Could ALMSIVI be mantled?

ArgonianAssassin

Or would this be the same as attempting to mantle the Anticipations? If they could be mantled, what would it mean to walk like them, would they have to murder the Nerevarine / a Nerevar equivalent? Would the result be a new, single deity named ALMSIVI, or would all 3 of the Tribunal need to be mantled & recreated individually? Alternatively, could ALMSIVI return through incarnates, similar to the Nerevarine?

VaranisArano

The power of the Tribunal came from using the tools of Kagrenac on the heart of Lorkhan and diminished slowly once they were cut off from that source of power. Like Nerevar and Dagoth Ur, they don't actually have extraordinary power of their own. Extremely talented individuals, yes, but not the gods they tried to become.

Unlike Nerevar, they also don't have a friendly daedric prince in their corner guiding a series of Incarnates in a millenia-long attempt to recreate the alliance-building feat of Resdayn in order to become Nerevar's Incarnate Nerevarine. (The Nerevarine isn't something you are, its something you become, and if you fail, you were never Nerevarine just a failed Incarnate.) They sorta, uh, PO'd their friendly neighborhood daedric princes into pulling the whole Nerevarine thing in revenge, in fact.

So my suspicion is that it would take help from Azura, Mephala, and/or Boethiah to get any Incarnate of Almalexia, Vivec, or Sotha Sil going...and we've yet to see any evidence why the Reclamations would be the least bit interested in doing so after Azura spent centuries organizing her coup which resulted in the destruction of the Tribunal's reputation, power, and ultimately lands the responsibility for much of Red Year squarely at their feet.

RaddlemanNumber7

For all their power and their hubris I believe the Tribunes are still only three separate living mortals. I would not consider it possible to mantle them, either individually or collectively

But, as I understand it, all that out-of-game MK stuff like mantling is meant to be like a creation kit for lore, for people to use to make up their own character stories or write fanfic. It's there to be accepted, adapted or ignored as individual players wish. So, go ahead, feel free. If you want your character to mantle Sotha Sil, Vivec or Almalexia I won't judge you

vestahls

When it comes to ALMSIVI specifically, it might help that Vivec is one of them, because out of the three he is one (iIrc the only one of the Tribunal) that achieved CHIM, which actually made him stronger than any Divine, possibly stronger than most Daedra (certainly stronger than Azura, Mephala, and Boethia, who were considered the Good Daedra even while ALMSIVI were in power because they recognised the power of the Tribunal, and were subservient to it).

So in this case, they wouldn't need to have the Anticipations on their side, Vivec himself could do what Azura did for Nerevar.

But without Vivec's assistance, if someone wanted to mantle Almalexia for example, they might be faced with a challenge. Although beeing empowered via the Heart of Lorkhan, after one year away from it her power would already diminish; and with the heart destroyed, her divinity went away as well, which set her right back to whatever subgradient of creation beneath the divines she started out as being - i.e. she was just a mortal. And I'm not sure you can mantle mere mortals, when you mantle someone, the idea is you aim way above yourself.

ArgonianAssassin

vestahls wrote: »

When it comes to ALMSIVI specifically, it might help that Vivec is one of them, because out of the three he is one (iIrc the only one of the Tribunal) that achieved CHIM, which actually made him stronger than any Divine, possibly stronger than most Daedra (certainly stronger than Azura, Mephala, and Boethia, who were considered the Good Daedra even while ALMSIVI were in power because they recognised the power of the Tribunal, and were subservient to it).

So in this case, they wouldn't need to have the Anticipations on their side, Vivec himself could do what Azura did for Nerevar.

But without Vivec's assistance, if someone wanted to mantle Almalexia for example, they might be faced with a challenge. Although beeing empowered via the Heart of Lorkhan, after one year away from it her power would already diminish; and with the heart destroyed, her divinity went away as well, which set her right back to whatever subgradient of creation beneath the divines she started out as being - i.e. she was just a mortal. And I'm not sure you can mantle mere mortals, when you mantle someone, the idea is you aim way above yourself.

