Cinder Storm vs. Cleansing ritual

Zer0_CooL

Cleansing Ritual:
Exalt in the sacred light of the Aedra, cleansing up to 2 harmful effects from yourself immediately and healing you and nearby allies for 292 every 2 seconds for 12 seconds. Allies in the area can activate the Purify synergy, cleansing all harmful effects from themselves and healing for 740 Health. This ability scales with your highest offensive stats. Note: Enemies standing in your Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus, or Rite of Passage areas of effect have their Movement Speed reduced by 30%.

Cinder Storm:
Summon a scorching cloud of ash at the target location, reducing enemy Movement Speed by 70% and healing you and your allies for 215 every 1 second.

So both skills have a movement speed reduction and a HoT.

In addition cleansing ritual has a synergy, aswell as a cleans. Yet cinder storm covers only a diameter of 5m and cleansing ritual has 12m.

I think it would only be fair if Cinder Storm has a biger are of effect.

Jabbs_Giggity

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

Cleansing Ritual:
Exalt in the sacred light of the Aedra, cleansing up to 2 harmful effects from yourself immediately and healing you and nearby allies for 292 every 2 seconds for 12 seconds. Allies in the area can activate the Purify synergy, cleansing all harmful effects from themselves and healing for 740 Health. This ability scales with your highest offensive stats. Note: Enemies standing in your Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus, or Rite of Passage areas of effect have their Movement Speed reduced by 30%.

Cinder Storm:
Summon a scorching cloud of ash at the target location, reducing enemy Movement Speed by 70% and healing you and your allies for 215 every 1 second.

So both skills have a movement speed reduction and a HoT.

In addition cleansing ritual has a synergy, aswell as a cleans. Yet cinder storm covers only a diameter of 5m and cleansing ritual has 12m.

I think it would only be fair if Cinder Storm has a biger are of effect.

I agree with this, to a degree. Cinder should definitely be a larger AOE. However, I just want to point out that Cleansing Ritual does not have a Snare tied to the skill directly, the Snare is part of the Templar Passive skill Sacred Ground - you halfway pointed this out already, but again just wanted to clarify. And Cinder has a 70% Snare compared to Sacred Ground's 30% Snare - big difference.

Also, for anyone planning to comment on the difference in healing between Cleansing and Cinder keep in mind that Cleansing is a HoT per 2 sec, while Cinder is per 1 sec. Also, DK's have access to Major Mending in their Class Skill toolkit which will greatly outperform on Cinder over Cleansing.

Zer0_CooL

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Also, for anyone planning to comment on the difference in healing between Cleansing and Cinder keep in mind that Cleansing is a HoT per 2 sec, while Cinder is per 1 sec. Also, DK's have access to Major Mending in their Class Skill toolkit which will greatly outperform on Cinder over Cleansing.

Thats rather interesting esp. as a support skill it would benefit. For solo on the other hand, the DK shield would be a wasted slot i think.


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nesakinter

Last thing PvP needs is more snares and bigger soft CC areas.

Ragnarock41

nesakinter wrote: »

Last thing PvP needs is more snares and bigger soft CC areas.

Have you ever tried using cinderstorm ever?

zvavi

Cinder storm is big enough to hit both groups at vSS on fire dragon so i would say it's size is just about right. But as a DK healer main i do feel like i lack group synergy, that can be procced by the whole group :looks at templars wardens and necromancers: and i think every class should have a unique synergy that can be pressed by everyone (ultimates don't count of course)

Rahar

Something needs to be done with Cinder. I don't know if making the AoE bigger is the right call (because already prevalent AoE snares/immobs in BGs are a nightmare without adding to it, hello bombard) but as it is right now, I've never seen this skill ran once in my entire time playing.

OG_Kaveman

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Also, for anyone planning to comment on the difference in healing between Cleansing and Cinder keep in mind that Cleansing is a HoT per 2 sec, while Cinder is per 1 sec. Also, DK's have access to Major Mending in their Class Skill toolkit which will greatly outperform on Cinder over Cleansing.

Thats rather interesting esp. as a support skill it would benefit. For solo on the other hand, the DK shield would be a wasted slot i think.

Yeah, 25% more healing for almost 7 seconds is totally a waste solo.

