Martial Knowledge set utility: git gud or example of overtheorycrafting?

Paramedicus

Way of Martial Knowledge
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(5 items) While your Stamina is below 50%, your Light Attacks cause the enemy to take 8% additional damage for 5 seconds. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds.

Im wondering why this set pop ups in guides for healers, that you can find on net. Max dmg increase is 5% if uptime is 100% (including cooldown). So realistically, it will more like 2-3% in fights, depending on how chaotic they are? And using it seems like so much hassle + risking missing other important buffs/debuffs/heals or even dieing (attention pool isnt infinite).

I guess, that it has some rather niche use for well organized, OP groups and easier bosses? Am I just too nub for it or is this set example of overtheorycrafting?

p00tx

Paramedicus wrote: »

Way of Martial Knowledge
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(5 items) While your Stamina is below 50%, your Light Attacks cause the enemy to take 8% additional damage for 5 seconds. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds.

Im wondering why this set pop ups in guides for healers, that you can find on net. Max dmg increase is 5% if uptime is 100% (including cooldown). So realistically, it will more like 2-3% in fights, depending on how chaotic they are? And using it seems like so much hassle + risking missing other important buffs/debuffs/heals or even dieing (attention pool isnt infinite).

I guess, that it has some rather niche use for well organized, OP groups and easier bosses? Am I just too nub for it or is this set example of overtheorycrafting?

It's a fantastic set, and I wouldn't discount the significance of 5% additional dmg. On the other hand, you definitely hit the nail on the head with your questions. It's not a beginner group set, and is going to be far more effective on an organized group. If you're progressing and need a little more help, there are other sets that can support a learning group more.

That being said, a healer in a progression group is also progressing themselves, so it might be a good idea to learn how to weave the set properly into your rotation during the learning process. Otherwise it's a tiny bit of a reprogression when you reintroduce it. If I'm ever not sure about a set or whether it's right for my group, I usually just bring it up to the raid lead, along with all of my thoughts, concerns, pros, and cons, and let them make the decision.

T3hasiangod

It has a steep learning curve, but it is entirely possible to get good uptime on MK once you learn how it works.

For example, here's one fight with really solid MK uptime. We had only one death to Wing Thrash, which is a DPS placement problem, not a healing issue. The Minor Berserk uptime was great on his stack as well.

So with some practice, it is entirely possible to get high uptime on MK, which directly translates to increased damage. This is important for end-game groups pushing for speed and score.

While MK is not necessary for more casual groups, for people who want to get into end-game raiding, it is an important debuff to learn to maintain.

stileanima

I would not recommend this set to a healer who is just starting out and uncomfortable with mechanics. In my opinion, this set is geared moreso toward experienced groups, and achieving high uptimes, especially in fights with mechanics that will test your ability to properly manage your stamina, will take some getting used to coupled with a strong understanding of the mechanics of the encounter you want to use it in.

It is a really strong group support set, though (one of the strongest debuff sets in the game), and if you are confident in your ability to use it, then I'd definitely go for it. You will 100% see it used in all end-game raid teams for that reason.

If you're interested, I made a video about how to most effectively use Martial Knowledge as a Healer in trials:

https://youtu.be/BmDt8FnHwJc

Most of my recent YouTube videos also show gameplay using MK in Hardmore Sunspire. Here are the 3 most recent:

https://youtu.be/AlN1g6i6TfU
https://youtu.be/kXJ7HTRNlOE
https://youtu.be/6PIG8fgRleI

Gariele

What this set brings is massive over the entirety of a fight. Mixed with Z’ens it can really boost the group.

It can be very clunky feeling at first at least that’s how it felt to me but with practice you find a good place to keep the Stam without worrying about getting stun locked and dying.

I have been practicing with it in more simple raids and on a dummy but this weekend my progression group wanted to try a vMoL Nuke without runners and it was just the extra damage we needed to find success.

techprince

I don't know why they changed the 75% stamina requirement to 50%. 75% was much more better.

Paramedicus

thx all for replies, tho i still get feeling that effect of this set is bit overestimated i.e.

p00tx wrote: »

It's a fantastic set, and I wouldn't discount the significance of 5% additional dmg..

stileanima wrote: »

It is a really strong group support set, though (one of the strongest debuff sets in the game)

if we take 'real-life' data (@T3hasiangod) then we can see that uptime is about 30%. So effective, averange dmg buff is 2,4%. So i'm just wondering if there arent other usefull sets, which would give similar (or even bit worse) results but jsut easier to use. I might be just lazy and looking for reasons to not learn to use it lol. Anyway, I totaly get that even those 2,4% may be totally worth all the hassle in right circumstances (i.e. going for score like you guys mentioned or some boss where every dps point counts).

