Negates and silence needs a "buff"

Iskiab

technohic wrote: »

Negates not much of a problem from players but gotdamn! Can we just take it out of the NPC arsenal already?

Really the mag vs stam balance in PVP has become magicka more group support. stam more self. Mostly. Few exceptions

I agree with this but it’s mostly player setup. In general your average stamina setup gets weaker the more players there are, but it doesn’t have to be that way.

KappaKid83

Ashanne wrote: »

wow that logic thou... so stamina who can dodge a lot of times is immune and magicka classes can and should only "get out of the way".
How is that balance for u?

if for magicka the only option is get out, it should be for stam too simple as that

Run about 15K stam on your Mag toon, going to have to sacrifice some magicka in place of it, either by your food or some stats/glyphs, but you will be able to dodge out as a Mag character pretty easily then.

Ashanne

sly007 wrote: »

Ashanne wrote: »

Make negate and silence work against stamina too. its kinda time after so many years, for obvious balance

Also, can we tone down the guard negates in keeps PLEASE. Its absolutely ridiculous, every 8-10 seconds a negate from a guard is dropped

Are you saying players should be unable to sprint or roll dodge out of negate?

UHHHHH??? are u reading? im referring to skills on ur bar...u know those 12 squares on the bottom of ur UI...u know those?

Ashanne

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Ashanne wrote: »

wow that logic thou... so stamina who can dodge a lot of times is immune and magicka classes can and should only "get out of the way".
How is that balance for u?

if for magicka the only option is get out, it should be for stam too simple as that

Run about 15K stam on your Mag toon, going to have to sacrifice some magicka in place of it, either by your food or some stats/glyphs, but you will be able to dodge out as a Mag character pretty easily then.

omg... please teach me how to build..PLEASE...u dont even know how much stam i run but yet u come here with suggestions...

AGAIN...how is it fair for stamina to use all their skills (almost, except some class buffs, and ults) in a negate and magicka can only sprint or dodge....
AGAIN... put some thought in logic and fairness/equality ..

Expert

make negate a mobile ultimate, so once people roll out of negate i can have the negate chase them!

Ashanne

Expert wrote: »

make negate a mobile ultimate, so once people roll out of negate i can have the negate chase them!

sure dude....any more brilliant ideas....get Gilliam in here too

Imryll

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Alternative area-of-denial ideas:

• Roll dodging inside caltrops deals extra damage
• Unmorphed version of Trapping Webs deals no damage, but doubles stamina cost of your next physical ability and prevents your next heavy attack from restoring stamina

Interesting suggestions, although I think that a negate equivalent for stam should also be a class ultimate rather than a regular ability available to all players. Maybe make one of the Negate morphs be anti-stam rather than anti-mag and let sorcs choose.

CambionDaemon

Negate should have a slight lingering effect after you leave the area, but that is about it.

If you think about it, Stamina should actually have Negate, while Magicka should have 'Disarm'.

universal_wrath

VaranisArano wrote: »

The ability of stamina healing and damage to work in a Negate is pretty crucial counterplay, especially when dealing with the keep NPCs.

Take that away, and the only counterplay is "get out of the way". Which is a pretty big problem in the narrow confines of a keep, or when a guard throws one through the door and takes down siege shields while oils are pouring down overhead.

Making Negates impact stamina would be a huge buff for Sorcs in Cyrodiil, who can now shut down everyone in a group for a crucial couple seconds - and would greatly empower organized raids who,can afford to,stack negates.

So basically what you are saying is, negate only counter is to play stam spec, which is in itself bad design. Easiest counter to negate is to leave the aoe, since it does not immoblize or snare. As for buff for negate, I honestly think negate should affect stamina players. Its a n ultimate, it should negate all specs, becayse of easy counter and the fact that you can not spam it. I don't see a problem for sorcs to provide group play in ultimate.

