Crusher Enchantment
madman65
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I`ve got a Crusher Enchantment on an axe, was wondering were to put it. Which bar, main hand or off hand? Stam Dk.
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Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It entirely depends on what kind of content are you planning to do. But a simple rule of thumb is that unless you are a PvE tank you should not be slotting crusher at all.6 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
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This.It entirely depends on what kind of content are you planning to do. But a simple rule of thumb is that unless you are a PvE tank you should not be slotting crusher at all.
Crusher enchant is for tanks, and it goes on an infused destro staff (usually lightning, sometimes ice), not a melee weapon.
For PvE tanking, on the 1h+shield frontbar you should put a weakening enchantment instead.1 -
madman65✭✭✭✭What I`m after is, I want to lower the penetration of the target to kind of help in a way to raise mine. If you get what I`m trying for. It`s kind of raising my penetration.0
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Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
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In group content, it's the tank's job to handle that.What I`m after is, I want to lower the penetration of the target to kind of help in a way to raise mine. If you get what I`m trying for. It`s kind of raising my penetration.
Crusher enchants don't stack, so the damage dealers should not use one (they would have no effect).
And for soloing PvE content, penetration is not the most important factor; it's much more important to build for sustain and survivability, than to worry about a few % more damage done through extra penetration (or debuffing the target).0 -
madman65✭✭✭✭I understand about a group type build, what I am doing now is trying to solo and needing guidance to place this choice. So I still would like to use this and still needing the placement, Thanks for the help.0
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Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
✭For solo play, you would be much better off using a weapon damage enchant instead.
Remember that most healing abilities also scale off of weapon/spell damage...
Edit: also, in a solo situation, the extra damage output gained by using a wpn damage enchant is a lot more than the boost to the target's damage taken by using a crusher enchant...Edited by Major_Lag on November 11, 2019 9:44PM0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Major_Lag @Royaji
Is everybody absolutely certain on a Solo build using two 2h (or bows, staves) that Infused Crushing on Bar 1 and Infused/Nirnhoned/Sharpened Berserker on Bar 2 in no circumstances would outperform having a Poison or other Enchant on Bar 1?
Edited by Urzigurumash on November 11, 2019 11:46PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »Is everybody absolutely certain on a Solo build using two 2h (or bow, staves) that Infused Crushing on Bar 1 and Infused/Nirnhoned/Sharpened Berserker on Bar 2 in no circumstances would outperform having a Poison or other Enchant on Bar 1?
No. Just based on simple math for a solo build having sharpened front bar will provide more penetration than infused crusher. With extra damage/sustain from a different enchant/poison on top.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
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No. Just based on simple math for a solo build having sharpened front bar will provide more penetration than infused crusher. With extra damage/sustain from a different enchant/poison on top.
Say this Bar 1 only had Hail / Blockade / Stampede and no other offensive skills. Still better off running a poison or Oblivion / Elemental glyph?
Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »
Say this Bar 1 only had Hail / Blockade / Stampede and no other offensive skills. Still better off running a poison or Oblivion / Elemental glyph?
This bar is the one where you will run your infused berserker.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
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This bar is the one where you will run your infused berserker.
But you could run Infused Berserker and Infused Crushing, you could proc Berserker with Hail and Crushing with Stampede, or something like that.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Royaji✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »
But you could run Infused Berserker and Infused Crushing, you could proc Berserker with Hail and Crushing with Stampede, or something like that.
Again, sharpened weapon with any kind of damage glyph will give you more penetration and more damage than infused weapon with crusher.
Crusher is valuable for groups since it reduces target's resistances for your group members as well. That's why tanks run it. But for solo it does not matter.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Again, sharpened weapon with any kind of damage glyph will give you more penetration and more damage than infused weapon with crusher.
Crusher is valuable for groups since it reduces target's resistances for your group members as well. That's why tanks run it. But for solo it does not matter.
Group content and tanks are irrelevant. I'm asking if it could possibly buff the damage output of a solo build more than not having it. I trust that you're right but I have a nagging suspicion there are unusual circumstances where it would be optimal.
Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
MiguZ✭✭✭Lets get the iron bar and bend it shall we? Sharp 2h gives you 2752 penetration. Infused crusher gives you 2100 odd if memory serves. So Sharp gives you a good amount more penetration yes? Agreed? Good. On top of the extra penetration you get AN EXTRA GLYPH on the weapon! WOWZERZ! Even more damage! Agreed? Good. So no matter how you think about it there is no situations, ever, where having a crusher would beat other options in solo situation. Case closed.
PS. Also would like to point out that sharpened increases your damage which increases your AoE damage, where as crusher affects exactly one enemy that you apply it to, since it is a debuff on the enemy. Solo crusher is simply a bad option.Edited by MiguZ on November 12, 2019 2:27AM5 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lets get the iron bar and bend it shall we? Sharp 2h gives you 2752 penetration. Infused crusher gives you 2100 odd if memory serves. So Sharp gives you a good amount more penetration yes? Agreed? Good. On top of the extra penetration you get AN EXTRA GLYPH on the weapon! WOWZERZ! Even more damage! Agreed? Good. So no matter how you think about it there is no situations, ever, where having a crusher would beat other options in solo situation. Case closed.
PS. Also would like to point out that sharpened increases your damage which increases your AoE damage, where as crusher affects exactly one enemy that you apply it to, since it is a debuff on the enemy. Solo crusher is simply a bad option.
Pretty much this.
For crusher to start to pull ahead, you need more than one person hitting the "crushed" target to take advantage of the debuff. If it's just you, sharpened will be better every time. Once you add more damage dealers to the equation, crusher starts to make sense, but since you slot it at the expense of personal damage sources, the job typically goes to the tank who cares little about personal damage output.1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭At 6k weapon damage and 30k stam with 0 other pen, how much does Sharpened increase the damage of ticks of Endless Hail? I ask earnestly, build editor is not working to show me any increase. The Sharpened trait only applies to skills cast from that bar. All damage glyphs and poisons are single target.
