Detection potion - Let us die for our mistakes

Lybal

I'd like to talk about detection potion and the big issue that there is absolutely no indicator for it, which makes them very hard to deal with compare to other stuff made to counter Cloak
Other counters got plenty of indicators : When someone use Mark, there is an animation, a debuff, a sound. When someone use Camel or Magelight, there is an animation when the guy use it, there is an animation when it breaks Cloak. When someone use a Ground AOE, there is a red circle, an animation. I can see what broke Cloak clearly and I can take decisions in consequence.
When someone use a detect pot, there is nothing.

Here's a non-exhaustive list of situations where this lack of indicators is really frustrating :
- In duel, even when you know the guy use a detect pot, you can't know when the pot is still up after he used it, you have to guess it, same for the cooldown of the pot, leading to few wasted GCD when he uses it that can easily put me on the defensive for a moment.
- When you're fighting multiple opponents with a lot of AOE / tools to break Cloak, it can be very hard to know if that's some random AOE which touched at max range like Breath from a player or a pot.
- If the guy use a detect pot and breaks cloak with an AOE, I can't know if the guy guessed my position well or if he knew where I was due to the pot.
And all these situations can lead to me spamming / using Cloak once because I thought it wasn't a pot, and this either kill me or put me on the defensive, and I can't do anything agaisnt that.

Right now, the best option I've found is to try to retain the name of all players that I'm sure used detect pots, so when I face them again, I can take care of that

For people that absolutely don't want to see Nb buff in any way because they dislike to fight the class or just legit think that would make Detect Pot too weak. Consider that these change could come with a buff for detect pots, that could be totally fair imo since you sacrifice a buff on your pot and it only reveals the Nb to the user, it could be a longer duration, a longer range, better pots with new mats (for stam especially), or something else. Now decide if that change needs to come with a buff for detect pots is something that could be debate.
Think also about the fact that if everyone can see when a guy uses a detect pot, his allies could preserve their own detect pots, some coordinate players could even rotate detects pots to get some Nbs uncloak as much as possible.

I just want to die because of my mistakes, not because I took a decision that would have been a good one but it isn't because the game don't give me information.
I don't ask for anything crazy, I think that get an indicator to face a mechanic is something that should be basic.

Also, I know that in Wolfhunter patch, they mentioned this problem (#10 comment, General) : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/430154/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-1-5-wolfhunter-update-19#latest

A visual effect will now appear over your character’s head when using Detection Potions, Magelight, or Expert Hunter to notify other players of your ability to see sneaking/invisible enemies.

English is not my native language, but I'm pretty sure that it means that the eye you got when you use a detect pot was intended to appear for all players, if that's the case, they failed and it should be corrected.

Ragnarock41

We could always give cloak the wings treatment so that its more fair for both parts involved

Emma_Overload

Quit skulking around, and this won't be a problem!

DukeDiewalker

As somone not playing stealth (I even use Dark Cloak on my stamblade), I have to agree with this. Detect pots are an important counter to the stealth mechanic but it makes absolutely no sense that someone in stealth is not notified if a detect potion is used.
Why is there not that Eye symbole above the head like it is shown if you use it yourself?

ThePedge

Yup. Cloak is NBs primary defense, even midfight.

You can see players AoEs, Magelight, Flare. But you can't see Detect Pots being activated.

100% needs a visible cue, like the Immovable Pot has its swirly thing around the feet.

A red eye, or the detect radius like on NPCs in Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood missions.

ketsparrowhawk

As much as cloaking spamming NB's annoy me, I 100% agree. It is not fair that you have no indication that your primary defense is being completely negated.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

As much as my big clunky Magplar main -who needs to use like 7 abilities to stand a chance against the pew pew insta-death of a well played cloaked Stamblade - would love to disagree, he can’t.

Good argument.

I award you one internet point.

Rahar

I and a lot of other players have been saying this for a long time.

Detect pots are fine. A lack of indicators isn't.

My ideal detect pot would be one that you can see a red eye and a moving AoE around the player that used it clearly, much like the way revealing flare is now. If we really must buff detect pots to compensate for something that should have been in the game to begin with (and actually is in the game, if you look at some PvE bosses), I would advocate for anything but extending the duration or adding more range. A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

Without posting any sweeping generalizations to the kind of people that don't think detect pots are enough, magblade has fallen behind nowadays because cloak just doesn't work in some instances. That's completely unique to most class mechanics -- because none of them can be countered with something everyone can access for little cost -- and completely crippling.

