Coming back - current and upcoming tanking meta.

tsarkaschey

Hello,


Previously the go-to tank has been DK, but reading multiple threads and topics it seems as though now, along with the upcoming patch, the meta may eventually shift.

I'm particularly interested in whether or not Necro or NB can be built as reasonable endgame tanking characters. It looks like Warden is also a rather popular option, yet I personally don't feel convinced with the theme of the class. On the other hand, though, NB has always been very interesting and the Necto looks great thematically as well.

I understand that apart from score/leaderboard runs it's not very strict which class can tank, but still, I don't want to be kicked out of some content mainly due to the class choice. Apart from some very particular runs, how are Necro and NB tanking-wise in comparison to DK/warden meta? Can they succeed or they're not as tanky for trials, or at least not tanky enough to actually make sense to bring them?

Thanks all for all thoughts on the topic.

Joxer61

NB very good and fun as well. So is Warden but you said you don't feel the Warden so yea, NB!!

tsarkaschey

Joxer61 wrote: »

NB very good and fun as well. So is Warden but you said you don't feel the Warden so yea, NB!!

Thank you for the feedback. How does NB compare to Necro in terms of pure tankiness? Is it only Sunspire that actually prefers NB as tanks, or are they actually looking good considering the upcoming patch and the current situation?

Joxer61

tsarkaschey wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

NB very good and fun as well. So is Warden but you said you don't feel the Warden so yea, NB!!

Thank you for the feedback. How does NB compare to Necro in terms of pure tankiness? Is it only Sunspire that actually prefers NB as tanks, or are they actually looking good considering the upcoming patch and the current situation?

That I couldn't help you with but hopefully some of the more experienced ones will pipe in!

Nevasca

tsarkaschey wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

NB very good and fun as well. So is Warden but you said you don't feel the Warden so yea, NB!!

Thank you for the feedback. How does NB compare to Necro in terms of pure tankiness? Is it only Sunspire that actually prefers NB as tanks, or are they actually looking good considering the upcoming patch and the current situation?

People are taking NB for the group crit buff they provide, so they can all run Stamcro DPS. That's for sunspire at least.

NB tank has really good survivability with Dark Cloak and to some extent relentless reduced damage buff. @actosh can give you more detailed informations, he is a well known NB tank in the end game scene way before it was meta.

jypcy

Personally, out of all my tanks, I feel tankiest on my nb. The combination of accessible, multiple channels of damage mitigation along with hots make it so I don’t often have to actively think about self healing as opposed to other classes like dk, sorc, and necro. I do miss having a true burst heal in some situations, but those are few and far between. Access to aoe minor vuln will likely make them even more desirable next patch.

Necro hasn’t really been a standout to me. Definitely the one I’ve played the least, and I don’t have much experience with it in the current patch. Their ulti gen is really good, but that’s the only area where I’ve felt mine shine. Requiring a melee target for your burst heal is definitely a pain point.

I’m definitely excited for warden next patch. Imo they started out pretty great, then overall tanking changes in Summerset made other classes stand out more and lowered warden’s novelty, but they’ve been getting better bit by bit ever since. They currently are and have been very good tanks, but if dk falls off next patch I’d expect nbs to be meta with probably wardens in second place.

tsarkaschey

jypcy wrote: »

Personally, out of all my tanks, I feel tankiest on my nb. The combination of accessible, multiple channels of damage mitigation along with hots make it so I don’t often have to actively think about self healing as opposed to other classes like dk, sorc, and necro. I do miss having a true burst heal in some situations, but those are few and far between. Access to aoe minor vuln will likely make them even more desirable next patch.

Necro hasn’t really been a standout to me. Definitely the one I’ve played the least, and I don’t have much experience with it in the current patch. Their ulti gen is really good, but that’s the only area where I’ve felt mine shine. Requiring a melee target for your burst heal is definitely a pain point.

I’m definitely excited for warden next patch. Imo they started out pretty great, then overall tanking changes in Summerset made other classes stand out more and lowered warden’s novelty, but they’ve been getting better bit by bit ever since. They currently are and have been very good tanks, but if dk falls off next patch I’d expect nbs to be meta with probably wardens in second place.

