Is Orc over-preforming in PvP?

Vig0rz

Right now the two most dominating stam races are nord and orc with orc being the better of the two. While the nord's 3960 resistances are very strong it can easily be replaced by running a setup that includes 1 pirate skeleton and 1 chudan.

WillhelmBlack

No

Old orc was way better.

ChunkyCat

Yes

Nope

Kurat

Did some Orc kill you or couldn't you kill the Orc. Whichever it was, are you trying to start another nerf thread?

Crixus8000

No

No. And orc is even missing it's last passive in bg and no cp atm lol. So orc right now is the worst race when it comes to playing those types of pvp.

Luckylancer

No

Orc passives are ok. When you compare it to dunmer for example, you trade fire resistance + burn immunity with sprint buffs. Orc is bit stronger with other numbers because dunmer is hybrid and orc is specialized.

Vig0rz wrote: »

While the nord's 3960 resistances are very strong it can easily be replaced by running a setup that includes 1 pirate skeleton and 1 chudan.

Guess what is got replaced by 1 molag kena and 1 velidreth?

caperb

No

The orc has more stamina and weapon damage (equal to 305 weapon damage). You say the nord resistances can easily be replaced by a monster set, but guess what happens when you wear balorgh on a nord?

The stat density is about the same, it is just the nord ulti regen vs the orc movement speed. Both races are strong, it all depends on the build.

juhislihis19

It's complicated

Other "stamina" races are underperforming (bar Nord). So no need to nerf Orc when ZOS could easily give a little buff to Imperial, Redguard and Khajiit.

Dojohoda

It's complicated

Wait

Let me play my orc for a year or two then I will get back to ya.

Banana

Yes

PVE to

Tommy_The_Gun

No

The only 2 race that are underperforming is Argonian and Wood elf. It is way easier to buff 2 races than nerf 4...

Deathlord92

I have a orc nb and I think orc is fine my main is my Breton nb.

grannas211

Yes

Far and away the most overloaded race in the game.

casparian

No

No. It's a very good race on many specs, but other races outclass it on other specs -- woodelf for stamNB in particular. Nord is competitive with Orc on most classes, and Redguard is very good even after the Onslaught change, and even better now with the change to snare calculation. There are even a few very good players running Dunmer on stam builds (stamplar in particular) due to how stat dense it is.

Let's not forget that the change to sprint stamina consumption was also an indirect nerf to Orc, as its sprint passive is now less valuable for sustain (though still very good for mobility).

laissezfaire

It's complicated

Vig0rz wrote: »

Right now the two most dominating stam races are nord and orc with orc being the better of the two. While the nord's 3960 resistances are very strong it can easily be replaced by running a setup that includes 1 pirate skeleton and 1 chudan.

But per your logic, a Nord could just wear 1 PC velidreth and 1 PC Kena and that equals orc damage passive.

BoaNoite

for CP pvp stam sorc which would be better for a 5-2 medium set up running truth and new moon? orc or nord?

technohic

No

I'm happy to see nord mentioned. I can remember when the changes were made an I tried telling people a nord with medium armor passives is similar to an orc with heavy armor passives. Either way, I dont think we need any nerfs.

Trenia

Yes

moltzdc wrote: »

Vig0rz wrote: »

Right now the two most dominating stam races are nord and orc with orc being the better of the two. While the nord's 3960 resistances are very strong it can easily be replaced by running a setup that includes 1 pirate skeleton and 1 chudan.

But per your logic, a Nord could just wear 1 PC velidreth and 1 PC Kena and that equals orc damage passive.

Orc has more resources than nord too. That’s 6000 resources from pirate and chudan. Orc is way too overloaded. The class is too strong for melee. No choice is comparable for PVE or PVP for melee

WillhelmBlack

No

grannas211 wrote: »

Far and away the most overloaded race in the game.

Yeah I think you forgot about Breton and Nord, pal.

MartiniDaniels

Yes

Orc just received another buff, because sprint is so cheap this patch, those 10% to speed are crazy good given that other passives are good too. Best stamina race hands down.

CynicK

No

This nerf thread is totaly out of place because the passive that gives more damage is bugged right now and does not work, I can see people like you come from a mile!

Vlad9425

Nearly every Stam DD in high end PVE guilds is running Orc and PvP is also flooded with them now so yes. The sad thing however is that instead of buffing other races ZOS will probably just nerf Orc.

WillhelmBlack

No

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Nearly every Stam DD in high end PVE guilds is running Orc and PvP is also flooded with them now so yes. The sad thing however is that instead of buffing other races ZOS will probably just nerf Orc.

