Magden stun

Muskrap

First off, I would like to say I think it wasn't necessary to change the warden netch. I find it pushes the class more towards a tanky setup instead of being able to produce damage. Which I have seen around cyrodiil quite a bit. A lot of 35k+ Magdens that are running around as tanky healbots. I think a large portion of that is due to the Magden not having access to a valid stun now.

Yes, Magden just got the new Artic Blast. But as far as solo or group content goes unless you're brawling there's no real good way to set the stun up to do damage to players. It takes too long to tick down and buffing it more would just make it overperform in places like battlegrounds where there's more brawling and less kiting in a smaller area. So, I will break down the options

Option 1: Artic blast, For the reasons stated above combined with the class being a medium ranged class having a stun that keeps you in melee range not only feels clunky to use but also puts you at a disadvantage since you aren't able to capitalize on the off balance from cliff racer, or keep people in range for another spammable

Option 2: Vamp Drain, this ability should get looked at for damage in general since its unblockable damage. But this ability overall is another clunky stun. You lose at least a half a GCD or more in lag and it forces you to play vampire to use. The damage it does do is negligible since you need to channel it along with it not synergizing at all with the rest of the warden kit.

Option 3: Flame Clench, the adjustments to this ability makes it ridiculously bad for Magden. Its 8m knock back throws people out of northern storm, throws people out of shalk range, or just discombobulate and throws them in a random direction sometimes making it incredibly difficult to aim your shalks. On top of making you build using an inferno staff that doesn't synergize with 60-70% of damage with the kit.

All the other options for a stun are not comparable to these 3 options. Volcanic rune, frozen gate, and sets that offer stuns don't offer you the on-demand crowd control that's needed in pvp

Now what kind of a post would this be if I couldn't provide a solution to this problem.

Shalks should stun off-balanced targets

Shalks being able to stun off balanced targets would give Magden multiple build options and open the class up to be something other than a support tank. It would be similar enough to the old Magden playstyle, open options to players using a lightning staff, and expanding group options.

The stun should be blockable, could be dodgeable, and since shalks are blockable in damage now should have more than enough counterplay to be a good skill.

Let's discuss.

TexGod

I agree. A lot of mag classes are being gimped in 1v1's and outnumbered situations due to the lack of a decent stun.

xBacskay

I completely agree with you, “Mustrat”. A stun on deep fissure would be great and it would actually make sense for magden unlike the current ccs we have available to us.

Iki

You analyzed well magden stun-options, but your solution is bad.
It`s not easy to hit good opponents with shalks and against more mobile targets you will never land shalks without stunning them first. So, no point adding stun-component to skill that you cant land on target without stun...
Also, zos don`t want hard-hitting skills to stun.

My solution would be reverting arctic blast to what it was in last patch, ranged single-target stun with heal. While not awesome, it did it`s job and was worth a slot. Then move arctic blasts current components, aoe-dmg + delayed stun to expansive frost cloak. The forgotten morph of frost cloak that none uses because minor protection in ice fortress is that good. Adding little bit damage output and delayed aoe-stun could make currently lackluster morph a useful option.

These changes would give warden useful and practical but not overperforming cc-toolkit.

NirnStorm

@Muskrap expressing extremely well the harsh reality for Magden at it's current state. Couldn't have said it better myself, 100% with you on this.
I still can't understand why the stun option was taken off shock clench while flame clench got to keep it, but I do like the direction your idea of a solution is going!

Muskrap

I disagree. I find landing shalks to obviously be harder than some other abilities to land. But I dont have a problem landing them fairly consistently. And it would be a good opportunity to give a higher skill cap play if that was the case

Lughlongarm

You forgot to mention bird+ mid -heavy attack. This could be your offensive long range single target stun.

Not sure why players think that a class tool kit should benefit only singular play style.

If you You want to play a kite range build go with cliff racer or the options you mentioned above.
If you want to play a more tanky brawler build, go with Artic blast,.

Muskrap

Lughlongarm wrote: »

You forgot to mention bird+ mid -heavy attack. This could be your offensive long range single target stun.

