PVP is a strange new world

DrFuzzyFish

So I've been trying to give PVP a go, I'm not really a competitive player so I don't tend to try all that hard or get annoyed WHEN I die, but damn it doesn't really feel easily accessible especially solo, so I tried to group up which is a struggle itself but then they tend to be.. shall we say "dictatorial", like why are you moaning about my dps? I don't even know what means. It's surprisingly been kinda fun tho just seems a little psychotic lol, Is it always like this or is it because of the ongoing event? Or am I just meeting people having a bad day?

Also is cyrodiil always empty? Feels like I'm just riding around with nothing to do.

Vapirko

If a PvP group is complaining about your DPS then they're a PvE group and don't really know much about PvP. DPS doesn't really matter here all that much because you cant stand there and consistently output damage. Your ability to keep yourself alive while weaving in your buffs/debuffs and line up your burst while out putting enough pressure to keep your opponent on their back foot is what matters. It can take months and even years to become an effective solo PvPer and its harder than ever. My suggestion is to start by dueling friends, learn to stay alive only as you should be able to not die if you're purely on the defensive. Once you can do that start weaving in attacks. Fight players that are better than you, lose, try again. After some months or maybe a year or two you might be an effective solo player. Also you'll need someone to check your build at first and to make sure you've got the right skills, CP distribution, gear, enough crit resist etc.

Only the 30 day CP campaign ever has players in it all day. Right now its empty because of the event and there really just arent all that many PvPers.

VaranisArano

In IC? It's probably because of the event. Your DPS shouldnt be an issue in a group. The PVE enemies are WB level at most, and players aren't killed with the same DPS tactics.

Otherwise, some of the basics of grouping up in PVP:
1. Stay on Crown. Someone in group is the leader, signified by the Crown symbol. Stay as close to them as possible. Generally, they are one of the more experienced PVPers in the group, the majority of your group will stick near them, and frankly, if you aren't with the group there's not much point to being in the group.

2. Equip at least one skill that helps your group members. Groups in PVP go by "strength in numbers", and the better groups support each other. If you equip anything that helps your group, like Purge, Magelight, a defensive skill or buff that benefits more than yourself, you'll be doing better than a lot of PUGs.

3. Fight within your group. Related to number 1, you want to fight with your group nearby for protection and because your damage together is far greater than yours alone. Unless you are certain you can kill that one lone guy peeling away on your own, don't chase. Also, counterintuitively, don't run away from a fight you are sure your group will lose. There's something awkward about being the last one alive when your group wiped after a good fight - unless you are putting up a Cyrodiil red camp, its usually better to die with the group and then respawn with the group.

4. Don't be super squishy. Do hold block if you are just standing around. There's a gear set called Vicious Death that sets off a chain reaction of damage to other nearby players if one player gets killed. Not only does holding block, staying alert, and using detect pots or skills help keep you alive if your group gets bombed, you don't want to be the squishy player who gets targeted to start off the Vicious Death bomb.

Advice specific to Cyrodiil: Bring some siege equipment. Oil pots and ballistas are the bread and butter of groups that attack and defend keeps. Ballistas for doors/walls. Oil Pots for defense. If someone else sets down siege weapons, do not use it. Many experienced PVPers will run multiple siege weapons on cooldown and it depends on the player as to whether or not they get grumpy about getting on their siege.

Hope that helps!

Thogard

It’s rough out there for new PvPers.

Most of the zone chat generals that invite people from zone chat tend to be really really bad at pvp. They have been playing a long time but haven’t learned how to do so well, so they haven’t managed to establish a consistent group or be invited to a more exclusive group yet. These people tend to blame their group for their own failures.

Best way to learn PvP is the BGs. The MMR system is pretty decent at putting you up against similarly experienced players, and you won’t have the massive egos of PvP failures trying to blame you for their own shortcomings.

Iskiab

Thogard wrote: »

It’s rough out there for new PvPers.