Thank you for the feedback, I will then follow with my NB as thematically it fits my playstyle. Having experience with the tanking can you please also share, if possible, your experience with NB tank in PVP scenarios i.e. dueling and BGs? Just the thoughts you have.

jypcy

tsarkaschey wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Personally, out of all my tanks, I feel tankiest on my nb. The combination of accessible, multiple channels of damage mitigation along with hots make it so I don’t often have to actively think about self healing as opposed to other classes like dk, sorc, and necro. I do miss having a true burst heal in some situations, but those are few and far between. Access to aoe minor vuln will likely make them even more desirable next patch.

Necro hasn’t really been a standout to me. Definitely the one I’ve played the least, and I don’t have much experience with it in the current patch. Their ulti gen is really good, but that’s the only area where I’ve felt mine shine. Requiring a melee target for your burst heal is definitely a pain point.

I’m definitely excited for warden next patch. Imo they started out pretty great, then overall tanking changes in Summerset made other classes stand out more and lowered warden’s novelty, but they’ve been getting better bit by bit ever since. They currently are and have been very good tanks, but if dk falls off next patch I’d expect nbs to be meta with probably wardens in second place.

Thank you for the feedback, I will then follow with my NB as thematically it fits my playstyle. Having experience with the tanking can you please also share, if possible, your experience with NB tank in PVP scenarios i.e. dueling and BGs? Just the thoughts you have.

I’ve largely left PvP behind by now and never played as a nb tank while doing so, however I can say that I’d fought against a couple of really great nb tanks several patches ago when I still actively did BGs. They didn’t deal that much damage, but enough to put pressure on someone. And even a full team had trouble bringing one down.

I’m not sure what build they used and how changes since then have affected the viability of it, but I’d imagine you can still make that sort of brick wall build that’s ideal for objective games (CTR, domination, etc.). Dark cloak is simply a great tanky skill in either game mode and combos nicely with meditate from the psijic skill line.

Sahidom

I know a player who built a NB tank and 50k parsed DPS couldn't kill the guy in a duel while he allowed them to beat on him. It took two teams to bring this guy down in battlegrounds.

tsarkaschey

Considering the recent patch notes I’d like to ask again to verify how would you rank the upcoming meta for tanks and whether or not the dk will stay still as the preferred tank for most of the content or else if nb or warden can have their places.

Donny_Vito

I think the DK will always be the preferred role. Few different reasons....

1) Stam DKs and Mag DKs (for DPS) aren't all that prevalent merely for the fact that other classes can out DPS them. This means the tank DK is bringing a lot of useful buffs.
2) Engulfing Flames. Enough said here.
3) You're most likely going to have Necros and NBs already in your group composition for DPS, so it's a safe bet you're already getting their passive buffs.
4) DKs are the "easy mode" tank -- between Green Blood and Igneous Shield, it's almost a challenge to die.

tsarkaschey

Donny_Vito wrote: »

I think the DK will always be the preferred role. Few different reasons....

1) Stam DKs and Mag DKs (for DPS) aren't all that prevalent merely for the fact that other classes can out DPS them. This means the tank DK is bringing a lot of useful buffs.
2) Engulfing Flames. Enough said here.
3) You're most likely going to have Necros and NBs already in your group composition for DPS, so it's a safe bet you're already getting their passive buffs.
4) DKs are the "easy mode" tank -- between Green Blood and Igneous Shield, it's almost a challenge to die.

So I understand the DK is still the optimal choice, but is it the only one as for the optimal tank currently? Warden was previously considered as the perfect off-tank. Is NB viable after the natch potes in the tank role?

Donny_Vito

tsarkaschey wrote: »

Donny_Vito wrote: »

I think the DK will always be the preferred role. Few different reasons....

1) Stam DKs and Mag DKs (for DPS) aren't all that prevalent merely for the fact that other classes can out DPS them. This means the tank DK is bringing a lot of useful buffs.
2) Engulfing Flames. Enough said here.
3) You're most likely going to have Necros and NBs already in your group composition for DPS, so it's a safe bet you're already getting their passive buffs.
4) DKs are the "easy mode" tank -- between Green Blood and Igneous Shield, it's almost a challenge to die.

So I understand the DK is still the optimal choice, but is it the only one as for the optimal tank currently? Warden was previously considered as the perfect off-tank. Is NB viable after the natch potes in the tank role?

I guess it depends on you and your teams goals. If you're just clearing content for the fun of it, then by all means an NB tank is more than viable (now and the next patch) and will be fun to play. But if you're progressing the hardest content (vAS +2, vSS HM, vCR +3) or going for score runs, I'm afraid the DK is going to be your #1 option now and after the patch.

