Dot nerf doesn't close skill gap

ForzaRammer

Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.

I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.

TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.

Siohwenoeht

True to an extent, but really no nerf or buff closes or widens the skill gap.

Practice and build theory are the things that close the gap.

You can have competitive builds that don't even utilize Ani cancelling, they won't be top dps of course but they're not far behind.

Weaving, which is slightly different than Ani cancelling, is simply adding a light attack while skills are on the global cool down. Once you become faster at weaving, you begin to Ani cancel without even realizing it, but you can weave without cancelling animations.

Not everyone is going to be able to put together leaderboard runs, and the game would be worse if that were possible.

All any of us can do is play and have fun. It is a game after all. Some people have fun squeezing that fraction out of their dps builds and pushing scores that shave mere seconds off of runs. That's not for me, but I still push my builds and myself to be better.

I'd hate for zos to artificially close the skill gap.

KageNin

Getting better at DPS closes skill gap, dont try to drag people down because of your own limitations. Get better not bitter

WuffyCerulei

One of the few times I will tell someone to git gud. The dot meta pretty much deleted class identity, excluding the class who are mainly dot users, aka DKs. Practice your rotation, practice weaving, improve your gear, and learn to improve your dps.

MehrunesFlagon

KageNin wrote: »

Getting better at DPS closes skill gap, dont try to drag people down because of your own limitations. Get better not bitter

Yeah,even if you aren't perfect at light attack weaving that doesn't mean you can't improve.

vesselwiththepestle

Many low dps players have light attacks very high in their dps, too, if not in top 1 position... It doesn't mean they have good light attack weaving, for example they might do several light attacks instead of one light attack between skills... Or not knowing what to do when ressources run out and they start spamming light attacks...

Rerum

Git gut.
Why you even decided that there must be no gap? You just depreciating efforts that players put to get better results than others. Most stamina and magicka characters were already braindead in their rotations even before Scalebreaker. When dot meta hited the fan people just refused to play this stupidity. If you have any excuses that you haven't time/willing and etc to improve yourself - just don't make topics like this.

Mathius_Mordred

This game is being ruined by all the whining PvPers just like so many others. I doubt the Lord Warden cares about your LA:DoT ratio, it's only other players. Why is it the majority of players, many of whom have had enough of nuclear option patch notes, have to suffer for a tiny minority who enjoy PvP? Why do Devs continually make this mistake?

If you want different results when playing PvP to PvE then perhaps on entering the zone a different set of calculations could be applied, we see this with No Cp areas so we know they can do it. Stop calling for nerfs, you are removing the enjoyability of the game and that will eventually result in its demise, perhaps then the PvPers will be happy.

eovogtb16_ESO

If anything this widens the gap. People with little chance before of getting some of the dungeon achievements now have an even smaller chance of getting them.

daemonios

Rerum wrote: »

Git gut.
Why you even decided that there must be no gap? You just depreciating efforts that players put to get better results than others. Most stamina and magicka characters were already braindead in their rotations even before Scalebreaker. When dot meta hited the fan people just refused to play this stupidity. If you have any excuses that you haven't time/willing and etc to improve yourself - just don't make topics like this.

Nobody is saying good players shouldn't be rewarded, but too wide a gap is a glaring design flaw with negative consequences for the game. Why do you think players are so polarised around "game is too easy" on the one hand and "game is too hard" on the other? With the kind of gap we have between a good and even a mediocre player, it's basically impossible to design well-rounded content (not to mention the fact that ZOS still haven't learned after 5 years how to prevent boss burn and ignoring mechanics).

FierceSam

PvP player beaten by “More Skilled Opponent” shocker

Rerum

daemonios wrote: »

Rerum wrote: »

Git gut.
Why you even decided that there must be no gap? You just depreciating efforts that players put to get better results than others. Most stamina and magicka characters were already braindead in their rotations even before Scalebreaker. When dot meta hited the fan people just refused to play this stupidity. If you have any excuses that you haven't time/willing and etc to improve yourself - just don't make topics like this.