Good point about Vivec, but I wonder, the Tribunal's power through the heart *does* put them well beyond any other mortal Dunmer, doesn't it? even the most powerful mages, like Neloth, or DIvayth Fyr, aren't equal to the power of ALMSIVI, so by attempting to mantle one of them, you would be aiming for something well beyond yourself, yea? And even so, even if Almalexia herself is a mere mortal, what about what she represents with her position within ALMSIVI? Would it be enough for someone to walk like the collective Dunmeri idea of her & embody the ideas & concepts she represents? If they could, would the result be Almalexia reborn, or would the mantler be something new, a 'different' or idealized form of what people *thought* Almalexia was?

ArgonianAssassin

VaranisArano wrote: »

The power of the Tribunal came from using the tools of Kagrenac on the heart of Lorkhan and diminished slowly once they were cut off from that source of power. Like Nerevar and Dagoth Ur, they don't actually have extraordinary power of their own. Extremely talented individuals, yes, but not the gods they tried to become.

Unlike Nerevar, they also don't have a friendly daedric prince in their corner guiding a series of Incarnates in a millenia-long attempt to recreate the alliance-building feat of Resdayn in order to become Nerevar's Incarnate Nerevarine. (The Nerevarine isn't something you are, its something you become, and if you fail, you were never Nerevarine just a failed Incarnate.) They sorta, uh, PO'd their friendly neighborhood daedric princes into pulling the whole Nerevarine thing in revenge, in fact.

So my suspicion is that it would take help from Azura, Mephala, and/or Boethiah to get any Incarnate of Almalexia, Vivec, or Sotha Sil going...and we've yet to see any evidence why the Reclamations would be the least bit interested in doing so after Azura spent centuries organizing her coup which resulted in the destruction of the Tribunal's reputation, power, and ultimately lands the responsibility for much of Red Year squarely at their feet.

Do we know that divine intervention is a requirement to be an incarnate, though? The PC has the option to deny their role fated role as Nerevarine, simply being a person who happened to walk the similarly enough to become recognized as Nerevarine.

All theory & conjecture, but what if the Nerevarine in Akavir got a husband, met an 'exotic dancer' in an important city & traveled with a powerful mage & advisor, they then fight whatever battle they fight in Akavir against the BBEG trying to use some powerful tool they found on Akavir, and is then betrayed by these 3 friends they made & they take this powerful tool for themselves. Would those 3 people have walked the path similarly enough to Almalexia, Sotha Sil & Vivec to have individually been incarnates of ALMSIVI, or even moreso, be in the process of mantling them?

VaranisArano

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

When it comes to ALMSIVI specifically, it might help that Vivec is one of them, because out of the three he is one (iIrc the only one of the Tribunal) that achieved CHIM, which actually made him stronger than any Divine, possibly stronger than most Daedra (certainly stronger than Azura, Mephala, and Boethia, who were considered the Good Daedra even while ALMSIVI were in power because they recognised the power of the Tribunal, and were subservient to it).

So in this case, they wouldn't need to have the Anticipations on their side, Vivec himself could do what Azura did for Nerevar.

But without Vivec's assistance, if someone wanted to mantle Almalexia for example, they might be faced with a challenge. Although beeing empowered via the Heart of Lorkhan, after one year away from it her power would already diminish; and with the heart destroyed, her divinity went away as well, which set her right back to whatever subgradient of creation beneath the divines she started out as being - i.e. she was just a mortal. And I'm not sure you can mantle mere mortals, when you mantle someone, the idea is you aim way above yourself.

Good point about Vivec, but I wonder, the Tribunal's power through the heart *does* put them well beyond any other mortal Dunmer, doesn't it? even the most powerful mages, like Neloth, or DIvayth Fyr, aren't equal to the power of ALMSIVI, so by attempting to mantle one of them, you would be aiming for something well beyond yourself, yea? And even so, even if Almalexia herself is a mere mortal, what about what she represents with her position within ALMSIVI? Would it be enough for someone to walk like the collective Dunmeri idea of her & embody the ideas & concepts she represents? If they could, would the result be Almalexia reborn, or would the mantler be something new, a 'different' or idealized form of what people *thought* Almalexia was?

Almalexia, in her position as ALM, was the anticipation of Boethiah. While distinct, she wasn't anything entirely new or unique.

