The Nerevarine of TES III is.. Dremora Xykenaz?

Aigym_Hlervu

As you know ESO reveals truth of Dratha's long age and her attitude towards all men. She has made a deal with Dremora Xykenaz: he grants her immortality in exchange for her soul. He says: "..on a day of my Master's choosing, I will come in the guise of a mortal man to claim your withered soul for Coldharbour." The reason to do so were her visions of a distant future we witness before saving her. She says "..Hortator and Incarnate ... must rise. I have to prepare. Hear me, Incarnate! Hear me. I have to.. Must be ready." and so on. So she prepared.

Dratha is still alive by the 3E 427 when the Nerevarine comes to her place in Tel Mora. Except the Nerevarine there are only two male Telvanni guards residing at that tower. But we can ultimately kill all the Telvanni council members including Dratha instead of persuading them (as is their custom for resolving disputes) to vote us their Hortator. Knowing the Devs attitude towards canon and non-canon things this way is a possible canon but unlike Neloth the fate of Mistress Dratha is unknown, she might come back in TES VI like Neloth did it in TES V thus making it all clear. But!..

If a certain player kills Dratha won't that mean this certain player is actually.. Dremora Xykenaz? Thus it makes the Nerevarine a Molag Bal minion. How could Azura still guide Bal's minion? Well.. Molag Grunda is Bal's daughter and she is a Winged Twilight both in 2E 582 and 3E 427. Winged Twilights are supposed to be not just some roaming lesser Daedra but personal messengers of Azura. Moreover Azura and Molag were somehow allied in TES II. I might be wrong but what I also know about Daedra is that they do not lie. Molag Bal is known to be the Lord of Lies but just like other Princes he never lies. So it is very unlikely Xykenaz entered an agreement to fail to receive his payment so obviously.

The Nerevarine left Tamriel to Akavir after the events of TES III. But that's just a rumor. You know the official Pocket Guide to the Empire 3rd Edition states we killed Sotha Sil along with Almalexia but that doesn't make us his murderes anyway. If the Nerevarine is Xykenaz it is quite clear why he left Tamriel - he just went back to Oblivion.

There is a concept of the the Prisoner (the way Sotha Sil names us - players). In order to be the one a character must apprehend two insights simultaneously. Xykenaz is a literal prisoner of his realm just like we all are the Prisoners of Nirn. Still it is unknown if he apprehends the Two Insights. But regarding a very strange reason of his imprisonment he might do.

I still have to study much on this because I haven't found anything useful regarding this matter on Internet. So maybe you already know something that ultimately answers the question if the Nerevarine who kills Dratha is truly a Daedroth.
So I know Dratha might return some day and make it all clear. But she might not.
Here are two questions:
* Are there any ultimate arguments the Nerevarine can never be Xykenaz disguised?
* Are there any direct arguments the Nerevarine is Xykenaz? How possible a player character can be a Daedroth within the current Lore and game mechanics?
Thanks in advance!

Robo_Hobo

I think if the Nerevarine murders her it just breaks the pact with Dremora Xykenaz. Or if literally anything else kills her before then.

That might have been the deal but I don't think he has the power to ensure fate against anything else that could kill her until the day of her master's choosing. He might have never even planned on actually killing her and just found it humorous to see her live in such paranoia whenever a mortal man is near her - I mean after all, this is the Dremora that put a whoopie cushion on Molag Bal's throne and got banished for it.

VaranisArano

Here's my thoughts on why its unlikely.

First off, while I think it would be valid to roleplay through Morrowind as Xykenaz provided you were prepared to handwave some of the things I list below, I don't think the gameplay supports the player character unknowingly being a Dremora on a mission. See, you already are an unknown other character...and that's Nerevar.

Even though we have the option to declare that we aren't Nerevar or we don't know, both Dagoth Ur and Moon-and-Star indicate that we are a reincarnation of or at least mantling the original Nerevar. Its unlikely that Azura, having chosen her previous champions from aming mortals as seen from their ghosts and having fought for her prophecy in ESO's Morrowind, would allow her prophecy to be subverted by one of Molag Bal's dremora.

