Magdk pvp downside?

Iskiab

BlackMadara wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

@Iskiab You can approach sustain in a few ways, and I suggest using multiple instead of stacking into one category.

I don't suggest shalk for sustain. You get 46 resource per ult point, shalk gives 0.67 ult/second, so that's equal to 61 recovery (per 2 seconds). Blood spawn is a good option, with max 2.33 ult/second, so 215 recovery if ult dropped on cd. Base ult gen is equal to 184 recovery.

A source of minor magicka steal is extremely useful. 300 mag/second, so 600 recovery. Another potentially useful skill is meditate.

Applying burning gives 500 magicka back. Using a destro staff, charged weapon, or both, could yield a nice amount of magicka, although it's up to chance. Theorically, a destro staff using 2 fire dots, a fire enchant, and whip should yield an average of 200 recovery.

Cost reduction is nice due to high cost utility skills. Breton or certain sets. I don't suggest stacking into raw mag recovery, due to not having any passives that increase that stat. You can however, and still find success. Other sets that give bursts of resource can work if played around.

Heavy attacks with destro staves are a bit too slow for reliable recovery. Resto staves give a larger amount of magicka, however, and can be combined with hots to prevent being burst down.

Overall, I try to combine all of my sources of recovery to hit at least 2000 theoretically. My stat page mag recovery is 900. I have adjusted my playstyle to accommodate this low stat recovery with the other means of magicka gain I listed above.

@Bdawwg Building tanky in light is better than building damage in heavy. The only real reasons to go heavy are for off stat return, in this case stamina, and increased healing.

For magDK, you get enough stamina return with the helping hands passive and battle roar, depending on playstyle of course. If building for block, heavy is good

MagDK also has a variety of means to heal in combat. From flame lash, burning embers, inhale, as offensive examples, to coag blood and cauterize as defensive examples, there are plenty of means to heal.

Overall, MagDK has options of play that can be quite successful without devoting raw stats. This is what people mean by saying that a well played and built DK is extremely strong.

@BlackMadara

That’s really interesting. All my favourite build tactics are coming from a magblade and it sounds like DKs are totally different and I’ll need to adapt more than I thought.

My thinking as a pvp healer was to use the DW BRP MH Nirn and OH decisive to increase my Ult gain for sustain. Jorvlund as my main set, shalk only on my back bar or not using a monster set. That way every cast of blade cloak will also give major protection along with evasion, with the duration extended by jorvlund.

Another wacky option I was thinking about is the master’s sword and board instead and using puncture too to add minor protection on top of everything else. It depends on how many shards I can spam to keep my stamina up to use stamina abilities. I also really like Symbiosis to get around melee range on stamina weapons, but still benefit from the much higher weapon damage, since it turns all light attacks into ranged heals.... but it does rule out an effective heavy attack for sustain.

I’m thinking jorvlund is a no-brainer as a DK pvp healer. What would you recommend to add on top of that? Willpower and weapon sets, since willpower is getting a buff, 2x 5 piece sets or something different? Using Symbiosis means heavy attacking with a resto staff is unavailable unfortunately.

Oh another thing, I’ve been using bloodspawn on almost all my builds because it looks great on paper. I’ve been going through CMX and it looks like it only has a 20-30% uptime, it’s hard to get an accurate read since the % uptime on CMX is tied to how long you’re in combat and cyrodiil can be buggy with keeping you in combat. The range I found on CMX was 6-30%.

I don't have any experience in the healer role, but I can try to make some suggestions.

I'm pretty sure having shalk on backbar would mean you only get the ult when on backbar. It isn't an effective back bar set. As for bloodspawn, I'd assume you aren't in the thick of combat, where bloodspawn really shines. Being hit by multiple attacks will keep a high uptime on the proc.

I'm not sure why you are using Jorvlund. What buffs are you looking to keep up? If you do want to keep using that set, I suggest Naga Shaman. It Grant's minor mending and vitality on shield cast, for which use fragmented shield for major mending. These types of buffs are best used with HoTs. Used in conjunction with radiating regen will mean very strong HoT power for a group. Tbh, Naga is a very strong set for DK in general if one wants to use HoTs, take full advantage of healing multipliers, and stay in light armor.

That is an excellent idea, thank you very much! BRP DW gives major protection and major evasion when you cast blade cloak. It has limited value in most builds because the major protection is only 4 seconds.

Add jorvlund and suddenly I’ll be getting really good uptime on major protection, major evasion, minor mending, minor vitality, major vitality and major mending. Blade cloak costs stamina, but helping hands is really powerful.