Moreover, there is no ALM without the power of the Heart. In the Tribunal DLC, we see that Almalexia is slipping into insanity as she attempts to cling to her position and the love of her people even as she feels her power draining away. She's losing the power that made her "ALM" and simply cannot handle it - lashing out at Sotha Sil, the Nerevarine, and the people of Mournhold in the process - instead of channeling what power she's has left to help with the destruction of Red Year everyone knows is coming. As much as Vivec is at fault for leaving Baar Dau in place until it was too late, Almalexia has the chance to work with the Nerevarine and Helseth to prepare for Red Year and acts selfishly instead, murdering Sotha Sil and trying to kill the Nerevarine to retain the love of her people as long as she can.

Essentially, without the Heart and the Tools, there's nothing separating Almalexia from other capable individuals like Divayth, Neloth or the Nerevarine. She knows it and that's part of what drives her to madness. The same is true of Sotha Sil - he's a very capable individual, certainly an honored advisor of Nerevar - but it took the Heart to make him anything more. In the Tribunal DLC, we see that he accepted this with much more dignity than Almalexia, which is part of why she murdered him. (Vivec is...YMMV depending on how much you like Kirkbride.)

That replacement of her and the others is essentially what happens in the Reclamations after Red Year. The Dunmer realize that just as they once revered the Tribunal as replacements for the Three Good Daedra of the Velothi people prior to Azura's curse/the use of the Heart, now the Three Good Daedra have reclaimed their original position. That's well in place as Morrowind's religious practice by Skyrim's Dragonborn DLC.

So one thing we can say is that in 200 years since Red Year, no one has done anything about mantling the Tribunal, at least that Neloth or the Redorans at Raven Rock knew about. I'm not surprised by this at all. ALM, SI, and VI utterly failed the Dunmer in leading to Red Year and have been soundly proven inferior to the Reclamations.


Personally, I don't see the point of anyone post Tribunal DLC/Red Year wanting to mantle the Tribunal or to reincarnate them. They were mortals who stole the power of the Heart to make themselves gods, then they gradually fell when they lost that source of power, taking a lot of people with them. There's not much there to mantle, what there is to mantle was stolen in the first place, and we know that reincarnation a la Nerevar is NOT an easy process.

Another big difference between Nerevar and the Tribunal is that there was a need for Nerevar Reincarnate. Facing the threat of Dagoth Ur, Morrowind needed a leader who could reunite Houses and Tribes while resisting the temptation of the Tools and revealing the lies of the Tribunal.
Who needs the Tribunal, who broke their promises to not use the tools and who's actions directly failed to defeat Dagoth Ur or prevent Red Year? Who needs Almalexia, especially, who's proven herself to be a tantrum-throwing murderer who can't handle losing her stolen power?

I suppose there's an interesting fanfiction plot bunny there - a Morrowind who really needs Almalexia back for a second chance in spite or because of all her flaws. But even if I were to write that, much of the interest would come from Almalexia grappling with her flaws, her limitations, and her mortality - all those things she failed to deal with constructively the first time.

Aigym_Hlervu

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

Or would this be the same as attempting to mantle the Anticipations? If they could be mantled, what would it mean to walk like them, would they have to murder the Nerevarine / a Nerevar equivalent? Would the result be a new, single deity named ALMSIVI, or would all 3 of the Tribunal need to be mantled & recreated individually? Alternatively, could ALMSIVI return through incarnates, similar to the Nerevarine?

"Sotha Sil made a chair for himself and sat. The Scribe turned to his friend, his mentor, his child shared with many fathers. "Did you come to say goodbye, Seht?"
"In a way," Seht replied, and there was no sadness in his voice. "Perhaps another form will appear that looks much like me and plays the role he is needed to play in yet another tale. I will be gone by then."
- "Sotha Sil and the Scribe" by Andrunal, Seer of Verse.

PrayingSeraph

vestahls wrote: »

When it comes to ALMSIVI specifically, it might help that Vivec is one of them, because out of the three he is one (iIrc the only one of the Tribunal) that achieved CHIM, which actually made him stronger than any Divine, possibly stronger than most Daedra (certainly stronger than Azura, Mephala, and Boethia, who were considered the Good Daedra even while ALMSIVI were in power because they recognised the power of the Tribunal, and were subservient to it).

