I want to thank the community for saving DoT's damage and...

Dragonnord

Thank you for saving DoTs, damage, classes (DK) and several playing styles that now are not dead.

We tested, we discussed, we provided feedback, ZOS listened.

Cheers!

PTS patch notes: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/496654/pts-patch-notes-v5-2-3
 

tahol10069

I couldn't find answer to this: Will Entropy still always give Major Sorcery, or is it just Degeneration?

ChunkyCat

You’re welcome.

Kagukan

Personally I think they are fine how they are now on live. Lots of ways to counter in PvP and mechanics could easily be added in PvE to mix things up with DoT's. Hopefully whatever they end up with on PTS that goes live will be useful. DoT's are a good opportunity for a unique and different play style.

Bekkael

Dragonnord wrote: »

Thank you for saving DoTs, damage, classes (DK) and several playing styles that now are not dead.

We tested, we discussed, we provided feedback, ZOS listened.

Cheers!

PTS patch notes: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/496654/pts-patch-notes-v5-2-3
 

What?! You mean my DK main will not become hot garbage now? 😭 I’m so happy I could cry. This is wonderful news. 😍🙏🎉

sindalstar

Y'all should probably apologize to the team too.

For throwing approximately enough Toxic damage at them to make it's own 5 piece set.
Coulda done the same amount of testing and feedback without launching yourselfs at their jugular and making thread upon thread on how much they suck

ArenGesus

sindalstar wrote: »

Y'all should probably apologize to the team too.

For throwing approximately enough Toxic damage at them to make it's own 5 piece set.
Coulda done the same amount of testing and feedback without launching yourselfs at their jugular and making thread upon thread on how much they suck

Nah. They need to learn how to use restraint when balancing. Hopefully next time they will, but I doubt it so am stocking up on mud balls. If they don't want everybody freaking out, they should adjust things with smallish incremental changes rather than huge swings. I think they'd not have listened at all if it wasn't for the over-the-top vitriol that came with the feedback.

Araneae6537

I’m glad to see this! I already love this game and this gives me more faith in the developers. I’m on indefinite hiatus from GW2 for destroying my favorite class (Druid). Their response to the outcry was to nerf it even further, twist the knife a bit while you’re at it why don’t you... Ahh, love many things about that game, but yeah, guess I’m still bitter, so good thing I’m here now!

Cloudless

Looks like my necromancer ain't ready for the grave just yet after all

sindalstar

ArenGesus wrote: »

sindalstar wrote: »

Y'all should probably apologize to the team too.

For throwing approximately enough Toxic damage at them to make it's own 5 piece set.
Coulda done the same amount of testing and feedback without launching yourselfs at their jugular and making thread upon thread on how much they suck

Nah. They need to learn how to use restraint when balancing. Hopefully next time they will, but I doubt it so am stocking up on mud balls. If they don't want everybody freaking out, they should adjust things with smallish incremental changes rather than huge swings. I think they'd not have listened at all if it wasn't for the over-the-top vitriol that came with the feedback.

The community has proven that they will freak out over anything. Everything is a disaster

When something needs to be nerfed (because it was overperforming and everyone complained about it) it is far easier to pull a larger number, see how THAT interacts with the myriad of other factors that contribute towards damage like sets, passives etc and then dial it back appropriately. Small tiny buffs or nerfs here and there 'slowly' pushes certain skills around and people will continue to complain about what 'they' want for their class or build.

You know
Testing.

I will commend the community, or those that actually provided feedback and participated in the PTR to give ZOS figures.
I will not, however, congratulate ones that basically rolled on the floor and threw a temper tantrum at 'proposed testable changes that are subject to change' like personal attacks.

There was a lot of that. A whole, whole lot of that.

ArenGesus

sindalstar wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

sindalstar wrote: »

Y'all should probably apologize to the team too.

For throwing approximately enough Toxic damage at them to make it's own 5 piece set.
Coulda done the same amount of testing and feedback without launching yourselfs at their jugular and making thread upon thread on how much they suck

Nah. They need to learn how to use restraint when balancing. Hopefully next time they will, but I doubt it so am stocking up on mud balls. If they don't want everybody freaking out, they should adjust things with smallish incremental changes rather than huge swings. I think they'd not have listened at all if it wasn't for the over-the-top vitriol that came with the feedback.