Nobody is saying good players shouldn't be rewarded, but too wide a gap is a glaring design flaw with negative consequences for the game. Why do you think players are so polarised around "game is too easy" on the one hand and "game is too hard" on the other? With the kind of gap we have between a good and even a mediocre player, it's basically impossible to design well-rounded content (not to mention the fact that ZOS still haven't learned after 5 years how to prevent boss burn and ignoring mechanics).

This is a point. And gamers always spread between "too easy" and "too hard" in most of games and most of cases. Thing is that end-game content here not really difficult, it's question about communicating and coordination in group. vCR+3 can be cleared with group of mediocre DDs who deal like 25-30k dps(in this trial, not at dummy ofc), but with good coordination. Point is that "gap" in dps not really matter at this game if you have good coordination and knowledge of mechanics. And than better you at dps than better you can beat hardest content, but it's not impossible to do with mediocre dps.

So what a point in playing without any class identity with dot meta where even worst players can do 5 front-5 back static rotation as mag DD and pull enough dps to clear any content(if they put some efforts to build up a good group coordination)? Where is reward for good players in this case?

KageNin

daemonios wrote: »

Rerum wrote: »

Git gut.
Why you even decided that there must be no gap? You just depreciating efforts that players put to get better results than others. Most stamina and magicka characters were already braindead in their rotations even before Scalebreaker. When dot meta hited the fan people just refused to play this stupidity. If you have any excuses that you haven't time/willing and etc to improve yourself - just don't make topics like this.

Nobody is saying good players shouldn't be rewarded, but too wide a gap is a glaring design flaw with negative consequences for the game. Why do you think players are so polarised around "game is too easy" on the one hand and "game is too hard" on the other? With the kind of gap we have between a good and even a mediocre player, it's basically impossible to design well-rounded content (not to mention the fact that ZOS still haven't learned after 5 years how to prevent boss burn and ignoring mechanics).

More DPS doesn't make you skip mechanics (for the most part), people fail in harder content because they don't respond to mechanics correctly.
You can't out DPS vScalecaller Peak or vDepths of Malatar.
Getting good doesn't mean getting more DPS it means getting better at the game in general. People have done vMOL HM when top DPS was like 30k.

technohic

I think the OP is talking about PVP and missing that DOT carry. I know it was pretty insane early-pre prime time Kaal PC NA. 2 or 3 waves at Bleakers and I had 48 kills in 40 minutes. Didn't die until i was sitting there laughing as i ran down 1 and didn't pay attention to realize it was a good player that is known and not relying on a zerg of DOTs. I like that he stood out.

Truth be told, DOTs were not the best way before without numbers, but it's pretty ridiculous that purge spam was about the highest defensive priority.

Jhalin

technohic wrote: »

I think the OP is talking about PVP and missing that DOT carry. I know it was pretty insane early-pre prime time Kaal PC NA. 2 or 3 waves at Bleakers and I had 48 kills in 40 minutes. Didn't die until i was sitting there laughing as i ran down 1 and didn't pay attention to realize it was a good player that is known and not relying on a zerg of DOTs. I like that he stood out.

Truth be told, DOTs were not the best way before without numbers, but it's pretty ridiculous that purge spam was about the highest defensive priority.

PvP and PvE NEED to be balanced separately. There is quite plainly no other way to have healthy gameplay for either side.

In PvP strong DoTs were hell because they require Purge spamming (available to only one class, as the alliance purge cost too much to use effectively against the DoT meta). However in PvE, high damage dots raise the damage floor by a lot, while adding comparatively little oomph to the top end of players.


