ZOS if you want a nice example of class identity maybe take a peek at GW2?

Wing

im sure there are other games too, but GW2 is very similar to ESO in the first place.

for instance in reference to how a class plays, the rogue in GW2 has a pretty neat "stacks" system of building stacks passively, or with skills, and uses them as the primary source of skill use rather then magicka. some skills cost a lot of stacks, some few, etc.

warrior is very passive tanky based while guardian is far more spikey defense with low cooldown auto block procs (like auto block the next attack ever x seconds, honestly somewhere between these two classes is DK, for real)

etc. etc. like I said im sure there are other games and other examples of how to do it, but GW2 was designed in a very similar core class direction and gameplay style as ESO (5 skills mainly, any class can pretty much solo, yada yada.

maybe things like NB shadow shot or DK dots should be incorporated into passives for the classes. such as DK light attacks applying a dot, or NB building shadow shot stacks leading up to a big hit as class passives.

Iccotak

In ESO class identity pertains to the fact that each class plays a role differently than the other.

A Warden Healer and Templar Healer don't play the same
A DK Tank and Nightblade tank don't play the same
playing a DPS character with any of the classes is going to be a different experience

Wing

Iccotak wrote: »

In ESO class identity pertains to the fact that each class plays a role differently than the other.

A Warden Healer and Templar Healer don't play the same
A DK Tank and Nightblade tank don't play the same
playing a DPS character with any of the classes is going to be a different experience

less and less true these days, maybe more so around launch.

MLGProPlayer

I loved the class diversity in GW2. They did a *** poor job of balancing the classes and weapons, but at least each class felt unique to play.

Nemesis7884

i love the gw2 system as every class is built around a core resource or mechanic...this combined with specific available weapon combos and fantastic animations And the introduced specialist system only deepens the experience...

FrancisCrawford

My favorite class/skill system was actually the one in Guild Wars (not GW2). Key elements included:

• Almost all skills were unique to a class.
• Each class had a few different skill lines, and you had points to invest to scale skill lines. IIRC, you could max out 2 skill lines pretty easily, but that was about it.
• Your skill bar could have skills from your class plus ONE other one. You could NOT invest points to scale any skill lines outside your class.

Thus, your skills that scaled (damage, healing) were basically confined to a couple of skill lines, but your utility skills could be chosen much more broadly. The whole thing worked very well.

I also liked the "Elite" skill system.

• Unlike ESO's ultimates, Elite skills had the same mechanics as other skills, in terms of resources and cooldowns.
• Some Elite skills were big-bang types with long cooldowns, but others were spammables or whatever. So there was a lot of diversity in what your best skill did for you.
• You unlocked Elite skills by killing bosses.

VaranisArano

I suspect the Devs have enough on their plate trying to balance the power fantasies and play patterns of their current playerbase without basing their vision on how classes work in a different game entirely.

Wing

VaranisArano wrote: »

I suspect the Devs have enough on their plate trying to balance the power fantasies and play patterns of their current playerbase without basing their vision on how classes work in a different game entirely.

it is never a bad idea to look at how other games do things.

you end up like Anthem, that reportedly REFUSED to look or talk about how other games did things and ended up being a disaster because among other things it ended up with problems that other games had already solved.

STEAL! all the time

if someone else has a good idea or a great mechanic F'n steal it. there is no reason to reinvent a wheel just for the sake of doing it when somebody else already made the best wheel.

ESO is struggling with class identity, to the point that they made a thread and actual launcher announcement trying to explain it a bit, and as I stated in the OP, GW2 is a very similar game that one of the highlights was its class identity. its worth looking at what other games had great class identity and asking yourself "why?" and then perhaps using the answer to FIX the problems of your own, it saves time, money, and playerbase.

Red_Feather

Yeah Guild Wars 2 has really good class mechanics and combat.