On topic, cinder storm needs to be at least 8 meters radius, the size of illustrious healing, in total area, that would bring it from ~78 square meters to ~201 square meters.

then you need to figure out how to make the ward from fragmented shield worth a dam to a healer, outside the major Mending, but not be over powered when used by a tank. Do those things, DK healers would be in a much better spot.

NBrookus

The snare seems to be entirely there to check the "DK doesn't have a snare" checkbox. A 5m diameter snare is pretty useless, though, particularly for that cost. The snare could be seriously downgraded or even entirely removed in order to buff this skill's size or other features in order to make it worth considering a bar slot.

idk

OP focuses only on the differences that suit their interest. Those differences that are ignored in the OP show they are very different skills.

I am not suggesting change is or is not warranted. Just that the comparison is biased.

Somewhere

While it's informative to look at two skills with similar functionality to determine if a skill is underbudgeted, we also have to recognize that not all class skills provide the same value, since we have to look at their kit as a whole.

Basically my point is: what does cinder storm need to improve a DK healer's toolkit. Larger radius? Synergy? A different animation to make it more clearly a player set HOT? I've seen them all suggested. I agree with all of those in varying degrees.

It's not so much this one skill that needs changing, it's all of the DK healing focused skills that all need a look at. As a whole. At the moment the class has just cinder storm, obsidian shard, obsidian shield, and Cauterize.

I think honestly an entire thread is due for it if one were to look at the efficacy of the DK healer.

Iskiab

idk wrote: »

OP focuses only on the differences that suit their interest. Those differences that are ignored in the OP show they are very different skills.

I am not suggesting change is or is not warranted. Just that the comparison is biased.

Not really. A lot of classes have a ground effect heal, it’s just only some get used, Warden and Templar, and the others don’t.

I think the reason other class’ ground effect abilities are so bad is they don’t want to homogenize the classes too much.

No doubt though, Cinder Storm sucks. It has a very niche trial healer use, and even then who uses DK healers?

zvavi

Iskiab wrote: »

No doubt though, Cinder Storm sucks. It has a very niche trial healer use, and even then who uses DK healers?

:slowly raises his hand while looking at his one and only healer:
I mean, cinder is really nice, it is maybe smaller than healing springs but has better heal and duration. I think it also hits dk theme really well (being melee class) but thing is, even after the buff to it (and then nerf to sustain meh) and the buff to the obsidian shard, i still feel like i am lacking a special synergy to give group. Heck, i am not even sure obsidian shard is worth using, combat prayer will be better in most situations (because of double travel time, a need of enemy and being aoe vs 2 people)

OG_Kaveman

Iskiab wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP focuses only on the differences that suit their interest. Those differences that are ignored in the OP show they are very different skills.

I am not suggesting change is or is not warranted. Just that the comparison is biased.

Not really. A lot of classes have a ground effect heal, it’s just only some get used, Warden and Templar, and the others don’t.

I think the reason other class’ ground effect abilities are so bad is they don’t want to homogenize the classes too much.

No doubt though, Cinder Storm sucks. It has a very niche trial healer use, and even then who uses DK healers?

The only class that doesn't have a ground based AOE hot is sorcs, their AOE hot is based on them(power surge).

The reason you don't see the other classes use theirs is because you never see the other class heal. I mean, you have very few niche players, like those who are post in this thread but I can count on one hand the amount of DK healers I have seen in the group finder in my almost 5 years of playing nearly daily dungeons. If you are looking at straight healing numbers, all the ground based, player based in the case for sorcs, hots are around the same healing output. Just size and tick rate are different.

zvavi

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP focuses only on the differences that suit their interest. Those differences that are ignored in the OP show they are very different skills.

I am not suggesting change is or is not warranted. Just that the comparison is biased.

Not really. A lot of classes have a ground effect heal, it’s just only some get used, Warden and Templar, and the others don’t.

I think the reason other class’ ground effect abilities are so bad is they don’t want to homogenize the classes too much.

No doubt though, Cinder Storm sucks. It has a very niche trial healer use, and even then who uses DK healers?

The only class that doesn't have a ground based AOE hot is sorcs, their AOE hot is based on them(power surge).

The reason you don't see the other classes use theirs is because you never see the other class heal. I mean, you have very few niche players, like those who are post in this thread but I can count on one hand the amount of DK healers I have seen in the group finder in my almost 5 years of playing nearly daily dungeons. If you are looking at straight healing numbers, all the ground based, player based in the case for sorcs, hots are around the same healing output. Just size and tick rate are different.