BNOC

Should add detected as a debuff and put it on your debuffs bar so you can try keep track of it.

Anyone that uses a detect pot to find you, has gimped themselves to counter 1 thing.

Even then, detect pots are pretty bad, it's easy to see you can't get into cloak, get out of range and then cloak again, never to be found again.

There definitely shouldn't be any indicator on the player that used it, only one on your debuff bar to let you know someone can see you. You shouldn't have knowledge of who's used what and when, that would be ridiculous.

Rahar wrote: »

A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

Maybe zerglings, we shouldn't be balancing things around how effective something is against a bad player.

NeillMcAttack

Yea, it should be the same as the AOE around the NPC’s with the lamps I suppose, for consistency. And also add it to evil hunter and mage light!

Lybal

Rahar wrote: »

I and a lot of other players have been saying this for a long time.

Detect pots are fine. A lack of indicators isn't.

My ideal detect pot would be one that you can see a red eye and a moving AoE around the player that used it clearly, much like the way revealing flare is now. If we really must buff detect pots to compensate for something that should have been in the game to begin with (and actually is in the game, if you look at some PvE bosses), I would advocate for anything but extending the duration or adding more range. A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

Without posting any sweeping generalizations to the kind of people that don't think detect pots are enough, magblade has fallen behind nowadays because cloak just doesn't work in some instances. That's completely unique to most class mechanics -- because none of them can be countered with something everyone can access for little cost -- and completely crippling.

I also think that there's no need to buff in compensation for something that should be already there to begin with. But that's just my opinion, some can think that detect pots are already weak and could bring good arguments for that so I put the subject.

However, I don't think there's the need to debate for a lack of indicators, that is really something that everyone can agree on.

BNOC wrote: »

Should add detected as a debuff and put it on your debuffs bar so you can try keep track of it.

Anyone that uses a detect pot to find you, has gimped themselves to counter 1 thing.

Even then, detect pots are pretty bad, it's easy to see you can't get into cloak, get out of range and then cloak again, never to be found again.

There definitely shouldn't be any indicator on the player that used it, only one on your debuff bar to let you know someone can see you. You shouldn't have knowledge of who's used what and when, that would be ridiculous.

Rahar wrote: »

A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

Maybe zerglings, we shouldn't be balancing things around how effective something is against a bad player.

I'd tell that their efficiency is contextual, some builds make a better use of it, it's really hard to get enough distance against a MagSorc with Streak for example, especially if you play without Shade, they're also less effective when the Nb got a place where it's easy to LoS and vice-versa with open field, etc.

But I don't see why you think that it would be ridiculous if you could know which guy used the detect pot ? You can also know which guy use Magelight or Camo Hunter looking at the visual effect on them, is that so strong for you ?

BNOC

Lybal wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

I and a lot of other players have been saying this for a long time.

Detect pots are fine. A lack of indicators isn't.

My ideal detect pot would be one that you can see a red eye and a moving AoE around the player that used it clearly, much like the way revealing flare is now. If we really must buff detect pots to compensate for something that should have been in the game to begin with (and actually is in the game, if you look at some PvE bosses), I would advocate for anything but extending the duration or adding more range. A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

Without posting any sweeping generalizations to the kind of people that don't think detect pots are enough, magblade has fallen behind nowadays because cloak just doesn't work in some instances. That's completely unique to most class mechanics -- because none of them can be countered with something everyone can access for little cost -- and completely crippling.

I also think that there's no need to buff in compensation for something that should be already there to begin with. But that's just my opinion, some can think that detect pots are already weak and could bring good arguments for that so I put the subject.

However, I don't think there's the need to debate for a lack of indicators, that is really something that everyone can agree on.

BNOC wrote: »

Should add detected as a debuff and put it on your debuffs bar so you can try keep track of it.

Anyone that uses a detect pot to find you, has gimped themselves to counter 1 thing.

Even then, detect pots are pretty bad, it's easy to see you can't get into cloak, get out of range and then cloak again, never to be found again.

There definitely shouldn't be any indicator on the player that used it, only one on your debuff bar to let you know someone can see you. You shouldn't have knowledge of who's used what and when, that would be ridiculous.