Revenant is my favourite Guild Wars 2 class by far. A stance based warrior whose stances are actually ritualistic channeling dead legendary lore characters. 2:22 is where you get to see some Legend swapping.
https://youtu.be/HvicSjcjEKA?t=142

jwjackson5674

This is exactly why I quit this game last month after playing since beta. In my opinion, it is ridiculous to have every class be able to do every job, ie tank, dps, heals. but this come as a result of not having enough classes.

I played FFXI for close to 9 years and FFXIV for a while before ESO came out, and I loved they way their classes, or jobs as they called them, were. FFXI has 22 classes/jobs. FFXIV has 12 or 14 now I can't remember.

Instead of butchering the classes in an effort to make them all viable for all roles....just add more classes and give them all a unique identity and singular function.

StormeReigns

jwjackson5674 wrote: »

This is exactly why I quit this game last month after playing since beta. In my opinion, it is ridiculous to have every class be able to do every job, ie tank, dps, heals. but this come as a result of not having enough classes.

I played FFXI for close to 9 years and FFXIV for a while before ESO came out, and I loved they way their classes, or jobs as they called them, were. FFXI has 22 classes/jobs. FFXIV has 12 or 14 now I can't remember.

Instead of butchering the classes in an effort to make them all viable for all roles....just add more classes and give them all a unique identity and singular function.

Kujata Server (before they gutted a lot of the servers in FFXI ps2 - 2003-2011) Loved that people could experiment with main and sub combos to fit their style of play. Was originally DRK/SAM, cause damn did I hate /THF and botched up the SA+TA and BLM/RDM then to MNK/DRK // DRG/DRK (mmm any multi hit ws paired with Last Resort was damn sexy - but nothing will ever be as sexy as 100fist [2hr] with the Kraken Club + Boost x3 + Soul Eater + Last Resort but mnk/dnc comes very close with dw'ing lol) moved to being BLU/PUP for the last 2years there.
Blu/Pup was a amazing combo, worked well in Dyna groups and endgame to start off the heavy SC and having some of the heaviest hitting solo Darkness SC+Magic Bursts have better heals than RDM and was able to burst more often than most DRKS and keep pace in survival with most NIN/WAR tanks. Plus, Will never forget when the zone to Kazham entrance bugged out and Dorkmage (FFXI) ran the entire goblin and toneberry population to the entrance in "protest."

FFXI was mainly why I picked up tESO, nearly offering the same wide range of options of combinations and uniqueness. Sure switching from DPS/TANK/HEALER here isn't as fluid as before, but the ground work is there and not nearly as punishing as (mostly costly) as other mmo's that offer similar build switching.

While I do day dream of ESO one day offering a similar FFXI dual class system - it would be a balance nightmare. Just like the run to Valk.Dunes to farm crabs and accidentally aggro two bogys.

bluebird

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

My favorite class/skill system was actually the one in Guild Wars (not GW2). Key elements included:

• Almost all skills were unique to a class.
• Each class had a few different skill lines, and you had points to invest to scale skill lines. IIRC, you could max out 2 skill lines pretty easily, but that was about it.
• Your skill bar could have skills from your class plus ONE other one. You could NOT invest points to scale any skill lines outside your class.

Yeah, GW1 was great! It also helped that classes had unique mechanics.

Assassins could chain attacks together with the finishers being quite powerful so the game rewarded the times you managed to deliver a skill sequence without interrupting it with other skills or actions inbetween.

Dervish could access enchantments like other classes, but they also had unique skills that worked together with those enchantments - enchantment stripping to trigger these unique effects was a very interesting aspect of playing Dervish.

Instead, ESO takes the few unique mechanics that classes have and gives it to others, making almost all classes homogenous. DKs had chain, it was added to Fighters Guild. NBs had Grim Focus, it was added to StamSorcs. *sigh*

Araneae6537

Personally, I like that ESO is different, that class doesn’t define your role. GW2 started out trying to do away with roles completely, but having options is always a good thing and some of us really enjoy playing support roles.