No it isn't.

Best races for each stam class. PvP.

Warden - Redguard, Nord, Orc
DK - Nord, Redguard, Imperial
Sorc - Orc by far but Nord if medium
Templar - Orc, Redguard
Necro - Nord, Argonian, Imperial, Khajiit
Nightblade - Bosmer, Khajiit

If the max health is what makes it so OP in PvE, they should remove that and give Orc its health recovery back.

ZarkingFrued

No

No, no, oh and no. If this gets nerfed I have 2 orcs that I'm gonna send you a bill for race changes on. This is absurd, races need to be left alone now. FOREVER. Additional race changes and I'm out, as well as many many others. We're not paying to race change all 10+ characters every 3 months because you want to play an underperforming race, and get triggered that other races perform correctly.

Vlad9425

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Nearly every Stam DD in high end PVE guilds is running Orc and PvP is also flooded with them now so yes. The sad thing however is that instead of buffing other races ZOS will probably just nerf Orc.

No it isn't.

Best races for each stam class. PvP.

Warden - Redguard, Nord, Orc
DK - Nord, Redguard, Imperial
Sorc - Orc by far but Nord if medium
Templar - Orc, Redguard
Necro - Nord, Argonian, Imperial, Khajiit
Nightblade - Bosmer, Khajiit

If the max health is what makes it so OP in PvE, they should remove that and give Orc its health recovery back.

What you on about lol? I play a Stamplar, Stamsorc and Stamblade and for all of them Orc comes out as a top DPS in PVE.

CynicK

No

Buy a race change token and let the ones that have an orc be without orcs being nerfed.

MashmalloMan

No

Stop making posts like this. How about we make posts asking if Wood Elf or other stam races are under performing because I guarantee you will find a majority for YES. Orc and Nord are great the way they are, both unique.

From a PVP perspective, the Orc is just great all around. Who doesn't want Sprint speed and sprint cost reduction? The other Races have very niche passives and don't offer enough to stand out. Nord does this well, so it's a strong contender. Both of these races should be good examples.

This is all mostly from a PVE perspective:

You can make the argument that a Wood Elf can use BI-Stat Food since sustain is covered and an Orc can run Dubious or Artaeum to cover the sustain they're missing, but the food available isn't diverse enough to offset the difference. Wood Elf ends up with less recovery as a dedicated Recovery race and the Orc ends up with more sustain as the Brawler race, but also more damage.

Max Stam =/= Weapon damage. HP isn't necessary beyond a certain point for pve.

See spoiler for more maths below. Most people use Dubious Cameron Throne due to cost, so Orc can be a little stronger then the math used..

TLDR: Orc has enough hp to hit the pve hp benchmark, about 123 more effective damage and 57 more stam recovery (Dubious Cameron Throne) when compared to Wood Elf (Bi-Stat Food). This comparison is using weaker food. Consider the fact that since Wood Elf's effective damage is tied to Max Stamina, it requires CP beyond 300 and high uptime on Warhorn, where as Weapon Damage from Orc only requires any DK for Minor Brutality, even without it, you have more frequent and reliable multipliers. This highlights as well why Wood Elf and Redguard are worse PVP races in terms of damage when CP and Warhorns aren't always available.

Max Stamina Multiplier: 20% CP, 15% Warhorn, 2-6% undaunted (bis is 7 med though), total = 37-41% multiplier, stam sorc + 8%

Max Weapon Damage Multiplier: 15% med, 20% major, 10% minor, 3% per fighters guild, total = 48-54% multipier, does not depend on cp or warhorn uptime.

Orc w/ Dubious:

• 1000 hp + 3094 hp = 4094 hp
• 258 weapon damage * 1.51 = 389.58 wpd total
• 2000 sta + 2856 sta = 4856 sta
  • 4856 Sta * 1.37 multiplier = 6652.72 sta total
  • Effective max stam to damage conversion: 6652.72 / 10.46 = 636
• 636 + 389.58 = 1025.58 total damage
• 315 sta recovery

Wood Elf w/ Braised Rabbit:

• 5395 hp (This is too much and goes wasted for pve)
• 2000 sta + 4936 sta = 6936 sta
  • 6936 sta * 1.37 multiplier = 9502.32 sta total
  • Effective max stam to damage conversion: 9502.32 / 10.46 = 908.44
• 0 Weapon Damage
• 908.44 Total Damage
• 258 sta recov

Wood Elf needs to be buffed to around 350-400 Stamina Recovery to at least stand out as being a high recovery race. Just give back their damn sneak passive too, detection is useless and actually notifies other people sneaking when you're near.