Rahar wrote: »

A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

Maybe zerglings, we shouldn't be balancing things around how effective something is against a bad player.

I'd tell that their efficiency is contextual, some builds make a better use of it, it's really hard to get enough distance against a MagSorc with Streak for example, especially if you play without Shade, they're also less effective when the Nb got a place where it's easy to LoS and vice-versa with open field, etc.

But I don't see why you think that it would be ridiculous if you could know which guy used the detect pot ? You can also know which guy use Magelight or Camo Hunter looking at the visual effect on them, is that so strong for you ?

I agree it's contextual but I'd say that potions are ineffective at a much higher percentage than they are effective, which is amplified if you play with shade.

I haven't seen magelight in about 2 years because it's so useless and so obvious, at least not from a good player - When was the last time you were pulled out with Mage Light by anyone not in a 412 man group? Probably a long long time ago, because you can see it to avoid it coupled with the fact it's pretty pants to begin with.

There's no reason for NB's to have a definitive indicator of who to avoid, otherwise, like magelight and the rest, they'll become unused and useless in the rare case scenario they are currently beneficial - Having a debuff that lets you know someone can see you and you can't cloak right now should be enough. Whether that's a debuff bar debuff or just visualised on your head doesn't matter but it should not be on the user.

Rahar

BNOC wrote: »

Should add detected as a debuff and put it on your debuffs bar so you can try keep track of it.

Anyone that uses a detect pot to find you, has gimped themselves to counter 1 thing.

Even then, detect pots are pretty bad, it's easy to see you can't get into cloak, get out of range and then cloak again, never to be found again.

There definitely shouldn't be any indicator on the player that used it, only one on your debuff bar to let you know someone can see you. You shouldn't have knowledge of who's used what and when, that would be ridiculous.

Rahar wrote: »

A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

Maybe zerglings, we shouldn't be balancing things around how effective something is against a bad player.

These are the kinds of sweeping generalizations I wanted to avoid. "We can't balance around bad players" is not a point that can be backed up with succinct evidence. Who's to say how good that one nightblade player that got caught out with a detect pot is? Getting caught with a pot doesn't instantly make him bad. It's just too much of a quick judgement, and one used way too often. Some of the best nightblade players get caught with it all the time, but I'm not sure if I should name them here due to forum rules.

Ignoring such a short-sighted point like the above, using a pot to fit the situation is in no way hindering yourself -- and if it somehow does, it's not in any meaningful way. You may lose a 20% weapon/spell power buff, but you're gambling that on a 15 second window to kill the nightblade. The idea is to use it wisely.

BNOC wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

I and a lot of other players have been saying this for a long time.

Detect pots are fine. A lack of indicators isn't.

My ideal detect pot would be one that you can see a red eye and a moving AoE around the player that used it clearly, much like the way revealing flare is now. If we really must buff detect pots to compensate for something that should have been in the game to begin with (and actually is in the game, if you look at some PvE bosses), I would advocate for anything but extending the duration or adding more range. A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

Without posting any sweeping generalizations to the kind of people that don't think detect pots are enough, magblade has fallen behind nowadays because cloak just doesn't work in some instances. That's completely unique to most class mechanics -- because none of them can be countered with something everyone can access for little cost -- and completely crippling.

I also think that there's no need to buff in compensation for something that should be already there to begin with. But that's just my opinion, some can think that detect pots are already weak and could bring good arguments for that so I put the subject.

However, I don't think there's the need to debate for a lack of indicators, that is really something that everyone can agree on.

BNOC wrote: »

Should add detected as a debuff and put it on your debuffs bar so you can try keep track of it.

Anyone that uses a detect pot to find you, has gimped themselves to counter 1 thing.

Even then, detect pots are pretty bad, it's easy to see you can't get into cloak, get out of range and then cloak again, never to be found again.

There definitely shouldn't be any indicator on the player that used it, only one on your debuff bar to let you know someone can see you. You shouldn't have knowledge of who's used what and when, that would be ridiculous.

Rahar wrote: »

A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

Maybe zerglings, we shouldn't be balancing things around how effective something is against a bad player.

