CP & Class Rework

Jabbs_Giggity

What I had thought about, as a replacement for CP Trees would be an alternative Identity given to each Class in the form of a "Specialization Focus". Each Class would retain their respective Skill Trees without morphs until they reach level 50. Upon reaching "Champion" Status, you would have a choice between 2-3 specialization roles, each with different Morph options on skills. CP Points would serve purely as passive bonuses based on your chosen focus.

Nightblades

• Rogues (Stamina-based) - focusing on traps, ranged projectiles and strategy.
• Assassins (Either focus) - focusing on quick and deadly strikes using fast movement and shadows. [Bleeds and Poison, or Oblivion{ish}] "Death by a thousand cuts"
• Blood Mages (Magicka-based) - focusing on elemental damage direct to the health of an opponent.

Dragonknights

• Dragonborn (Magicka-based) - Focusing on strength and control. [Tank Option]
• Striker (Stamina-based) - Focusing on prowess and quickness to deliver massive bleeds and overwhelming pressure. [Like that of a Dragon]
• **Cool Name for Dragon** (Magicka-based) - Focusing on fire to smelt their enemy.

Templar

• Cleric (Magicka-based) - Focusing on healing and group utility.
• Zealot (Stamina-based) - Focusing on speed and strength to stay in the battle delivering powerful devastation with physical damage.
• Paladin (Magicka-based) - Focusing on Holy infusion to smite their enemy from afar or near.

Sorcerer

• Wizard (Magicka-based) - Focusing on Lightning, Earth and Dark Magic using speed and slight of hand.
• Battle-mage (Hybrid) - Focusing on melee-play using the elements to supplement delivery of devastating attacks.
• Monk (Stamina-based) - Focusing on fast attacks and speed to suppress enemies and uses arcane knowledge to trick or disorient enemies.

Warden

• Mage (Magicka-based) - Focusing on frost elements to hinder, debuff and damage enemies.
• Druid (Stamina-based) - Focusing on transformations into beasts and controlling the terrain to unleash on their enemies.
• Guardian (Hybrid) - Focuses on absorbing burst damage into damage over time and transferring it into damage.

Necromancer
**This class was pretty well-thought-out, but could easily be turned into an assortment of undead type specializations.

Xvorg

Comment

I like the idea (in fact, it reminds me a litle of PoE), but I think it should be developed a little more.

For example the blood mage option seems a little straightforward. Imho it should allow also the option to go Sap Tank, which was a very good example of the "play as you want" spirit this game used to have at launch, or the "vampiric killer" in which you are rewarded with sustain for killing/doing dmg to an enemy

Jabbs_Giggity

Xvorg wrote: »

I like the idea (in fact, it reminds me a litle of PoE), but I think it should be developed a little more.

For example the blood mage option seems a little straightforward. Imho it should allow also the option to go Sap Tank, which was a very good example of the "play as you want" spirit this game used to have at launch, or the "vampiric killer" in which you are rewarded with sustain for killing/doing dmg to an enemy

The topic was meant to be generic as an example of the overall idea. Realistically, this would never happen with ESO because it would require the game to be completely redesigned....I think this is the approach that should have been taken from launch.

Sahidom

Comment

RE: Nightblades

I posted this before and other older posts were similar;

Before they can even consider class identity they need to rework our skill trees, such as the following:

Assassination

• Assassin's Blade
• Veiled Strike < moved from Shadow Tree
• Add Melee DOT < re-purpose Debilitate from Siphoning Tree
• Marked Target
• Grim Focus < adopt current Bound Armament skill mechanic proposal, as the skill to hold up pressure while weaving Light Attacks.

Shadow

• Teleport Strike < moved from Assassination Tree (e.g. Shadow Step/Strike)
• Shadow Cloak
• Blur > moved from Assassination Tree
• Aspect of Terror
• Summon Shade

Siphoning - Despite, Nightshades not having a magic affinity to Blood Magic

• Strife
• Malevolent Offering
• Malevolent (Shadow) Path > rework and move to Siphoning (PBAoE)
• Siphoning Strikes
• Drain Power

You may disagree or agree.

The suggestion places our offense in one tree, gap-closing/utility in one and range/heal in another. This advocacy for moving skills to appropriate trees will significantly help the class. THEN; the developers would have an improved class skill tree framework to audit/review class skill mechanics for rework or modification.

What I'm saying, you can't have Rogue, Assassin, or Blood Mage without a complete rework of everything; BUT you could take the posted suggestion on fixing the classes' skill trees and shape those skill trees appropriately.

