Open Letter on class identity.

Heyodude

Im going to throw my 2 cents in, and its going to be bitter.

If ZOS really has any idea how to address class identity within the framework of an MMO; then, there are some solid rules they have to outline and never break. It starts with DPS roles, because no one is clambering over one another to make their class as viable as a Dragon Knight tank or as strong of a healer as Templar. It all comes back to the DPS side of things and how this whole MMO has gone off the rails.

Because it has, as a gaming experience, gone far and to the left in its scope. Are you ready for it? okay, "Your main shouldn't be able to do everything." You don't deserve that as a gamer. If you pick a Sorcerer, and expect it to be better at wielding swords, you shouldn't be catered to. If you pick a nightblade and want to be the best healer you should regret your decision. If you wear light armor and run two ice staffs to tank DLC content, you should be kicked from your group.

That's the problem with this game. The developers, cannot and never will be able to make you, as a player viable, in every weapon, every piece of armor and every role. If they continue that pipe dream they will continue to hemorrhage subs. The game needs an actual outline of what class does what the best, and then you can balance the game.

Templar, Healer or 2nd rate dps. Predominant healers should have a hybrid tax put on their dps output due to the unfair advantage big heals give them
Dragonknight, Tank or 2h warrior<--- tanks should have a gnarly dps option otherwise leveling is quite the sh*t sandwich
Sorcerer, Ranged magic DD <---in the name and lore
Necromancer, Pet magic DD <---in the name and lore
Night Blade, stamina melee fighter<--- its in the lore, none of the elder scrolls lore has these guys flinging magic
Warden, ranged stamina fighter<--- Bows are entirely underutilized in this game which isnt good optics for an elder scrolls title

thats exactly how it should be, you would be able to balance your game and inform your players on what to expect when picking a class. The added bonus is that if lines are drawn around these characters you can actually make content around these play styles, Instead of making content and trying to buff or nerf things to shove players into content.

MartiniDaniels

This is elder scrolls game, everybody can do everything, no need to turn it into class-role locked game with pre-defined abilities packs.

Gilvoth

classes should never have been put into eso.
just like in morrowind SP there should be the ability to make your own class and have a classless option.

Vlad9425

Game was at it's best when NB and Sorc were the best Damage dealers, DK was the best tank and Templar was the best healer. Fair enough that they want every class to be able to fill every role but it's gone way too far now and has stripped the classes of their Uniqueness and identity imo.

Heyodude

Gilvoth wrote: »

classes should never have been put into eso.
just like in morrowind SP there should be the ability to make your own class and have a classless option.

thats not an mmo though, thats a single player rpg, this game is based off of early iterations of the elderscrolls when it was more akin to dungeons and dragons. Where your character couldnt be awesome at everything. Its alright for your character to have weaknesses, that way the developers can determine what your really frickin good at.

Heyodude

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

This is elder scrolls game, everybody can do everything, no need to turn it into class-role locked game with pre-defined abilities packs.

Im not saying you shouldnt be able to pick up a sword and shield and think youre a tank, im just saying its alright if your class will never be better than a dragon knight. Vice versa, a dk should never hold a staff and beat a sorcerer in a game of who can shoot magic harder. there has to be predifined strengths and weaknesses if you want this to be an mmo with balanced content.

Glurin

Heyodude wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

classes should never have been put into eso.
just like in morrowind SP there should be the ability to make your own class and have a classless option.

thats not an mmo though, thats a single player rpg, this game is based off of early iterations of the elderscrolls when it was more akin to dungeons and dragons. Where your character couldnt be awesome at everything. Its alright for your character to have weaknesses, that way the developers can determine what your really frickin good at.

But I don't want the developers determining that. I want me to determine that. The more freedom we have to develop our characters as we want them to be, the better.

That doesn't mean we want to be best at everything all at once with no weaknesses. It just means we don't want to be arbitrarily restricted to 50 year old stereotypes. Why in the hell would there ever be a law dictating that just because you know how to pick a lock you have to give yourself a lobotomy so you can never use any kind of magic? How does learning to light a candle with magic make it physically impossible for you to pick up a sword or wear anything but a silk dress?

Heyodude

Glurin wrote: »

Heyodude wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

classes should never have been put into eso.
just like in morrowind SP there should be the ability to make your own class and have a classless option.

thats not an mmo though, thats a single player rpg, this game is based off of early iterations of the elderscrolls when it was more akin to dungeons and dragons. Where your character couldnt be awesome at everything. Its alright for your character to have weaknesses, that way the developers can determine what your really frickin good at.