Edited by Urzigurumash on November 12, 2019 2:48AMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »At 6k weapon damage and 30k stam with 0 other pen, how much does Sharpened increase the damage of ticks of Endless Hail? I ask earnestly, build editor is not working to show me any increase. The Sharpened trait only applies to skills cast from that bar. All damage glyphs and poisons are single target.
Sharpened will apply to all damage while you are on that bar. If you cast endless hail on your back bar, then swap to sharpened on the front, all those ticks while on your front bar take advantage of the benefit of sharpened.0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Correct, and by how much will sharpened improve those ticks?
How much will sharpening my bow bar buff a Leap on my 2-handed bar?
Edited by Urzigurumash on November 12, 2019 2:54AMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭That Sharpened is stronger than Crushing is completely irrelevant.
The only relevant question in my view is whether Infused Crushing Backbar + Nirnhoned/Infused/Sharpened Berserker Frontbar is universally outperformed by Infused Berserker Backbar + Nirnhoned/Infused/Sharpened Oblivion Glyph/Damage Health Poison Frontbar.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
redspecter23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »That Sharpened is stronger than Crushing is completely irrelevant.
The only relevant question in my view is whether Infused Crushing Backbar + Nirnhoned/Infused/Sharpened Berserker Frontbar is universally outperformed by Infused Berserker Backbar + Nirnhoned/Infused/Sharpened Oblivion Glyph/Damage Health Poison Frontbar.
You would then be comparing crusher on that bar to your other options for that bar. I'd take a look at weapon damage compared to crusher as that's probably the closest glyph for an easy comparison. A typical setup on the back bar would use either wall of elements or endless hail on an infused weapon with weapon damage enchant to maximize your damage. This has the added benefit of applying the bonus to all of the enemies you are attacking, while crusher will only affect one at a time.
Out of curiosity, what sort of situation are we creating this build for? OP suggested that it was a solo only situation. Are we talking hypotheticals or something like maelstrom arena or just overland world bosses? I suspect we could nail down the best combination based on the situation.
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Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Clearly I am aware of everything in your first paragraph, hence I ask:
Is Infused Crushing Backbar + Nirnhoned/Infused/Sharpened Berserker Frontbar universally outperformed by Infused Berserker Backbar + Nirnhoned/Infused/Sharpened Oblivion Glyph/Damage Health Poison Frontbar?
I suspect the answer is yes, but Build Editor isn't quite working for me at the moment. My very quick calculator math based on casting Endless Hail on my backbar and then spamming Wrecking Blow on my frontbar says the second setup will give me roughly 1k more DPS than the first.
I only ask this question to expand on @Major_Lag 's statement: "For solo play, you would be much better off using a weapon damage enchant instead."
Edited by Urzigurumash on November 12, 2019 3:26AMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭My idea for a test subject would be 500 point Balorgh + New Moon + Clever Alchemist bow bar, 1 line weapon damage or 1 line penetration 2h bar.
Orc, Warrior Sign, 7 medium, all max Stam body glyphs, infused jewels with Weapon Damage gylphs, 64 points in Stam, No CP. Swap Orc for Bosmer after Roll Dodge and/or swap Warrior for Lover, retest
Cast Endless Hail on backbar, swap to frontbar for straight Wrecking Blow spam
There would be a small difference between classes, so let's say a Warden with 0 animal companion abilities slottedXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you can think of a better test subject let me know. I say No CP just for simplicity, maybe it's best to test with No CP and again with standard Stam DD CP spreadXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭@MiguZ why don't you make yourself useful and load up PTS and CMX and input my test variables there and post the results. I don't have these things, and clearly this question has you ebullient with the will to prove I was stupid for askingXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭@MiguZ or are you still too busy trying to grind to level 15 to unlock bar swap?Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
OG_Kaveman✭✭✭✭✭Urzigurumash wrote: »@MiguZ or are you still too busy trying to grind to level 15 to unlock bar swap?
Bumping threads is against forum rules, pretty sure harassment is too0 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭OG_Kaveman wrote: »Bumping threads is against forum rules, pretty sure harassment is too
You are right, I apologize to @MiguZ for this, and I appreciate their input.
Clearly I am not a DPS scientist by any stretch but this question I have might be distilled to: is it possible to do 500k damage in 10 seconds without raid buffs/debuffs and without bonus execute damage? If it is possible, it may be possible that even on a high health target, 10 seconds of Crushing uptime and 10 seconds of Berseker uptime or 5 seconds of Berserker uptime on a Nirnhoned/Sharpened weapon can outpace 10 seconds of Berserker uptime and 2 procs of a Oblivion/Elemental Damage Gylph on a Nirnhoned/Sharpened weapon, no? Poisons being difficult to quantify on paper. This is something I had recently contemplated, so this seemed an appropriate place to ask those who appeared to have a definitive answer supporting their posts in this thread.
If I had the skill or knowledge to do 50k non-raid-buffed parses I wouldn't need to ask of course.
My suspicion about Crushing sometimes being optimal is less about standard DD builds and more about unusual builds with all offensive output loaded into a few extremely high tooltip but seldomly cast skills: a high crit damage build who intends to put all of their offense into their ultimates, or something like that. To be clear, a build where the backbar is only for buffs/debuffs, where the Sharpened trait is not useful and would not substantially increase damage. I would be surprised if Sharpened ticks of Endless Hail would provide more damage output than adding Crushing to frontbar skills.
Edited by Urzigurumash on November 12, 2019 11:50AMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0