Jabbs_Giggity

Sahidom wrote: »

RE: Nightblades

I posted this before and other older posts were similar;

Before they can even consider class identity they need to rework our skill trees, such as the following:

Assassination

• Assassin's Blade
• Veiled Strike < moved from Shadow Tree
• Add Melee DOT < re-purpose Debilitate from Siphoning Tree
• Marked Target
• Grim Focus < adopt current Bound Armament skill mechanic proposal, as the skill to hold up pressure while weaving Light Attacks.

Shadow

• Teleport Strike < moved from Assassination Tree (e.g. Shadow Step/Strike)
• Shadow Cloak
• Blur > moved from Assassination Tree
• Aspect of Terror
• Summon Shade

Siphoning - Despite, Nightshades not having a magic affinity to Blood Magic

• Strife
• Malevolent Offering
• Malevolent (Shadow) Path > rework and move to Siphoning (PBAoE)
• Siphoning Strikes
• Drain Power

You may disagree or agree.

The suggestion places our offense in one tree, gap-closing/utility in one and range/heal in another. This advocacy for moving skills to appropriate trees will significantly help the class. THEN; the developers would have an improved class skill tree framework to audit/review class skill mechanics for rework or modification.

What I'm saying, you can't have Rogue, Assassin, or Blood Mage without a complete rework of everything; BUT you could take the posted suggestion on fixing the classes' skill trees and shape those skill trees appropriately.

Completely agree. I have advocated more many of your mentioned changes regarding moving skills around from Tree to Tree, as some do not fit the current "theme" of the Class Tree for NB. Why ZOS did not do this during one of their skill audits?! Who only knows...

The biggest problem that I see going forward with Classes and Combat, is that they want every class to be able to Tank, DPS and Heal. This is a generic approach in an MMO to get more Casual players to play freely > which translates into more dollars from Crown sales because Casuals = Esales.

Reworking some of the Class skill trees would be a great start to improving the game, in general. However, the Class system as-is is stale and non-rewarding anymore, since ZOS has gutted most of Class iconic skills' functions over the years.

I main a Templar (Stam) and subMain a Templar (Mag). However, I have a lot of play time on my NB (Stam and Mag) and DK (Mag). I know the classes well enough to be semi-proficient at all aspects of their game play (Except for Necro - didn't even buy Elsweyr).

As long as casuals are pleased by ZOS's direction, they will buy Crowns. As long as non-Casuals continue to Sub, ZOS will not listen.

Sahidom

Comment

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

RE: Nightblades

I posted this before and other older posts were similar;

Before they can even consider class identity they need to rework our skill trees, such as the following:

Assassination

• Assassin's Blade
• Veiled Strike < moved from Shadow Tree
• Add Melee DOT < re-purpose Debilitate from Siphoning Tree
• Marked Target
• Grim Focus < adopt current Bound Armament skill mechanic proposal, as the skill to hold up pressure while weaving Light Attacks.

Shadow

• Teleport Strike < moved from Assassination Tree (e.g. Shadow Step/Strike)
• Shadow Cloak
• Blur > moved from Assassination Tree
• Aspect of Terror
• Summon Shade

Siphoning - Despite, Nightshades not having a magic affinity to Blood Magic

• Strife
• Malevolent Offering
• Malevolent (Shadow) Path > rework and move to Siphoning (PBAoE)
• Siphoning Strikes
• Drain Power

You may disagree or agree.

The suggestion places our offense in one tree, gap-closing/utility in one and range/heal in another. This advocacy for moving skills to appropriate trees will significantly help the class. THEN; the developers would have an improved class skill tree framework to audit/review class skill mechanics for rework or modification.

What I'm saying, you can't have Rogue, Assassin, or Blood Mage without a complete rework of everything; BUT you could take the posted suggestion on fixing the classes' skill trees and shape those skill trees appropriately.

Completely agree. I have advocated more many of your mentioned changes regarding moving skills around from Tree to Tree, as some do not fit the current "theme" of the Class Tree for NB. Why ZOS did not do this during one of their skill audits?! Who only knows...

The biggest problem that I see going forward with Classes and Combat, is that they want every class to be able to Tank, DPS and Heal. This is a generic approach in an MMO to get more Casual players to play freely > which translates into more dollars from Crown sales because Casuals = Esales.

This would still be possible with the suggested changes to the skill trees. For example, Tanks would gain more benefit with the Shadow tree e.g. Blur (Major Evasion/Snare Removal), Shadow Cloak (self-heal), Summon Shade (Minor Defile) with the Shadow passives offering +resistances per skill use and more health. They could use Leeching Strikes for a passive Stamina restore to ease the blocking cost through heavy mechanics.