Not sure why players think that a class tool kit should benefit only singular play style.

If you You want to play a kite range build go with cliff racer or the options you mentioned above.
If you want to play a more tanky brawler build, go with Artic blast,.

Except I didn't forget that. It's honestly not realistic as a stun considering there's no way to use it defensively and especially not when trying to line up a burst. And with cliff racer still being a slower than average projectile and having a minimum distance to proc off balance. There's far too many opportunities to avoid the stun

Muskrap

I am also not asking for them to change artic blast again. I am simply pointing out the current problems with the stun options and recommending another option. If you could read the OP and see why each stun option is limiting.

Goregrinder

Iki wrote: »

You analyzed well magden stun-options, but your solution is bad.
It`s not easy to hit good opponents with shalks and against more mobile targets you will never land shalks without stunning them first. So, no point adding stun-component to skill that you cant land on target without stun...
Also, zos don`t want hard-hitting skills to stun.

My solution would be reverting arctic blast to what it was in last patch, ranged single-target stun with heal. While not awesome, it did it`s job and was worth a slot. Then move arctic blasts current components, aoe-dmg + delayed stun to expansive frost cloak. The forgotten morph of frost cloak that none uses because minor protection in ice fortress is that good. Adding little bit damage output and delayed aoe-stun could make currently lackluster morph a useful option.

These changes would give warden useful and practical but not overperforming cc-toolkit.

Yo Dawg, I heard you like stuns...so here is a stun that needs another stun in order to stun.

Muskrap

Goregrinder wrote: »

Iki wrote: »

You analyzed well magden stun-options, but your solution is bad.
It`s not easy to hit good opponents with shalks and against more mobile targets you will never land shalks without stunning them first. So, no point adding stun-component to skill that you cant land on target without stun...
Also, zos don`t want hard-hitting skills to stun.

My solution would be reverting arctic blast to what it was in last patch, ranged single-target stun with heal. While not awesome, it did it`s job and was worth a slot. Then move arctic blasts current components, aoe-dmg + delayed stun to expansive frost cloak. The forgotten morph of frost cloak that none uses because minor protection in ice fortress is that good. Adding little bit damage output and delayed aoe-stun could make currently lackluster morph a useful option.

These changes would give warden useful and practical but not overperforming cc-toolkit.

Yo Dawg, I heard you like stuns...so here is a stun that needs another stun in order to stun.

Applicable

Trancestor

Yeah but that would force magdens to use cliff racer, which is a terrible spammable.

Muskrap

Trancestor wrote: »

Yeah but that would force magdens to use cliff racer, which is a terrible spammable.

How do you figure? Cliff racer isnt the only way to proc offbalance

Psijic42

As a long term magden pvp player I have to say I agree.

The changes to arctic blast are nice for stamden, it's a really good self-heal. But the loss of an on-demand range stun from the old version of arctic blast was a really big nerf to magdens, who already (I'm gonna say it) don't have an execute.
As is, it seems like ZOS only wants magden to play the role of group support, a role at which they really excel, but every time magden finally gets a decent build it gets nerfed into the ground. Like the changes to destructive reach with the loss of range stun, the nerf to birds, the lack of an execute, stamden also getting a purge from netch.

All of the changes have made me personally just build a stamden, inasmuchas I love my magdens they're either group buffbots or just weaker versions of their green brothers. Magden needs dps buffs.

Personally the idea that I like the best is a simple one, give birds an execute. That, or give impulse an execute. On the stam side both dual wield and two-hander have execute, on the mag side destro staff has none. Thanks zos.

Trancestor

Muskrap wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

Yeah but that would force magdens to use cliff racer, which is a terrible spammable.

How do you figure? Cliff racer isnt the only way to proc offbalance

What other way is there for a magden?

Muskrap

Trancestor wrote: »

Muskrap wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

Yeah but that would force magdens to use cliff racer, which is a terrible spammable.

How do you figure? Cliff racer isnt the only way to proc offbalance

What other way is there for a magden?

