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Should Important Buffs Last Longer?
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Caim12✭✭Agree, rebuffing is very boring in this game, they should by longer in minutes not seconds. Many my friends dont wanna play this game bcs of nonstop rebuffing.2 -
Wandering_Immigrant✭✭✭✭If you honestly would use a worse skill over a clearly better one, just because you can choose it, i can and will not take you serious anymore. Thats ridiculous.
Your Argument would make sense when there would be fair skill choices, to REALLY choose from, but thats not the case in this game. Some skills are just MUCH better then others, and some are not worth using at all.
Again, noone uses the skill Flare over Mage Light or Expert Hunter in solo PvP, just because it exposes stealth. It costs 5,4k magicka, takes a long time to hit the ground, HAS to hit the ground, doesnt follow you, and you already need to be alliance line rank 7 to use it. There may be an illusion of choice, but there is no realistic choice to be made on most skills.
Edit: Also, i dont see how giving diffrent skills the same active time takes away your "choice". Care to explain to me, since im clearly missing something.
The choices being made aren't just about what abilities, sets or items you use to buff up. While that's a piece of the overall picture, the short and variable duration on buffs is more about the choices you make during a fight. When you have your opponent "on the ropes" but your buffs are all wearing off do you take the time to rebuff knowing that this will give your opponent a reprieve to do the same and possibly recover, or do you assume you have them dead to rights and go for the kill? Both options can backfire so which do you choose? You might recast one or two important ones in the moment without going through a full buff cycle, but which ones you choose in that moment is another choice you're making, as was not recasting them sooner even if it would have been overcasting to avoid being in that situation.
The variance in length is there to make things less predictable. If all buffs lasted the same 30+ seconds, then all fights would just be pre-buffs, then go at it like rock em sock em robots for 30 seconds until both parties back off to re-buff and repeat.Edited by Wandering_Immigrant on September 13, 2021 7:15AM2 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭Honestly, I think it would be healthier for the game if all buffs/debuffs lasted longer. I'm sure some would see some downside to this, as the game's pace of combat could slow down some, but the positives, IMO, outweigh the negatives. As I see it, the positives would be:
1. Less instant calculations the server has to perform because under the current system, your damage/damage modifiers and other stats are CONSTANTLY in flux due to the fact that our buffs/debuffs are relatively short-term (anywhere from 2-15 seconds). This would probably help with the performance issues in both PVP and PVE.
2. You won't need super-crisp rotations to maximize DPS. People who are running characters who can hit in the 90K+ dps range thread the needle of is sustainable DPS output in order to maximize their DPS and get the most out of their sustain. Making buffs/debuffs last longer make it easier to for players to have strong rotations while having to worry less about sustain. Overall, I think this would help raise the DPS floor without doing any harm to the DPS ceiling, which is a goal Zos has been trying to achieve over the past year +
3. It narrows the gap between the top tier/elite groups and the people who are just trying to find a way to get through Vet content, particularly Trials. Often in Vet trials, you are trying to maintain the best uptimes on all of your buffs to make it easier to clear content. By increasing the duration, your making harder/vet content more accessible because players won't necessarily have to focus their play on maintaining uptimes on their buffs/debuffs (i.e, less micromanaging of combat).
I'm sure a lot of people would complain that this slows the pace of combat but - so what? That is your flavor of preference for combat and ESO's combat system has never been my favorite feature about the game. Some people like the fast action button mash combat and others don't. If the pace of combat slowed, but overall server performance improved, I'd say that is a pretty darned good trade off.1 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭I think we are good, average duration of 20 sec is enough in all types of content.
Extending duration of buffs might make messy things like:
- some skills, Rally or Netch are good example.
- force to rework good chunk of sets.
- force to rework permanent boosts like FG or MG Crit Boost.
- totally destroy importance of potion.
- disrupt even more already high dps results.
- i am not even elaborating on pvp... ^^
0 -
Andre_Noir✭✭✭✭
Elaborate what ? That Cyro looks like a buffer party most of the time ?Ippokrates wrote: »- i am not even elaborating on pvp... ^^1 -
Ippokrates✭✭✭✭✭Andre_Noir wrote: »
Elaborate what ? That Cyro looks like a buffer party most of the time ?Ippokrates wrote: »- i am not even elaborating on pvp... ^^
Yeah, now extend those buffs three times -_-0 -
Larcomar✭✭✭✭✭I never quite got why mmo's went the clickity click route. I started off in Everquest; back then, your major buffs lasted *an hour and a half* (KEI). Even your minors ones like spirit of the wolf etc were like 20 minutes. Rather than *6* seconds.
I mean, I get it. Players like to press buttons and all. But do they really like pressing the same button every 15 seconds just to keep their armor up? My stamcro might be pretty strong but god is does he feel like hard work to play. I feel like most of what I'm doing is keeping buffs up and playing the corpse mini game; actually killing things is almost a distraction.