The prophecies requires an outlander, born under a certain sign, who can be infected with Corpus. Daedra, to the best of our our knowledge, aren't born under the same signs as those born on Nirn.

Moreover, while we've seen a powerful daedric entity maintain disguise as a mortal in ESO for a decent amount of time in front of powerful NPCs, we've not seen that power from Dremora. In Morrowind, we meet Azura, Vivec, Divayth Fyr, Dagoth Ur, and Almalexia - all extra-powerful individuals who we'd expect to identify a Dremora in disguise. This also assumes that Emperor Uriel Septim's prophetic dreams are oblivious to the fact that you've been a daedra in disguise when he had you exiled and sent to Caius.

Depending on your playthrough choices, a Male Nerevarine can persuade or bribe Mistress Dratha for her vote instead of killing her.

Finally, there's no canon stated that the Nerevarine is male. A female Nerevarine playthrough makes the whole theory moot.


So while I think you could play as Xykenaz if you really wanted to, I don't think TES 3 Morrowind really supports that interpretation as canon. There's too many ways to play that don't end with a male Nerevarine killing Dratha.

Aigym_Hlervu

A very insightful reply, @VaranisArano, thank you! Especially regarding Barbas - I've almost forgotten he was also disguised. The only matter I do not share your opinion is this: there is canon stated that the Nerevarine is male. "...ignorant of the role he was to play in that nation's history..." - you remember those words at the beginning of the story? And Master Neloth's phrase in TES V "You are too young to remember the Nerevarine. He defeated Dagoth Ur and saved us all from the blight." gives us the final answer on that matter. He spoke to the Nerevarine himself thus could not be mistaken.

Yeah, I know those playthrough choices of killing or sparing Dratha - that is the main reasons I asked two questions instead of one. I think the same way it is unlikely Xykenaz to be the Nerevarine, but supposedly I'm interested in the "Dark side" line of course. This way of thought gives more questions than the other one we know for sure. TES III did not support that "Daedric Nerevarine" but what could prevent the developers to write some dialogue lines in their new game to make their previous creation reviewed entirely? It's just a thought anyway.

I also thought Dagoth Ur was the only true witness we were not Dremora. But I do remember his question if we were truly the Incarnate. He was uncertain. The Moon-and-Star ring - no one has ever worn it before us. But the NPCs wearing that ring do not die. Yes, it is due to a lack of a certain script, but it makes the matter arguable. That ring story might turn out to be just a beautiful legend.

And the prophecies.. First time I met Chodala in ESO I was excited how was he supposed to meet all those requirements I had to meet back.. well, forward in the 3rd Era. I was surprised he wasn't even supposed to try. But on the other hand that doesn't mean the Nerevarine should have not met them finally.. Nah, we need something concrete here to give us a certain statement that Xykenaz is not the Nerevarine. Or vice versa - something certain telling us he is.

Thank you for your opinion, friend! I hope we finally get the answer.

Konstant_Tel_Necris

VaranisArano wrote: »

Finally, there's no canon stated that the Nerevarine is male. A female Nerevarine playthrough makes the whole theory moot.

Actually Neloth in Dargonborn say this:
"You are too young to remember the Nerevarine. He defeated Dagoth Ur and saved us all from the blight."
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Dragonborn:Neloth

VaranisArano

Konstant_Tel_Necris wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Finally, there's no canon stated that the Nerevarine is male. A female Nerevarine playthrough makes the whole theory moot.

Actually Neloth in Dargonborn say this:
"You are too young to remember the Nerevarine. He defeated Dagoth Ur and saved us all from the blight."
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Dragonborn:Neloth

Yeah, I missed that. The OP already pointed that out.

On a personal level, I find that extremely disappointing, as my Nerevarine is female.

Aigym_Hlervu

VaranisArano wrote: »

On a personal level, I find that extremely disappointing, as my Nerevarine is female.

I think you don't have to be disappointed on that. The lore is dubious, but Todd Howard gave us some proper commentaries regarding the order of what to consider canon during his PAX East 2019 Interview:

"If you saw it on the screen that's number one, that's the most truth. If you read it in the game, that's second truth. If you read it in an official thing outside the game, in the manual, that's the third. If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right! But that's the main three. On the screen, something you see happen, regardless of what game it is or when it came out, that for us is the primary. A book in the game is second, and then a book that's official outside the game is third."