Blinkin8r

It'd be nice with how insanely strong siege is if Negate also negated seige entirely. You have so many groups now who will just set up 20 meatbags and fire them at the door of a keep it'd be nice to throw a couple negates down and be able to get through.

KappaKid83

Ashanne wrote: »

KappaKid83 wrote: »

Ashanne wrote: »

wow that logic thou... so stamina who can dodge a lot of times is immune and magicka classes can and should only "get out of the way".
How is that balance for u?

if for magicka the only option is get out, it should be for stam too simple as that

Run about 15K stam on your Mag toon, going to have to sacrifice some magicka in place of it, either by your food or some stats/glyphs, but you will be able to dodge out as a Mag character pretty easily then.

omg... please teach me how to build..PLEASE...u dont even know how much stam i run but yet u come here with suggestions...

AGAIN...how is it fair for stamina to use all their skills (almost, except some class buffs, and ults) in a negate and magicka can only sprint or dodge....
AGAIN... put some thought in logic and fairness/equality ..

LOL how triggered are you. I was merely pointing out there are ways for magicka toons to get out of negates and then begin casting skills again like nothing happened. I never once said DO THIS IN YOUR BUILD so calm down please. Also, I play a Sorc, and literally only my sorc, every day I am on. I think negate is fine the way it is, having counterplay to any skill is imperative to the state of PVP, you're really grasping at thin air here.

sly007

Ashanne wrote: »

sly007 wrote: »

Ashanne wrote: »

Make negate and silence work against stamina too. its kinda time after so many years, for obvious balance

Also, can we tone down the guard negates in keeps PLEASE. Its absolutely ridiculous, every 8-10 seconds a negate from a guard is dropped

Are you saying players should be unable to sprint or roll dodge out of negate?

UHHHHH??? are u reading? im referring to skills on ur bar...u know those 12 squares on the bottom of ur UI...u know those?

You literally said "make negate and silence work against stamina too." Dodging, sprinting, and blocking cost stamina. You didnt say anything about negating stamina abilities.

VaranisArano

universal_wrath wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The ability of stamina healing and damage to work in a Negate is pretty crucial counterplay, especially when dealing with the keep NPCs.

Take that away, and the only counterplay is "get out of the way". Which is a pretty big problem in the narrow confines of a keep, or when a guard throws one through the door and takes down siege shields while oils are pouring down overhead.

Making Negates impact stamina would be a huge buff for Sorcs in Cyrodiil, who can now shut down everyone in a group for a crucial couple seconds - and would greatly empower organized raids who,can afford to,stack negates.

So basically what you are saying is, negate only counter is to play stam spec, which is in itself bad design. Easiest counter to negate is to leave the aoe, since it does not immoblize or snare. As for buff for negate, I honestly think negate should affect stamina players. Its a n ultimate, it should negate all specs, becayse of easy counter and the fact that you can not spam it. I don't see a problem for sorcs to provide group play in ultimate.

Sorcs already provide group play with Negate as it is. They don't need a massive buff by adding a Disarm effect on top of the Silencing effect they already have. That's doubling the effectiveness of a single ultimate. 2 effects for the price of 1 ultimate (3 effects on Suppresion Field, really.)

IMO, the best way to make the magicka vs stamina balance issue easier would be to introduce a separate ultimate or a different morph that gives the Disarm effect, which would effect stamina in the same way as negate effects magicka. Give the Disarm ultimate to Keep NPCs like they have Negate, and then Magicka and Stamina players can be equally miserable.

Making the Disarm a separate ultimate or exclusive morph choice for Sorcs means that organized raids have to make a choice or bring extra player(s) in order to stack Negate + Disarm. That's in contrast to your buff suggestion, where organized raids just get a massive buff to every sorc they run with no downside whatsoever.

So, uh, if your intent was to make organized raids and ball groups even stronger, you go ahead and keep asking for Negate to get a free buff with Disarm!

universal_wrath

VaranisArano wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The ability of stamina healing and damage to work in a Negate is pretty crucial counterplay, especially when dealing with the keep NPCs.