I honestly just wish they'd make them toggleable so I can get on and play the damn game or failing that standardise them all at like 30 seconds so they fit a rotation. You'd still have to make choices about what to slot, but it would be a lot more fun. Probably easier on the server too
edit - Obv you'd have a constant upkeep cost attached, which would come out of your sustain budget. But that's not that different from now where you have to factor it in anyway.
Edited by Larcomar on September 14, 2021 10:01AM2 -
K9002✭✭✭✭✭I honestly just wish they'd make them toggleable so I can get on and play the damn game or failing that standardise them all at like 30 seconds so they fit a rotation. You'd still have to make choices about what to slot, but it would be a lot more fun. Probably easier on the server too
You should read some of the PvP discussions. The biggest fans of short buffs are gankers. Their whole playstyle revolves around waiting for an enemy's buffs to expire or be on their last 1-2 seconds. Then they jump in to stunlock and shred them to bits, before they can properly break free, dodge roll and then either buff, shield or heal on the first responsive global cooldown.
Personally I'd prefer to see similar buff durations as in Skyrim. For example armor spells (Oakflesh, etc.) started at 60s and could be extended up to around 200s. Bound weapons were 120s base. Admittedly in Morrowind and Oblivion the standard spells lasted 20s or 30s but they could also be worn as permanent enchantments without sacrificing any offensive or defensive power. If I could choose between ~350 magicka or a permanent buff on smaller armor pieces, I'd pick the buff almost every time.1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I never quite got why mmo's went the clickity click route. I started off in Everquest; back then, your major buffs lasted *an hour and a half* (KEI). Even your minors ones like spirit of the wolf etc were like 20 minutes. Rather than *6* seconds.
I mean, I get it. Players like to press buttons and all. But do they really like pressing the same button every 15 seconds just to keep their armor up? My stamcro might be pretty strong but god is does he feel like hard work to play. I feel like most of what I'm doing is keeping buffs up and playing the corpse mini game; actually killing things is almost a distraction.
I honestly just wish they'd make them toggleable so I can get on and play the damn game or failing that standardise them all at like 30 seconds so they fit a rotation. You'd still have to make choices about what to slot, but it would be a lot more fun. Probably easier on the server too
edit - Obv you'd have a constant upkeep cost attached, which would come out of your sustain budget. But that's not that different from now where you have to factor it in anyway.
Because it's one of the biggest differences between a player who is skilled and a player who is not. Players who are lazy or are bad at maintaining their buffs are considerable easier to kill in cyrodiil and do noticeably less DPS in PvE.
It's a basic choice in just about every single fantasy game ever. Do I press a button/ use a skill right now for immediate short term benefit/effect or do I take a chance a press a button / use a skill that does no damage or has an immediate effect on the enemy for a greater long term benefit. It's a fundamental part of strategy.Edited by Joy_Division on September 14, 2021 1:40PM1 -
Larcomar✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »I never quite got why mmo's went the clickity click route. I started off in Everquest; back then, your major buffs lasted *an hour and a half* (KEI). Even your minors ones like spirit of the wolf etc were like 20 minutes. Rather than *6* seconds.
I mean, I get it. Players like to press buttons and all. But do they really like pressing the same button every 15 seconds just to keep their armor up? My stamcro might be pretty strong but god is does he feel like hard work to play. I feel like most of what I'm doing is keeping buffs up and playing the corpse mini game; actually killing things is almost a distraction.
I honestly just wish they'd make them toggleable so I can get on and play the damn game or failing that standardise them all at like 30 seconds so they fit a rotation. You'd still have to make choices about what to slot, but it would be a lot more fun. Probably easier on the server too
edit - Obv you'd have a constant upkeep cost attached, which would come out of your sustain budget. But that's not that different from now where you have to factor it in anyway.
Because it's one of the biggest differences between a player who is skilled and a player who is not. Players who are lazy or are bad at maintaining their buffs are considerable easier to kill in cyrodiil and do noticeably less DPS in PvE.
It's a basic choice in just about every single fantasy game ever. Do I press a button/ use a skill right now for immediate short term benefit/effect or do I take a chance a press a button / use a skill that does no damage or has an immediate effect on the enemy for a greater long term benefit. It's a fundamental part of strategy.
Cool! I must be a super skilled player then. Because it sometimes feels like that's most of what i do in session.
Tbh, the accolade rings a bit hollow though. I mean, "ESO - the game where your skill is measured by your ability to maintain yourr buffs. Every 15 seconds..." No wonder people think this is game is zero skill! Bit unfair, but you can see the pt.2 -
Red_Feather✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I prefered how in other games you could maintain a buff but it required upkeep.
So toggle on a power buff and it would lower your energy regen or your max energy.