BlackMadara

Iskiab wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

@Iskiab You can approach sustain in a few ways, and I suggest using multiple instead of stacking into one category.

I don't suggest shalk for sustain. You get 46 resource per ult point, shalk gives 0.67 ult/second, so that's equal to 61 recovery (per 2 seconds). Blood spawn is a good option, with max 2.33 ult/second, so 215 recovery if ult dropped on cd. Base ult gen is equal to 184 recovery.

A source of minor magicka steal is extremely useful. 300 mag/second, so 600 recovery. Another potentially useful skill is meditate.

Applying burning gives 500 magicka back. Using a destro staff, charged weapon, or both, could yield a nice amount of magicka, although it's up to chance. Theorically, a destro staff using 2 fire dots, a fire enchant, and whip should yield an average of 200 recovery.

Cost reduction is nice due to high cost utility skills. Breton or certain sets. I don't suggest stacking into raw mag recovery, due to not having any passives that increase that stat. You can however, and still find success. Other sets that give bursts of resource can work if played around.

Heavy attacks with destro staves are a bit too slow for reliable recovery. Resto staves give a larger amount of magicka, however, and can be combined with hots to prevent being burst down.

Overall, I try to combine all of my sources of recovery to hit at least 2000 theoretically. My stat page mag recovery is 900. I have adjusted my playstyle to accommodate this low stat recovery with the other means of magicka gain I listed above.

@Bdawwg Building tanky in light is better than building damage in heavy. The only real reasons to go heavy are for off stat return, in this case stamina, and increased healing.

For magDK, you get enough stamina return with the helping hands passive and battle roar, depending on playstyle of course. If building for block, heavy is good

MagDK also has a variety of means to heal in combat. From flame lash, burning embers, inhale, as offensive examples, to coag blood and cauterize as defensive examples, there are plenty of means to heal.

Overall, MagDK has options of play that can be quite successful without devoting raw stats. This is what people mean by saying that a well played and built DK is extremely strong.

@BlackMadara

That’s really interesting. All my favourite build tactics are coming from a magblade and it sounds like DKs are totally different and I’ll need to adapt more than I thought.

My thinking as a pvp healer was to use the DW BRP MH Nirn and OH decisive to increase my Ult gain for sustain. Jorvlund as my main set, shalk only on my back bar or not using a monster set. That way every cast of blade cloak will also give major protection along with evasion, with the duration extended by jorvlund.

Another wacky option I was thinking about is the master’s sword and board instead and using puncture too to add minor protection on top of everything else. It depends on how many shards I can spam to keep my stamina up to use stamina abilities. I also really like Symbiosis to get around melee range on stamina weapons, but still benefit from the much higher weapon damage, since it turns all light attacks into ranged heals.... but it does rule out an effective heavy attack for sustain.

I’m thinking jorvlund is a no-brainer as a DK pvp healer. What would you recommend to add on top of that? Willpower and weapon sets, since willpower is getting a buff, 2x 5 piece sets or something different? Using Symbiosis means heavy attacking with a resto staff is unavailable unfortunately.

Oh another thing, I’ve been using bloodspawn on almost all my builds because it looks great on paper. I’ve been going through CMX and it looks like it only has a 20-30% uptime, it’s hard to get an accurate read since the % uptime on CMX is tied to how long you’re in combat and cyrodiil can be buggy with keeping you in combat. The range I found on CMX was 6-30%.

I don't have any experience in the healer role, but I can try to make some suggestions.

I'm pretty sure having shalk on backbar would mean you only get the ult when on backbar. It isn't an effective back bar set. As for bloodspawn, I'd assume you aren't in the thick of combat, where bloodspawn really shines. Being hit by multiple attacks will keep a high uptime on the proc.

I'm not sure why you are using Jorvlund. What buffs are you looking to keep up? If you do want to keep using that set, I suggest Naga Shaman. It Grant's minor mending and vitality on shield cast, for which use fragmented shield for major mending. These types of buffs are best used with HoTs. Used in conjunction with radiating regen will mean very strong HoT power for a group. Tbh, Naga is a very strong set for DK in general if one wants to use HoTs, take full advantage of healing multipliers, and stay in light armor.

That is an excellent idea, thank you very much! BRP DW gives major protection and major evasion when you cast blade cloak. It has limited value in most builds because the major protection is only 4 seconds.

Add jorvlund and suddenly I’ll be getting really good uptime on major protection, major evasion, minor mending, minor vitality, major vitality and major mending. Blade cloak costs stamina, but helping hands is really powerful.