I'd tell that their efficiency is contextual, some builds make a better use of it, it's really hard to get enough distance against a MagSorc with Streak for example, especially if you play without Shade, they're also less effective when the Nb got a place where it's easy to LoS and vice-versa with open field, etc.

But I don't see why you think that it would be ridiculous if you could know which guy used the detect pot ? You can also know which guy use Magelight or Camo Hunter looking at the visual effect on them, is that so strong for you ?

I agree it's contextual but I'd say that potions are ineffective at a much higher percentage than they are effective, which is amplified if you play with shade.

I haven't seen magelight in about 2 years because it's so useless and so obvious, at least not from a good player - When was the last time you were pulled out with Mage Light by anyone not in a 412 man group? Probably a long long time ago, because you can see it to avoid it coupled with the fact it's pretty pants to begin with.

There's no reason for NB's to have a definitive indicator of who to avoid, otherwise, like magelight and the rest, they'll become unused and useless in the rare case scenario they are currently beneficial - Having a debuff that lets you know someone can see you and you can't cloak right now should be enough. Whether that's a debuff bar debuff or just visualised on your head doesn't matter but it should not be on the user.

This is not an appropriate argument to use to remove overhead indicators because you're misplacing the actual cause of the problem on the indicators, not the poorly performing abilities themselves. However, it is a good argument for buffing on-bar stealth detect abilities, which needs to happen anyway. Everything that counters stealth should have some kind of indicator because consistency is extremely important to skillful play; and in the rest of the game outside of detect pots, there is an indicator of some kind. Even when you drink a pot, there's an indicator on your head. It's abundantly clear that there should be one given the context of the rest of the game.

Additionally, I feel as though a subjective "it doesn't work for me" doesn't hold much water in general when referring to detect pots. I could say that it does work for me 80-90% of the time (and it typically does), but that doesn't mean anything. You'll still think I'm wrong. What does prove that something needs to be done is that it's done a different way in every other place in the game... and even on your own screen. I don't know how anyone could ignore this.

EDIT: Made a few points clearer.

kalunte

should have been fixed just like you quoted it. it just doesnt work.

since ZoS have delayed their next upgrading patch with new content and so on for the first quarter of 2020 to fix as many bugs/features as possible. they could, i mean, it is somehow likely, have a look at this feature ^^

BNOC

Rahar wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

Should add detected as a debuff and put it on your debuffs bar so you can try keep track of it.

Anyone that uses a detect pot to find you, has gimped themselves to counter 1 thing.

Even then, detect pots are pretty bad, it's easy to see you can't get into cloak, get out of range and then cloak again, never to be found again.

There definitely shouldn't be any indicator on the player that used it, only one on your debuff bar to let you know someone can see you. You shouldn't have knowledge of who's used what and when, that would be ridiculous.

Rahar wrote: »

A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

Maybe zerglings, we shouldn't be balancing things around how effective something is against a bad player.

These are the kinds of sweeping generalizations I wanted to avoid. "We can't balance around bad players" is not a point that can be backed up with succinct evidence. Who's to say how good that one nightblade player that got caught out with a detect pot is? Getting caught with a pot doesn't instantly make him bad. It's just too much of a quick judgement, and one used way too often. Some of the best nightblade players get caught with it all the time, but I'm not sure if I should name them here due to forum rules.

Ignoring such a short-sighted point like the above, using a pot to fit the situation is in no way hindering yourself -- and if it somehow does, it's not in any meaningful way. You may lose a 20% weapon/spell power buff, but you're gambling that on a 15 second window to kill the nightblade. The idea is to use it wisely.

BNOC wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

I and a lot of other players have been saying this for a long time.

Detect pots are fine. A lack of indicators isn't.

My ideal detect pot would be one that you can see a red eye and a moving AoE around the player that used it clearly, much like the way revealing flare is now. If we really must buff detect pots to compensate for something that should have been in the game to begin with (and actually is in the game, if you look at some PvE bosses), I would advocate for anything but extending the duration or adding more range. A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

Without posting any sweeping generalizations to the kind of people that don't think detect pots are enough, magblade has fallen behind nowadays because cloak just doesn't work in some instances. That's completely unique to most class mechanics -- because none of them can be countered with something everyone can access for little cost -- and completely crippling.

I also think that there's no need to buff in compensation for something that should be already there to begin with. But that's just my opinion, some can think that detect pots are already weak and could bring good arguments for that so I put the subject.