So in this case, they wouldn't need to have the Anticipations on their side, Vivec himself could do what Azura did for Nerevar.

But without Vivec's assistance, if someone wanted to mantle Almalexia for example, they might be faced with a challenge. Although beeing empowered via the Heart of Lorkhan, after one year away from it her power would already diminish; and with the heart destroyed, her divinity went away as well, which set her right back to whatever subgradient of creation beneath the divines she started out as being - i.e. she was just a mortal. And I'm not sure you can mantle mere mortals, when you mantle someone, the idea is you aim way above yourself.

Can someone point to where in canon lore that mentions Vivec achieved CHIM? I know he does in MK's post-Bethesda fan fics, but I can't recall seeing that in actual canon, though I could be wrong.

RaddlemanNumber7

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

ArgonianAssassin wrote: »

Or would this be the same as attempting to mantle the Anticipations? If they could be mantled, what would it mean to walk like them, would they have to murder the Nerevarine / a Nerevar equivalent? Would the result be a new, single deity named ALMSIVI, or would all 3 of the Tribunal need to be mantled & recreated individually? Alternatively, could ALMSIVI return through incarnates, similar to the Nerevarine?

"Sotha Sil made a chair for himself and sat. The Scribe turned to his friend, his mentor, his child shared with many fathers. "Did you come to say goodbye, Seht?"
"In a way," Seht replied, and there was no sadness in his voice. "Perhaps another form will appear that looks much like me and plays the role he is needed to play in yet another tale. I will be gone by then."
- "Sotha Sil and the Scribe" by Andrunal, Seer of Verse.

This book refers to the process of Sotha Sil's self-perfection. It is written at the point in time (some time before ESO occurs) were Sotha Sil is about to cast off all the imperfections that constitute Sotha Sil the man, leaving only the perfection of Sotha Sil the god behind. Sotha Sil is telling the scribe that if he ever sees Sotha Sil again it will not be the Sotha Sil that was the man he knew, it will be Sotha Sil the self-perfected god.

This sentence, "Perhaps another form will appear that looks much like me and plays the role he is needed to play in yet another tale. I will be gone by then." is an obvious reference to the events in ESO.

The book does not imply any kind of "second coming" for the Tribunal after their destruction in the third era. The Tribunal are traitors and apostates. If they ever reincarnate it will probably be as the lowest form of slime, and if they ever stride the world again it will be stuck to the bottom of someone's shoe.

RaddlemanNumber7

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

vestahls wrote: »

When it comes to ALMSIVI specifically, it might help that Vivec is one of them, because out of the three he is one (iIrc the only one of the Tribunal) that achieved CHIM, which actually made him stronger than any Divine, possibly stronger than most Daedra (certainly stronger than Azura, Mephala, and Boethia, who were considered the Good Daedra even while ALMSIVI were in power because they recognised the power of the Tribunal, and were subservient to it).

So in this case, they wouldn't need to have the Anticipations on their side, Vivec himself could do what Azura did for Nerevar.

But without Vivec's assistance, if someone wanted to mantle Almalexia for example, they might be faced with a challenge. Although beeing empowered via the Heart of Lorkhan, after one year away from it her power would already diminish; and with the heart destroyed, her divinity went away as well, which set her right back to whatever subgradient of creation beneath the divines she started out as being - i.e. she was just a mortal. And I'm not sure you can mantle mere mortals, when you mantle someone, the idea is you aim way above yourself.

Can someone point to where in canon lore that mentions Vivec achieved CHIM? I know he does in MK's post-Bethesda fan fics, but I can't recall seeing that in actual canon, though I could be wrong.

I would like to see that too.

I've always thought that inside the game Vivec's claims to be a Chimster were a complete fantasy on his part. There is so much evidence in the game of his epic failure to achieve CHIM, and none that I have ever found that corroborates his claim.

Aigym_Hlervu

A good theory, @RaddlemanNumber7. I think it is the business of the OP to treat the book the way he thinks suitable depending on his knowledge of the lore and its understanding, so let's leave it to him. Regarding the Tribunal theme: you seem to treat it way too heavy-handedly there. They are not only traitors. Read and play TES games more contemplatively to better understand them, their nature and their necessity to the history of Tamriel from the multiple perspectives if you wish to understand them better.