The way to lessen this gap is fairly simple, increase the power of active abilities, decrease costs overall, and lower the damage of light attacks. That light attack buff from last year is what really caused the damage gap to explode with sets (*cough*Relequen*cough*) introduced that rewarded light attack weaving with heavy damage.

psxfloh

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Weaving, which is slightly different than Ani cancelling, is simply adding a light attack while skills are on the global cool down.

Huh? Improving DPS by "weaving" stands and falls with the animation of the light attack being cancelled.
Otherwise there would be no benefit in "weaving" a light attack when you could use an ability that does more damage than the light attack.
(pls correct me, if I'm totally mistaken here!)

To bring bottom and top closer together, animation cancelling should be nerfed.
e.g. by radically reducing light attack damage or by making "block" and "roll dodge" the only things that cancel an animation.
Or by moving the time where the actual damage of an attack or ability occurs way back, so the time between "damage" and "animation ends" (to use the next attack/ability) is reduced to a minimum.

JonnytheKing

what did i just read , WHAT.
Like really i wanna think that this a troll

Jhalin

psxfloh wrote: »

Siohwenoeht wrote: »

Weaving, which is slightly different than Ani cancelling, is simply adding a light attack while skills are on the global cool down.

Huh? Improving DPS by "weaving" stands and falls with the animation of the light attack being cancelled.
Otherwise there would be no benefit in "weaving" a light attack when you could use an ability that does more damage than the light attack.
(pls correct me, if I'm totally mistaken here!)

To bring bottom and top closer together, animation cancelling should be nerfed.
e.g. by radically reducing light attack damage or by making "block" and "roll dodge" the only things that cancel an animation.
Or by moving the time where the actual damage of an attack or ability occurs way back, so the time between "damage" and "animation ends" (to use the next attack/ability) is reduced to a minimum.

I’d love to get an animation overhaul so they were clipped to the global cooldown instead of going over after the damage has already registered. Putting cast times on everything is a terrible idea though if you want fluid combat, which is what that delayed damage would ruin, so big no there.

No damn reason it should take 2gcd cycles to launch Endless Hail when the calculations are done after one

pieratsos

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.

I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.

TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.

So ur idea of getting better is for dots to be broken so u can press 3 buttons and get the same effectiveness with someone who can perform a flawless rotation with perfect weaves.

Yeah, I don't think that the word "improve" means what you think it means.

ZeroXFF

KageNin wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

Rerum wrote: »

Git gut.
Why you even decided that there must be no gap? You just depreciating efforts that players put to get better results than others. Most stamina and magicka characters were already braindead in their rotations even before Scalebreaker. When dot meta hited the fan people just refused to play this stupidity. If you have any excuses that you haven't time/willing and etc to improve yourself - just don't make topics like this.

Nobody is saying good players shouldn't be rewarded, but too wide a gap is a glaring design flaw with negative consequences for the game. Why do you think players are so polarised around "game is too easy" on the one hand and "game is too hard" on the other? With the kind of gap we have between a good and even a mediocre player, it's basically impossible to design well-rounded content (not to mention the fact that ZOS still haven't learned after 5 years how to prevent boss burn and ignoring mechanics).

More DPS doesn't make you skip mechanics (for the most part), people fail in harder content because they don't respond to mechanics correctly.
You can't out DPS vScalecaller Peak or vDepths of Malatar.
Getting good doesn't mean getting more DPS it means getting better at the game in general. People have done vMOL HM when top DPS was like 30k.

You absolutely can out DPS vSP to skip the poison covering 1/3 of the room. And in vDoM if you have enough DPS to kill the adds coming from the corners towards the boss at some point, you will have fewer mechanics to deal with too.

BlueRaven

The OP is correct in that this patch basically made end game accessible to a lot fewer players. Tgis will have a negative domino effect for end game players as the pool of people signing up for endgame content goes down, making groups harder to come by.

And those longer waits makes dungeon queues less attractive, which further decreases the amount of people in them.

The chief problem is the combat team because they;

A ) Are not very hard working.