Take that away, and the only counterplay is "get out of the way". Which is a pretty big problem in the narrow confines of a keep, or when a guard throws one through the door and takes down siege shields while oils are pouring down overhead.

Making Negates impact stamina would be a huge buff for Sorcs in Cyrodiil, who can now shut down everyone in a group for a crucial couple seconds - and would greatly empower organized raids who,can afford to,stack negates.

So basically what you are saying is, negate only counter is to play stam spec, which is in itself bad design. Easiest counter to negate is to leave the aoe, since it does not immoblize or snare. As for buff for negate, I honestly think negate should affect stamina players. Its a n ultimate, it should negate all specs, becayse of easy counter and the fact that you can not spam it. I don't see a problem for sorcs to provide group play in ultimate.

Sorcs already provide group play with Negate as it is. They don't need a massive buff by adding a Disarm effect on top of the Silencing effect they already have. That's doubling the effectiveness of a single ultimate. 2 effects for the price of 1 ultimate (3 effects on Suppresion Field, really.)

IMO, the best way to make the magicka vs stamina balance issue easier would be to introduce a separate ultimate or a different morph that gives the Disarm effect, which would effect stamina in the same way as negate effects magicka. Give the Disarm ultimate to Keep NPCs like they have Negate, and then Magicka and Stamina players can be equally miserable.

Making the Disarm a separate ultimate or exclusive morph choice for Sorcs means that organized raids have to make a choice or bring extra player(s) in order to stack Negate + Disarm. That's in contrast to your buff suggestion, where organized raids just get a massive buff to every sorc they run with no downside whatsoever.

So, uh, if your intent was to make organized raids and ball groups even stronger, you go ahead and keep asking for Negate to get a free buff with Disarm!

It might be true that the ultimate will be buffed and sorcs will be more "viable in group raid" but that also mean you have to drop other classes that provide something else. Do you need more sorcs in group or need more of other classes? Though I don't really know how pvp raids works, so I will stop at that.

While inside of negate, you are cc immume, after you leave, you are no longer immune. That means, if a magicka spec would dodge roll out of negate, because it is the fastest way to avoid death, they are still at risk of being stun and that would be double stam ina drain on them. On the other hand, stam spec and kill you inside your negate abd they don't have a way of support for their friendly magicka specs inside negate as new aoe vigor was nerfed quite a bit and no other support skill that cost stamina exsit in the game beside guard and you don't wamt to use it unless you build for it. I find that totally unfair. Least think they can do is add major snare on immoblization for duration to have stamina spec leave outside the negate while they dtill can use their skill. Especially if you choose the healing morph of negate, as a stamina spec you have nothing to fear from beimg inside the negate.

WillhelmBlack

So you're 1v4 on your mag char and a NB hits you from behind with incap and you're silenced, there's 0 counterplay to that btw.

You want that buffed? Be more specific with the title please.

SipofMaim

VaranisArano wrote: »

IMO, the best way to make the magicka vs stamina balance issue easier would be to introduce a separate ultimate or a different morph that gives the Disarm effect, which would effect stamina in the same way as negate effects magicka. Give the Disarm ultimate to Keep NPCs like they have Negate, and then Magicka and Stamina players can be equally miserable.

And they all lived happily ever after. 🌈

universal_wrath

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

So you're 1v4 on your mag char and a NB hits you from behind with incap and you're silenced, there's 0 counterplay to that btw.

You want that buffed? Be more specific with the title please.

I think he want incap slience to work on stamina specs as well, not just magicka, because as far as I know, stamina specs don't care if they were silenced or not on live, in fact, free cc for the duration.

VaranisArano

universal_wrath wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The ability of stamina healing and damage to work in a Negate is pretty crucial counterplay, especially when dealing with the keep NPCs.

Take that away, and the only counterplay is "get out of the way". Which is a pretty big problem in the narrow confines of a keep, or when a guard throws one through the door and takes down siege shields while oils are pouring down overhead.