But I don't want the developers determining that. I want me to determine that. The more freedom we have to develop our characters as we want them to be, the better.

That doesn't mean we want to be best at everything all at once with no weaknesses. It just means we don't want to be arbitrarily restricted to 50 year old stereotypes. Why in the hell would there ever be a law dictating that just because you know how to pick a lock you have to give yourself a lobotomy so you can never use any kind of magic? How does learning to light a candle with magic make it physically impossible for you to pick up a sword or wear anything but a silk dress?

lockpicking is a horrible example. no one uses skills to light candles in this game. Summarily, you should not be able to wield the power of a portable nuke and simultaneously be as damage resistant as a Dragon knight (looking at you sorcs). The purpose for powerful roles is to create balanced gameplay. Right now alot of the player base is very pampered. Yes you should be able to do all the things you want. they all shouldnt be viable though.

Froil

Night Blade, stamina melee fighter<--- its in the lore, none of the elder scrolls lore has these guys flinging magic

???
Nightblades have magic as Major skills in every game though. A quick Google/ES wikis search confirms this, with Major skills in Morrowind being: Mysticism, Illusion, Alteration, Sneak, Short Blade; They all also have "Favored Attributes" with Willpower being consistently there.

I get what you're trying to say though, but shoehorning them in to being a cliche "rogue" archetype is... Boring and limiting. That's like everyone saying Alteration Staff for tanking when their only reasoning is "you use Alteration magic to make yourself tanky"...

It also feels as though you want classes to be rigidly defined; Templars can only heal, Dragonknights can only tank, Sorcerers can only be magic users, Necromancers can only summon/raise the dead and should probably have whole armies at their disposal, Wardens can only use bow/bow, Nightblades can only be sneaky dagger rogue. If you're going to do that, might as well get rid of all but one skill lines that each class has, maybe move a few skills and passive in and around it, prevent Sorcerers, Templars and Necromancers from obtaining and using the Fighter's Guild skill line and vice versa for Dragonknights, Wardens and Nightblades, while also limiting what weapons and armor types they can use.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

I think the OP has it exactly wrong.

MartiniDaniels

Heyodude wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

This is elder scrolls game, everybody can do everything, no need to turn it into class-role locked game with pre-defined abilities packs.

Im not saying you shouldnt be able to pick up a sword and shield and think youre a tank, im just saying its alright if your class will never be better than a dragon knight. Vice versa, a dk should never hold a staff and beat a sorcerer in a game of who can shoot magic harder. there has to be predifined strengths and weaknesses if you want this to be an mmo with balanced content.

But magDK can't shoot harder then sorcerer from the distance, magDK is magicka melee dps. This game doesn't have much problems with class identity in the beginning of this year. Yes, there was magden which needed a buff but other then that all classes were overall close to each other.. with several (but not all) possible roles available.

Dusk_Coven

Heyodude wrote: »

If ZOS really has any idea how to address class identity within the framework of an MMO; then, there are some solid rules they have to outline and never break. It starts with DPS roles, because no one is clambering over one another to make their class as viable as a Dragon Knight tank or as strong of a healer as Templar. It all comes back to the DPS side of things and how this whole MMO has gone off the rails.

…

If you pick a Sorcerer, and expect it to be better at wielding swords, you shouldn't be catered to. If you pick a nightblade and want to be the best healer you should regret your decision. If you wear light armor and run two ice staffs to tank DLC content, you should be kicked from your group.

Maybe "no one is clambering over one another to make their class as viable as a Dragon Knight tank or as strong of a healer as Templar" because too many people don't want to think for themselves. Too many people follow online builds and shoot for the biggest numbers and the "best build".
As soon as people start doing that, they are actually DISCARDING class identity and have no right to talk about it.
They were never interested in class identity. They are interested in numbers.

This is not a new issue. This is the issue that roleplayers way back in the age of pen and paper RPGs recognized. There are min-maxers who don't really care about identity or character concept. They care about numbers only. These people should just stop pretending to care about class identity and continue to jig-saw what they think will output the best numbers after every patch.

ZOS wants to make the game fun to look at and to play. ZOS doesn't mind min-maxers. But from the last post about class identity, it seems to me ZOS doesn't want everyone to feel that they need to follow an internet guide or feel bullied by community pressure to conform tightly.