Each class (or profession) in GW2 is unique to play and every weapon skill is unique to the class. This can be a good thing, but it makes learning a new class a lot more work. I never saw this as so bad a thing, until my favorite spec, Druid, was gutted this past year. I feel that GW2 is increasingly defining how each spec can be utilized. I feel that there used to be more build variety whereas now a lot of specs may not only be DPS-only, for example, but only work well for burst or DoTs. There are some specs which I feel are still versatile and can fill different roles, do different types of damage and/or different types of support. Guardian Firebrand is a good example of this — can do burst or DoT damage or heal and buff. Ranger Druid used to be viable DPS — never meta outside of niche uses to my knowledge, but still. Now, so much utility has been taken away, some with reason I could see, but much in ways that don’t even make sense with the class’ central theme (animal companions, in this case).

I would like ESO to provide us the options to play each class unique, but please don’t follow what GW2 has been doing to specs. Who wants to invest in heating and learning a unique spec when it may be next on the chopping block? They’ve made some terribly unfun nerfs in my opinion and that is no small part of why I’m now here.

idk

Wing wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

In ESO class identity pertains to the fact that each class plays a role differently than the other.

A Warden Healer and Templar Healer don't play the same
A DK Tank and Nightblade tank don't play the same
playing a DPS character with any of the classes is going to be a different experience

less and less true these days, maybe more so around launch.

There comment is correct. Each class has something different. It is why some classes are preferred for some roles over others.

With that there is similarities because we have access to the same weapons and some skill lines but that is where ESO separates itself from most major MMORPGs. I think ESO is more of a success being ESO than trying to be like GW2 or FF.

Araneae6537

jwjackson5674 wrote: »

This is exactly why I quit this game last month after playing since beta. In my opinion, it is ridiculous to have every class be able to do every job, ie tank, dps, heals. but this come as a result of not having enough classes.

I played FFXI for close to 9 years and FFXIV for a while before ESO came out, and I loved they way their classes, or jobs as they called them, were. FFXI has 22 classes/jobs. FFXIV has 12 or 14 now I can't remember.

Instead of butchering the classes in an effort to make them all viable for all roles....just add more classes and give them all a unique identity and singular function.

I respectfully disagree. Sure, most games equate class and role, but Elder Scrolls has always been different in this regard and I, for one, am glad of it. I would hate classes with a singular function and seriously, 22 classes??? I would much rather have far fewer classes wherein I have options to create the flavor and identity that I want for that character. That allows for so much more variety and customization — more than 22 pre-defined “identities” in my opinion!

Everyone is entitled to their preferences, of course, but all the more reason that I like Elder Scrolls way of handling character classes and abilities — there are already lots of MMORPG’s out there with the other sort of system!

idk

jwjackson5674 wrote: »

This is exactly why I quit this game last month after playing since beta. In my opinion, it is ridiculous to have every class be able to do every job, ie tank, dps, heals. but this come as a result of not having enough classes.

I played FFXI for close to 9 years and FFXIV for a while before ESO came out, and I loved they way their classes, or jobs as they called them, were. FFXI has 22 classes/jobs. FFXIV has 12 or 14 now I can't remember.

Instead of butchering the classes in an effort to make them all viable for all roles....just add more classes and give them all a unique identity and singular function.

I find it odd that you prefer a game where a single character can perform all roles buy just learning them yet you complain that in ESO a single character can perform all roles merely by learning the required skills.

It seems very ironic with a small dash of hypocrisy.

thegreat_one

idk wrote: »

jwjackson5674 wrote: »

This is exactly why I quit this game last month after playing since beta. In my opinion, it is ridiculous to have every class be able to do every job, ie tank, dps, heals. but this come as a result of not having enough classes.

I played FFXI for close to 9 years and FFXIV for a while before ESO came out, and I loved they way their classes, or jobs as they called them, were. FFXI has 22 classes/jobs. FFXIV has 12 or 14 now I can't remember.

Instead of butchering the classes in an effort to make them all viable for all roles....just add more classes and give them all a unique identity and singular function.

I find it odd that you prefer a game where a single character can perform all roles buy just learning them yet you complain that in ESO a single character can perform all roles merely by learning the required skills.