Making Negates impact stamina would be a huge buff for Sorcs in Cyrodiil, who can now shut down everyone in a group for a crucial couple seconds - and would greatly empower organized raids who,can afford to,stack negates.

So basically what you are saying is, negate only counter is to play stam spec, which is in itself bad design. Easiest counter to negate is to leave the aoe, since it does not immoblize or snare. As for buff for negate, I honestly think negate should affect stamina players. Its a n ultimate, it should negate all specs, becayse of easy counter and the fact that you can not spam it. I don't see a problem for sorcs to provide group play in ultimate.

Sorcs already provide group play with Negate as it is. They don't need a massive buff by adding a Disarm effect on top of the Silencing effect they already have. That's doubling the effectiveness of a single ultimate. 2 effects for the price of 1 ultimate (3 effects on Suppresion Field, really.)

IMO, the best way to make the magicka vs stamina balance issue easier would be to introduce a separate ultimate or a different morph that gives the Disarm effect, which would effect stamina in the same way as negate effects magicka. Give the Disarm ultimate to Keep NPCs like they have Negate, and then Magicka and Stamina players can be equally miserable.

Making the Disarm a separate ultimate or exclusive morph choice for Sorcs means that organized raids have to make a choice or bring extra player(s) in order to stack Negate + Disarm. That's in contrast to your buff suggestion, where organized raids just get a massive buff to every sorc they run with no downside whatsoever.

So, uh, if your intent was to make organized raids and ball groups even stronger, you go ahead and keep asking for Negate to get a free buff with Disarm!

It might be true that the ultimate will be buffed and sorcs will be more "viable in group raid" but that also mean you have to drop other classes that provide something else. Do you need more sorcs in group or need more of other classes? Though I don't really know how pvp raids works, so I will stop at that.

While inside of negate, you are cc immume, after you leave, you are no longer immune. That means, if a magicka spec would dodge roll out of negate, because it is the fastest way to avoid death, they are still at risk of being stun and that would be double stam ina drain on them. On the other hand, stam spec and kill you inside your negate abd they don't have a way of support for their friendly magicka specs inside negate as new aoe vigor was nerfed quite a bit and no other support skill that cost stamina exsit in the game beside guard and you don't wamt to use it unless you build for it. I find that totally unfair. Least think they can do is add major snare on immoblization for duration to have stamina spec leave outside the negate while they dtill can use their skill. Especially if you choose the healing morph of negate, as a stamina spec you have nothing to fear from beimg inside the negate.

Thank you for explaining that you don't have a lot of experience with how PVP raids use Sorcs and their Negates. Unfortunately, its really clear that you don't have that experience fighting in or against PVP raids, and without that experience, I don't think I'm likely to convey the impact this would have on Cyrodiil gameplay. (Most of my Cyrodiil experience is playing a magicka healer in an organized raid, so I have plenty of experience with being on the receiving end of Negates.)

I'd like to not do a Negate 101 here, but I'll just point out Sorcs are plenty viable in PVP Raids, player Negates are commonly used by raids, and that no Stamina Player ever wants to hang out in a Suppression Field (the most common morph in PVP because of the damage) because the Negate sure as hell is not the only damage coming their way. That's the equivalent of a PVEer "standing in stupid" while a boss is launching his big attack at them.

NPC negates are a different story, and that's why I'd be fine with a separate Disarm ultimate given to NPCs. With a group, stamina players give the group counterplay options. But the difficulty difference in soloing a resources with a stamina and magicka character is ludicrous and could use some changes, IMO. A separate Disarm effect would go a long way to address that.


So instead let's talk about buffing Negate into a 2 for 1 ultimate.

When I was questing with Stam Sorc ages ago, I decided to use Suppression Field as my ultimate. It was very bi-polar in its usefulness. Against magicka themed bosses, it shut them down completely and I just slaughtered them! Against stamina bosses, it just did damage and I still had to fight them. How unfair, right?