Toggle on too many of them and you were juggling resources.1 -
K9002✭✭✭✭✭Make trap force last 20 seconds kthx, 18 irks my OCD
It can be quite horrible with other buffs too. Like on sorcerer. Surge will always be 33s and you pair that with either 15s or 23s morphs of Lightning Form, or Balance for 30s AND on top of that you choose between 18s Trap or 36s Accel. Sometimes I wonder how do they come up with all these numbers, especially when some classes are fairly standardized and come with 20s buffs.1 -
six2fall✭✭✭✭Think shields need an increased duration or better yet they could last till you take enough damage to break it0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »I never quite got why mmo's went the clickity click route. I started off in Everquest; back then, your major buffs lasted *an hour and a half* (KEI). Even your minors ones like spirit of the wolf etc were like 20 minutes. Rather than *6* seconds.
I mean, I get it. Players like to press buttons and all. But do they really like pressing the same button every 15 seconds just to keep their armor up? My stamcro might be pretty strong but god is does he feel like hard work to play. I feel like most of what I'm doing is keeping buffs up and playing the corpse mini game; actually killing things is almost a distraction.
I honestly just wish they'd make them toggleable so I can get on and play the damn game or failing that standardise them all at like 30 seconds so they fit a rotation. You'd still have to make choices about what to slot, but it would be a lot more fun. Probably easier on the server too
edit - Obv you'd have a constant upkeep cost attached, which would come out of your sustain budget. But that's not that different from now where you have to factor it in anyway.
Because it's one of the biggest differences between a player who is skilled and a player who is not. Players who are lazy or are bad at maintaining their buffs are considerable easier to kill in cyrodiil and do noticeably less DPS in PvE.
It's a basic choice in just about every single fantasy game ever. Do I press a button/ use a skill right now for immediate short term benefit/effect or do I take a chance a press a button / use a skill that does no damage or has an immediate effect on the enemy for a greater long term benefit. It's a fundamental part of strategy.
And the "skill" you describe contributes to terrible experiences in PVE where the players you describe as "lazy or bad at maintaining their buffs" queue for DPS and do horrible numbers that drag the group down.
I'd rather see ZOS let those players toss a bunch of permanent buffs on their back bar, which gives them a higher baseline of power, and allows them to simplify their rotations so they can actually put out sufficient damage.
I believe ESO would be much more fun if we had more players who can sufficiently contribute in grouped content rather than have so much of grouped content require "skilled" players who maintain short timers.1 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭in all the mmo's i have played, buff's always lasted 1 hour or more.
that includes shields, defenses, and invisibility.
I have seen food buffs and some buffs that helped combat but have also seen in many MMORPGs shorter-term buffs including some that last mere seconds.
Adding to this. I have also seen combat buffs that last only 10 or 20 seconds that have long cooldowns, as long as 10 minutes.Edited by Amottica on September 17, 2021 4:57AM0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I never quite got why mmo's went the clickity click route. I started off in Everquest; back then, your major buffs lasted *an hour and a half* (KEI). Even your minors ones like spirit of the wolf etc were like 20 minutes. Rather than *6* seconds.
I mean, I get it. Players like to press buttons and all. But do they really like pressing the same button every 15 seconds just to keep their armor up? My stamcro might be pretty strong but god is does he feel like hard work to play. I feel like most of what I'm doing is keeping buffs up and playing the corpse mini game; actually killing things is almost a distraction.
I honestly just wish they'd make them toggleable so I can get on and play the damn game or failing that standardise them all at like 30 seconds so they fit a rotation. You'd still have to make choices about what to slot, but it would be a lot more fun. Probably easier on the server too
edit - Obv you'd have a constant upkeep cost attached, which would come out of your sustain budget. But that's not that different from now where you have to factor it in anyway.
Because it's one of the biggest differences between a player who is skilled and a player who is not. Players who are lazy or are bad at maintaining their buffs are considerable easier to kill in cyrodiil and do noticeably less DPS in PvE.
It's a basic choice in just about every single fantasy game ever. Do I press a button/ use a skill right now for immediate short term benefit/effect or do I take a chance a press a button / use a skill that does no damage or has an immediate effect on the enemy for a greater long term benefit. It's a fundamental part of strategy.
And the "skill" you describe contributes to terrible experiences in PVE where the players you describe as "lazy or bad at maintaining their buffs" queue for DPS and do horrible numbers that drag the group down.
I'd rather see ZOS let those players toss a bunch of permanent buffs on their back bar, which gives them a higher baseline of power, and allows them to simplify their rotations so they can actually put out sufficient damage.
I believe ESO would be much more fun if we had more players who can sufficiently contribute in grouped content rather than have so much of grouped content require "skilled" players who maintain short timers.
The issue is a player who is not putting out sufficient damage because they have to decide what buffs they will use and how they will get them will still not put out sufficient damage if the buffs were long term. They may see an increase in damage but Zenimax tends to adjust the playing field to what our damage output is or they try. It is in the best interest in the game to keep control of power creep. That means a good player today will still be a good player. A player that struggles will still struggle.