It seems very ironic with a small dash of hypocrisy.

Atleast we are all not Sneaking around with bows by the time we are lvl 50.......

Wing

idk wrote: »

jwjackson5674 wrote: »

This is exactly why I quit this game last month after playing since beta. In my opinion, it is ridiculous to have every class be able to do every job, ie tank, dps, heals. but this come as a result of not having enough classes.

I played FFXI for close to 9 years and FFXIV for a while before ESO came out, and I loved they way their classes, or jobs as they called them, were. FFXI has 22 classes/jobs. FFXIV has 12 or 14 now I can't remember.

Instead of butchering the classes in an effort to make them all viable for all roles....just add more classes and give them all a unique identity and singular function.

I find it odd that you prefer a game where a single character can perform all roles buy just learning them yet you complain that in ESO a single character can perform all roles merely by learning the required skills.

It seems very ironic with a small dash of hypocrisy.

mmmmm

in realm reborn its not as simple as "every class can perform all roles" so much as "a single character can be every class" there are many different classes (jobs, classic FF) in a realm reborn, each with specific playstyles, and you can swap between them.

so like a DK could be the best tank, a templar the best healer, and if you wanted to you could level all of them and swap between them as the need arose. say you prefer to play open world as a DPS nightblade but then tank as a DK for your group, all on one character.

its actually a very cool system (FF was always a job system that your characters could swap between, I personally loved tactics) and has worked out great for them, it allows them to introduce new jobs that everyone can use while respecting that current characters progress and playtime.

this is one of those systems I think most people would hate on just for the sake of it not being in the tradition of western MMO's or WoW "no if you want to play the class then have 10+ characters of each class that you have to do the game 10+ times on just because REASONS"

being able to have one character in ESO and seamlessly level and swap between classes would have allowed us to keep the class identity we have lost because every class has to have the same skills / same dots / same heals, etc. people would not have complained about DK's being the best tank or templar being the best healer if everyone could have full access to them and the ability to change between them as the need arose.

in case it was not clear, you only ever have access to one job or class skills at a time.

Aznarb

I love gw2 content but I can't go into it cuz class feel to weird and clunky to play.
That said class identity are strong and ranger + engi was pretty fun.

Wing

Aznarb wrote: »

I love gw2 content but I can't go into it cuz class feel to weird and clunky to play.
That said class identity are strong and ranger + engi was pretty fun.

yeah once you started getting into 30+ levels difficulty started spiking, and the combat I agree was clunky, it was semi action combat? like they wanted to stick close to tab target and just didn't go all the way and ended up feeling weird.

Faulgor

I don't know much about GW2 but I agree. I was struck from the very beginning how similar ESO's classes are to each other, how they all played fundamentally the same. Most other MMO classes have something unique that defines their playstyle.

Now, confession time, the MMO I played the most is probably Ragnarok Online (pre Renewal of course). There, classes are in some ways very boxed in for their roles (all can DD, some can tank, only Priests can heal), but there was a much wider variety of what Rob Garrett calls "Play Patterns". Both between as well as within classes.

E.g., Monks have Spirit Spheres as another resource required for certain skills. The most powerful skill in the game requires 5 spheres, and you can't regenerate mana (SP) for some time afterwards. Another skill requires 1 sphere and deals more damage the higher the defense of the target is. And my favourite play pattern, a combo monk, uses 1 sphere for the last attack in a combo chain - when attacking you have a certain chance to proc a tripple attack, and afterwards you can use the next skill in a combo if you react quickly enough. It's a very dynamic playstyle, and the only thing comparable in ESO is the Crystal Fragments proc.
And there's so much more for other classes. Thieves have Double Attack which procs double dmg for a normal attack, Assassins can wear Katar type weapons for double (!) crit rate, Knights have spear attacks that deal more damage against larger monsters, Priests can instantly kill undead monsters, Hunters have the highest damage range attacks, Wizards have unique elemental mechanics and ridiculous AoE spells, and on and on. And it's not just damage, when tanking Knights and Crusaders can wear the heaviest armor, Priests have best defensive spells, Monks can negate 90% of all damage, Assassins can dodge/flee tank, etc.