Well...if you make my Negate a 2 for 1 and give me a Disarm on top of the Silence, do you see how that just doubled my effectiveness? For no downsides?

If the Negate and Disarm were on two different morphs, I'd have to make a choice about which one I wanted to do. If I wanted both, I'd have to team up with someone else who had access to that effect. That's much more in line with current balance than "Hey, lets double the effectiveness of Negate for no downsides."


I like the idea of a Disarm effect. I just want it separate from the Negate, because giving Sorcs both abilities in a single ultimate is way overpowered from how Negate currently works.

And no one has given a solid answer for why Sorcs ought to get the double effect except for "Well, I want my Negate to make Stamina players miserable too. Buff Sorc."

IMO, Negate is unfair not because it only impacts magicka, but because there isnt an equivalent effect that shuts down Stamina. We don't need to buff Negate to effect everyone because that's overpowered. We need a separate Disarm effect that impacts Stamina the way Negate impacts Magicka.

universal_wrath

VaranisArano wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The ability of stamina healing and damage to work in a Negate is pretty crucial counterplay, especially when dealing with the keep NPCs.

Take that away, and the only counterplay is "get out of the way". Which is a pretty big problem in the narrow confines of a keep, or when a guard throws one through the door and takes down siege shields while oils are pouring down overhead.

Making Negates impact stamina would be a huge buff for Sorcs in Cyrodiil, who can now shut down everyone in a group for a crucial couple seconds - and would greatly empower organized raids who,can afford to,stack negates.

So basically what you are saying is, negate only counter is to play stam spec, which is in itself bad design. Easiest counter to negate is to leave the aoe, since it does not immoblize or snare. As for buff for negate, I honestly think negate should affect stamina players. Its a n ultimate, it should negate all specs, becayse of easy counter and the fact that you can not spam it. I don't see a problem for sorcs to provide group play in ultimate.

Sorcs already provide group play with Negate as it is. They don't need a massive buff by adding a Disarm effect on top of the Silencing effect they already have. That's doubling the effectiveness of a single ultimate. 2 effects for the price of 1 ultimate (3 effects on Suppresion Field, really.)

IMO, the best way to make the magicka vs stamina balance issue easier would be to introduce a separate ultimate or a different morph that gives the Disarm effect, which would effect stamina in the same way as negate effects magicka. Give the Disarm ultimate to Keep NPCs like they have Negate, and then Magicka and Stamina players can be equally miserable.

Making the Disarm a separate ultimate or exclusive morph choice for Sorcs means that organized raids have to make a choice or bring extra player(s) in order to stack Negate + Disarm. That's in contrast to your buff suggestion, where organized raids just get a massive buff to every sorc they run with no downside whatsoever.

So, uh, if your intent was to make organized raids and ball groups even stronger, you go ahead and keep asking for Negate to get a free buff with Disarm!

It might be true that the ultimate will be buffed and sorcs will be more "viable in group raid" but that also mean you have to drop other classes that provide something else. Do you need more sorcs in group or need more of other classes? Though I don't really know how pvp raids works, so I will stop at that.

While inside of negate, you are cc immume, after you leave, you are no longer immune. That means, if a magicka spec would dodge roll out of negate, because it is the fastest way to avoid death, they are still at risk of being stun and that would be double stam ina drain on them. On the other hand, stam spec and kill you inside your negate abd they don't have a way of support for their friendly magicka specs inside negate as new aoe vigor was nerfed quite a bit and no other support skill that cost stamina exsit in the game beside guard and you don't wamt to use it unless you build for it. I find that totally unfair. Least think they can do is add major snare on immoblization for duration to have stamina spec leave outside the negate while they dtill can use their skill. Especially if you choose the healing morph of negate, as a stamina spec you have nothing to fear from beimg inside the negate.