I see, that is nice synergy, and add that to the fact that you can back bar Naga and cast fragmented on that bar to get the buffs. Hope it works well!

Iskiab

BlackMadara wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

@Iskiab You can approach sustain in a few ways, and I suggest using multiple instead of stacking into one category.

I don't suggest shalk for sustain. You get 46 resource per ult point, shalk gives 0.67 ult/second, so that's equal to 61 recovery (per 2 seconds). Blood spawn is a good option, with max 2.33 ult/second, so 215 recovery if ult dropped on cd. Base ult gen is equal to 184 recovery.

A source of minor magicka steal is extremely useful. 300 mag/second, so 600 recovery. Another potentially useful skill is meditate.

Applying burning gives 500 magicka back. Using a destro staff, charged weapon, or both, could yield a nice amount of magicka, although it's up to chance. Theorically, a destro staff using 2 fire dots, a fire enchant, and whip should yield an average of 200 recovery.

Cost reduction is nice due to high cost utility skills. Breton or certain sets. I don't suggest stacking into raw mag recovery, due to not having any passives that increase that stat. You can however, and still find success. Other sets that give bursts of resource can work if played around.

Heavy attacks with destro staves are a bit too slow for reliable recovery. Resto staves give a larger amount of magicka, however, and can be combined with hots to prevent being burst down.

Overall, I try to combine all of my sources of recovery to hit at least 2000 theoretically. My stat page mag recovery is 900. I have adjusted my playstyle to accommodate this low stat recovery with the other means of magicka gain I listed above.

@Bdawwg Building tanky in light is better than building damage in heavy. The only real reasons to go heavy are for off stat return, in this case stamina, and increased healing.

For magDK, you get enough stamina return with the helping hands passive and battle roar, depending on playstyle of course. If building for block, heavy is good

MagDK also has a variety of means to heal in combat. From flame lash, burning embers, inhale, as offensive examples, to coag blood and cauterize as defensive examples, there are plenty of means to heal.

Overall, MagDK has options of play that can be quite successful without devoting raw stats. This is what people mean by saying that a well played and built DK is extremely strong.

@BlackMadara

That’s really interesting. All my favourite build tactics are coming from a magblade and it sounds like DKs are totally different and I’ll need to adapt more than I thought.

My thinking as a pvp healer was to use the DW BRP MH Nirn and OH decisive to increase my Ult gain for sustain. Jorvlund as my main set, shalk only on my back bar or not using a monster set. That way every cast of blade cloak will also give major protection along with evasion, with the duration extended by jorvlund.

Another wacky option I was thinking about is the master’s sword and board instead and using puncture too to add minor protection on top of everything else. It depends on how many shards I can spam to keep my stamina up to use stamina abilities. I also really like Symbiosis to get around melee range on stamina weapons, but still benefit from the much higher weapon damage, since it turns all light attacks into ranged heals.... but it does rule out an effective heavy attack for sustain.

I’m thinking jorvlund is a no-brainer as a DK pvp healer. What would you recommend to add on top of that? Willpower and weapon sets, since willpower is getting a buff, 2x 5 piece sets or something different? Using Symbiosis means heavy attacking with a resto staff is unavailable unfortunately.

Oh another thing, I’ve been using bloodspawn on almost all my builds because it looks great on paper. I’ve been going through CMX and it looks like it only has a 20-30% uptime, it’s hard to get an accurate read since the % uptime on CMX is tied to how long you’re in combat and cyrodiil can be buggy with keeping you in combat. The range I found on CMX was 6-30%.

I don't have any experience in the healer role, but I can try to make some suggestions.

I'm pretty sure having shalk on backbar would mean you only get the ult when on backbar. It isn't an effective back bar set. As for bloodspawn, I'd assume you aren't in the thick of combat, where bloodspawn really shines. Being hit by multiple attacks will keep a high uptime on the proc.

I'm not sure why you are using Jorvlund. What buffs are you looking to keep up? If you do want to keep using that set, I suggest Naga Shaman. It Grant's minor mending and vitality on shield cast, for which use fragmented shield for major mending. These types of buffs are best used with HoTs. Used in conjunction with radiating regen will mean very strong HoT power for a group. Tbh, Naga is a very strong set for DK in general if one wants to use HoTs, take full advantage of healing multipliers, and stay in light armor.

That is an excellent idea, thank you very much! BRP DW gives major protection and major evasion when you cast blade cloak. It has limited value in most builds because the major protection is only 4 seconds.