That makes your female Nerevarine canon while you see her on the screen, she's canon for you. This case Neloth talked about some other Nerevarine he spoke with. It is just like I have never actually confronted Almalexia due to that disgusting glitch in Mournhold where you have to place some satchel charges in order to blow up the wall but they do not explode. I got stuck there 17 years ago and since that time I've never actually confronted Almalexia in the Clockwork City. But I'm not disappointed knowing some other Nerevarines have accomplished it. Somehow I'm even grateful I haven't seen her dark side during my play session so she's always been that good lady for me as most Dunmer think of her. As I've said referencing Sotha Sil, we all are Prisoners of Nirn first and the local heroes second. That makes us so special and so different in our ways but we all are still those who we are.

VaranisArano

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

On a personal level, I find that extremely disappointing, as my Nerevarine is female.

I think you don't have to be disappointed on that. The lore is dubious, but Todd Howard gave us some proper commentaries regarding the order of what to consider canon during his PAX East 2019 Interview:

"If you saw it on the screen that's number one, that's the most truth. If you read it in the game, that's second truth. If you read it in an official thing outside the game, in the manual, that's the third. If you read it from a fan on the Internet that's way down there, that's like not on the list, right! But that's the main three. On the screen, something you see happen, regardless of what game it is or when it came out, that for us is the primary. A book in the game is second, and then a book that's official outside the game is third."

That makes your female Nerevarine canon while you see her on the screen, she's canon for you. This case Neloth talked about some other Nerevarine he spoke with. It is just like I have never actually confronted Almalexia due to that disgusting glitch in Mournhold where you have to place some satchel charges in order to blow up the wall but they do not explode. I got stuck there 17 years ago and since that time I've never actually confronted Almalexia in the Clockwork City. But I'm not disappointed knowing some other Nerevarines have accomplished it. Somehow I'm even grateful I haven't seen her dark side during my play session so she's always been that good lady for me as most Dunmer think of her. As I've said referencing Sotha Sil, we all are Prisoners of Nirn first and the local heroes second. That makes us so special and so different in our ways but we all are still those who we are.

Oh goodness, I hit that same glitch with the satchel charges when I played Morrowind last year! I'm on PC, so I'm pretty sure I used console commands to get past that part, but that's a really cool twist to your play through.

Aigym_Hlervu

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

I think if the Nerevarine murders her it just breaks the pact with Dremora Xykenaz.

Yes, I guess this is the only way possible. Anyway, they haven't discussed the terms of immortality and the consequences of ineffectiveness of their contract. Bad contract. Thank you, @Robo_Hobo! That answer suits!

Aigym_Hlervu

VaranisArano wrote: »

Oh goodness, I hit that same glitch with the satchel charges when I played Morrowind last year! I'm on PC, so I'm pretty sure I used console commands to get past that part, but that's a really cool twist to your play through.

Maybe some times I'll return to Morrowind of the Third Era armed with some patches that fix that glitch along with the others. But back that time I can't recall if I could ever find any fixes. Anyway, the usage of console commands or cheat codes while playing has always been some kind of an invisible moral wall for me I could not ever pass in any game.

ghastley

A lot depends on the phrase "mortal man", and whether that is taken to mean "a generic NPC" in game terms - i.e. not a creature. It does not need to rule out female, elf, beast race, although Mistress Dratha probably had a specific interpretation of her own that did.

Aigym_Hlervu

ghastley wrote: »

A lot depends on the phrase "mortal man", and whether that is taken to mean "a generic NPC" in game terms - i.e. not a creature. It does not need to rule out female, elf, beast race, although Mistress Dratha probably had a specific interpretation of her own that did.

Well, I think @Robo_Hobo gave a full answer. I can only add that we have also to pay attention to the word "mortal" in Xykenaz' phrase. Long before we meet Dratha to vote us the Hortator to possibly kill her we meet Dagoth Gares there who curses us with Corprus thus making us immortal due to ongoing help of Divayth Fyr. This could be another clue against my own theory I've stated in the very first post above. At least it is a clue until we receive some new information on that.