Thank you for explaining that you don't have a lot of experience with how PVP raids use Sorcs and their Negates. Unfortunately, its really clear that you don't have that experience fighting in or against PVP raids, and without that experience, I don't think I'm likely to convey the impact this would have on Cyrodiil gameplay. (Most of my Cyrodiil experience is playing a magicka healer in an organized raid, so I have plenty of experience with being on the receiving end of Negates.)

I'd like to not do a Negate 101 here, but I'll just point out Sorcs are plenty viable in PVP Raids, player Negates are commonly used by raids, and that no Stamina Player ever wants to hang out in a Suppression Field (the most common morph in PVP because of the damage) because the Negate sure as hell is not the only damage coming their way. That's the equivalent of a PVEer "standing in stupid" while a boss is launching his big attack at them.

NPC negates are a different story, and that's why I'd be fine with a separate Disarm ultimate given to NPCs. With a group, stamina players give the group counterplay options. But the difficulty difference in soloing a resources with a stamina and magicka character is ludicrous and could use some changes, IMO. A separate Disarm effect would go a long way to address that.


So instead let's talk about buffing Negate into a 2 for 1 ultimate.

When I was questing with Stam Sorc ages ago, I decided to use Suppression Field as my ultimate. It was very bi-polar in its usefulness. Against magicka themed bosses, it shut them down completely and I just slaughtered them! Against stamina bosses, it just did damage and I still had to fight them. How unfair, right?

Well...if you make my Negate a 2 for 1 and give me a Disarm on top of the Silence, do you see how that just doubled my effectiveness? For no downsides?

If the Negate and Disarm were on two different morphs, I'd have to make a choice about which one I wanted to do. If I wanted both, I'd have to team up with someone else who had access to that effect. That's much more in line with current balance than "Hey, lets double the effectiveness of Negate for no downsides."


I like the idea of a Disarm effect. I just want it separate from the Negate, because giving Sorcs both abilities in a single ultimate is way overpowered from how Negate currently works.

And no one has given a solid answer for why Sorcs ought to get the double effect except for "Well, I want my Negate to make Stamina players miserable too. Buff Sorc."

IMO, Negate is unfair not because it only impacts magicka, but because there isnt an equivalent effect that shuts down Stamina. We don't need to buff Negate to effect everyone because that's overpowered. We need a separate Disarm effect that impacts Stamina the way Negate impacts Magicka.

I don't do any pvp raid in cyrodiil but I reguraly play BGs, sometime I get into ball group fights. Either permafrost or negate are usually the desicive ultimate to make a team wins.

f047ys3v3n

Back in the day, before stam had strong heals, when mag had big shields, and therefore when you saw more mag users in cyr, I remember negate being a very decisive ultimate in pvp fights. This was compounded by the AOE caps and therefore the push for groups to stay tight with the healers in stack instead for spreading. Now, I really don't see it being decisive much. More often it has less effect than if the sorc had just dropped an elemental rage to stack up damage, particularly, an ice one that might slow as well.

It's really mostly a case of group composition. The vast majority of your strong groups are overwhelmingly stam and their main healers, often the only mag toons, are going to be mostly spread and away from group center because they are usually the squishiest. All you typically get with a negate is a momentary effect on a couple resto / destro mixed role toons who aid in heals while sieging but fight when in combat and might be in group but even they will be receiving heals from the main healers who are usually not.

I certainly think that negate is of little use as is given the current PVP environment. I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing. Most abilities in ESO are not worth slotting and that goes double for most ultimates. The bigger stam / mag issue is that roll dodge is the best skill in the game and you don't even have to slot it. Mobility is still a mag issue as well though that has been 80% remedied with the race against time change. Now both have access to a skill the drops the endless slows in the game.

Qbiken

I certainly think that negate is of little use as is given the current PVP environment

Negate is imo the strongest PvP ultimate in the game, especially for group play. If I had a gold coin for everytime I wish I've had a negate to turn the fight in my favor I'd be able to outbid some of the Craglorn guilds for their trader spot.

Ragnarock41

Sure lets buff the most impactful and arguably strongest group pvp ult in the game.

What could go wrong?