Overall, I do agree with that person you quoted. However, I do respect we all have opinions which is pretty much what we are expressing here.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I never quite got why mmo's went the clickity click route. I started off in Everquest; back then, your major buffs lasted *an hour and a half* (KEI). Even your minors ones like spirit of the wolf etc were like 20 minutes. Rather than *6* seconds.
I mean, I get it. Players like to press buttons and all. But do they really like pressing the same button every 15 seconds just to keep their armor up? My stamcro might be pretty strong but god is does he feel like hard work to play. I feel like most of what I'm doing is keeping buffs up and playing the corpse mini game; actually killing things is almost a distraction.
I honestly just wish they'd make them toggleable so I can get on and play the damn game or failing that standardise them all at like 30 seconds so they fit a rotation. You'd still have to make choices about what to slot, but it would be a lot more fun. Probably easier on the server too
edit - Obv you'd have a constant upkeep cost attached, which would come out of your sustain budget. But that's not that different from now where you have to factor it in anyway.
Because it's one of the biggest differences between a player who is skilled and a player who is not. Players who are lazy or are bad at maintaining their buffs are considerable easier to kill in cyrodiil and do noticeably less DPS in PvE.
It's a basic choice in just about every single fantasy game ever. Do I press a button/ use a skill right now for immediate short term benefit/effect or do I take a chance a press a button / use a skill that does no damage or has an immediate effect on the enemy for a greater long term benefit. It's a fundamental part of strategy.
And the "skill" you describe contributes to terrible experiences in PVE where the players you describe as "lazy or bad at maintaining their buffs" queue for DPS and do horrible numbers that drag the group down.
I'd rather see ZOS let those players toss a bunch of permanent buffs on their back bar, which gives them a higher baseline of power, and allows them to simplify their rotations so they can actually put out sufficient damage.
I believe ESO would be much more fun if we had more players who can sufficiently contribute in grouped content rather than have so much of grouped content require "skilled" players who maintain short timers.
The issue is a player who is not putting out sufficient damage because they have to decide what buffs they will use and how they will get them will still not put out sufficient damage if the buffs were long term. They may see an increase in damage but Zenimax tends to adjust the playing field to what our damage output is or they try. It is in the best interest in the game to keep control of power creep. That means a good player today will still be a good player. A player that struggles will still struggle.
Overall, I do agree with that person you quoted. However, I do respect we all have opinions which is pretty much what we are expressing here.
I think my main position is that I'd like to see players who struggle to cycle through buffs fast enough given the option to equip toggles/buffs that would remain active at all times on their off-bar. (Think, like a Warden who could have Green Lotus, Bull Netch, Ice Fortress, Camo Hunter, etc. all active on their backbar -- effectively giving the buffs/skills to the player, while they can focus on their front bar for damaging skills).
This could significantly raise the floor for someone who struggles to maintain buffs, and as someone mentioned above in post #45, you could have some tradeoffs for having permanent/toggled buffs, but the idea would be that if done well enough, permanent buffs/toggles could serve to raise the floor for the players who simply struggle to cycle through their skills fast enough to maintain buffs, and at least put them in position to sufficiently contribute in group content.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I never quite got why mmo's went the clickity click route. I started off in Everquest; back then, your major buffs lasted *an hour and a half* (KEI). Even your minors ones like spirit of the wolf etc were like 20 minutes. Rather than *6* seconds.
I mean, I get it. Players like to press buttons and all. But do they really like pressing the same button every 15 seconds just to keep their armor up? My stamcro might be pretty strong but god is does he feel like hard work to play. I feel like most of what I'm doing is keeping buffs up and playing the corpse mini game; actually killing things is almost a distraction.
I honestly just wish they'd make them toggleable so I can get on and play the damn game or failing that standardise them all at like 30 seconds so they fit a rotation. You'd still have to make choices about what to slot, but it would be a lot more fun. Probably easier on the server too
edit - Obv you'd have a constant upkeep cost attached, which would come out of your sustain budget. But that's not that different from now where you have to factor it in anyway.
Because it's one of the biggest differences between a player who is skilled and a player who is not. Players who are lazy or are bad at maintaining their buffs are considerable easier to kill in cyrodiil and do noticeably less DPS in PvE.
It's a basic choice in just about every single fantasy game ever. Do I press a button/ use a skill right now for immediate short term benefit/effect or do I take a chance a press a button / use a skill that does no damage or has an immediate effect on the enemy for a greater long term benefit. It's a fundamental part of strategy.
And the "skill" you describe contributes to terrible experiences in PVE where the players you describe as "lazy or bad at maintaining their buffs" queue for DPS and do horrible numbers that drag the group down.
I'd rather see ZOS let those players toss a bunch of permanent buffs on their back bar, which gives them a higher baseline of power, and allows them to simplify their rotations so they can actually put out sufficient damage.
I believe ESO would be much more fun if we had more players who can sufficiently contribute in grouped content rather than have so much of grouped content require "skilled" players who maintain short timers.
