a build that is back baring the glyph and uses a skill that will keep it procing while still on front bar. In ALL other situations. It is not.

Mariusghost84

Soundinfinite wrote: »

OK, so it depends on if you are talking PVE or PVP and front bar vs back bar.

1) In PVE, Infused+Weapon Enchant is back bared on a 2-handed weapon when a DOT (Damage over Time) weapon ability is in use. This is because the bonus damage to the glyph still holds while on your front bar and will proc while on your front bar off the DOT Weapon Skill without having to switch back. Thus it results in higher uptime and overall dps.

2) If you are front baring your Weapon Damage glyph because you do not have a DOT Weapon Ability or do not have a 2-handed weapon on your back bar, then Nirnhoned+Weapon Damage glyph IS stronger.

3) If you are in PVP where you do not play the back/front bar rotation game, then Nirnhoned+Weapon Damage Glyph is better.

4)The longer a fight lasts the stronger the Nirnhoned+Weapon Enchant glyph combo becomes due to the constant +200 weapon/spell damage Nirnhoned provides.

The Maths:

Gold 2-Handed Weapon in Nirnhoned = 1535 weapon/spell damage base with 50% Glyph uptime.
Gold 2-Handed Weapon in Infused =1335 weapon/spell damage base with 65%/75% Glyph uptime.

Note: Technically Infused is supposed to cut the glyph time down to 50% which is 2.5 seconds which would give a 75% uptime. However, I do believe the game rounds UP to 3 seconds resulting in a 65% uptime. I have never actually timed this and cannot find anywhere where someone has...so for the sake of argument I will do the maths with BOTH the 65% and 75% uptime.

Weapon Glyph =348 weapon/spell damage
Infused Weapon Glyph = 448 weapon/spell damage

Nirnhoned = 1535+(348 x .5)= Theoretical Net Damage of 1709 Weapon/Spell Damage

Infused at 65% uptime = 1335+(448 x .65) = Theoretical Net Damage of 1626 Weapon/Spell Damage

Infused at 75% uptime = 1335+(448 x .75) = Theoretical Net Damage of 1671 Weapon/Spell Damage

Thus in at least 60 seconds of game play or a 1 min battle Nirnhoned will average out to higher damage output over Infused no matter which uptime is correct. Again, the constant +200 weapon/spell damage is hard to overcome as its already almost half the value of the INFUSED Weapon Damage trait.

MAX BURST DAMAGE POTENTIAL

Nirnhoned = 1535+348 = 1883 Weapon/Spell Damage

Infused = 1335+448 = 1783 Weapon/Spell Damage

If you are trying to create burst damage combo rotations (Key in PVP play), Nirnhoned hands down beats the burst potential of Infused.

These maths hold up even when using Toraug's Pact. Nirnhoned+Weapon Damage Glyph still out-performs Infused+Weapon Damage.

Also if you are Stamina, you must also take in the Incredible scaling of Weapon Damage on a medium armor build. You can basically have 40% buff to weapon damage (50% if a Stam Dragon Knight) and how much power the +200 on Nirnhoned will constantly give your build with such scaling. This is not as drastic of a factor for Magicka which only has 20% (30% if on a Mag Templar) Spell Damage scaling.

So, it boils down to what content you are running, and the overall build and skills in use. Basically, Infused is only BIS with a Weapon Enchant on a build that is back baring the glyph and uses a skill that will keep it procing while still on front bar. In ALL other situations. It is not.

What you just wrote was the EXACT thing i was after while creating this thread, the math behind it all. I was talking about PVP . Thanks a lot. Im still amazed how much time and effort some of you guys take into anwsering questions on the forums. Thanks a lot man!

Eso101rus

Soundinfinite wrote: »

OK, so it depends on if you are talking PVE or PVP and front bar vs back bar.

1) In PVE, Infused+Weapon Enchant is back bared on a 2-handed weapon when a DOT (Damage over Time) weapon ability is in use. This is because the bonus damage to the glyph still holds while on your front bar and will proc while on your front bar off the DOT Weapon Skill without having to switch back. Thus it results in higher uptime and overall dps.

2) If you are front baring your Weapon Damage glyph because you do not have a DOT Weapon Ability or do not have a 2-handed weapon on your back bar, then Nirnhoned+Weapon Damage glyph IS stronger.

3) If you are in PVP where you do not play the back/front bar rotation game, then Nirnhoned+Weapon Damage Glyph is better.

4)The longer a fight lasts the stronger the Nirnhoned+Weapon Enchant glyph combo becomes due to the constant +200 weapon/spell damage Nirnhoned provides.

The Maths:

Gold 2-Handed Weapon in Nirnhoned = 1535 weapon/spell damage base with 50% Glyph uptime.
Gold 2-Handed Weapon in Infused =1335 weapon/spell damage base with 65%/75% Glyph uptime.

Note: Technically Infused is supposed to cut the glyph time down to 50% which is 2.5 seconds which would give a 75% uptime. However, I do believe the game rounds UP to 3 seconds resulting in a 65% uptime. I have never actually timed this and cannot find anywhere where someone has...so for the sake of argument I will do the maths with BOTH the 65% and 75% uptime.

Weapon Glyph =348 weapon/spell damage
Infused Weapon Glyph = 448 weapon/spell damage

Nirnhoned = 1535+(348 x .5)= Theoretical Net Damage of 1709 Weapon/Spell Damage

Infused at 65% uptime = 1335+(448 x .65) = Theoretical Net Damage of 1626 Weapon/Spell Damage

Infused at 75% uptime = 1335+(448 x .75) = Theoretical Net Damage of 1671 Weapon/Spell Damage

Thus in at least 60 seconds of game play or a 1 min battle Nirnhoned will average out to higher damage output over Infused no matter which uptime is correct. Again, the constant +200 weapon/spell damage is hard to overcome as its already almost half the value of the INFUSED Weapon Damage trait.

MAX BURST DAMAGE POTENTIAL

Nirnhoned = 1535+348 = 1883 Weapon/Spell Damage

Infused = 1335+448 = 1783 Weapon/Spell Damage

If you are trying to create burst damage combo rotations (Key in PVP play), Nirnhoned hands down beats the burst potential of Infused.

These maths hold up even when using Toraug's Pact. Nirnhoned+Weapon Damage Glyph still out-performs Infused+Weapon Damage.

Also if you are Stamina, you must also take in the Incredible scaling of Weapon Damage on a medium armor build. You can basically have 40% buff to weapon damage (50% if a Stam Dragon Knight) and how much power the +200 on Nirnhoned will constantly give your build with such scaling. This is not as drastic of a factor for Magicka which only has 20% (30% if on a Mag Templar) Spell Damage scaling.

So, it boils down to what content you are running, and the overall build and skills in use. Basically, Infused is only BIS with a Weapon Enchant on a build that is back baring the glyph and uses a skill that will keep it procing while still on front bar. In ALL other situations. It is not.

Gets an awesome for inspired effort.👍🏼🙂

Rowjoh

@Soundinfinite gets an 'awesome' from me too

Thanks for the well written, clear and easy to follow explanation !

Asardes

If you spend more time on the 2H bar, Nirnhoned or Sharpened is better (also see if Sword/Maul/Axe fits better)
If you spend more time on the other bar, Infused is better since the WD increase from enchant carries over.