Class Identity starts with IDENTITY. Not numbers. Not even dungeon ROLE. It starts with your personal idea of what you like to play, what you think looks and feels fun. Each class is a bag of SFX to help you find a class you feel is fun to play.
After that, you make reasonable decisions about skills and gear to align with how you want to play that character. What do you envision them doing? Do you want to be tank? Healer? Damage dealer? A generalist to clear tough solo content like Maelstrom?
ZOS wants you to be able to do that competently with any class so that people aren't automatically going to be Templar healer or Dragonknight Tank -- and probably especially to avoid situations where they get passed over because they are not playing a particular class-role combination.

NWO had that problem. For their version of trials, internet guides were recommending exactly what mix of sub-classes. And if you weren't on the list, you either got carried or you didn't get picked because everyone else was too scared to do anything else because they were too scared to fail.

Heyodude wrote: »

If you wear light armor and run two ice staffs to tank DLC content, you should be kicked from your group.

This is the sort of attitude that, taken too far, dumbs down the game to Tank-Healer-DPS. Don't even bother with naming them anything else or any subclasses because there's only one mathematical "best" for a role and that's the only thing you should play for the role.

If you feel such-and-such a build is "wrong" and people must be kicked out, I recommend you go play another game because that's not the direction ZOS is going.
I personally do not support any sort of move to kick anyone as long as they can perform their role. If it's a DPS who slaps on an Ice Staff to "tank" a dungeon they can solo... I don't really care. He's "tanking" and the job's getting done.
If they CAN'T -- trying to fake tank in a Trial? -- then they're gonna get found out in a hurry anyway. Sure they could have Class Identity and a vision for their character, but they also need to be realistic and adjust their skills. And ZOS wants them to be able to do that instead of starting an alt.

Heyodude

Froil wrote: »

Night Blade, stamina melee fighter<--- its in the lore, none of the elder scrolls lore has these guys flinging magic

???
Nightblades have magic as Major skills in every game though. A quick Google/ES wikis search confirms this, with Major skills in Morrowind being: Mysticism, Illusion, Alteration, Sneak, Short Blade; They all also have "Favored Attributes" with Willpower being consistently there.

I get what you're trying to say though, but shoehorning them in to being a cliche "rogue" archetype is... Boring and limiting. That's like everyone saying Alteration Staff for tanking when their only reasoning is "you use Alteration magic to make yourself tanky"...

It also feels as though you want classes to be rigidly defined; Templars can only heal, Dragonknights can only tank, Sorcerers can only be magic users, Necromancers can only summon/raise the dead and should probably have whole armies at their disposal, Wardens can only use bow/bow, Nightblades can only be sneaky dagger rogue. If you're going to do that, might as well get rid of all but one skill lines that each class has, maybe move a few skills and passive in and around it, prevent Sorcerers, Templars and Necromancers from obtaining and using the Fighter's Guild skill line and vice versa for Dragonknights, Wardens and Nightblades, while also limiting what weapons and armor types they can use.

NBs don't use offensive magic, they use alteration and mysticism to do what? Get into close quarters combat with their prey. they dont fling magick like sorcs do. But the only thing resembling this is cloak and that's all well and well. which is on the par for all rogues in all mmo's and what all people who play mmo's love about rogues coincidentally.

Im not saying you shouldnt have the option to do everything, im saying that you dont deserve be awesome at everything if thats how you want to play the game. Certain classes should outstrip other classes in differing aspects of the game. Its an MMO Rpg not a single player game. Its alright for you to be superman in Skyrim. Its quite selfish for you to expect that in a multiplayer game.

Raideen

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

This is elder scrolls game, everybody can do everything, no need to turn it into class-role locked game with pre-defined abilities packs.

and your belief in how the game should be is why the masses are finding it more and more tiresome to play.

Diversity is cool, homogenization is not.

MartiniDaniels

Also why sorcerer can't be good with swords? Nothing prevents using magicka to enhance your martial ability. Yeah, it all should come in form of temporary buffs, but still that is ok from lore point of view, both TES lore and overall fantasy genre lore.

Raideen

Sorcerers should not be good with swords, its ludicrous. They do not possess the fitness to wield heavy, iron weapons such as a sword.

Should they be able to conjure up magical blades, sure but its just stupid to have a 1 class can do anything game and be the best in all aspects, outside of the fact it is literally impossible to balance.