However, I don't think there's the need to debate for a lack of indicators, that is really something that everyone can agree on.

BNOC wrote: »

Should add detected as a debuff and put it on your debuffs bar so you can try keep track of it.

Anyone that uses a detect pot to find you, has gimped themselves to counter 1 thing.

Even then, detect pots are pretty bad, it's easy to see you can't get into cloak, get out of range and then cloak again, never to be found again.

There definitely shouldn't be any indicator on the player that used it, only one on your debuff bar to let you know someone can see you. You shouldn't have knowledge of who's used what and when, that would be ridiculous.

Rahar wrote: »

A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

Maybe zerglings, we shouldn't be balancing things around how effective something is against a bad player.

I'd tell that their efficiency is contextual, some builds make a better use of it, it's really hard to get enough distance against a MagSorc with Streak for example, especially if you play without Shade, they're also less effective when the Nb got a place where it's easy to LoS and vice-versa with open field, etc.

But I don't see why you think that it would be ridiculous if you could know which guy used the detect pot ? You can also know which guy use Magelight or Camo Hunter looking at the visual effect on them, is that so strong for you ?

I agree it's contextual but I'd say that potions are ineffective at a much higher percentage than they are effective, which is amplified if you play with shade.

I haven't seen magelight in about 2 years because it's so useless and so obvious, at least not from a good player - When was the last time you were pulled out with Mage Light by anyone not in a 412 man group? Probably a long long time ago, because you can see it to avoid it coupled with the fact it's pretty pants to begin with.

There's no reason for NB's to have a definitive indicator of who to avoid, otherwise, like magelight and the rest, they'll become unused and useless in the rare case scenario they are currently beneficial - Having a debuff that lets you know someone can see you and you can't cloak right now should be enough. Whether that's a debuff bar debuff or just visualised on your head doesn't matter but it should not be on the user.

This is not an appropriate argument to use to remove overhead indicators because you're misplacing the actual cause of the problem on the indicators, not the poorly performing abilities themselves. However, it is a good argument for buffing on-bar stealth detect abilities, which needs to happen anyway. Everything that counters stealth should have some kind of indicator because consistency is extremely important; and in the rest of the game outside of detect pots, there is an indicator of some kind. Even when you drink a pot, there's an indicator on your head. It's abundantly clear that there should be one given the context of the rest of the game.

Additionally, I feel as though a subjective "it doesn't work for me" doesn't hold much water in general when referring to detect pots. I could say that it does work for me 80-90% of the time, but that doesn't mean anything. You'll still think I'm wrong. What does prove that something needs to be done is that it's done a different way in every other place in the game... and even on your own screen. I don't know how anyone could ignore this.

I never said being caught makes anyone bad, but if they're then dying in that 15 second window, struggling to get into cloak again or turn it into an offence whilst they wait, somethings up.

You are certainly gimping yourself in a meaningful way, it's almost always more beneficial to just wait the nb out, because you know they're coming back and if they don't then that sums them up doesn't it.

I never said it didn't work for me? how often are you killed because someone used a detect pot? The talk on here over the years about cloak and it's counters isn't hearsay, they're terrible and are almost never used because of the fact.

How I can ignore it is simple, we're not talking about PvE and this post is about the one counter that isn't useless (for selfish reasons).

You're asking a counter, to have what would effectively be (to any decent NB) a built in counter to that counter.. Just think about that.

Bottom line is that I don't really care because like i said, it's more beneficial to just wait most of you out then waste a CD but what you're asking for sounds very hand holdy.

Rahar

BNOC wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

Should add detected as a debuff and put it on your debuffs bar so you can try keep track of it.

Anyone that uses a detect pot to find you, has gimped themselves to counter 1 thing.

Even then, detect pots are pretty bad, it's easy to see you can't get into cloak, get out of range and then cloak again, never to be found again.

There definitely shouldn't be any indicator on the player that used it, only one on your debuff bar to let you know someone can see you. You shouldn't have knowledge of who's used what and when, that would be ridiculous.

Rahar wrote: »

A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

Maybe zerglings, we shouldn't be balancing things around how effective something is against a bad player.