Nightingale707

Those 30% are on a boss that has coded phases of immunity while he flies into the air for a predefined time. Wich means that the highest possible uptime for any buff/debuff is lower, the shorter the fighttime is (since the phases where you do not hit the boss are always the same lenght)
To know how much uptime those 30% actually are, you need to compare it to other debuffs, that were on the boss, like alkosh/fracture/maim and so on.

starkerealm

Paramedicus wrote: »

So i'm just wondering if there arent other usefull sets, which would give similar (or even bit worse) results but jsut easier to use.

That's the thing about this set, it applies an unnamed debuff. So it will stack with any other debuffs you can get your hands on. Also, it's damage amplification, it's not a resist debuff, so you can't accidentally overpen.

All of that said, this is another example of, "we found a utility set, but no one in the group wanted to give up their damage to run it, let's just throw it at the healer." The thought process has merit, but I deeply dislike it.

If your group is telling you to learn it, then you probably should. If you're not comfortable with it, or find it too finicky to maintain, you should talk to them about that, and see if one of the magDPS will take the hit in your stead.

Also, if you're not running (or planning to run) vet trial score attacks, don't worry about it. This set isn't worth using in 4 man, and it's not going to be the breaking point between being able to clear vet trials (even with extra achievements.) This one is just about squeezing out a little more damage for your score.

starkerealm

Paramedicus wrote: »

(...or some boss where every dps point counts).

There really isn't an example of that. The hardest pass or die DPS checks in the game run around 30k (individual, not group) (there is one 40k check, but the set won't work in there), at that point, a 2.4% bump is less than 1k DPS.

It's a legitimate statement on its face, there might be some hypothetical situation where it matters, but they don't actually exist in game.

starkerealm

techprince wrote: »

I don't know why they changed the 75% stamina requirement to 50%. 75% was much more better.

That's why they changed it. They were toning the set down.

As a general philosophy, when any set becomes the automatic choice for a given role, it's going to take a nerf. In this case, it was bringing the uptime down.

Paramedicus

@Nightingale707
ok, now im wondering then what is uptime for bosses without immunity phases

@stileanima
on another note, what is name of that addon on left from your health-bar (and what does it do?)

starkerealm

On paper, up time can't exceed 62.5% anyway. (Though, you'll probably never see that outside of a specific demo test.)

In practice? Even for 5% group damage, I'm underwhelmed. (And, to be clear, +5% group damage is nice, but it's a very high maintenance set.)

Again, I see a point in a hyperfocused score attack run, but outside of that, I'm still thinking, "stick a set in a storage chest and forget it exists unless you want to practice with it."

techprince

starkerealm wrote: »

show previous quotes

techprince wrote: »

I don't know why they changed the 75% stamina requirement to 50%. 75% was much more better.

That's why they changed it. They were toning the set down.

As a general philosophy, when any set becomes the automatic choice for a given role, it's going to take a nerf. In this case, it was bringing the uptime down.

Thats not toning the set down, thats making the condition more difficult to reach. Tonning would be to reduce the damage amp it provides. It already has a high cooldown. Zens Redress has 100% uptime with easy conditions. There was no reason to make stamina requirement that low.

starkerealm

techprince wrote: »

show previous quotes

starkerealm wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

I don't know why they changed the 75% stamina requirement to 50%. 75% was much more better.

That's why they changed it. They were toning the set down.

As a general philosophy, when any set becomes the automatic choice for a given role, it's going to take a nerf. In this case, it was bringing the uptime down.

Thats not toning the set down, thats making the condition more difficult to reach. Tonning would be to reduce the damage amp it provides. It already has a high cooldown. Zens Redress has 100% uptime with easy conditions. There was no reason to make stamina requirement that low.

That is, still, turning it down. It's not going to reduce the damage, but will make the set less of a no-brainer inclusion, because it raises the skill floor on the set.

If you're saying that's the wrong way to nerf a set, I don't disagree. Usually the focus is on bringing down the ceiling, which this doesn't do, it just increases the bar for entry.