The issue is a player who is not putting out sufficient damage because they have to decide what buffs they will use and how they will get them will still not put out sufficient damage if the buffs were long term. They may see an increase in damage but Zenimax tends to adjust the playing field to what our damage output is or they try. It is in the best interest in the game to keep control of power creep. That means a good player today will still be a good player. A player that struggles will still struggle.
Overall, I do agree with that person you quoted. However, I do respect we all have opinions which is pretty much what we are expressing here.
I think my main position is that I'd like to see players who struggle to cycle through buffs fast enough given the option to equip toggles/buffs that would remain active at all times on their off-bar. (Think, like a Warden who could have Green Lotus, Bull Netch, Ice Fortress, Camo Hunter, etc. all active on their backbar -- effectively giving the buffs/skills to the player, while they can focus on their front bar for damaging skills).
This could significantly raise the floor for someone who struggles to maintain buffs, and as someone mentioned above in post #45, you could have some tradeoffs for having permanent/toggled buffs, but the idea would be that if done well enough, permanent buffs/toggles could serve to raise the floor for the players who simply struggle to cycle through their skills fast enough to maintain buffs, and at least put them in position to sufficiently contribute in group content.
I do see where the intentions are fabulous. This issue is pretty much everything that was intended to raise the floor raised the ceiling. In this case, it would reduce the GCDs top players use to refresh buffs which would increase their damage as well. This would then lead to power creep which more often than not leads to the latest trial being called to that power creep.
Again, I think the reasoning, the desire is a great idea. However, I think it a better course of action is to deal with the root cause of why we see some players doing a fraction of the damage top players do. Personally, I think the first layer of this foundation is the sets they choose to use as well as their overall build.
A guildmate recently asked me what they can do to improve their damage. One thing I looked at was their gear which leaned heavily towards sustain instead of damage. Myself and another helped them get set up in some easily obtainable damage-focused gear and the next day they commented how much their damage increased. Most games do not have the selection of gear we have here so it is harder for a player to get very wrong gear and sustain gear gives an initial false impression that things are going well since they do not run out of resources. Granted, I think this can go deeper such as skills and how they use them.
Anyhow, just my thoughts on the subject. Apologies for the rambling.1 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I never quite got why mmo's went the clickity click route. I started off in Everquest; back then, your major buffs lasted *an hour and a half* (KEI). Even your minors ones like spirit of the wolf etc were like 20 minutes. Rather than *6* seconds.
I mean, I get it. Players like to press buttons and all. But do they really like pressing the same button every 15 seconds just to keep their armor up? My stamcro might be pretty strong but god is does he feel like hard work to play. I feel like most of what I'm doing is keeping buffs up and playing the corpse mini game; actually killing things is almost a distraction.
I honestly just wish they'd make them toggleable so I can get on and play the damn game or failing that standardise them all at like 30 seconds so they fit a rotation. You'd still have to make choices about what to slot, but it would be a lot more fun. Probably easier on the server too
edit - Obv you'd have a constant upkeep cost attached, which would come out of your sustain budget. But that's not that different from now where you have to factor it in anyway.
Because it's one of the biggest differences between a player who is skilled and a player who is not. Players who are lazy or are bad at maintaining their buffs are considerable easier to kill in cyrodiil and do noticeably less DPS in PvE.
It's a basic choice in just about every single fantasy game ever. Do I press a button/ use a skill right now for immediate short term benefit/effect or do I take a chance a press a button / use a skill that does no damage or has an immediate effect on the enemy for a greater long term benefit. It's a fundamental part of strategy.
And the "skill" you describe contributes to terrible experiences in PVE where the players you describe as "lazy or bad at maintaining their buffs" queue for DPS and do horrible numbers that drag the group down.
I'd rather see ZOS let those players toss a bunch of permanent buffs on their back bar, which gives them a higher baseline of power, and allows them to simplify their rotations so they can actually put out sufficient damage.
I believe ESO would be much more fun if we had more players who can sufficiently contribute in grouped content rather than have so much of grouped content require "skilled" players who maintain short timers.
The issue is a player who is not putting out sufficient damage because they have to decide what buffs they will use and how they will get them will still not put out sufficient damage if the buffs were long term. They may see an increase in damage but Zenimax tends to adjust the playing field to what our damage output is or they try. It is in the best interest in the game to keep control of power creep. That means a good player today will still be a good player. A player that struggles will still struggle.
Overall, I do agree with that person you quoted. However, I do respect we all have opinions which is pretty much what we are expressing here.
I think my main position is that I'd like to see players who struggle to cycle through buffs fast enough given the option to equip toggles/buffs that would remain active at all times on their off-bar. (Think, like a Warden who could have Green Lotus, Bull Netch, Ice Fortress, Camo Hunter, etc. all active on their backbar -- effectively giving the buffs/skills to the player, while they can focus on their front bar for damaging skills).
