[Suggestion] 2-Stat Skills for PvP & PvE

seerevaloc

Dear Zenimax & Esteemed forum users,

This is just a discussion about "What if skills have two semi-dependent stats?" like stats will change when "in PvP Zone" and "out of PvP Zone".

So when you want to balance something that hits PvP but works just fine in PvE (or vice versa), you don't need to flat-nerf the whole skill, instead, play with the PvP-zone stats and everyone happy.

Thanks in advance for your valuable inputs, regards.

Royaji

You guys should stop thinking that ZOS is unaware of this concept. It is their conscious design decision to treat PvP and PvE as the same system. Whether we like it or not.

seerevaloc

Royaji wrote: »

You guys should stop thinking that ZOS is unaware of this concept. It is their conscious design decision to treat PvP and PvE as the same system. Whether we like it or not.

Thanks Royaji,

But how can I confirm it's their "conscious" design decision? It doesn't look rational because there are sets heavily buffing PvP related dynamics and sets that buffing PvE related dynamics.

If they were thought "same for everything" anything should be able to do everything. Which is "no". Like Minor Slayer in Dungeons/Trials or +2000HP when a pot is active etc.

They are definitely thought to be different.

PS: I don't whine or complain, I'm happy with what I have already. Just pushing a suggestion about this idea I was thinking recently.

VaranisArano

seerevaloc wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

You guys should stop thinking that ZOS is unaware of this concept. It is their conscious design decision to treat PvP and PvE as the same system. Whether we like it or not.

Thanks Royaji,

But how can I confirm it's their "conscious" design decision? It doesn't look rational because there are sets heavily buffing PvP related dynamics and sets that buffing PvE related dynamics.

If they were thought "same for everything" anything should be able to do everything. Which is "no". Like Minor Slayer in Dungeons/Trials or +2000HP when a pot is active etc.

They are definitely thought to be different.

PS: I don't whine or complain, I'm happy with what I have already. Just pushing a suggestion about this idea I was thinking recently.

We know its a conscious decision because they already have the mechanism to do what you know suggest...and use it very sparingly.

They've already got Battle Spirit, which changes your stats and healing in a PVP zone. They already got certain skills that have varying effects vs NPCs and Players - example: Negate, which silences instead of stuns.

If ZOS wanted to just "play with the PVP stats", they could. In the vast majority of cases, they don't do that. They deliberately change classes, sets, and skills in both PVP and PVE. Examples: Morrowind sustain changes, Nerfmire Damage Shields and passive dodge - really, for the vast majority of nerfs, ZOS deliberately changes for both PVE and PVP.

seerevaloc

VaranisArano wrote: »

seerevaloc wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

You guys should stop thinking that ZOS is unaware of this concept. It is their conscious design decision to treat PvP and PvE as the same system. Whether we like it or not.

Thanks Royaji,

But how can I confirm it's their "conscious" design decision? It doesn't look rational because there are sets heavily buffing PvP related dynamics and sets that buffing PvE related dynamics.

If they were thought "same for everything" anything should be able to do everything. Which is "no". Like Minor Slayer in Dungeons/Trials or +2000HP when a pot is active etc.

They are definitely thought to be different.

PS: I don't whine or complain, I'm happy with what I have already. Just pushing a suggestion about this idea I was thinking recently.

We know its a conscious decision because they already have the mechanism to do what you know suggest...and use it very sparingly.

They've already got Battle Spirit, which changes your stats and healing in a PVP zone. They already got certain skills that have varying effects vs NPCs and Players - example: Negate, which silences instead of stuns.

If ZOS wanted to just "play with the PVP stats", they could. In the vast majority of cases, they don't do that. They deliberately change classes, sets, and skills in both PVP and PVE. Examples: Morrowind sustain changes, Nerfmire Damage Shields and passive dodge - really, for the vast majority of nerfs, ZOS deliberately changes for both PVE and PVP.

Nerfmire

Thanks both of you. My questions cleared here as I see things are well known & admitted.

Have a nice day.

validifyedneb18_ESO

Royaji wrote: »

You guys should stop thinking that ZOS is unaware of this concept. It is their conscious design decision to treat PvP and PvE as the same system. Whether we like it or not.

It's always convenient to just say +5000 health and *0.5f damage. This is a good example of corporatism at ZOS holding back efficiency in design. This saved a lot of development time once, for sure, now every time they add a new set it has to be carefully mechanically designed in consideration of both systems at once.

Why do you think the best sets in the game are often stacking bonuses? Because these bonuses will only stack in constant fighting, and wont stack fully in short skirmish based PVP. Imagine in Relequens did its 20stack effect in a single hit. PVP 3000 dps a second dot simply by hitting an enemy once.

This is why the PVE meta is so stale. The PVE sets must be carefully designed so that they CANT be useful in PVP, and PVP sets can be more interesting but must be designed to be much less powerful than meta sets, so they cant be used in PVE.

karekiz

Would be interesting to see a divided game. Will never happen, as the only time it could be would be the release, not 5 years in. I mean who would flip their entire game over 5 years in?

idk

Royaji wrote: »

You guys should stop thinking that ZOS is unaware of this concept. It is their conscious design decision to treat PvP and PvE as the same system. Whether we like it or not.

And Zos has been very specific that they don’t want a difference in PvE vs PvP outside of battle spirit.

No knocking OPs effort but Zos already provided us with an adamant no.

Rahar

seerevaloc wrote: »

Dear Zenimax & Esteemed forum users,

This is just a discussion about "What if skills have two semi-dependent stats?" like stats will change when "in PvP Zone" and "out of PvP Zone".

So when you want to balance something that hits PvP but works just fine in PvE (or vice versa), you don't need to flat-nerf the whole skill, instead, play with the PvP-zone stats and everyone happy.

Thanks in advance for your valuable inputs, regards.

I don't think the problem is so much in implementing a system like this, but the confusion and disappointment that comes out of finding out that an ability that you really like in PvE doesn't work the same way in PvP. I know of two MMOs that did this: One from 2005-era gaming (that now has a disappointing successor) and one from modern-era gaming that's 14th in its line.

The 14th one does it wrongly. AFAIK, it guts pretty much everything to narrow you down to a few select skills, and those that you can use are changed significantly and batched, so that everything feels like you're lagging.

However, the 2005-era one did it right, if ever it can be done right. Only a select few skills were changed, with most being left alone. It didn't cause too many issues because you had so many skills to choose from. However, what it did do is make the balance team work twice as hard on what was meant to be a primarily PvP-focused game.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it will work here, in ESO. It's too much of a tossup and could end really, really badly for a few reasons. We're often forced to run a few skills to be competitive (like stamina and 2h). The balance could be thrown in one direction or another, where most or all of the skills we run are changed. That wouldn't be fun at all, and end in weird places like enjoying one side of one class in just PvP, but not PvE. And this on top of trusting the balance team to do twice the work in the same time period... I just don't like the sound of that.

We should explore other, more pertinent options (like more robust balancing: dealing with long-standing core issues, getting rid of lag, changing up class passives, responding quickly to balance issues) before we take it to an extreme like splitting skill functionality in game modes. Of course... we're not in charge of that, so one can hope that's what happens. If it ever comes to splitting skills, I hope they'll work with battle spirit first.