How does any class stand out against any other in ESO?
For DDs, you put down your DoTs and then move through your light attack rotation. Half the skills are identical.
For tanks, you equip 1h+s and taunt, occasionally buff your group with War Horn.
For healers, you equip resto staff and use a HoT and a burst that is currently meta.

I don't think this can be changed without fundamentally redesigning classes to have unique and fun play patterns. They were on to something when they let DKs build stacks with Molten Whip, but that was quickly nerfed. Instead, it should have been expanded. Increasingly higher power fit the attrition focus of DKs so well, it shouldn't be restricted to a single skill, but a general theme when playing a DK - whether you are DPS, tank or healer.
Necromancers were also a step in the right direction, with their use of corpses as a unique resource (just needs some bug and QoL fixes).
And an idea I've been throwing around for Sorcerers, who are lore-wise focused on enchanting - why not use filled soul gems for some skills?
Why not something like Double Attack, a chance to proc a second light attack when light attacking for Nightblades? They used to have an attackspeed buff, that playstyle went nowhere.
There are so many options within the basic combat system of ESO, but if the devs don't use them, it's all moot.

I think one problem is that such behavior is relegated to individual skills or skill lines in ESO, not classes as a whole. Grim Focus builds stacks, but those aren't relevant for anything else a NB does. Aedric Spear skills proc Burning Light, but other Templar skills don't. Etc. That is just not enough to build a unique identity and play pattern for classes.

idk

Wing wrote: »

idk wrote: »

jwjackson5674 wrote: »

This is exactly why I quit this game last month after playing since beta. In my opinion, it is ridiculous to have every class be able to do every job, ie tank, dps, heals. but this come as a result of not having enough classes.

I played FFXI for close to 9 years and FFXIV for a while before ESO came out, and I loved they way their classes, or jobs as they called them, were. FFXI has 22 classes/jobs. FFXIV has 12 or 14 now I can't remember.

Instead of butchering the classes in an effort to make them all viable for all roles....just add more classes and give them all a unique identity and singular function.

I find it odd that you prefer a game where a single character can perform all roles buy just learning them yet you complain that in ESO a single character can perform all roles merely by learning the required skills.

It seems very ironic with a small dash of hypocrisy.

mmmmm

in realm reborn its not as simple as "every class can perform all roles" so much as "a single character can be every class" there are many different classes (jobs, classic FF) in a realm reborn, each with specific playstyles, and you can swap between them.

Actually it is.

You learn a new job (class) and when you want to tank you change to a job that can handle tanking. iirc, you can even have presets for gear. So suggesting it is not as simple as every class can perform all roles, it is as simple as leveling up that job/class. While a different system, it remains pretty much a similar idea.

Aznarb

Wing wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

I love gw2 content but I can't go into it cuz class feel to weird and clunky to play.
That said class identity are strong and ranger + engi was pretty fun.

yeah once you started getting into 30+ levels difficulty started spiking, and the combat I agree was clunky, it was semi action combat? like they wanted to stick close to tab target and just didn't go all the way and ended up feeling weird.

Yup.
I've up every char to 80 and only ranger and engi was smooth to play for me.
The worst is probably the Elem, so many switch to make doesn't feel fun at all.
I don't love also the fact than skill are lock to weapon.

Edit : but the map design of HoT was awesome, I've spent so many hours traveling in any possible aera of this jungle, very amazing.
PoF look boring in other side, hope they will do more map like HoT even if the amount of work is probably insane.

VaranisArano

Wing wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I suspect the Devs have enough on their plate trying to balance the power fantasies and play patterns of their current playerbase without basing their vision on how classes work in a different game entirely.

it is never a bad idea to look at how other games do things.

you end up like Anthem, that reportedly REFUSED to look or talk about how other games did things and ended up being a disaster because among other things it ended up with problems that other games had already solved.