This could significantly raise the floor for someone who struggles to maintain buffs, and as someone mentioned above in post #45, you could have some tradeoffs for having permanent/toggled buffs, but the idea would be that if done well enough, permanent buffs/toggles could serve to raise the floor for the players who simply struggle to cycle through their skills fast enough to maintain buffs, and at least put them in position to sufficiently contribute in group content.
I do see where the intentions are fabulous. This issue is pretty much everything that was intended to raise the floor raised the ceiling. In this case, it would reduce the GCDs top players use to refresh buffs which would increase their damage as well. This would then lead to power creep which more often than not leads to the latest trial being called to that power creep.
Again, I think the reasoning, the desire is a great idea. However, I think it a better course of action is to deal with the root cause of why we see some players doing a fraction of the damage top players do. Personally, I think the first layer of this foundation is the sets they choose to use as well as their overall build.
A guildmate recently asked me what they can do to improve their damage. One thing I looked at was their gear which leaned heavily towards sustain instead of damage. Myself and another helped them get set up in some easily obtainable damage-focused gear and the next day they commented how much their damage increased. Most games do not have the selection of gear we have here so it is harder for a player to get very wrong gear and sustain gear gives an initial false impression that things are going well since they do not run out of resources. Granted, I think this can go deeper such as skills and how they use them.
Anyhow, just my thoughts on the subject. Apologies for the rambling.
I love the rambling, haha, it gets us all thinking.
Yeah, I hear you about raising the ceiling, which is kinda where I was headed with the reference to what another person was saying in post #45 about tradeoffs. I think the balance to attempt to strike would be to work the tradeoffs into the game in a way where it would not be advantageous for players near the ceiling to utilize permanent buffs/toggles on the back bar because they would take too much of a DPS hit (to their already excellent numbers) from the tradoffs.
I think this would be achieved by creating tradeoffs where the permanent buffs/toggles would reduce one's sustain or power (doesn't have to be locked into sustain/power specifically, just using them as examples for this hypothetical) enough where the ceiling players who excel with rotations would be encouraged to simply maintain what they currently do, but the players who really struggle with buffs/rotations see a significant boost to their floor.
This, ideally, and if possible, would maintain the "skill" of those who excel at maintaining their buffs, while giving enough of a boost to those near the floor to better contribute in grouped content. That would be the dream scenario (in my view), anyway.0 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I never quite got why mmo's went the clickity click route. I started off in Everquest; back then, your major buffs lasted *an hour and a half* (KEI). Even your minors ones like spirit of the wolf etc were like 20 minutes. Rather than *6* seconds.
I mean, I get it. Players like to press buttons and all. But do they really like pressing the same button every 15 seconds just to keep their armor up? My stamcro might be pretty strong but god is does he feel like hard work to play. I feel like most of what I'm doing is keeping buffs up and playing the corpse mini game; actually killing things is almost a distraction.
I honestly just wish they'd make them toggleable so I can get on and play the damn game or failing that standardise them all at like 30 seconds so they fit a rotation. You'd still have to make choices about what to slot, but it would be a lot more fun. Probably easier on the server too
edit - Obv you'd have a constant upkeep cost attached, which would come out of your sustain budget. But that's not that different from now where you have to factor it in anyway.
Because it's one of the biggest differences between a player who is skilled and a player who is not. Players who are lazy or are bad at maintaining their buffs are considerable easier to kill in cyrodiil and do noticeably less DPS in PvE.
It's a basic choice in just about every single fantasy game ever. Do I press a button/ use a skill right now for immediate short term benefit/effect or do I take a chance a press a button / use a skill that does no damage or has an immediate effect on the enemy for a greater long term benefit. It's a fundamental part of strategy.
And the "skill" you describe contributes to terrible experiences in PVE where the players you describe as "lazy or bad at maintaining their buffs" queue for DPS and do horrible numbers that drag the group down.
I'd rather see ZOS let those players toss a bunch of permanent buffs on their back bar, which gives them a higher baseline of power, and allows them to simplify their rotations so they can actually put out sufficient damage.
I believe ESO would be much more fun if we had more players who can sufficiently contribute in grouped content rather than have so much of grouped content require "skilled" players who maintain short timers.
The issue is a player who is not putting out sufficient damage because they have to decide what buffs they will use and how they will get them will still not put out sufficient damage if the buffs were long term. They may see an increase in damage but Zenimax tends to adjust the playing field to what our damage output is or they try. It is in the best interest in the game to keep control of power creep. That means a good player today will still be a good player. A player that struggles will still struggle.
Overall, I do agree with that person you quoted. However, I do respect we all have opinions which is pretty much what we are expressing here.
I think my main position is that I'd like to see players who struggle to cycle through buffs fast enough given the option to equip toggles/buffs that would remain active at all times on their off-bar. (Think, like a Warden who could have Green Lotus, Bull Netch, Ice Fortress, Camo Hunter, etc. all active on their backbar -- effectively giving the buffs/skills to the player, while they can focus on their front bar for damaging skills).