Healers have their primary healing effects in the Siphoning Tree e.g. Malevolent Offering (Although, this skill needs some rework attention), Refreshing Path (Shadow Path morph), Strife (offensive +2 person heal) and enough bar space for the Restoration staff or Undaunted skills. They could even slot Shadow tree skills to improve their mobility.

Also consider this, most online builds do not use more than 2/5ths of the action bar for class skills. Right now, character builds are more centered around the numerous set combinations than actual class skills. This degrade the importance of class niches and specialties, and all the infighting over combat mechanics have overshadowed the importance until now.

This includes all the other core classes of the game.

Luckylancer

Comment

This game wont be ESO after this change. It is like reworking the whole game.

chrightt

No

No, this defeats the whole purpose of ESO’s horizontal progression system. With more skills and different “subclasses” you typically end up with an even more strict meta. Not to mention less skill choice and harder balance for sure. Think about it, if a class specializes in a handful of skills, your main skill picks will be those handful of skills. With ESO differentiating between stam and mag already, further specific subclass will also need to cater to one or both of these resources as well, making balancing harder and variety more narrow.

With an unique approach at MMORPG genre and its class/combat system, ESO will not find an easy equivalent solution from more traditional MMORPGs. While it might sound nice and obvious to some people, a closer inspection shows the multitude of flaws this system creates. If ESO implements such a system as you suggest in the same manner you suggest it, this game will most definitely go down the gutter.

Fal_El

Yes

[

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Warden

• Mage (Magicka-based) - Focusing on frost elements to hinder, debuff and damage enemies.
• Druid (Stamina-based) - Focusing on transformations into beasts and controlling the terrain to unleash on their enemies.
• Guardian (Hybrid) - Focuses on absorbing burst damage into damage over time and transferring it into damage.

.

I really like your idea for the warden👍
The warden has one big issue: class identity. It suffers from its own diversity, ice/plant/animals are not that compatible with each other.
By separating them(at least in name and specialization) I think that warden could finally be free of its identity problem.
Good work!

Jabbs_Giggity

chrightt wrote: »

No, this defeats the whole purpose of ESO’s horizontal progression system. With more skills and different “subclasses” you typically end up with an even more strict meta. Not to mention less skill choice and harder balance for sure. Think about it, if a class specializes in a handful of skills, your main skill picks will be those handful of skills. With ESO differentiating between stam and mag already, further specific subclass will also need to cater to one or both of these resources as well, making balancing harder and variety more narrow.

With an unique approach at MMORPG genre and its class/combat system, ESO will not find an easy equivalent solution from more traditional MMORPGs. While it might sound nice and obvious to some people, a closer inspection shows the multitude of flaws this system creates. If ESO implements such a system as you suggest in the same manner you suggest it, this game will most definitely go down the gutter.

You make a valid point. I did not realize it as I was writing this up with literally minimal thought to it prior...but another comment outlined the ingenious of a "themed" approach to the current 3 Trees each class is given.

Fal_El wrote: »

[

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Warden

• Mage (Magicka-based) - Focusing on frost elements to hinder, debuff and damage enemies.
• Druid (Stamina-based) - Focusing on transformations into beasts and controlling the terrain to unleash on their enemies.
• Guardian (Hybrid) - Focuses on absorbing burst damage into damage over time and transferring it into damage.

.

I really like your idea for the warden👍
The warden has one big issue: class identity. It suffers from its own diversity, ice/plant/animals are not that compatible with each other.
By separating them(at least in name and specialization) I think that warden could finally be free of its identity problem.
Good work!

Setting aside a "specialization selection", what if Class Trees were diversely themed like this example above for each Class instead of a homogenized DPS, Tank and Healing tree for each class. I think this could bring more build diversity to the game, both PVE and PVP. Although it would definitely bring in more RPG casuals to the game, I think even for "Elites" or Hardcore players this would allow them to build to what they want to focus at in-game as well.

For me, I would love to lean towards a Templar Zealot build that is fast-paced with respectable damage and quickness. I main a Stamplar and the play-style fits, but the problem is that Templars are slow....VERY slow....and their damage is hit or miss really - not reliable.

spekdah

Yes

Really like your ideas. Class identity is what ESO lacks, there are touches of themes but it's not coherent until necromancer.
Warden almost had it, you almost want to just use all 5 animal abilities for example in some builds. Ice is lacking sets to synergise with amogst other things.

Even if some classes had the same skill, for example if they decided to add a damage shield of some kind. Warden could have a bramble theme, dragon knight could have scaley spikes, sorcerer could have something arcane.