The community has proven that they will freak out over anything. Everything is a disaster

When something needs to be nerfed (because it was overperforming and everyone complained about it) it is far easier to pull a larger number, see how THAT interacts with the myrid of other factors that contribute towards damage like sets, passives etc and then dial it back appropriately.

You know
Testing.

I commend he community, or those that acutally provided feedback and participated in the PTR to give ZOS figures.
I ignore the ones that basically rolled on the floor and threw a temper tantrum. There was a lot of that.

Yeah, it's true that everyone freaks out regardless of whether it's warranted. But they also could have tested a lesser change and then increased the dot nurf and/or costs when finding it necessary after a first round of testing instead of the reverse.

The reason big swings cause a big outcry is you get everybody worrying about their various builds and how much time they'll have to put into new ones. And lets be honest - usually things don't get changed back, outcry or otherwise. 1st week patch notes go live more or less unchanged except for tweaks more often than not. So when you see a sledgehammer brought down on the game, you are going to use your experience to understand the vast majority of that is going to stick - you only need to look at scalebreaker to see how that works.

I think the massive amounts of mudslinging is the only thing that made this release stand out as unacceptable to the player base - or it would just look like the regular baby temper tantrums to the dev team. If anything should be nerfed at this stage, it's the forum toddlers who make it necessary for everybody else to go nuts for the dev team to know it's not normal. But still, zos should know better than to have balance on a roller coaster.

sindalstar

ArenGesus wrote: »

sindalstar wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

sindalstar wrote: »

Y'all should probably apologize to the team too.

For throwing approximately enough Toxic damage at them to make it's own 5 piece set.
Coulda done the same amount of testing and feedback without launching yourselfs at their jugular and making thread upon thread on how much they suck

Nah. They need to learn how to use restraint when balancing. Hopefully next time they will, but I doubt it so am stocking up on mud balls. If they don't want everybody freaking out, they should adjust things with smallish incremental changes rather than huge swings. I think they'd not have listened at all if it wasn't for the over-the-top vitriol that came with the feedback.

The community has proven that they will freak out over anything. Everything is a disaster

When something needs to be nerfed (because it was overperforming and everyone complained about it) it is far easier to pull a larger number, see how THAT interacts with the myrid of other factors that contribute towards damage like sets, passives etc and then dial it back appropriately.

You know
Testing.

I commend he community, or those that acutally provided feedback and participated in the PTR to give ZOS figures.
I ignore the ones that basically rolled on the floor and threw a temper tantrum. There was a lot of that.

Yeah, it's true that everyone freaks out regardless of whether it's warranted. But they also could have tested a lesser change and then increased the dot nurf and/or costs when finding it necessary after a first round of testing instead of the reverse.

The reason big swings cause a big outcry is you get everybody worrying about their various builds and how much time they'll have to put into new ones. And lets be honest - usually things don't get changed back, outcry or otherwise. 1st week patch notes go live more or less unchanged except for tweaks more often than not. So when you see a sledgehammer brought down on the game, you are going to use your experience to understand the vast majority of that is going to stick - you only need to look at scalebreaker to see how that works.

I think the massive amounts of mudslinging is the only thing that made this release stand out as unacceptable to the player base - or it would just look like the regular baby temper tantrums to the dev team. If anything should be nerfed at this stage, it's the forum toddlers who make it necessary for everybody else to go nuts for the dev team to know it's not normal. But still, zos should know better than to have balance on a roller coaster.

*shrugs*
They could have. But as it turns out, what they did is likely more beneficial and informative to them numbers wise. They're trying to balance a game. A game that is VERY hard to balance in a way that makes everyone happy because people want an awful lot of different things out of ESO.

This combat team's been headed for less than a year. I believe Wrobel left sometime in Jan? They inherited ALL the historical 'they never listen to us' from that. All I've seen them be is be increasingly more open with the community.

I will repeat:
I'm glad the community gave feedback. I'm glad we're getting somewhere.
But the way many acted was not helpful in the slightest and passing it off as "We finally did it guys" seems bitter to me.