I have argued this before and i will say it again.
power surge is not a healer skill, it is a tank skill.
1. It doesnt scale with sp nor mag.
2. It procs from crit heals, those who have most crit chance are actually the dds. Therefore best skill to proc it is blood altar.
^how to use crit surge correctly

KageNin

Laughs in Refreshing Path

OG_Kaveman

zvavi wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP focuses only on the differences that suit their interest. Those differences that are ignored in the OP show they are very different skills.

I am not suggesting change is or is not warranted. Just that the comparison is biased.

Not really. A lot of classes have a ground effect heal, it’s just only some get used, Warden and Templar, and the others don’t.

I think the reason other class’ ground effect abilities are so bad is they don’t want to homogenize the classes too much.

No doubt though, Cinder Storm sucks. It has a very niche trial healer use, and even then who uses DK healers?

The only class that doesn't have a ground based AOE hot is sorcs, their AOE hot is based on them(power surge).

The reason you don't see the other classes use theirs is because you never see the other class heal. I mean, you have very few niche players, like those who are post in this thread but I can count on one hand the amount of DK healers I have seen in the group finder in my almost 5 years of playing nearly daily dungeons. If you are looking at straight healing numbers, all the ground based, player based in the case for sorcs, hots are around the same healing output. Just size and tick rate are different.

I have argued this before and i will say it again.
power surge is not a healer skill, it is a tank skill.
1. It doesnt scale with sp nor mag.
2. It procs from crit heals, those who have most crit chance are actually the dds. Therefore best skill to proc it is blood altar.
^how to use crit surge correctly

This is just false. You need to get crit heals, a dps is not going to be healing other people for that to matter and tanks are not going to have even the amount of crit that a healer has, which ought to be at least 39% more likely 45%, (10% base, 9% from cp 10% from light armor passive and 10% from major prophecy, 6% from minor prophecy) a sorc healer will have at least illustrious healing going with combat prayer, radiant regeneration as well, all this would lead to a much higher uptime on power surge on an actual healer then a tank with blood altar. And then there is the fact that power surge does nothing for a tank and sorc tanks bar space is precious as you have to double bar the clanfear.

Iskiab

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP focuses only on the differences that suit their interest. Those differences that are ignored in the OP show they are very different skills.

I am not suggesting change is or is not warranted. Just that the comparison is biased.

Not really. A lot of classes have a ground effect heal, it’s just only some get used, Warden and Templar, and the others don’t.

I think the reason other class’ ground effect abilities are so bad is they don’t want to homogenize the classes too much.

No doubt though, Cinder Storm sucks. It has a very niche trial healer use, and even then who uses DK healers?

The only class that doesn't have a ground based AOE hot is sorcs, their AOE hot is based on them(power surge).

The reason you don't see the other classes use theirs is because you never see the other class heal. I mean, you have very few niche players, like those who are post in this thread but I can count on one hand the amount of DK healers I have seen in the group finder in my almost 5 years of playing nearly daily dungeons. If you are looking at straight healing numbers, all the ground based, player based in the case for sorcs, hots are around the same healing output. Just size and tick rate are different.

I have argued this before and i will say it again.
power surge is not a healer skill, it is a tank skill.
1. It doesnt scale with sp nor mag.
2. It procs from crit heals, those who have most crit chance are actually the dds. Therefore best skill to proc it is blood altar.
^how to use crit surge correctly

This is just false. You need to get crit heals, a dps is not going to be healing other people for that to matter and tanks are not going to have even the amount of crit that a healer has, which ought to be at least 39% more likely 45%, (10% base, 9% from cp 10% from light armor passive and 10% from major prophecy, 6% from minor prophecy) a sorc healer will have at least illustrious healing going with combat prayer, radiant regeneration as well, all this would lead to a much higher uptime on power surge on an actual healer then a tank with blood altar. And then there is the fact that power surge does nothing for a tank and sorc tanks bar space is precious as you have to double bar the clanfear.