Iskiab

Right now the best 2nd tank choice is a NB purely because they can be tanky and Warden and Templar fit better into the healing roles. Every guild will bring one of every class to a trial for passives, so NBs fit best as tanks.

Be forewarned about NB, them being in a tank position could change at any time because they aren't there because they're the best at it, just a place to put them for passives and they can do the job well. If you roll a NB tank you could be one patch away from being desired in trial guilds to being not wanted.

Best thing to do is to make a DK tank and have alts. The largest barrier to playing a new character is mount speed and guild skills, it's best to have multiple characters you can switch to with balance changing so much.

In regards to pvp, I don't think a NB tank would work well. Lack of self healing would be too much of an issue, the game has become burstier as time has gone on so playing a tanky build has become more difficult. A NB with dark cloak, bolstering darkness and merciless could have been really tanky at one point, but I've been hit with 18k non-ultimate abilities in pvp with 30k resistances, minor protection and full merciless stacks. In a setting like that tanking's next to impossible as a NB because it lacks a self burst heal.

Sahidom

tsarkaschey wrote: »

I'm particularly interested in whether or not Necro or NB can be built as reasonable endgame tanking characters. It looks like Warden is also a rather popular option, yet I personally don't feel convinced with the theme of the class. On the other hand, though, NB has always been very interesting and the Necto looks great thematically as well.

The Nightblade class kit has some skills/passives to help you tank. The feel the Necro tank would be more dependent on healers to prop them up than other classes since self-healing is one of their class weakness.

Here is video with me in vHRC testing item sets on a NB tank, this test scenario focused on restoring magic to continue self-healing and using shadow skills for the Shadow Barrier passive.

White wabbit

Go

Sahidom wrote: »

tsarkaschey wrote: »

I'm particularly interested in whether or not Necro or NB can be built as reasonable endgame tanking characters. It looks like Warden is also a rather popular option, yet I personally don't feel convinced with the theme of the class. On the other hand, though, NB has always been very interesting and the Necto looks great thematically as well.

The Nightblade class kit has some skills/passives to help you tank. The feel the Necro tank would be more dependent on healers to prop them up than other classes since self-healing is one of their class weakness.

Here is video with me in vHRC testing item sets on a NB tank, this test scenario focused on restoring magic to continue self-healing and using shadow skills for the Shadow Barrier passive.

https://youtu.be/eaCReobXq2Q

Video not loading for me

mocap

top tanks:
1. DK
2. remaining classes in alphabetical order

Sahidom

White wabbit wrote: »

Video not loading for me

Sorry, had to change to public. Fixed.

https://youtu.be/eaCReobXq2Q

Watching the video replay. IF only, Sap Essence costed less or same as Fire Rune (need to check that). You can tell the difference when I let Major Evasion lapse and when it's active. I could have done a better job stacking them up; but eh.

Changes on the bar, I'd check on Sap Essence versus Fire Rune, and I'd put Siphoning Attacks. You can tell the 900 mag. recovery slowed the casting down at the end of the fight.

casparian

tsarkaschey wrote: »

2) Engulfing Flames. Enough said here.

Have you read the patch notes?

tsarkaschey

casparian wrote: »

tsarkaschey wrote: »

2) Engulfing Flames. Enough said here.

Have you read the patch notes?

From what I've read and heard, the Engulfing Flames was one of the main reasons why DK has been so present on the tank scene. With the recent changes and nerfs in that matter, what would be the main reason to bring DK over other classes? I can understand that DK has plenty of tanking utilities which makes him the obvious reason, but heard the same tankiness can be actually acquired with other classes too. So with the Engulfing Flames nerf in this patch, is it anyhow meaningful enough to actually shake the tank scene?

Donny_Vito

casparian wrote: »

tsarkaschey wrote: »

2) Engulfing Flames. Enough said here.

Have you read the patch notes?

Yes. Good DK tanks (who have a nice chunk of max magicka) will still find this skill very helpful to the team. If you're a straight S&B tank (which doesn't really fit well in this new era of tanking) then yes you got a huge nerf. But for the most part, engulfing flames will still be a necessary skill to have on your bar. Anything that does a straight damage bonus will be used, even more so after DPS took a hit this patch.

jypcy

tsarkaschey wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

tsarkaschey wrote: »

2) Engulfing Flames. Enough said here.

Have you read the patch notes?