But that's just me.

rotaugen454

Cloudless wrote: »

Looks like my necromancer ain't ready for the grave just yet after all

They are ready to USE it, just not be buried IN it.

Shantu

Personally, I think buffing DOT's to meta, then nerfing them by 60%, then buffing them by 33%, then buffing them again by 20% so that they end up with a 33% nerf from meta...was all an evil social experiment.

AcadianPaladin

A positive development I think. I have become pessimistic about PTS because I rarely see significant changes to what is put out in the initial pass. I have come to conclude that generally the initial pts patch notes will end up going live with few changes. The change to magicka shielding (with Murkmire) was an exception and showed a definite response to feedback - even though I disliked both the initial and final nerfs. This latest notable willingness to change stats during the pts process is encouraging and gives hope that the pts and forum feedback does generate some good sometimes.

Jayroo

To everyone saying the first set of notes would be on live...

I TOLD YOU SO

Heyodude

sindalstar wrote: »

Y'all should probably apologize to the team too.

For throwing approximately enough Toxic damage at them to make it's own 5 piece set.
Coulda done the same amount of testing and feedback without launching yourselfs at their jugular and making thread upon thread on how much they suck

this is the only way ZOS will take the community seriously, the developers dont respond to anything short of a mutinous revolt against their personal intelligence. Dont hate the players, hate the game. Pun intended. We honestly could have done with this type of revolt against see saw changes 3 patches ago.

Mr_Walker

sindalstar wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

sindalstar wrote: »

Y'all should probably apologize to the team too.

For throwing approximately enough Toxic damage at them to make it's own 5 piece set.
Coulda done the same amount of testing and feedback without launching yourselfs at their jugular and making thread upon thread on how much they suck

Nah. They need to learn how to use restraint when balancing. Hopefully next time they will, but I doubt it so am stocking up on mud balls. If they don't want everybody freaking out, they should adjust things with smallish incremental changes rather than huge swings. I think they'd not have listened at all if it wasn't for the over-the-top vitriol that came with the feedback.

The community has proven that they will freak out over anything. Everything is a disaster

When something needs to be nerfed (because it was overperforming and everyone complained about it) it is far easier to pull a larger number, see how THAT interacts with the myriad of other factors that contribute towards damage like sets, passives etc and then dial it back appropriately. Small tiny buffs or nerfs here and there 'slowly' pushes certain skills around and people will continue to complain about what 'they' want for their class or build.

You know
Testing.

I will commend the community, or those that actually provided feedback and participated in the PTR to give ZOS figures.
I will not, however, congratulate ones that basically rolled on the floor and threw a temper tantrum at 'proposed testable changes that are subject to change' like personal attacks.

There was a lot of that. A whole, whole lot of that.

If they have to hit something by 60% to start evaluating it, they have no idea in the first place.

MartiniDaniels

ST dots simply higher cost, less damage (in comparison to Elsweyr). Ok, we can live with it.

Blockade, hail.. just LOL. HUGE cost, laughable damage, useful only to proc enchantment on backbar and vma weapons.
Class AOE dots.. OMG, simply useless, clear dps loss. If you need to kill add waves, spammable aoe will be better.

Amazing "save", yeah.

Numerikuu

Saving? They've still been hit with roughly a 40% nerf according to PTS calcs. Next to nothing was saved.

MasterSpatula

Morrowind, strong negative reaction, changes went live. Murkmire, strong negative reaction, changes went live. Scalebreaker, strong negative reaction, changes went live.

I would argue the degree of community reaction that actually affected anything might just be the one to qualify as the appropriate reaction.

yRaven

So i will not have to abandon my favorite ability on my class (Blazing Spear)?

I'm happy

Drako_Ei

So it will still be a DOT meta for dps?
The AoE/DoT/Spammable/Buffs dynamic rotations were better IMO. I hate static rotations

jcm2606

sindalstar wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

sindalstar wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

sindalstar wrote: »

Y'all should probably apologize to the team too.