MartiniDaniels

I tried WoW couple months ago and I greatly loved performance, flying mounts and overall feeling of quality which was blizzard's definitive feature before.. but after seeing that you are basically locked within your class to do absolutely the same forever, even with pre-defined 3 ability packs... I just got bored at some point and didn't launched game since. We love TES for this freedom of choosing profession, even if this will be non-meta. (though non-meta is mostly for PVP)

usmguy1234

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

This is elder scrolls game, everybody can do everything, no need to turn it into class-role locked game with pre-defined abilities packs.

But this isn't a tes game. Even the developers have said that. The game's already watered down enough as it is. Why blur the lines between what makes the classes unique by having every class able to fill every role? That just scrapes away another layer of uniqueness from the classes. Why not demand unique content that requires diversity rather than just punching through everything with a party full of dps?

Recent

Did you notice there is no mention whatsover about the dragon knight changes and what it means to have no class identity?

Is having no identity, the new class identity?

Heyodude

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Also why sorcerer can't be good with swords? Nothing prevents using magicka to enhance your martial ability. Yeah, it all should come in form of temporary buffs, but still that is ok from lore point of view, both TES lore and overall fantasy genre lore.

thats no benefit to how the game actually is though, the game has been legitimately watered down to universal skills because the developers have lost the thread of what actually makes any of these classes what they are. They cant implement a whole subset of rules for sorc saying "this is why it should be good at swords too" because that sounds like a totally different game than what is actually viable with the given software of the Elder Scrolls Online.

So no, they shouldnt be just as good with swords, nightblades should be better swordsmen because thats how the game is designed.

Froil

Heyodude wrote: »

NBs don't use offensive magic, they use alteration and mysticism to do what? Get into close quarters combat with their prey. they dont fling magick like sorcs do. But the only thing resembling this is cloak and that's all well and well. which is on the par for all rogues in all mmo's and what all people who play mmo's love about rogues coincidentally.

Im not saying you shouldnt have the option to do everything, im saying that you dont deserve be awesome at everything if thats how you want to play the game. Certain classes should outstrip other classes in differing aspects of the game. Its an MMO Rpg not a single player game. Its alright for you to be superman in Skyrim. Its quite selfish for you to expect that in a multiplayer game.

???
Nightblades in Morrowind and Oblivion also have Destruction as a Minor and Major skill, respectively.

First and foremost this is an Elder Scrolls game, secondly it's an MMO. If every MMO had all classes firmly follow the same archetype that they've always been, they'd be the same thing over and over again, which I highly doubt anyone wants.

I'm awesome at everything I do because I put forth the time and effort needed to make them work; I can heal some of the hardest content with my Dragonknight healer even though it's difficult. I have my Templar, sure, but sometimes I want to play something different. Classes do "outstrip" others in many aspects of the game. Everyone knows Dragonknights are the "best" tanks because they're the easiest, same with Templars and healing.

Nobody's being selfish for wanting to add some unique utility to a class that lacks it; nobody's selfish for wanting their class to have a niche; nobody's selfish for wanting to play their favorite class in a way that others won't because "it's not meta". If they can make it work, then more power to them. Take the time and effort and make it your own; become the best.

People are being selfish if you only want Templar healers, only Dragonknight tanks, only stamina Nightblades, meta races for meta specs. People are being selfish if you're kicking them when they're using light armor and double ice staves (though I don't advocate that, at least have S&B and ice). If they can do it, why stop them? Why tell them they're bad? Is it optimal? Hell no. Do I trust them? Hell no pugs are a consistent let down. But that's because they're probably learning; we all had to learn at some point.

And no, nobody's asking to be perfect at every aspect in the game no matter what race, class or role they choose, no matter what skills they do and don't use, item sets, or the lack thereof, or types of weapons and armor. It doesn't hurt if they get a little bit that makes it easier though.

MartiniDaniels

Raideen wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

This is elder scrolls game, everybody can do everything, no need to turn it into class-role locked game with pre-defined abilities packs.

and your belief in how the game should be is why the masses are finding it more and more tiresome to play.

Diversity is cool, homogenization is not.

I am not saying about game in it's current state. Current state is unplayable for me, both from performance and balance side, I only logon for that pet daily box (still need 2 logons though ) and to do some writs on GM crafters to have something to sell to meet my trading requirements for a week.