This could significantly raise the floor for someone who struggles to maintain buffs, and as someone mentioned above in post #45, you could have some tradeoffs for having permanent/toggled buffs, but the idea would be that if done well enough, permanent buffs/toggles could serve to raise the floor for the players who simply struggle to cycle through their skills fast enough to maintain buffs, and at least put them in position to sufficiently contribute in group content.
I do see where the intentions are fabulous. This issue is pretty much everything that was intended to raise the floor raised the ceiling. In this case, it would reduce the GCDs top players use to refresh buffs which would increase their damage as well. This would then lead to power creep which more often than not leads to the latest trial being called to that power creep.
Again, I think the reasoning, the desire is a great idea. However, I think it a better course of action is to deal with the root cause of why we see some players doing a fraction of the damage top players do. Personally, I think the first layer of this foundation is the sets they choose to use as well as their overall build.
A guildmate recently asked me what they can do to improve their damage. One thing I looked at was their gear which leaned heavily towards sustain instead of damage. Myself and another helped them get set up in some easily obtainable damage-focused gear and the next day they commented how much their damage increased. Most games do not have the selection of gear we have here so it is harder for a player to get very wrong gear and sustain gear gives an initial false impression that things are going well since they do not run out of resources. Granted, I think this can go deeper such as skills and how they use them.
Anyhow, just my thoughts on the subject. Apologies for the rambling.
I love the rambling, haha, it gets us all thinking.
Yeah, I hear you about raising the ceiling, which is kinda where I was headed with the reference to what another person was saying in post #45 about tradeoffs. I think the balance to attempt to strike would be to work the tradeoffs into the game in a way where it would not be advantageous for players near the ceiling to utilize permanent buffs/toggles on the back bar because they would take too much of a DPS hit (to their already excellent numbers) from the tradoffs.
I think this would be achieved by creating tradeoffs where the permanent buffs/toggles would reduce one's sustain or power (doesn't have to be locked into sustain/power specifically, just using them as examples for this hypothetical) enough where the ceiling players who excel with rotations would be encouraged to simply maintain what they currently do, but the players who really struggle with buffs/rotations see a significant boost to their floor.
This, ideally, and if possible, would maintain the "skill" of those who excel at maintaining their buffs, while giving enough of a boost to those near the floor to better contribute in grouped content. That would be the dream scenario (in my view), anyway.
Taking a step back. If maintaining the buffs is really the only issue then a buff tracker that notes when a buff ends so the player knows to start it again will take care of this. Yes, the player has to press a button but it is more like training to do it right instead of a crutch that essentially does it for you. I think something like this is part of the base game tracker but I could be wrong. I had/have something that flashes on my screen when something ends (buffs and dots) and I am pretty sure I set this up before using any addons ( I could be wrong as that was a bit ago).
I suggest this because I expect doing the actual weapon swap is only an issue for someone that does not have full use of their hands and that is a different story than someone who is not very skilled with gameplay. I have played with people who were challenged with the physical side of playing the game and they find ways to overcome the obstacle, but this is very much a tangent.
0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I never quite got why mmo's went the clickity click route. I started off in Everquest; back then, your major buffs lasted *an hour and a half* (KEI). Even your minors ones like spirit of the wolf etc were like 20 minutes. Rather than *6* seconds.
I mean, I get it. Players like to press buttons and all. But do they really like pressing the same button every 15 seconds just to keep their armor up? My stamcro might be pretty strong but god is does he feel like hard work to play. I feel like most of what I'm doing is keeping buffs up and playing the corpse mini game; actually killing things is almost a distraction.
I honestly just wish they'd make them toggleable so I can get on and play the damn game or failing that standardise them all at like 30 seconds so they fit a rotation. You'd still have to make choices about what to slot, but it would be a lot more fun. Probably easier on the server too
edit - Obv you'd have a constant upkeep cost attached, which would come out of your sustain budget. But that's not that different from now where you have to factor it in anyway.
Because it's one of the biggest differences between a player who is skilled and a player who is not. Players who are lazy or are bad at maintaining their buffs are considerable easier to kill in cyrodiil and do noticeably less DPS in PvE.
It's a basic choice in just about every single fantasy game ever. Do I press a button/ use a skill right now for immediate short term benefit/effect or do I take a chance a press a button / use a skill that does no damage or has an immediate effect on the enemy for a greater long term benefit. It's a fundamental part of strategy.
And the "skill" you describe contributes to terrible experiences in PVE where the players you describe as "lazy or bad at maintaining their buffs" queue for DPS and do horrible numbers that drag the group down.
I'd rather see ZOS let those players toss a bunch of permanent buffs on their back bar, which gives them a higher baseline of power, and allows them to simplify their rotations so they can actually put out sufficient damage.
I believe ESO would be much more fun if we had more players who can sufficiently contribute in grouped content rather than have so much of grouped content require "skilled" players who maintain short timers.