Tactician, Lightning wall, cliff racer all of which would work fine if built for.

buttaface

Another thread on the main forum is asking for wardens to be nerfed because they are overloaded. That poster would have a point if wardens had a stun, gap closer or execute in their class kit, so no I think they are fine as is. Very powerful and unique, and other classes should also be.

If you want a stun slot fear. Get a gap closer from a weapon line and possibly an execute too. That way the admittedly overloaded other skills warden has in their class kit are balanced against classes that have had that same degree of overloading taken away. Frankly, wardens make a better stealth ganker than nightblades now with the right gear, build and pots and that shouldn't be the case.

Luckylancer

I use my spammable (bird) as stun and it works fine. It is free and and deals damage. L2P

Muskrap

buttaface wrote: »

Another thread on the main forum is asking for wardens to be nerfed because they are overloaded. That poster would have a point if wardens had a stun, gap closer or execute in their class kit, so no I think they are fine as is. Very powerful and unique, and other classes should also be.

If you want a stun slot fear. Get a gap closer from a weapon line and possibly an execute too. That way the admittedly overloaded other skills warden has in their class kit are balanced against classes that have had that same degree of overloading taken away. Frankly, wardens make a better stealth ganker than nightblades now with the right gear, build and pots and that shouldn't be the case.

Talking about Magden which cant slot 4k cost fear

Muskrap

Luckylancer wrote: »

I use my spammable (bird) as stun and it works fine. It is free and and deals damage. L2P

You must not get into fights with good players, or just Xv1 all day

grannas211

Once Vamp Drain gets it inevitable nerf into the ground, RIP city. I know you said not to look at Artic Blast again; however, I believe they should.

Muskrap

grannas211 wrote: »

Once Vamp Drain gets it inevitable nerf into the ground, RIP city. I know you said not to look at Artic Blast again; however, I believe they should.

Why should it? Shouldnt Magicka warden have reliable stun options?

Which is why the off balance medium weave isn't a good stun its not reliable. You can kill any pug 1v1 without a stun but when it comes to players that know what they are doing or are just spamming CCs on you? you're going to need to alleviate that pressure somehow.

Artic blast shouldnt be warden's only option for stun. And if ZOS is counting off balance as one of magdens stuns they need to take off the 7m minimum range. Because as it stands none of this is reliable for players running damage builds

Muskrap

Luckylancer wrote: »

I use my spammable (bird) as stun and it works fine. It is free and and deals damage. L2P

PC NA come tell me its an l2p issue

grannas211

Muskrap wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

Once Vamp Drain gets it inevitable nerf into the ground, RIP city. I know you said not to look at Artic Blast again; however, I believe they should.

Why should it? Shouldnt Magicka warden have reliable stun options?

Which is why the off balance medium weave isn't a good stun its not reliable. You can kill any pug 1v1 without a stun but when it comes to players that know what they are doing or are just spamming CCs on you? you're going to need to alleviate that pressure somehow.

Artic blast shouldnt be warden's only option for stun. And if ZOS is counting off balance as one of magdens stuns they need to take off the 7m minimum range. Because as it stands none of this is reliable for players running damage builds

No Im saying Magden should. Were agreeing that it should be better no?

Muskrap

grannas211 wrote: »

Muskrap wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

Once Vamp Drain gets it inevitable nerf into the ground, RIP city. I know you said not to look at Artic Blast again; however, I believe they should.

Why should it? Shouldnt Magicka warden have reliable stun options?

Which is why the off balance medium weave isn't a good stun its not reliable. You can kill any pug 1v1 without a stun but when it comes to players that know what they are doing or are just spamming CCs on you? you're going to need to alleviate that pressure somehow.

Artic blast shouldnt be warden's only option for stun. And if ZOS is counting off balance as one of magdens stuns they need to take off the 7m minimum range. Because as it stands none of this is reliable for players running damage builds

No Im saying Magden should. Were agreeing that it should be better no?