Redguard also has an issue since half of their sustain is tied to Weapon Skill Cost Reduction, the design of the game is shifting farther away from using all weapon skills as Stam Class Identity gets stronger. DK and Sorc were the only classes able to reliably utilize that cost reduction passive, but the most recent patch completely destroyed that (in a good way). DK now has their own great spammable (animation debate aside) and Sorc now uses 2-3 Bound Armaments procs a rotation. Everyone is also using less weapon dots since they're weak AF. The cost reduction passive needs to either be much stronger or be weaker, yet apply to everything. Snare reduction is hit or miss since snares are weaker and less prevalent in the current patch.

Khajiit is a jack of all trades, hybrid, for DPS their sustain isn't strong enough to use Bi-Stat food so they use Dubious, ending up with less dps then Orc's, with only slightly better sustain. They're niche is being a hybrid, all things considered I think their passives are strong.

Dark Elf is also a hybrid, they're slightly behind Orc since they're hp is too low to use Dubious without swapping a Stam enchant to HP, the other stats are mostly the same for dps. I think they're unique enough for all content, I enjoy using Dark Elf as an option to switch between Mag or Stam builds.

Nord is very PVP or tank focussed. Their passives are unique enough for both play styles. 0 sustain or damage, just wouldn't recommend for PVE dps.

Imperial is very PVP or tank focussed. For dps their sustain is also not high enough like Khajiit so they use Dubious, no other damage stats, falls behind Nord since Nord has ult gen and higher resistance with only a small reduction in HP making them a slightly worse Tank or PVP option.

Closing thoughts: If food was more diverse or more hp was necessary in PVE content, other races would be picked more, but Orc is just a great all around better option for most scenarios. The problem with ZOS's original design was it was based on a budget system where they assigned the values. The basis of their budget was not well made, 2k hp =/= 2k stam. 258 recovery =/= 258 weapon damage. 8% Weapon Cost reduction depends on the conext of the patch and class, AKA very niche.

MashmalloMan

No

Vlad9425 wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Nearly every Stam DD in high end PVE guilds is running Orc and PvP is also flooded with them now so yes. The sad thing however is that instead of buffing other races ZOS will probably just nerf Orc.

No it isn't.

Best races for each stam class. PvP.

Warden - Redguard, Nord, Orc
DK - Nord, Redguard, Imperial
Sorc - Orc by far but Nord if medium
Templar - Orc, Redguard
Necro - Nord, Argonian, Imperial, Khajiit
Nightblade - Bosmer, Khajiit

If the max health is what makes it so OP in PvE, they should remove that and give Orc its health recovery back.

What you on about lol? I play a Stamplar, Stamsorc and Stamblade and for all of them Orc comes out as a top DPS in PVE.

He did say PVP, but I disagree anyway. Redguard is only useful if you use a lot of weapon skills and at this point, why play Templar or Warden if you're going to use a weapon spammable. To each their own, but I don't think it's worth it. DK and Sorc should be higher picks for Redguard, but both got some class identity this patch so Redguard is even worse then they were before.

ThePedge

Vlad9425 wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Vlad9425 wrote: »

Nearly every Stam DD in high end PVE guilds is running Orc and PvP is also flooded with them now so yes. The sad thing however is that instead of buffing other races ZOS will probably just nerf Orc.

No it isn't.

Best races for each stam class. PvP.

Warden - Redguard, Nord, Orc
DK - Nord, Redguard, Imperial
Sorc - Orc by far but Nord if medium
Templar - Orc, Redguard
Necro - Nord, Argonian, Imperial, Khajiit
Nightblade - Bosmer, Khajiit

If the max health is what makes it so OP in PvE, they should remove that and give Orc its health recovery back.

What you on about lol? I play a Stamplar, Stamsorc and Stamblade and for all of them Orc comes out as a top DPS in PVE.

Literally says in his post that he is on about PvP.

And considering Orcs don't even have their passives in PvP at the minute they are dog hahaha

MashmalloMan

No

grannas211 wrote: »

Far and away the most overloaded race in the game.

If I told someone in a third world country I can go to any tap in my house and drink water from it whenever I want, would you consider me to be spoiled or would you consider that everyone in the world should have access to clean drinking water as a human right?

Obviously that's a bit drastic, but the same holds true here, many races are underpowered in different ways. We should treat Orc as the standard if people are picking them more than other races.

Mayrael

No

Just stop it. No more racial mess. All races can be utilised now pretty nice, there always have to be some slight differences