The issue is a player who is not putting out sufficient damage because they have to decide what buffs they will use and how they will get them will still not put out sufficient damage if the buffs were long term. They may see an increase in damage but Zenimax tends to adjust the playing field to what our damage output is or they try. It is in the best interest in the game to keep control of power creep. That means a good player today will still be a good player. A player that struggles will still struggle.
Overall, I do agree with that person you quoted. However, I do respect we all have opinions which is pretty much what we are expressing here.
I think my main position is that I'd like to see players who struggle to cycle through buffs fast enough given the option to equip toggles/buffs that would remain active at all times on their off-bar. (Think, like a Warden who could have Green Lotus, Bull Netch, Ice Fortress, Camo Hunter, etc. all active on their backbar -- effectively giving the buffs/skills to the player, while they can focus on their front bar for damaging skills).
This could significantly raise the floor for someone who struggles to maintain buffs, and as someone mentioned above in post #45, you could have some tradeoffs for having permanent/toggled buffs, but the idea would be that if done well enough, permanent buffs/toggles could serve to raise the floor for the players who simply struggle to cycle through their skills fast enough to maintain buffs, and at least put them in position to sufficiently contribute in group content.
I do see where the intentions are fabulous. This issue is pretty much everything that was intended to raise the floor raised the ceiling. In this case, it would reduce the GCDs top players use to refresh buffs which would increase their damage as well. This would then lead to power creep which more often than not leads to the latest trial being called to that power creep.
Again, I think the reasoning, the desire is a great idea. However, I think it a better course of action is to deal with the root cause of why we see some players doing a fraction of the damage top players do. Personally, I think the first layer of this foundation is the sets they choose to use as well as their overall build.
A guildmate recently asked me what they can do to improve their damage. One thing I looked at was their gear which leaned heavily towards sustain instead of damage. Myself and another helped them get set up in some easily obtainable damage-focused gear and the next day they commented how much their damage increased. Most games do not have the selection of gear we have here so it is harder for a player to get very wrong gear and sustain gear gives an initial false impression that things are going well since they do not run out of resources. Granted, I think this can go deeper such as skills and how they use them.
Anyhow, just my thoughts on the subject. Apologies for the rambling.
I love the rambling, haha, it gets us all thinking.
Yeah, I hear you about raising the ceiling, which is kinda where I was headed with the reference to what another person was saying in post #45 about tradeoffs. I think the balance to attempt to strike would be to work the tradeoffs into the game in a way where it would not be advantageous for players near the ceiling to utilize permanent buffs/toggles on the back bar because they would take too much of a DPS hit (to their already excellent numbers) from the tradoffs.
I think this would be achieved by creating tradeoffs where the permanent buffs/toggles would reduce one's sustain or power (doesn't have to be locked into sustain/power specifically, just using them as examples for this hypothetical) enough where the ceiling players who excel with rotations would be encouraged to simply maintain what they currently do, but the players who really struggle with buffs/rotations see a significant boost to their floor.
This, ideally, and if possible, would maintain the "skill" of those who excel at maintaining their buffs, while giving enough of a boost to those near the floor to better contribute in grouped content. That would be the dream scenario (in my view), anyway.
Taking a step back. If maintaining the buffs is really the only issue
Though I think it's significant, I wouldn't call maintaining buffs the "only" issue, as there are a bunch of factors that can contribute to players struggling with DPS in group content (for example: LA weaving, not knowing mechanics, less than ideal sets/builds, etc.).
I focus on/advocate for the option of permanent buffs/toggles because for players who struggle with cycling through buffs it simplifies the rotation (reducing the number of buttons to cycle through -- with a tradeoff/cost, of course, to prevent raising the ceiling for highly skilled players) and offers a hopefully reasonable raising of the floor for players who otherwise would see dead/wasted skills from their 12 available skills slots that have a lot of downtime.
Instead of dead skills not being used because a player cannot cycle through the buffs sufficiently enough, those wasted skill slots are now permanent buffs/toggles that give the player some value (again, with reasonable enough tradoffs so as to not raise the ceiling for those at the top).
I've noticed the popularity of "One Bar Builds" on some of the highest-viewed ESO content creators on Youtube, and there's definitely a large enough population of players who, for what I assume to be many different reasons, gravitate towards limiting themselves to 5 Skills and an ultimate. These players will never compete for the absolute ceiling, but I imagine giving them access to those 5 other wasted slots and ultimate (with permanent buffs/toggles), could at least offer a raising of their floors. This of course isn't to say that everyone who struggles is only using one bar, it's just an observation/example of an area where perhaps we could see some beneficial raising of the floor (again, of course, while attempting to balance it in a way that it wouldn't raise ceiling).0 -
ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
We have closed this topic as it was originally created in October 2019. In many cases, it's better to create a new thread on a topic that you want to discuss as opposed to bumping one that is rather old.
Thank you for your understanding0
This discussion has been closed.