These are the kinds of sweeping generalizations I wanted to avoid. "We can't balance around bad players" is not a point that can be backed up with succinct evidence. Who's to say how good that one nightblade player that got caught out with a detect pot is? Getting caught with a pot doesn't instantly make him bad. It's just too much of a quick judgement, and one used way too often. Some of the best nightblade players get caught with it all the time, but I'm not sure if I should name them here due to forum rules.

Ignoring such a short-sighted point like the above, using a pot to fit the situation is in no way hindering yourself -- and if it somehow does, it's not in any meaningful way. You may lose a 20% weapon/spell power buff, but you're gambling that on a 15 second window to kill the nightblade. The idea is to use it wisely.

BNOC wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

I and a lot of other players have been saying this for a long time.

Detect pots are fine. A lack of indicators isn't.

My ideal detect pot would be one that you can see a red eye and a moving AoE around the player that used it clearly, much like the way revealing flare is now. If we really must buff detect pots to compensate for something that should have been in the game to begin with (and actually is in the game, if you look at some PvE bosses), I would advocate for anything but extending the duration or adding more range. A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

Without posting any sweeping generalizations to the kind of people that don't think detect pots are enough, magblade has fallen behind nowadays because cloak just doesn't work in some instances. That's completely unique to most class mechanics -- because none of them can be countered with something everyone can access for little cost -- and completely crippling.

I also think that there's no need to buff in compensation for something that should be already there to begin with. But that's just my opinion, some can think that detect pots are already weak and could bring good arguments for that so I put the subject.

However, I don't think there's the need to debate for a lack of indicators, that is really something that everyone can agree on.

BNOC wrote: »

Should add detected as a debuff and put it on your debuffs bar so you can try keep track of it.

Anyone that uses a detect pot to find you, has gimped themselves to counter 1 thing.

Even then, detect pots are pretty bad, it's easy to see you can't get into cloak, get out of range and then cloak again, never to be found again.

There definitely shouldn't be any indicator on the player that used it, only one on your debuff bar to let you know someone can see you. You shouldn't have knowledge of who's used what and when, that would be ridiculous.

Rahar wrote: »

A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

Maybe zerglings, we shouldn't be balancing things around how effective something is against a bad player.

I'd tell that their efficiency is contextual, some builds make a better use of it, it's really hard to get enough distance against a MagSorc with Streak for example, especially if you play without Shade, they're also less effective when the Nb got a place where it's easy to LoS and vice-versa with open field, etc.

But I don't see why you think that it would be ridiculous if you could know which guy used the detect pot ? You can also know which guy use Magelight or Camo Hunter looking at the visual effect on them, is that so strong for you ?

I agree it's contextual but I'd say that potions are ineffective at a much higher percentage than they are effective, which is amplified if you play with shade.

I haven't seen magelight in about 2 years because it's so useless and so obvious, at least not from a good player - When was the last time you were pulled out with Mage Light by anyone not in a 412 man group? Probably a long long time ago, because you can see it to avoid it coupled with the fact it's pretty pants to begin with.

There's no reason for NB's to have a definitive indicator of who to avoid, otherwise, like magelight and the rest, they'll become unused and useless in the rare case scenario they are currently beneficial - Having a debuff that lets you know someone can see you and you can't cloak right now should be enough. Whether that's a debuff bar debuff or just visualised on your head doesn't matter but it should not be on the user.

This is not an appropriate argument to use to remove overhead indicators because you're misplacing the actual cause of the problem on the indicators, not the poorly performing abilities themselves. However, it is a good argument for buffing on-bar stealth detect abilities, which needs to happen anyway. Everything that counters stealth should have some kind of indicator because consistency is extremely important; and in the rest of the game outside of detect pots, there is an indicator of some kind. Even when you drink a pot, there's an indicator on your head. It's abundantly clear that there should be one given the context of the rest of the game.

Additionally, I feel as though a subjective "it doesn't work for me" doesn't hold much water in general when referring to detect pots. I could say that it does work for me 80-90% of the time, but that doesn't mean anything. You'll still think I'm wrong. What does prove that something needs to be done is that it's done a different way in every other place in the game... and even on your own screen. I don't know how anyone could ignore this.

I never said being caught makes anyone bad, but if they're then dying in that 15 second window, struggling to get into cloak again or turn it into an offence whilst they wait, somethings up.

You are certainly gimping yourself in a meaningful way, it's almost always more beneficial to just wait the nb out, because you know they're coming back and if they don't then that sums them up doesn't it.

