Why I suspect some of the ESO quest writers are liars as people

Petoften

I find that people often tend to project. Thieves tend to think everyone steals.

I've found at least three quests in ESO which REQUIRE having your char lie to complete them. The casualness with which they make lying a required, easy act suggests they see no issue with it.

Who could complain? Everyone lies, right?

Might seem like an odd thing as an issue for a game with so much murder, betrayal, torture, necromancy, but it's not. They do seem to have some sense of morality around murder even of the guilty; note how many quests include options for choosing whether someone is executed or not. They care about that choice, and write options around it.

But lying? No. you will, lie, period, if you want to complete quests. Who cares about lying?

That's what it suggests to me: that they don't. That it's a non-issue. Which says something about who they are.

I can't finish major quest lines because I choose for my char to not lie, and I find that poor quest writing, and suspect it says something about the quest writers. I like that they give options for executing people, allowing for some flexibility for chars. They provide options around stealing, at least usually, as well. They don't for lying on some quests.

If it softens the blow, ESO isn't the only RPG with this issue. Some RPG's seem to equate a 'speech' skill with a 'lie' skill. They don't do the skill as I'd like - persuasive skill - but simply as creating options for lying in dialogue options. Same issue with those devs.

It's one thing for speech skill to add an option for 'explain to the enemy why combat isn't in their interest'.

It's another for it to add an option for '[lie] Tell them you won't execute them if they surrender'.

I find it a quality issue.

The same as if they had your char forced to do any number of evil actions, forcing that on the char to complete quests. And suspect why this is a blind spot for them.

Would they have the main quest require you to sacrifice an innocent child? Probably not, because they understand people don't want their chars to do that. Even it were an option.

But forcing the char to lie? They don't seem to have any concern about it. Quality issue, just as it would be if other choices were overly forced.

The first time I encountered this - preventing me from progressing the quest line with Razam-Dar (sp?) - was bad enough. That's one too many. I like that quest line otherwise.

The third quest I ran into it, tonight, it's a pattern. How many quest lines am I going to have to abort because they don't care about the issue?

One thing I can almost guarantee:

People who share the writers' lack of concern about lying disagreeing. I don't mind there being options to lie for those people. They don't care if there are no options not to.

I don't mind if not lying has a price, as it often does in real life. Requiring a loss, or additional combat, or a more difficult quest. But they just can't be bothered to care and offer the option at all, leaving no way to do the quest but to lie.

I understand I might be in a minority. That doesn't change the issue, any more than for any other 'required bad behavior' for quest writing.

It leaves it a worse game, for some players, just as it would if they were more limited on other choices.

In a way it's sort of the opposite of the choice the writers of "Quest for Glory" made. In that game, if players did the 'right thing' consistently, they were rewarded with the availability of a 'Paladin' class with bonuses. I'm not asking for that - but just to be able to finish quests without lying. Just as people would ask to not have to sacrifice a child to complete quests.

It's analogous to players who like to have a 'no-kill' way to complete even a first-person shooter, like Deus Ex; I'm not expecting a non-violent option for a game where combat is as central as ESO. But options to avoid some killing, to avoid lying, and other behaviors, are reasonable as options to quest.

It's bad enough when [removed bashing comment] quest writers force players to 'pick the person to kill' as sort of manufactured drama. That's gratuitous, but this goes beyond that, to simply not caring about the issue of lying.

Ysbriel

Well by know anybody who has played previous TES games and read the lore should realize that Tamriel is a sick savage world to live in

preevious

I think I can understand what you feel, and I'm sorry for you.

However, there's one thing to keep in mind at all time :

In a video game, you'll never, ever have true perfect player agency

It's just impossible. For each player like you who wish they could never lie, there are players who wish they could always lie.

In the end, my advice would be to play those quest anyway, and imagine a new narrative yourself. Don't stay behind instead of using a little imagination. I did a few times, when the end of a quest did not "feel right".

jircris11

[removed quote]

Get persuasive passive

spartaxoxo

Some quests do give you an option not to lie. Some quests even present whether or not to lie as a moral dilemma, or present liars as terrible people. Others treat it as just a necessary thing.

For example, one quest shows a dark elf noble who lied to his maid that he loved her for sport. He's treated as a cruel and terrible person, even as a ghost. And your vestige is given 3 choices on how to handle it.

Nemesis7884

agency and choice is just not something you can truly implement in a shared world multiplayer game...

play outer worlds, you get a lot of both there and its a great game!

Neoealth

M'aiq the Liar said he read your whole post with great interest.

FierceSam

I haven’t had a serious issue with this. I have had very occasional issues where both (and there are rarely more than 2) choices are unpalatable.

I think the issue I find more annoying is that there are rarely more than 2 choices (cos, more work per choice obvs) and that very often these choices all lead you to the same place. And even if you make really serious red choices, there’s not really any significant permanent change.