But game was fine like year ago and there was no class-role lock. And even at U21 it was ok. Balance and performance flop happened at U22.

Heyodude

Froil wrote: »

Heyodude wrote: »

NBs don't use offensive magic, they use alteration and mysticism to do what? Get into close quarters combat with their prey. they dont fling magick like sorcs do. But the only thing resembling this is cloak and that's all well and well. which is on the par for all rogues in all mmo's and what all people who play mmo's love about rogues coincidentally.

Im not saying you shouldnt have the option to do everything, im saying that you dont deserve be awesome at everything if thats how you want to play the game. Certain classes should outstrip other classes in differing aspects of the game. Its an MMO Rpg not a single player game. Its alright for you to be superman in Skyrim. Its quite selfish for you to expect that in a multiplayer game.

???
Nightblades in Morrowind and Oblivion also have Destruction as a Minor and Major skill, respectively.

First and foremost this is an Elder Scrolls game, secondly it's an MMO. If every MMO had all classes firmly follow the same archetype that they've always been, they'd be the same thing over and over again, which I highly doubt anyone wants.

I'm awesome at everything I do because I put forth the time and effort needed to make them work; I can heal some of the hardest content with my Dragonknight healer even though it's difficult. I have my Templar, sure, but sometimes I want to play something different. Classes do "outstrip" others in many aspects of the game. Everyone knows Dragonknights are the "best" tanks because they're the easiest, same with Templars and healing.

Nobody's being selfish for wanting to add some unique utility to a class that lacks it; nobody's selfish for wanting their class to have a niche; nobody's selfish for wanting to play their favorite class in a way that others won't because "it's not meta". If they can make it work, then more power to them. Take the time and effort and make it your own; become the best.

People are being selfish if you only want Templar healers, only Dragonknight tanks, only stamina Nightblades, meta races for meta specs. People are being selfish if you're kicking them when they're using light armor and double ice staves (though I don't advocate that, at least have S&B and ice). If they can do it, why stop them? Why tell them they're bad? Is it optimal? Hell no. Do I trust them? Hell no pugs are a consistent let down. But that's because they're probably learning; we all had to learn at some point.

And no, nobody's asking to be perfect at every aspect in the game no matter what race, class or role they choose, no matter what skills they do and don't use, item sets, or the lack thereof, or types of weapons and armor. It doesn't hurt if they get a little bit that makes it easier though.

once again, im not saying you shouldnt be able to do all those things, im saying you shouldnt ever be as good as the class designed to fill those specific roles. You shouldnt be able to, for the sake of class identity and game balance, which is the developers struggle right now. They have tried to cater to too many people who are expecting to perform like a stamina nightblade when they picked a sorcerer. which has made the game bland and boiled the experience down to universal skills with no class identity.

Sahidom

To an extent the OP is correct where classes shouldn't be the "Swiss army knife" of roles. The Sorcerer example, why not introduce the Battle Mage, as the Stamina Sorcerer. Crusader, as the weapon focused Templar. Elder Scrolls has so many other classes in the paradigm of the world. More and more players are feeling this class diversity and how crammed their classes are becoming to satisfy the trinity model; it's no longer about playing a Sorcerer, Templar, Nightblade, or Dragon Knight. Playing an actual class is meaningless in today's ESO except which has better passives, useful skills, and better synergies with sets for builds: that's the meta. Believe it or not, or maybe you already foreseen this by the conduct and developing direction of the game.

GeorgeBlack

Agreed

Dusk_Coven

Sahidom wrote: »

Playing an actual class is meaningless in today's ESO except which has better passives, useful skills, and better synergies with sets for builds: that's the meta.

This is what too much following online guides does. People stop thinking for themselves and just follow a build thinking they need the biggest numbers or best build.
They've forgotten that most of the game doesn't need you to be "the best". Maybe ZOS wants people to remember to have fun and they are willing to make top-tier content not require "the best" all the time.
Except people are scared to try top-tier content with anything except the best numbers. DPS is the worst offender. Instead of being willing to do the mechanics, people want to burn the boss faster to avoid mechanics altogether. And various Achievements like speed runs just make the problem worse.

Glurin

Sahidom wrote: »

Playing an actual class is meaningless in today's ESO except which has better passives, useful skills, and better synergies with sets for builds: that's the meta.

And that's the problem. Too many metasheep.