Be nice if the overarching theme, mechanics and visual art all lined up better.

Instead of adding bits and pieces to skills here and there, would rather they add a new skill line for each class.

idk

No

Besides the "rework" not being overly general to the point it really says nothing, it is not a good idea to redesign the classes. That is just a waste of time.

Further, it is clearly more restrictive since some classes have skills with a good stam and magicak morph and OP wants to eliminate that so the idea seems that it would offer less to us than we have now. This is probably a bigger issue than the waste of time and money to totally redesign the skill lines and more.

The comments on the CP said even less so not worth even commenting on.

Bowser

No

Remove CP entirely.

GeorgeBlack

Never cared for passive stats in order to give a false sense of progression.
Delete CP, adjust PvE maths to make up for the difference and be done with it.

Igneous Shield and Volitile armor isnt enough for a stamDK to be called Dragonknight, for example. I cant care less about adding points to thaumatarge because, hey! you got DoTs how about you make those stronger? Isnt it amazing? The magsorc will spend on Bastion or whatever and who cares?

And dont tell me people feel like building something unique and smart because of CP allocation

Noisivid

Yes

I like the basic idea but DragonKnights are such a mess at the moment that ZOS needs to fix them before attempting to implement something like this.

To clarify DKs are a semi-functional mess that can be made to "work" after a fashion, but they're still a mess. There are alot of threads about the issues so no need to rehash here. But I do like the general idea.

Noisivid

Yes

Xvorg wrote: »

I like the idea (in fact, it reminds me a litle of PoE), but I think it should be developed a little more.

For example the blood mage option seems a little straightforward. Imho it should allow also the option to go Sap Tank, which was a very good example of the "play as you want" spirit this game used to have at launch, or the "vampiric killer" in which you are rewarded with sustain for killing/doing dmg to an enemy

Yes!!! bring back sap-tanks and blazeplars. PLEASE!!!

SinXGreen

Yes

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

What I had thought about, as a replacement for CP Trees would be an alternative Identity given to each Class in the form of a "Specialization Focus". Each Class would retain their respective Skill Trees without morphs until they reach level 50. Upon reaching "Champion" Status, you would have a choice between 2-3 specialization roles, each with different Morph options on skills. CP Points would serve purely as passive bonuses based on your chosen focus.

Nightblades

• Rogues (Stamina-based) - focusing on traps, ranged projectiles and strategy.
• Assassins (Either focus) - focusing on quick and deadly strikes using fast movement and shadows. [Bleeds and Poison, or Oblivion{ish}] "Death by a thousand cuts"
• Blood Mages (Magicka-based) - focusing on elemental damage direct to the health of an opponent.

Dragonknights

• Dragonborn (Magicka-based) - Focusing on strength and control. [Tank Option]
• Striker (Stamina-based) - Focusing on prowess and quickness to deliver massive bleeds and overwhelming pressure. [Like that of a Dragon]
• **Cool Name for Dragon** (Magicka-based) - Focusing on fire to smelt their enemy.

Templar

• Cleric (Magicka-based) - Focusing on healing and group utility.
• Zealot (Stamina-based) - Focusing on speed and strength to stay in the battle delivering powerful devastation with physical damage.
• Paladin (Magicka-based) - Focusing on Holy infusion to smite their enemy from afar or near.

Sorcerer

• Wizard (Magicka-based) - Focusing on Lightning, Earth and Dark Magic using speed and slight of hand.
• Battle-mage (Hybrid) - Focusing on melee-play using the elements to supplement delivery of devastating attacks.
• Monk (Stamina-based) - Focusing on fast attacks and speed to suppress enemies and uses arcane knowledge to trick or disorient enemies.

Warden

• Mage (Magicka-based) - Focusing on frost elements to hinder, debuff and damage enemies.
• Druid (Stamina-based) - Focusing on transformations into beasts and controlling the terrain to unleash on their enemies.
• Guardian (Hybrid) - Focuses on absorbing burst damage into damage over time and transferring it into damage.

Necromancer
**This class was pretty well-thought-out, but could easily be turned into an assortment of undead type specializations.

I'd like to see this happen but the number of specialized types is questionable. Mag healer, Mag tank, Mag DD. Stam Tank. Stam healer, Stam DD. Hybrid DD, Hybrid Tank, Hybrid healer. The hybrid dd may be a stretch lol but worth saying. Even if they said sure lets do it, between meeting, new abilities concepts, animations and test to be added to help give better identity to specialized types it may take forever to players.