No im saying Magden should get a different option instead of just continuously reworking the only stun we have

Lughlongarm

Muskrap wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

You forgot to mention bird+ mid -heavy attack. This could be your offensive long range single target stun.

Not sure why players think that a class tool kit should benefit only singular play style.

If you You want to play a kite range build go with cliff racer or the options you mentioned above.
If you want to play a more tanky brawler build, go with Artic blast,.

Except I didn't forget that. It's honestly not realistic as a stun considering there's no way to use it defensively and especially not when trying to line up a burst. And with cliff racer still being a slower than average projectile and having a minimum distance to proc off balance. There's far too many opportunities to avoid the stun

Yes, you are right. The bird works better as an offensive stun, that's why I use both the bird and Artic blast(as defensive stun). It doesn't count as doubling on a CC skill, as both skills got other primary functionalities. I really think Magdens are in a really good place ATM in terms of CC capabilities and in general.

Also, there are more options you have not mentioned. It is clear for every Stamina focused build that they have to integrate some Magicka utility skills(sometimes even heavily), it is also OK for magicka focused builds to explore some stamina utility skills.
Turn Evil is a great CC skill, also Invasion if you go 1H+S- BB.
Wardens have the luxury now of getting whichever netch they want now(blue or green) so just experience with a green netch+stmina CC, could work out very nicely.

OFC you also have Volcanic Rune and Time Freeze -both kinda niche(Volcanic Rune really needs a buff).

Your idea of giving Shalks CC capabilities back will just not happen. ZOS were very clear about removing CC from high damage abilities(outside of ultimate skills).

But if you were to add more reliable CC to Warden's kit, it should probably be based on trade-offs and not on skills which are already mandatory picks(like Shalks ).

I think that the best candidates should be 'Frozen Retreat', 'Bursting Vines'(both are kinda dead morphs) and the bear ulti(I think it should have 2 active skills, one on each bar, the execute one and the aoe maul one, makes it much more useful and reliable in pvp).

iCaliban

TexGod wrote: »

I agree. A lot of mag classes are being gimped in 1v1's and outnumbered situations due to the lack of a decent stun.

A lot of stuns have been nerfed the last few patches for no real improvement in gameplay.

Flame reach, javelin, reverb, cast time on DB, draining shot, dizzy swing.

The devs keep saying "we dont want damage + a stun on non ults" but that is a fallacy. Without decent damage, reliable stuns, you get dumb tank metas

SoixanteNeuf

I think Draining shot/Flame reach nerfs were warranted - Draining shot was extremely triggering because of the knockback + heal. Stun from shock/flame reach would be extra OP on Magden with Minor vuln from Fletcher this patch and would outperform every other magclass by a long shot. Dizzy swing nerf wasn't warranted though, given the melee range/channel trade off.

I personally think Arctic blast is "okay" as a stun, if a little underwhelming but it's also a damage + healing OT effect. It's a very dense skill with a melee range tradeoff. If the range was increased by 2-4m it would be super viable.

Hexquisite

While not a Stun, I have been using Frost Clench on my Backbar. It is annoying enough that both enemy teams in BGs will focus me at the same time as soon as they see me with my group. But theis requires me to carry a frost staff back bar, when I prefer S & B.

It would be nice to have a class stun, and a class gap closer--I hate when people say just use your Wings as a gap closer.

Muskrap

SoixanteNeuf wrote: »

I think Draining shot/Flame reach nerfs were warranted - Draining shot was extremely triggering because of the knockback + heal. Stun from shock/flame reach would be extra OP on Magden with Minor vuln from Fletcher this patch and would outperform every other magclass by a long shot. Dizzy swing nerf wasn't warranted though, given the melee range/channel trade off.

I personally think Arctic blast is "okay" as a stun, if a little underwhelming but it's also a damage + healing OT effect. It's a very dense skill with a melee range tradeoff. If the range was increased by 2-4m it would be super viable.

Outperform a magsorc? I don't think thats possible with matriarch heals and streak going through block. And alternatively magden can have another option for a stun. Preferably a ranged option

ESO_Nightingale

Bump