From what I've read and heard, the Engulfing Flames was one of the main reasons why DK has been so present on the tank scene. With the recent changes and nerfs in that matter, what would be the main reason to bring DK over other classes? I can understand that DK has plenty of tanking utilities which makes him the obvious reason, but heard the same tankiness can be actually acquired with other classes too. So with the Engulfing Flames nerf in this patch, is it anyhow meaningful enough to actually shake the tank scene?

Engulfing flames can still be around 5% on a tank with fairly little effort I believe, which is better than no buff at all. Plus dks bring minor brutality. With necro stacking for colossi not being as much of a thing anymore, it could depend mostly on whether stamdk and magdk deal high enough damage that it’s better to bring one of each of them or a dk tank for those utilities. There’s also the new stagger utility from stone giant that a stamdk might cover, but will probably be demanded of the tank otherwise.

Biggest things NB tanks bring are aoe minor vuln, minor savagery, and aoe dmg debuff (although the lattermost probably won’t matter to most groups). Again, the desirability of a tankblade will matter mostly based on group comp in all likelihood. Is nb dps high enough for them to get a spot and cover minor savagery? Can a healer run IA with a lightning destro?

MartiniDaniels

StamDK now will use stamfist as spammable which also will notably buff group dps and provide non-stop source of minor brutality. No way tank can sustain stamfist spam in any hard pressure scenario.. (and you need to spam it each several seconds to avoid losing stacks..) which means stamDK dps will be a must have in group composition and so DK tank won't be that critical anymore. IMO.

tsarkaschey

Apologies for coming back to the topic but are passives the main reason for the particular class in taking? Thought it’s also about certain classes’ natural ability to maintain tankiness through abilities and utilities it has via skills and thus why DK is the best tank. In the hardest endgame group content available, is it still all about passives why one class is being taken over others i.e. if we discuss whether NB or DK would fit this role better, is it about passives they bring and not the ability to tank as such?

Iskiab

I think - but I’m not making these decisions - it’s about whether the tank class can survive high burst damage mechanics, second is what buffs/support they bring and the optimal way to fit classes into a trial.

You’ll want one of every class for class passives (though mag ones aren’t as important).

Grandesdar

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

StamDK now will use stamfist as spammable which also will notably buff group dps and provide non-stop source of minor brutality. No way tank can sustain stamfist spam in any hard pressure scenario.. (and you need to spam it each several seconds to avoid losing stacks..) which means stamDK dps will be a must have in group composition and so DK tank won't be that critical anymore. IMO.

So that means we have more reason to go warden for the minor toughness passive, it's like having ebon for free and there are so few wardens as DDs.

actosh

@tsarkaschey hey mate, somehow the notification didn't work that blue lizard used. Will give u my point of view on nb tank. Did vss hm, vas +2 immortal redeemer, and any other hm on my nb as Maintank. Currently working on GH. Will provide more Infos after work to u.

actosh

@tsarkaschey

So here we go now.

First let me answer your question.
"Can they succeed or they're not as tanky for trials, or at least not tanky enough to actually make sense to bring them?"

Nb´s are Tanky enough to Tank every Content in the game, no matter if the task is Maintanking or Off-Tanking.
2nd thing, right now they may be Meta in the Stamcromancerworld, but they make solid Tanks no matter how the Group looks.

You can expect to switch your Tank depending on the Meta if u run with a Scorechasergrp. Many other Progress Guilds also may say wich tank u should run, wich is totally fine. U need to make sure before u join if u can stick to your NB no matter what content if this is so important to u.

if u rly wanna go with NB find a group that is ok with that. I Tank with my NB (have dk and all the other Tanks as well) for almost 4 Years now, and the class received some well needed tools to be viable in the Role.


Now on to the important stuff for you. Pro´s and Con´s compared to other Tanks.

Pro´s:
- Good Dmg Mitigation tools (wich are not needed always, but would allow u to go for lower health overall)
- Nice healing via HoT´s (Dk´s kinda play reactive, as Nb u play proactive wich means u need to know when big hits are inc)
- IF build right, awesome Sustain and easy Stam Management.
- Overall fun gameplay (to me since it differs from player to player)
- Access to Minor Vul (Single target now, aoe on Monday) Unique Dmg reduction debuff via Power Extraction(can be good)
- Crit buff for Stamplayers (shouldnt be underestimated)
- Up to 3 Flexspots to do extra stuff. ( Mostly 2 Flex spots depending on Content^^)

Con´s:
- No Engulfing (wich will be changed on Monday)
- No Minor Brutality (rly strong minor buff) but we also have no access to all the other minor things for the grp.
- No "save my ass" tool like Corrosive Armor (we can use Tether or Consuming Darkness wich is maybe half as powerfull).
- No Class based Shield that restores almost 1k stam on each use.