Despite my best efforts I have been unable to aid Molag Bal, maintain the status quo in Orsinium, jail those filthy Thieves and Assassins, serve the best interests of Clavicus Vile and Maphala, bring down Clockwork City, drown the Argonians in their own filth, or help dragons slay cats.

rpa

I enjoy playing an evil butthole character but I'd like to have a choice which makes being an opportunist thief and part time serial murderer actually mean something. Choices with consequences other than few lines of dialog are lacking in MMO genre. Except when it is a bug preventing one to get some achievement...

And no, the "choice" of which NPC to sacrifice again to finish the quest does not cut it, at least when used half dozen times in same game. (But I admit the one where you could con an enemy prisoner to die instead of the friendly volunteer is pretty good.)

idk

LOL. What a stretch to suggest people who have to creatively write for a fantasy game are reflected by the quests they write.

We are not talking about writers creating books for the nefarious purpose of having them published. These are people who just work for a company who are doing the job they are asked to.

Since OP chooses to write about a paranoia of quest where one must lie (unless they have the persuasive passive) and the writers who wrote those quests, what does that say about them?

Edit: in the end I do not think OP understands creative writing or even watches much TV or movies. I seriously doubt those who right stories (books, movies, TV) that have a serial killer or megalomaniacs attempting to take over the world at all costs are reflected in their work. It merely boils down to they are creative writers.

Kel

rpa wrote: »

I enjoy playing an evil butthole character but I'd like to have a choice which makes being an opportunist thief and part time serial murderer actually mean something. Choices with consequences other than few lines of dialog are lacking in MMO genre. Except when it is a bug preventing one to get some achievement...

And no, the "choice" of which NPC to sacrifice again to finish the quest does not cut it, at least when used half dozen times in same game. (But I admit the one where you could con an enemy prisoner to die instead of the friendly volunteer is pretty good.)

Pretty much this.

The idea that everyone wants to play the shining knight do-gooder, in a role playing game is false, and goes to show a narrow, myopic view.

I suppose you think all actors who play evil roles in movies or theater to be harboring murderous intent, or are adulterers because they play one on T.V.?

I have a templar who I play as the saint, and all his quest choices reflect that. On my necromancer, however, I played him the opposite, and made all the murderous, lying, evil choices the game allowed for. Does that somehow make me project something in my real life? And how and why do you somehow get to decide my moral aptitude in real life by my gameplay choices? What one do you even choose, the saint playthrough or the dark playthrough?

I think you take this game far too seriously.

LuxLunae

[removed quote]

You would lie to save your life...
Everybody lies.

spartaxoxo

LuxLunae wrote: »

You would lie to save your life...
Everybody lies.

Also not all lies are equal. ESO does try to differentiate between lies told for a greater good and lies that are just cruel...

stewhead2ub17_ESO

smh OP's assertion...stop the madness. Please.

BomblePants

Interesting... I would have liked some wider or different choices at certain points of the game but I guess it is only a game with limits...

rpa

To add, I don't agree the moral position that the end justify the means. Someone who lies, steals and murders for "the good" simply is a liar, thief and a murderer in denial. My characters are not good but they do not lie to themselves. :

Zacuel

Somebody somewhere is bothered by something.

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

Rykoth

"I don't like a game feature so I'm going to make personal attacks on the quality of character of the devs."

That's what this is and it's gross.

Everstorm

Rykoth wrote: »

"I don't like a game feature so I'm going to make personal attacks on the quality of character of the devs."

That's what this is and it's gross.

I agree that the assumptions about the morals of the writers are very questionable. But I do agree that the amount of real choices in this game is very, very limited. Yes, it's an MMO which makes this very complicated but SWOTR had some decent fun light/dark choices. Even when they didn't mean much for the world they were at least entertaining.
My main quester is a very troubled individual so I rarely run into the issue the OP is bothered with. But I got annoyed with the Childhood in Flames quest where the girl constantly kept apologising for her murderous plans for revenge. My character is a proud member of the Dark Brotherhood but I never got an option to tel her she has every right to just kill the sob already.

VaranisArano

ESO fits very well into the greater list of TES games in this regard: its hard to roleplay your hero as a pure goody-two-shoes.

Daggerfall has lies and courtly intrigue a plenty, including (non-optional) stealing a painting and helping out good old King of Worms Mannimarco for the Main Quest.

The Nerevarine has to (non-optionally) steal some dead guy's skull for a known necromancer to get info early in the main quest, to say nothing of the straight-up murders that the Hortator quests can turn into. (I don't think its really morally self-defense when you taunt people into attacking you...)

The Hero of Kvatch has to deal with daedra to get the artifact needed to stop the Oblivion Crisis.

The Dragonborn gets into the breaking-and-entering and lying during the Main Quest for the infiltration of the Thalmor Embassy.


The Elder Scrolls games are not exactly well-suited to the moral purists among us, even when you purely look at the Main Questlines.

So I find it much, much more likely that the Devs know which genre they are writing quests for and chose to write in a way appropriate for the Elder Scrolls series. Which, as noted, generally doesn't hold back on the moral dilemmas.

If that's not your cup of tea, that okay. Just...be aware that the whole series of games is like that, and you might want to try a different brand of tea.

Tyrion87

First world problems...

ZOS_JesC

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