For throwing approximately enough Toxic damage at them to make it's own 5 piece set.
Coulda done the same amount of testing and feedback without launching yourselfs at their jugular and making thread upon thread on how much they suck

Nah. They need to learn how to use restraint when balancing. Hopefully next time they will, but I doubt it so am stocking up on mud balls. If they don't want everybody freaking out, they should adjust things with smallish incremental changes rather than huge swings. I think they'd not have listened at all if it wasn't for the over-the-top vitriol that came with the feedback.

The community has proven that they will freak out over anything. Everything is a disaster

When something needs to be nerfed (because it was overperforming and everyone complained about it) it is far easier to pull a larger number, see how THAT interacts with the myrid of other factors that contribute towards damage like sets, passives etc and then dial it back appropriately.

You know
Testing.

I commend he community, or those that acutally provided feedback and participated in the PTR to give ZOS figures.
I ignore the ones that basically rolled on the floor and threw a temper tantrum. There was a lot of that.

Yeah, it's true that everyone freaks out regardless of whether it's warranted. But they also could have tested a lesser change and then increased the dot nurf and/or costs when finding it necessary after a first round of testing instead of the reverse.

The reason big swings cause a big outcry is you get everybody worrying about their various builds and how much time they'll have to put into new ones. And lets be honest - usually things don't get changed back, outcry or otherwise. 1st week patch notes go live more or less unchanged except for tweaks more often than not. So when you see a sledgehammer brought down on the game, you are going to use your experience to understand the vast majority of that is going to stick - you only need to look at scalebreaker to see how that works.

I think the massive amounts of mudslinging is the only thing that made this release stand out as unacceptable to the player base - or it would just look like the regular baby temper tantrums to the dev team. If anything should be nerfed at this stage, it's the forum toddlers who make it necessary for everybody else to go nuts for the dev team to know it's not normal. But still, zos should know better than to have balance on a roller coaster.

*shrugs*
They could have. But as it turns out, what they did is likely more beneficial and informative to them numbers wise. They're trying to balance a game. A game that is VERY hard to balance in a way that makes everyone happy because people want an awful lot of different things out of ESO.

This combat team's been headed for less than a year. I believe Wrobel left sometime in Jan? They inherited ALL the historical 'they never listen to us' from that. All I've seen them be is be increasingly more open with the community.

I will repeat:
I'm glad the community gave feedback. I'm glad we're getting somewhere.
But the way many acted was not helpful in the slightest and passing it off as "We finally did it guys" seems bitter to me.

But that's just me.

This isn't a beta for a new game. This is a game that's now 5 years old, with players who have created characters, builds, and formed entire playstyles around the game in its current state. Massive, sweeping changes should not be used to balance at this point. All they end up doing is screwing players, forcing them to completely redesign characters and/or relearn the entire game, because the devs can't contain their excitement.

Also remember that this was a problem they caused themselves. DoT's were fine during Elsweyr, they had a place in both PvE and PvP, and nobody complained. It was only when they started gradually buffing DoT's with the audit, and massively buffed Soul Trap & Entropy, that the complaints rolled in.

ZoS has a history of this, so this isn't an isolated problem. Swift and the resulting speed meta, Rune Cage and the slew of nerfs that gradually gutted the skill, Sloads and the resulting AIDS-pocalypse. They were warned within the first week of the PTS, but never listened, and everything the players warned them about came true.

3 months later, when it comes time to addressing their mistake, they miss the mark, again, and rather than addressing the one problem skill/set/mechanic, they blindly flail the nerf bat around, screwing the whole landscape equally.

People act the way they do because it's clear that Zenimax doesn't know what they're doing. It's clear that Zenimax doesn't know the impact of their changes, beyond basic spreadsheet maths against a target dummy parse. And, you know what, that's fine. Their job isn't to play the game, it's to make the game, so not knowing this is fine, so long as you trust the people that do.

The problem with Zenimax, though, is, they don't trust anybody else except themselves. Players having to deal with the *** changes that won't get addressed until 3+ months down the road? Step aside. Class reps that are more or less pros at what the do, able to complete the content that even the devs themselves can't complete, in a third of the time it takes the devs to attempt the content? *** outta here.

It's Zenimax's way, or the highway. Unfortunately, Zenimax's way is the way to a bland, homogenised game that has more in common with a pile of sloppy goop, than an actually fun MMORPG that has depth in its character building.