Add jorvlund and suddenly I’ll be getting really good uptime on major protection, major evasion, minor mending, minor vitality, major vitality and major mending. Blade cloak costs stamina, but helping hands is really powerful.

I see, that is nice synergy, and add that to the fact that you can back bar Naga and cast fragmented on that bar to get the buffs. Hope it works well!

The only downside is light and heavy attacks. That’s why I use Symbiosis on my back bar, it changes all light and heavy attacks into ranged heals regardless of weapon. The other advantage is DW gets a ridiculous amount more of base weapon damage then a resto staff, add nirnhoned MH and powered OH and it’s even more pronounced. Using DW instead of resto is the equivalent difference of maybe 400 spell damage.

There isn’t the same synergy with Symbiosis and DW as there is with Wardens or NBs, but I’m hoping it’ll work well on a MagDK. I’ve been using it to good effect on my NB for a while.

NekoN3ko

gepe87 wrote: »

I played a bit magDK and i found a bit hard to counter dots, especially stamDK poisons

Dont worry you will be able to out heal those DoTs w/ yours once it's nerfed just like the good ol days.

Akinos

Koensol wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

My only gripe with magdk as a class is a lack of reliable hots. Cauterize is a burst heal every 5 sec, burning embers takes 8 seconds, the rest is all burst heals apart from cinder storm which isnt viable. I love running double destro on DK, but tbh even having a resto staff doesn't cut it on magdk in this cancerous dot meta. Otherwise the class seems in a good place.

You can force the burning embers heal by hitting a target you already hit with burning embers.

Still doesn't make it a HoT. Only good HoT magdk has is from flame lash, but imo molten whip is simply needed if you want any form of burst on magdk.

Sorry i misread the post, but youre right, it's not a heal over time. But do dk's really need a class HoT with all the huge burst heals it has? I don't think so. The only really major issue with magdk's is being slow af, and sometimes sustain, depending on build.

If magdk's had more HoT's, were faster and had better sustain they would be the best class at everything. would be no reason to play any other class imo.

ThePedge

MagDKs are not bad by any stretch. As someone who mainly plays Nightblade I see the frustration over wings nerf.

I hated wings but you have almost no ranged options as a MagDK besides LA and Generic dots. You can chainpull, or chain gapclose which is less favoured, but that's almost it.

In close quarter battles they are very strong and can shut you down with Petrify, dots and whip. Outside of that they can be tanky but not going to give you much of a problem.

The only other class I see with this issue is Warden - not counting necro as I've never played it, or see much in cyro, speaks volumes itself - which still has Dive, stamden can use bow too.

Koensol

Akinos wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

My only gripe with magdk as a class is a lack of reliable hots. Cauterize is a burst heal every 5 sec, burning embers takes 8 seconds, the rest is all burst heals apart from cinder storm which isnt viable. I love running double destro on DK, but tbh even having a resto staff doesn't cut it on magdk in this cancerous dot meta. Otherwise the class seems in a good place.

You can force the burning embers heal by hitting a target you already hit with burning embers.

Still doesn't make it a HoT. Only good HoT magdk has is from flame lash, but imo molten whip is simply needed if you want any form of burst on magdk.

Sorry i misread the post, but youre right, it's not a heal over time. But do dk's really need a class HoT with all the huge burst heals it has? I don't think so. The only really major issue with magdk's is being slow af, and sometimes sustain, depending on build.

If magdk's had more HoT's, were faster and had better sustain they would be the best class at everything. would be no reason to play any other class imo.

I would glady change burning embers into a hot that heals on every damage tick in stead of only at the end. The problem with only having burst heals is that dots (formerly it was mainly bleeds) will completely counter you. Especially in this meta you sometimes find yourself spamming coagulating blood without much time to go back on offensive. Magplar used to have the same issue.

Ofcourse this issue isnt as relevant in a 1v1, but in small scale or BGs you are being pumped full of dots and without hots your offensive window becomes rather small.

Bdawwg

How would you make a light armour build more tanky?

Iskiab

Bdawwg wrote: »

How would you make a light armour build more tanky?

Is this a general question or a question to a person?

Best ways to be more tanky in light armour in general:
- Nord
- Bloodspawn
- Transmutation set and using a hot
- Block cost reduction and block casting abilities under pressure
- Using a buff tracker mod and making sure you keep your buffs up
- Adding speed to kite melee
- Using sets that add a defensive buff (protection is the best)
- Sustain so you don’t run out of resources mid battle
- Mist form if you aren’t fighting other magDKs

That’s all I can think of off the top of my head. Steer clear of sets that give a flat resists amount, they’re about to be undertuned.