Most of the zone chat generals that invite people from zone chat tend to be really really bad at pvp. They have been playing a long time but haven’t learned how to do so well, so they haven’t managed to establish a consistent group or be invited to a more exclusive group yet. These people tend to blame their group for their own failures.

Best way to learn PvP is the BGs. The MMR system is pretty decent at putting you up against similarly experienced players, and you won’t have the massive egos of PvP failures trying to blame you for their own shortcomings.

I agree about learning in BGs. I was surprised to find out my cyrodiil specs work well in BGs and vice versa. If something’s good it’s good, and in too large a group it’s hard to tell what’s good.

Only thing I disagree about is talking about group generals. They don’t have to be personally good at dueling or whatever to be good at leading, it’s a different skill set. Our raid leader gets called out all the time to duel and he knows he’d probably lose to the people challenging him, but he’s great at leading raids regardless and we play better when he’s leading making him indispensable to the group.

A DPS complaint doesn’t make sense, but straying away from the crown or choosing your own targets will irk them. There’s no assist in this game and the closest you’ll get is attacking in the same direction as a group. People who choose their own targets make the group weaker since they’re soaking up healing so another mouth to feed, and not contributing to killing the group’s targets.

If 12 people are hitting the same target it should be unhealable, 12 people hitting different targets is very easy to heal through. People not dying usually means the dps or DD are off in la la land doing their own thing.

A good example too is we give almost everyone a chance to play with us. This leads to lots of calls of being a Zerg or whatever, but it’s important for the longevity of a pvp guild. Then if people aren’t listening or doing their own thing we do a purge, are are always stronger right after a purge. Someone being there pressing buttons alone doesn’t make the group stronger, teamwork does.

NBrookus

Thogard is right in that someone who runs a pug group is probably not a good raid lead, and even if they are they have a group of randoms to work with. "Type X in zone for group" is most likely not going to be a high performing experience. But it's a place to start and everyone starts somewhere.

Crowns are dictatorial because they are in charge. Telling you what to do is what they do. DPS doesn't make sense directly in pvp, it not damage per second that counts, but spikes of damage burst. If your assigned role is to do damage, then that damage needs to be directed where and with proper timing. For example, if crown tells everyone to proxy that means burst damage is coming in 8 seconds. (Unless it's a fake out.). If you are a warden, you would cast your sub assault 5 seconds later and plan to dawnbreaker when the sub pops.

That said there's a difference between in charge and being a jerk. Getting told you did something wrong is how you learn; getting yelled or insulted for it is a good opportunity for you to take your character elsewhere.

Beardimus

DrFuzzyFish wrote: »

So I've been trying to give PVP a go, I'm not really a competitive player so I don't tend to try all that hard or get annoyed WHEN I die, but damn it doesn't really feel easily accessible especially solo, so I tried to group up which is a struggle itself but then they tend to be.. shall we say "dictatorial", like why are you moaning about my dps? I don't even know what means. It's surprisingly been kinda fun tho just seems a little psychotic lol, Is it always like this or is it because of the ongoing event? Or am I just meeting people having a bad day?

Also is cyrodiil always empty? Feels like I'm just riding around with nothing to do.

I've never once heard a PvPer ask about DPS, that's a PvE term. I have seen it nagged to death in Trials etc though which seem are way more fickle crowd.

In terms of how quiet it is, which campaign are you in? As that makes a huge difference. LFG is good and all but get into a PvP guild and talk with folks about tactics, coordinated pushes etc its a game changer.

What platform / region?

zyk

Competitive PVP groups will definitely expect damage dealers to use high damage builds and for all members to perform specific roles.

The best AvA guilds will theorycraft optimal builds together. Members are expected obtain the gear necessary and build according to the specifications provided.

I've been lucky to play with teammates who would tirelessly test builds on PTS before each major update and have playbooks ready for us. It's difficult to run a guild like this now though because interest in ESO PVP is probably at an all time low, but there used to be several.

Even a decent pug leader should have expectations about the capabilities of a group in terms of damage and healing, and it's totally fair for them to question why the group might not be meeting expectations. But ESO players are very very very very sensitive.