Meta is not the game. You shouldn't have to follow what is meta to be viable. The very definition of viable means not necessarily meta. A tank sorcerer and a healer nightblade does not strip away any part of the DK or templar identities. But it seems that there's a rather vocal group of people around here who think it does because they can't wrap their head around anything outside of what is meta. Damage meter numbers, resistance numbers, healing numbers, crit values, boss battle time, that's all they care about. Actual character identity doesn't even register on the list of concerns. It's all about whether or not their DK is still going to be the meta tank after the next update.

Heyodude

Glurin wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

Playing an actual class is meaningless in today's ESO except which has better passives, useful skills, and better synergies with sets for builds: that's the meta.

And that's the problem. Too many metasheep.

Meta is not the game. You shouldn't have to follow what is meta to be viable. The very definition of viable means not necessarily meta. A tank sorcerer and a healer nightblade does not strip away any part of the DK or templar identities. But it seems that there's a rather vocal group of people around here who think it does because they can't wrap their head around anything outside of what is meta. Damage meter numbers, resistance numbers, healing numbers, crit values, boss battle time, that's all they care about. Actual character identity doesn't even register on the list of concerns. It's all about whether or not their DK is still going to be the meta tank after the next update.

Glurin wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

Playing an actual class is meaningless in today's ESO except which has better passives, useful skills, and better synergies with sets for builds: that's the meta.

And that's the problem. Too many metasheep.

Meta is not the game. You shouldn't have to follow what is meta to be viable. The very definition of viable means not necessarily meta. A tank sorcerer and a healer nightblade does not strip away any part of the DK or templar identities. But it seems that there's a rather vocal group of people around here who think it does because they can't wrap their head around anything outside of what is meta. Damage meter numbers, resistance numbers, healing numbers, crit values, boss battle time, that's all they care about. Actual character identity doesn't even register on the list of concerns. It's all about whether or not their DK is still going to be the meta tank after the next update.

But how the game arrived at this point was because players kept complaining that their stam sorc, and night blade healers weren't good enough and should be just as good. Legitimately the development team made orbs to level the playing field for healers. Then over powered stamina weapon lines because sorcerer was never meant to be a stamina class. Orbs impacted performance, and consequently every stam dps threw away their class identity because universal weapon skills were just better.

The game legitimately started tanking in performance and class uniqueness because the developers tried to make every class good at everything. And it hasn't got any better, stamcro is the best, mainly because a super pay to win ulti but also backed up by an out of control stamina option via the universal dual wield skill line.

When someone says Necromancer, the first thing i think of is a Butchy looking two sword wielding barbarian, you know what I sayin? Class identity at its finest my friend.

The whole "play your own way" is a lie. This is an MMO, with roles that have distinct checks and balances those roles need to fill. If the ZOS combat team bites the bullet a redefines what these classes and their roles mean; then, there will be less free fall every three months. Primarily because if the Developers do define what each class is best at, then the developement team can actually patent changes for said classes instead of the one size fits all, DOT's or Spammables patches they seem to be flipping coins over every 2 to 3 months, which has only ended up driving off more people than it attracts in the last few patches.

usmguy1234

Recent wrote: »

Did you notice there is no mention whatsover about the dragon knight changes and what it means to have no class identity?

Is having no identity, the new class identity?

Dk is now identity fluid. Enjoy your forced enlightenment.

Glurin

Heyodude wrote: »

When someone says Necromancer, the first thing i think of is a Butchy looking two sword wielding barbarian, you know what I sayin?

Yeah, I know exactly what you're sayin.

"Women can't work in [insert industry]. That's a man's job. Women should be at home cleaning and making dinner and taking care of the kids. Not doing man work."

You believe in the stereotypes. Necromancers are all frail old men in black bath robes that spend all their time raising the dead to fight for them because they'd keel over if you sneezed on them.

Zorgon_The_Revenged

Heyodude wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

This is elder scrolls game, everybody can do everything, no need to turn it into class-role locked game with pre-defined abilities packs.

Im not saying you shouldnt be able to pick up a sword and shield and think youre a tank, im just saying its alright if your class will never be better than a dragon knight. Vice versa, a dk should never hold a staff and beat a sorcerer in a game of who can shoot magic harder. there has to be predifined strengths and weaknesses if you want this to be an mmo with balanced content.

A dk should never hold a staff and beat a sorc in a game of who can shoot magic harder?.....what, even if they try really hard?