I never said it didn't work for me? how often are you killed because someone used a detect pot? The talk on here over the years about cloak and it's counters isn't hearsay, they're terrible and are almost never used because of the fact.

How I can ignore it is simple, we're not talking about PvE and this post is about the one counter that isn't useless (for selfish reasons).

You're asking a counter, to have what would effectively be (to any decent NB) a built in counter to that counter.. Just think about that.

Bottom line is that I don't really care because like i said, it's more beneficial to just wait most of you out then waste a CD but what you're asking for sounds very hand holdy.

Your convenient ignoring of my main point doesn't make it any less true; I don't want my hand held, I just want consistency in being alerted when someone can detect stealth, especially when every other part of the game does it with the eye indicator over the head. It's not just PvE where this is true. It's PvP as well with magelight + company and with the use of the detect pot on the user's side. Magelight + company need a buff of some kind to make them more useful, certainly, but they and all other effects that detect stealth need an indicator to promote counterplay, which is an element of any skilled play.

Consider it this way: Wings (when it provided such a hard counter, less of a problem now) had and has a flap animation and an effect on the player who used it, so you could counterplay it by waiting or using melee. Total Dark (and the other morph) has counterplay because you can see the orb visual and know when you're healing the templar and a stun or snare might be coming. Cloak, even, has counterplay because the nightblade simply disappears and by throwing out an AoE in the direction you thought he went in, you can be rewarded by knocking him out of stealth. Detect pot lacks any semblance of this play/counterplay dichotomy that is so integral to the rest of the game because there is no indication of when it is used. On the contrary, it almost seems like I'm thinking of this a lot less superficially than you.

Also

BNOC wrote: »

I never said it didn't work for me?

BNOC wrote: »

I'd say that potions are ineffective at a much higher percentage than they are effective

BNOC wrote: »

I never said being caught makes anyone bad

BNOC wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

A quarter of a minute is more than enough time to lock down a nightblade and finish him off, which is how they should be used to begin with.

[...]
Maybe zerglings, we shouldn't be balancing things around how effective something is against a bad player.

Big thonk

jadarock

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Quit skulking around, and this won't be a problem!

Hey emma playing a squishy "skulking" nb is just as valid a playstyle as your sorc..


I think it's funny how many people say nb counters dont work yet I see good players use them with success all the time

Vlad9425

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Quit skulking around, and this won't be a problem!

Thats like me saying quit hiding behind all your pets and shields and then Streaking away when you know you're beaten.

buttaface

Disagree with OP. Detect pots should stay the way they are so cloak can stay the way it is. Don't think for a second they wouldn't slide in a massive cloak nerf with such a change to detect pots. Everyone posting in this thread knows that is -exactly- what they would do.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

I don’t think it would change much, but I agree. It wouldn’t be a bad idea to have an eye above someone using a detect pot.

jadarock

DukeDiewalker wrote: »

As somone not playing stealth (I even use Dark Cloak on my stamblade), I have to agree with this. Detect pots are an important counter to the stealth mechanic but it makes absolutely no sense that someone in stealth is not notified if a detect potion is used.
Why is there not that Eye symbole above the head like it is shown if you use it yourself?

+1 makes zero sense

Jaraal

Maybe Bosmer with their passive stealth detection can run around with a huge "B" over their head, too. And if they're wearing the Way of Air set, add a "WA" as well. So when a zerg of similarly equipped wood elves approaches, everyone will be terrified of the giant BBWAAHAHAWAAAABBA!

NBrookus

I'm fine with a visual or audio queue when someone pots a detect pot. It'd be like counting shalk or curse or any number of other timed skills.

But a non-stop aura you can see while stealthed would functionally eliminate stealth counters. You just walk around the circles like in PVE, which is trivial.

UNLESS nightblades, while stealthed/cloaked/invis potted, can see an aura with the range of anyone's detection area via potions, skills, sets, passives, etc. But nightblades have a new passive that can see all other nightblades, including enemies, while they are also stealthed/cloaked/invis potted. Let the NB stealth war begin!

Abyssmol

OP you lost me when you mentioned "in a dual." Why are you hiding in a 1v1? Are you playing hide and seek...