Agreed, it also scales with healing done, a stat no one but a healer would use.

zvavi

@Iskiab and @OG_Kaveman to answer you two, life steal (blood altar) counts as my heal, but crits from the higher modifier of the one that procced it (the damage dealers) and there are those who invest in healing done in cp. TANKS
While you are correct about clannfear being double barred, i would agree that it is pretty inconvenient, but for dungeon heal tank setup still good, back bar lightning with major buff, wall+shock infused, altar, power surge, clannfear, war horn, front bar s/b, taunt, ranged taunt/silver leash (as situation need) clannfear, 2 more skill slots, barrier.

OG_Kaveman

zvavi wrote: »

@Iskiab and @OG_Kaveman to answer you two, life steal (blood altar) counts as my heal, but crits from the higher modifier of the one that procced it (the damage dealers) and there are those who invest in healing done in cp. TANKS
While you are correct about clannfear being double barred, i would agree that it is pretty inconvenient, but for dungeon heal tank setup still good, back bar lightning with major buff, wall+shock infused, altar, power surge, clannfear, war horn, front bar s/b, taunt, ranged taunt/silver leash (as situation need) clannfear, 2 more skill slots, barrier.

Look, I get that power surge *can* be used on a tank, I use echoing vigor all the time on my DK tank, that doesn't mean that it is that the skill is *for* tanks, or is even a tank skill. The bottom line is that a sorc healer is going to be able to make much more use out of the skill then a sorc tank. Full stop. There are much more important skills that a sorc tank ought to have on their bar, there are not that many more important skills that a sorc healer will have.

AcadianPaladin

Interesting thread. One point I haven't seen mentioned yet is that cleansing ritual has a range of 0, requiring the templar to position themselves prior to casting it for best effect. Cinder Storm offers more flexibility in positioning since the dk can cast its origin point out as far as 22m. I do think it is slight advantage that the dk can better drop the HoT right on the tank in the middle of the fight while standing back a bit. My healplar often runs in close enough to kiss the tank, drops her ritual then backs away (hoping to not pull too many foes with her).

Iskiab

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Interesting thread. One point I haven't seen mentioned yet is that cleansing ritual has a range of 0, requiring the templar to position themselves prior to casting it for best effect. Cinder Storm offers more flexibility in positioning since the dk can cast its origin point out as far as 22m. I do think it is slight advantage that the dk can better drop the HoT right on the tank in the middle of the fight while standing back a bit. My healplar often runs in close enough to kiss the tank, drops her ritual then backs away (hoping to not pull too many foes with her).

What’s the range on ritual? 20m?

So a DK would be able to stand maybe 5m further back to apply it under a tank if they wanted to, whereas a Templar will heal everyone... unless they’re really spread out? I don’t really see that as an advantage.

Besides, as a healer in pve I worry more about healing dps then tanks. I mainly focus on supplying tanks synergies for their sustain, they can usually take care of themselves, which is another way ritual is better.

OG_Kaveman

Iskiab wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Interesting thread. One point I haven't seen mentioned yet is that cleansing ritual has a range of 0, requiring the templar to position themselves prior to casting it for best effect. Cinder Storm offers more flexibility in positioning since the dk can cast its origin point out as far as 22m. I do think it is slight advantage that the dk can better drop the HoT right on the tank in the middle of the fight while standing back a bit. My healplar often runs in close enough to kiss the tank, drops her ritual then backs away (hoping to not pull too many foes with her).

What’s the range on ritual? 20m?

So a DK would be able to stand maybe 5m further back to apply it under a tank if they wanted to, whereas a Templar will heal everyone... unless they’re really spread out? I don’t really see that as an advantage.

Besides, as a healer in pve I worry more about healing dps then tanks. I mainly focus on supplying tanks synergies for their sustain, they can usually take care of themselves, which is another way ritual is better.

Cleansing ritual has a 12 meter radius. The way you are asking looks like you are looking for any reason to make cleansing ritual overpowered, it is not a good look.

Iskiab

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Interesting thread. One point I haven't seen mentioned yet is that cleansing ritual has a range of 0, requiring the templar to position themselves prior to casting it for best effect. Cinder Storm offers more flexibility in positioning since the dk can cast its origin point out as far as 22m. I do think it is slight advantage that the dk can better drop the HoT right on the tank in the middle of the fight while standing back a bit. My healplar often runs in close enough to kiss the tank, drops her ritual then backs away (hoping to not pull too many foes with her).

What’s the range on ritual? 20m?