STEAL! all the time

if someone else has a good idea or a great mechanic F'n steal it. there is no reason to reinvent a wheel just for the sake of doing it when somebody else already made the best wheel.

ESO is struggling with class identity, to the point that they made a thread and actual launcher announcement trying to explain it a bit, and as I stated in the OP, GW2 is a very similar game that one of the highlights was its class identity. its worth looking at what other games had great class identity and asking yourself "why?" and then perhaps using the answer to FIX the problems of your own, it saves time, money, and playerbase.

One of the major reasons ESO is struggling with class identity is that they are trying to change the horse midstream (for good reasons) and annoying experienced players in the process.

ZOS already had class identity. The 4 main classes had well established power fantasies and play patterns, ones that players identified with.

Now, ZOS is trying to change the game to adapt to the reality of what players want. Players want to be able to play all the roles on all the classes - yes, lots on the forums don't, but most players seem to. Players want to have class skills that support Stamina builds (which is a complete change from launch). These are probably good things, since they do mesh with what a lot of players seem to want out of ESO.

The major reason they are struggling in that they are stepping all over their players' established power fantasies and play patterns to do it. StamDK is an excellent example: players want Stam whip and powerful DOTs, while ZOS gives them Stonefist and is nerfing the attrition based combat style of DKs. The problem is that ZOS is changing the power fantasy/play pattern too far from what their experienced players identified with.

The other reason is that they keep changing stuff every update, so no one is ever sure what's happening to their play pattern every three months.

I don't see how looking to other games or bringing in new mechanics is going to help with that. How is GW2 going to help me feel like I'm playing my MagDK the way I've been able to play my MagDK in ESO?

I don't particularly want to play other games. I want to play ESO and the classes I've been playing in ESO. ZoS doesnt need to reinvent the wheel or steal the wheel. They already have their classes with established identities that they need to refine, do it quickly, and then let players have time to settle in without constant changes.

Looking at other games for their class identity seems to me to be a really good way to increase the disconnect between how players currently see/play their class and how the devs think we ought to see/play our class, and that's a bad thing.

Zorgon_The_Revenged

ESO




Some other games

StormeReigns

Zorgon_The_Revenged wrote: »

ESO




What the other games offer and promise

What the other games actually provide

Donny_Vito

Unfortunately any talk about ESO when referencing a different game is always met by the white knights. You are on ESO forums...how dare you state ESO is inferior to another game.

Kagukan

Every class can play any role. That is the vision. What is the point of having alt characters? So you can do the exact same thing a little different? Silly!

AhPook_Is_Here

GW2 has an excellent combat system but it's not a very good match for this game. I'm surprised nobody even mentioned how good the small group play is with a team of players built around solid combo field/finisher play. That kind of skill tier isn't really for ESO players, this is a far more causal game, built mainly around PVE, GW2 is a PVP game at its core.

Wolfpaw

GW2 by far is my favorite mmorpg, unfortunately some lousy decisions kept GW2 from a console port...& ANet has paid for that. Class identity is great, pvp is a lot of fun. Miss my Druid!

ZoS was really smart bringing ESO over to console...with little competition, console has carried this game for years.

Araneae6537

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Unfortunately any talk about ESO when referencing a different game is always met by the white knights. You are on ESO forums...how dare you state ESO is inferior to another game.

Not at all! I have posted elsewhere my opinion that mounts in GW2 are far and away the best! Each feels very different to ride and offers different advantages, lovely animations, and feel of momentum! I would love for different types of mounts in ESO to have different feels like that and all of them start, stop and turn too quickly.

And as @Aznarb pointed out, the Heart of Thorns maps are amazing and really unique!

But this thread was about classes, which I am currently rather bitter with GW2 about many of the changes they’ve made over the past year or so.

From what I’ve read, it sounds like there were some class features in ESO that were better in the past, but I can’t really comment on that as I only started playing this past July. I can see room for improvement, sure, but not in adding restrictions to what a class can do, although stronger baseline strengths and weaknesses could be a good thing perhaps.