It should go without saying that one should follow the leader when part of a team.

Cadbury

Complaints about DPS in PvP.

INB4 "Toxic PvP"

PhoenixGrey

Make sure to max out your group size in pvp. Its 24 or something. IMO it's the best way to stay alive and optimal form of strategic PVP

DrFuzzyFish

So dps (just learnt what it means lol) is not even that important but dealing high damage is, what's considered a good amount and can I find out how much I'm doing or is it just trial by error?

24!? well damn, that sounds like fun, 23 other people to keep me alive lol.

It sounds like maybe my group leader might have been a new to pvp as well makes sense actually seeing as it was the under level 50 war but he/she was still a tool.

Thanks for the advice all, will keep practicing

Beardimus

DrFuzzyFish wrote: »

So dps (just learnt what it means lol) is not even that important but dealing high damage is, what's considered a good amount and can I find out how much I'm doing or is it just trial by error?

24!? well damn, that sounds like fun, 23 other people to keep me alive lol.

It sounds like maybe my group leader might have been a new to pvp as well makes sense actually seeing as it was the under level 50 war but he/she was still a tool.

Thanks for the advice all, will keep practicing

Ah that makes sense, and yep some folks say DPS and just mean damage. Generally folks talking DPS will add a number which is your actual DPS against a dumny - i e. Can You score 35k self buffed etc.

You are right good damage in PvP is needed. No real way to test bar using it, dueling helps. Or battlegrounds as fast combat. It's your ability to burst the enemy down and that makes sense.

My worry was your group where asking actual DPS and it was to burn a boss in Imp City or Molag Bal etc (PvE in PvP zone)

For most in PvP its about hard damage, and CC, so you can hit the enemy when Cced..or its running down their reourcesm

What's your class / build? We might be able to help!

NBrookus

DrFuzzyFish wrote: »

So dps (just learnt what it means lol) is not even that important but dealing high damage is, what's considered a good amount and can I find out how much I'm doing or is it just trial by error?

24!? well damn, that sounds like fun, 23 other people to keep me alive lol.

It sounds like maybe my group leader might have been a new to pvp as well makes sense actually seeing as it was the under level 50 war but he/she was still a tool.

Thanks for the advice all, will keep practicing

I think the 24 comment was sarcasm. The game favors larger groups over smaller by a lot, but getting a bigger group is not the best way to learn to play. Larger groups cover a multitude of weaknesses and personal mistakes. Solo versus small scale versus organized group also require different skill sets.

So the under 50 comment explains the impression Cyrodiil is empty; it's rarely high pop. But people there are not necessarily all noobs. some people level characters in pvp and others are experienced but use the lowbie campaign to feed their egos.

DrFuzzyFish

@Beardimus I'm a warden

Marcus684

If you’re going to specialize in damage output in a group (as opposed to healing, buffing, cleansing, etc.) you should be able to put out some decent damage, or else your group will have trouble surviving against other, better built, groups. In the past, I've been in plenty of pugs that just couldn’t survive large battles because they couldn’t kill anyone except random soloers. It takes time and experience to figure out how to put together a damage build that helps your group win battles, and since pug herders tend to take anyone, there’s going to be difficulty winning anything unless you have superior numbers. Good pug leaders will be patient with newbie players with subpar builds, but should also encourage their members to improve their builds and gameplay.

I used to run pugs a long time ago, and just couldn’t keep at it. Too many rugged individualists that wanted to “play how they want” and run off to get killed by some bolting sorc or LOS hero, then complain in chat how we didn’t “back him up” instead of sticking to our objective, or constantly second-guessing my decisions and insulting us if things didn’t go well all the time.

As far as population, you have to pick your server carefully. The 30-day locked campaign always has lots of action, but you can still find good action on the other vet servers during prime time. The lowbie campaign is by far the worst, since for the most part the only experienced players that continue to play there are seal-clubbing re-rollers that purely run solo or with other toddler-punchers, and never group with randoms in zone.