What changes with Dragonhold (Monday on PC)

DK:

Engulfing will use your Spelldmg and Max Mag to determine how much % extra dmg the target takes from all fire sources.
You can build for the 10% but then u sacrifice a *** of stuff for your Tank.
Duration is up to 14 secs if i remember correctly.

Stonefist can increase the Grp dmg if kept up at 3 stacks. A DK Tank could build for it to keep up 3 stacks at all time.
U may say the cost is to high, but i managed to do a dungeon run on pts just to test this.
In order to sustain it u just should switch jewelry to 3 reduce feat cost wich saves 609 stam on each cast.
Cost of poopfist would then be 1844 Stam on each cast. The5 sec window can be quite hard to keep up.
Overall the Dk is still the ok i increase the grp dmg class.


Warden:
Access to minor vul on single target via Swarm, cost stam, easy to apply. Big benefit for Wardens since they can free up the aether set from healers make them running another 5 piece. Shouldnt hurt wardens sustain since its pretty good.


NB:
We get access to AoE Minor Vul ( 6 Meter Radius ) on Lotus Fan ( cost magicka ) wich is rly nice in Trashfights, and since the duration is increased to 10 Seconds u can also use it reliably on Bosses (u need to know mechanics of the bosses perfectly to get uptimes above 95%). Tested it in a few fights and it´s ok gameplay wise although the animation should be speeded up.
Thing with Minor vul is, if u have a warden healer they can also use swarm in a more comfort way and replace aether with martial knowledge, and benefit since then they have a good stamdrain to make martial knowledge proc in the first place.

I cant predict how the Metagroups will change and how they set up the Groups, but it all depends on the content u do and wich class parses the highest and how u need to make your composition to get acess to all the needed buffs.


For my Group, in fights like vAS or vCR the Tanks will need to do the poopfist and engulfing(wich will make them play a bit harder. In the other Trials we may use a Stam Dk and Mag Dk, even though i dont know if a Stam Dk can keep good uptimes on 3 Stacks of stagger (rotation seems to be rly *** then).


I can share my Build real quick that i use for almost everything pve related: Dungeons,Hm´s, Trials and such).

As Maintank:

Monsterset: Whatever fits the situation or what u need. Lord Warden, Vykose (vAS +2 IR), Rkugamz if using Bloodaltar, Bloodspawn ONLY there where u take each second dmg, otherwise i think its crap.

Body: Yolnakrin (buff the grp set)

Jewelry/Weapons: Alkosh

Jewelry Enchants: 3x feat cost reduction. Play with this for almost 2-3 years and i love it.

Food: Orzorgas Red frothgar ( or however its calles, the thing with hp and mag reg)

Mundus: Atro or whatever u prefer, doesnt rly matter.


Skillbar 1 (Sword and Board): Pierce Armor, Heroic Slash, Lotus Fan, Dark Cloak, Mirage(flex spot)
Skillbar 2 (Lightning Staff): Range Taunt, Silver Leash(flex), Wall of Elements, Relentless Focus(flex), Leeching Strikes

Flexspots can be filled with Sword and Shield Skill 3 (dmg shield), purge, ele drain, blood altar, bone shield or any other thing depending on the task u gotta do .

Can do a detailed Build writeup or video if needed and explain why we choose wich things.

If u have any further questions or need help in any regard just whisper me on the eu server on @actosh or send a private message here or just ask in this thread.

Hope i could help u a bit and would love to see u joining the NB Tanks

Have a nice day everyone ^^

Grianasteri

I have a DK tank, a Warden tank, and a Necro tank.

For straight up survivability and tankyness, the DK is probably still on top, not by a long way though, and for me its a bit fiddly and the focus is very much on being a pure tank, staying alive etc, which can be a bit monotonous at times.

I actually enjoy the play style of both the Warden and Necro more. My Warden is a proper tank and I have tanked most vet content with him without major issues. I love the play style and ice theme. My Necro is more of an "off tank" but still has 35k health and has tanked plenty of vet content, while also being able to dish out a bit more utility and damage, not to mention res an entire group instantly in dungeons. Necro tanking feels more active, as in I need to take action to stay alive, rather than simply executing a rotation of buffs and shields that do the job.

Of late, of the three, I take my Necro in most.

Just my personal thoughts.