I mean look at the combat changes this patch other then the blanket changes to dots and aoes, there is not a lot here. A redo of a two or three spells? This took them three months?

B ) They don’t really care.

During the eso live stream they literally said that the concerns of the common player is not their target. This change is directed at curbing endgame players dps and if the rest of the player base suffers, so what? That is the combat teams philosophy.

ForzaRammer

KageNin wrote: »

Getting better at DPS closes skill gap, dont try to drag people down because of your own limitations. Get better not bitter

Your ‘skill gap’ is your dps to top 5th percentile. What i said is the media to top 5th percentile.

Rave the Histborn

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.

I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.

TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.

You're never going to be a better dps if dots do all the work and over perform and you dont learn to rotate.

BlueRaven

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.

I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.

TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.

You're never going to be a better dps if dots do all the work and over perform and you dont learn to rotate.

The OP is not the median dps.

ForzaRammer

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.

I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.

TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.

You're never going to be a better dps if dots do all the work and over perform and you dont learn to rotate.

I don’t really care about being better at dps. I am a tank main and I cleared all the hm. I support lowering skill gap rather than widening it because it’s the morally correct thing to do.

ForzaRammer

pieratsos wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

Maybe in absolute term it does, but zos plz look at the ratio between top 5th percentile to median.
Think about it, top tier player light attack weave better and often time likely to get more spammable out.
As a result, LA and spammable is a bigger % of the total dps for top tier player.
At the same time, dot dmg is a bigger % of the dps for median player.
This nerf actually hit mediocre player harder than top tier player in terms of proportion.

I suppose the only ones not getting nerfed is the bottom 5-10%.
These ppl just spam snipe over and over without doing anything else.
Basically now ppl who actually try to improve are only slightly better than ppl who just want to be carried.
Make the dps distribution more balanced instead of left skewed.

TLDR, dot meta was great, should've nerfed direct dmg and light attack instead.

So ur idea of getting better is for dots to be broken so u can press 3 buttons and get the same effectiveness with someone who can perform a flawless rotation with perfect weaves.

Yeah, I don't think that the word "improve" means what you think it means.

I believe ‘improve’ is increase in dps. Compare hours of practice in rotation and gain of dps, I don’t believe a more linear gain is reasonable. I believe it should have a faster diminishing return.

ForzaRammer

Rerum wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

Rerum wrote: »

Git gut.
Why you even decided that there must be no gap? You just depreciating efforts that players put to get better results than others. Most stamina and magicka characters were already braindead in their rotations even before Scalebreaker. When dot meta hited the fan people just refused to play this stupidity. If you have any excuses that you haven't time/willing and etc to improve yourself - just don't make topics like this.

Nobody is saying good players shouldn't be rewarded, but too wide a gap is a glaring design flaw with negative consequences for the game. Why do you think players are so polarised around "game is too easy" on the one hand and "game is too hard" on the other? With the kind of gap we have between a good and even a mediocre player, it's basically impossible to design well-rounded content (not to mention the fact that ZOS still haven't learned after 5 years how to prevent boss burn and ignoring mechanics).

This is a point. And gamers always spread between "too easy" and "too hard" in most of games and most of cases. Thing is that end-game content here not really difficult, it's question about communicating and coordination in group. vCR+3 can be cleared with group of mediocre DDs who deal like 25-30k dps(in this trial, not at dummy ofc), but with good coordination. Point is that "gap" in dps not really matter at this game if you have good coordination and knowledge of mechanics. And than better you at dps than better you can beat hardest content, but it's not impossible to do with mediocre dps.

So what a point in playing without any class identity with dot meta where even worst players can do 5 front-5 back static rotation as mag DD and pull enough dps to clear any content(if they put some efforts to build up a good group coordination)? Where is reward for good players in this case?

Light attack between skill is still more dps. There is nothing wrong with static ratotion doing nuf dps. And it’s unlikely the median dps can actually do that.