So a DK would be able to stand maybe 5m further back to apply it under a tank if they wanted to, whereas a Templar will heal everyone... unless they’re really spread out? I don’t really see that as an advantage.

Besides, as a healer in pve I worry more about healing dps then tanks. I mainly focus on supplying tanks synergies for their sustain, they can usually take care of themselves, which is another way ritual is better.

Cleansing ritual has a 12 meter radius. The way you are asking looks like you are looking for any reason to make cleansing ritual overpowered, it is not a good look.

Overpowered is subjective, but pretending Cinder Storm is even close to as good is a joke.

Hotdog_23

To fix cinderstorm

1. Get rid of the snare, no uses the skill for it.
2. Increase radius to 8mor 12m
3. Give a purge synergy of 1 negative effect.

OG_Kaveman

Iskiab wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Interesting thread. One point I haven't seen mentioned yet is that cleansing ritual has a range of 0, requiring the templar to position themselves prior to casting it for best effect. Cinder Storm offers more flexibility in positioning since the dk can cast its origin point out as far as 22m. I do think it is slight advantage that the dk can better drop the HoT right on the tank in the middle of the fight while standing back a bit. My healplar often runs in close enough to kiss the tank, drops her ritual then backs away (hoping to not pull too many foes with her).

What’s the range on ritual? 20m?

So a DK would be able to stand maybe 5m further back to apply it under a tank if they wanted to, whereas a Templar will heal everyone... unless they’re really spread out? I don’t really see that as an advantage.

Besides, as a healer in pve I worry more about healing dps then tanks. I mainly focus on supplying tanks synergies for their sustain, they can usually take care of themselves, which is another way ritual is better.

Cleansing ritual has a 12 meter radius. The way you are asking looks like you are looking for any reason to make cleansing ritual overpowered, it is not a good look.

Overpowered is subjective, but pretending Cinder Storm is even close to as good is a joke.

No one said it was *good*, which is subjective as well by the way, even I have stated what I would change about it, though I wouldn't put a synergy on it, but the warden AOE hot, budding seeds and cleansing ritual have one already but the way you are desperately looking for any reason to try to prove your point is not going to be the way to go about making your point.

Stridig

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

To fix cinderstorm

1. Get rid of the snare, no uses the skill for it.
2. Increase radius to 8mor 12m
3. Give a purge synergy of 1 negative effect.

I will have to disagree that nobody uses this skill for the snare. Its dropped on breaches full of pugs all the time. It's very underrated in my opinion.

AcadianPaladin

Iskiab wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Interesting thread. One point I haven't seen mentioned yet is that cleansing ritual has a range of 0, requiring the templar to position themselves prior to casting it for best effect. Cinder Storm offers more flexibility in positioning since the dk can cast its origin point out as far as 22m. I do think it is slight advantage that the dk can better drop the HoT right on the tank in the middle of the fight while standing back a bit. My healplar often runs in close enough to kiss the tank, drops her ritual then backs away (hoping to not pull too many foes with her).

What’s the range on ritual? 20m?

So a DK would be able to stand maybe 5m further back to apply it under a tank if they wanted to, whereas a Templar will heal everyone... unless they’re really spread out? I don’t really see that as an advantage.

Besides, as a healer in pve I worry more about healing dps then tanks. I mainly focus on supplying tanks synergies for their sustain, they can usually take care of themselves, which is another way ritual is better.

Range on ritual is 0; radius is 12m. Range on cinder is 22m; radius is 5m.

I'm not advocating for cinder, simply pointing out a consideration I had not seen mentioned.

Zer0_CooL

Yes i could have been taking that into account aswell, but my perspective is mainly PvP focused, where i think placing a HoT 22m away from you isn't much of a use. So this feature can be neglected.

Also even caltrops that work similar to eruption, have a diameter of 8m. (movementspeed reduction of 50%)

Iskiab

You guys realize that ritual is almost 8 times the size of cinder storm?

/L2Algebra

AcadianPaladin

Comparing DK and Templar is like apples and oranges. Ritual is better (I think) than cinder but is wielded by a class that lacks class access to skills that lock down foes, chain in foes or provide major sorcery/brutality. Dk can do all those things but lacks in other areas. My only point is that classes do have pros and cons that vary among classes. We can't cherry pick a skill from one class and examine it in a vacuum.

Should cinder have an 8m radius instead of a 5m radius? I don't care.