React

Cloak is the most broken, noob enabling skill in the game. No other defensive mechanic negates 100% of damage taken. No other ability allows you to pick and choose exactly when you would like to engage and disengage. No other ability allows you to complete negate your opponent's ability to track you in an engagement.

This skill alone has saved more noobs from me than every defensive ult, burst heal, gap closer, or damage shield combined. It is actually disgusting to see the constant complaints here on the forums about how "cloak has too many counters" or "detect pots need to be nerfed". It just shows how little experience the OP's have playing other classes and surviving without a "you don't get to target me now" button.

Rahar

Liam12548 wrote: »

Cloak is the most broken, noob enabling skill in the game. No other defensive mechanic negates 100% of damage taken. No other ability allows you to pick and choose exactly when you would like to engage and disengage. No other ability allows you to complete negate your opponent's ability to track you in an engagement.

This skill alone has saved more noobs from me than every defensive ult, burst heal, gap closer, or damage shield combined. It is actually disgusting to see the constant complaints here on the forums about how "cloak has too many counters" or "detect pots need to be nerfed". It just shows how little experience the OP's have playing other classes and surviving without a "you don't get to target me now" button.

Obligatory meme comment "git gud", "l2p", etc.

This thread isn't about cloak. It's not even about nerfing detect pots. It's about making them show an indicator above a user's head when used.

React

Rahar wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

Cloak is the most broken, noob enabling skill in the game. No other defensive mechanic negates 100% of damage taken. No other ability allows you to pick and choose exactly when you would like to engage and disengage. No other ability allows you to complete negate your opponent's ability to track you in an engagement.

This skill alone has saved more noobs from me than every defensive ult, burst heal, gap closer, or damage shield combined. It is actually disgusting to see the constant complaints here on the forums about how "cloak has too many counters" or "detect pots need to be nerfed". It just shows how little experience the OP's have playing other classes and surviving without a "you don't get to target me now" button.

Obligatory meme comment "git gud", "l2p", etc.

This thread isn't about cloak. It's not even about nerfing detect pots. It's about making them show an indicator above a user's head when used.

So you're telling me that getting targeted with single target/direct damage abilities isn't enough of an indicator that you've been detect potted? Are the majority of nightblade mains really so clueless that they just have no idea what is going on when their "you don't get to target me" button stops working?

Rianai

1. Cloak does not negate 100% of dmg taken. Not even close.

2. Sometimes cloak breaks by single target stuff (especially la) when no detect pots are used, and when getting chased by multiple players it is often hard to identify every single dmg source that is breaking cloak, so atm repeatedly spaming it to see if it starts working or not is the only way to notice if detect pots are being used.

juhislihis19

Sure, why not. When Cloak is "broken", the NB should be notified somehow. And when Cloak is 'revealed', NB's should be able to take all kinds of damage: not only AOE, but DoTs and single-target.

I mean you are supposed to be invisible, not intangible, right?

Mariusghost84

Liam12548 wrote: »

Rahar wrote: »

Liam12548 wrote: »

Cloak is the most broken, noob enabling skill in the game. No other defensive mechanic negates 100% of damage taken. No other ability allows you to pick and choose exactly when you would like to engage and disengage. No other ability allows you to complete negate your opponent's ability to track you in an engagement.

This skill alone has saved more noobs from me than every defensive ult, burst heal, gap closer, or damage shield combined. It is actually disgusting to see the constant complaints here on the forums about how "cloak has too many counters" or "detect pots need to be nerfed". It just shows how little experience the OP's have playing other classes and surviving without a "you don't get to target me now" button.

Obligatory meme comment "git gud", "l2p", etc.

This thread isn't about cloak. It's not even about nerfing detect pots. It's about making them show an indicator above a user's head when used.

So you're telling me that getting targeted with single target/direct damage abilities isn't enough of an indicator that you've been detect potted? Are the majority of nightblade mains really so clueless that they just have no idea what is going on when their "you don't get to target me" button stops working?

Isnt this more about Nightblades being able to see who is using detect pots and who isnt? Like, to be able to actually see if someone has one active and then being able to decide wether to approac that person or not?

BaiterOfZergs

There shouldn’t be any indicator that you’re being spotted at all while you’re cloaking , the same way someone doesn’t know you’re cloaking or where you’re at during a cloak.

Adding a detect indicator was a perplexing change.