BattleAxe

The real problem here was the addition of target dummies sure u can get a nice thick af dps score but in real content ur not gonna necessarily pull that dps number. Target dummies should merely be a practice tool to learn or perfect a rotation.

Another way to look at it is say ur hitting 50k plus but ur dying constantly ur 50k effectively becomes -50k as someone else typically another dd has to stop their rotation to come revive you. All content in this game is pretty much designed for a minimum of 35-40k dps. However their is achievement and score runs which pushes people to burn faster and skip mechanics perhaps the work around would be reward groups actually engage with boss mechanics for instance if no player fails to cleanse and dies on first boss in vMoL have some kind of new mechanic either removing the adds or open a burn window with the boss. On the twins if every player successfully completes conversion reward the group with a burn phase on bosses with no head colors until next prayer phase.

Mechanics should reward players who learn and successfully complete them.

Shantu

BlueRaven wrote: »

The OP is correct in that this patch basically made end game accessible to a lot fewer players. Tgis will have a negative domino effect for end game players as the pool of people signing up for endgame content goes down, making groups harder to come by.

And those longer waits makes dungeon queues less attractive, which further decreases the amount of people in them.

The chief problem is the combat team because they;

A ) Are not very hard working.

I mean look at the combat changes this patch other then the blanket changes to dots and aoes, there is not a lot here. A redo of a two or three spells? This took them three months?

B ) They don’t really care.

During the eso live stream they literally said that the concerns of the common player is not their target. This change is directed at curbing endgame players dps and if the rest of the player base suffers, so what? That is the combat teams philosophy.

As with anything in life, you reap what you sow. The end result of ^^this^^ is common players, who by a far margin financially support the game, will stop caring also. "Not caring" is not a philosophy...it's a lack of character and creativity, steeped in ignorance.

Raideen

The answer is that the unintended exploit known as animation cancelling/weaving should have been removed instead of the devs taking the lazy/cheap approach of accepting it. This is the predominant outlier that keeps the gap between the top and average player (obviously there are other things that attribute to the gap).

The problem at its core though goes to the initial design of combat where light/heavy attacks even exist at all. Its a boring mechanic and because everything is balanced around it and weaving there will always be a huge discrepancy between players that use it and those who do not/can not (latency can affect it).

I have a lot of issues with this game, but the one I always go back to is light/heavy attacks. I hate it especially with the destroy staff (which is mostly what I play...I find stamina boring). Because of this combat in general is "meh". The builds that sustain the longest are my favorites, of course ZO$ being ZO$ they nerfed sustain this patch which means more boring light/heavy attacking.

I'd rather use an ability that the light/heavy attack and don't even get me started on how clunky going back and forth between 1-4 and LMB is for weaving. Its a UX disaster...but this is what happens when a game is designed to work with controllers and keyboard.

ForzaRammer

BattleAxe wrote: »

The real problem here was the addition of target dummies sure u can get a nice thick af dps score but in real content ur not gonna necessarily pull that dps number. Target dummies should merely be a practice tool to learn or perfect a rotation.

Another way to look at it is say ur hitting 50k plus but ur dying constantly ur 50k effectively becomes -50k as someone else typically another dd has to stop their rotation to come revive you. All content in this game is pretty much designed for a minimum of 35-40k dps. However their is achievement and score runs which pushes people to burn faster and skip mechanics perhaps the work around would be reward groups actually engage with boss mechanics for instance if no player fails to cleanse and dies on first boss in vMoL have some kind of new mechanic either removing the adds or open a burn window with the boss. On the twins if every player successfully completes conversion reward the group with a burn phase on bosses with no head colors until next prayer phase.

Mechanics should reward players who learn and successfully complete them.

Dummy is to measure the ceiling. Some people value potential a lot.

This happens in sports all the time, teams would gamble when the chance of bust is high.

In eso risk is lower, just replace the bust with the next guy.