The actual problems with DOTS and how to fix them

Solariken

While I don't have a ton of extra time to go into great detail, here are the actual problems with DOTS currently (PvP-centric):

1. DOT damage is completely fine. Nerfing tooltips would be barking up the wrong tree. The primary issue with Entropy and Soul Trap is that they deal very respectable instant strike damage. Just put a 1 second delay from application to first damage tick. This will make people calm down about DOTS, I'm sure of it (especially Soul Trap which is undodgeable).

2. Magblades. Spammable invisibility and easy in-combat stealthing have been sandbagging PvP in this game for far too long. Would you REALLY rather nerf universal tools that everyone can use instead of the elephant in the room? People hate the DOT meta in Cyro because of all these 40-meter untouchable magblades (and snipeblades) that just pepper you with impunity from the bushes. Cloak and stealth need some fundamental changes.

Rianai

Can't decide if the first or the second paragraph makes less sense ...

Major_Lag

Just for fun, while levelling my magNB, I tried putting Soul Trap and Degen (from stealth) on a good PvPer who was busy fighting one of my allies in IC.

It was a PvE build and the offensive stats were far from spectacular (being on a ~lvl 30 character), but it was hitting good enough for some serious stack-and-burn grinding.

As expected, this accomplished... absolutely nothing, outside of mildly annoying the enemy player.
After about 2 minutes of DoTting him up, while he was still busy 1v1'ing my ally, I concluded that the fight is obviously hopeless and moved on.

Just for fun, later I tried the same approach on an assortment of random PvPers in Cyrodiil... same deal, it had about as much effect as throwing pies at them.

And on the flip side, I also got some DoTs on me while I was in Cyro grinding for geodes last week. It did... pretty much nothing really, a tiny amount of DPS that I could easily outheal.

Now, if you had 10-20 enemy players on you and they all spam their DoTs, that's a different story altogether.

Solariken

Major_Lag wrote: »

Just for fun, while levelling my magNB, I tried putting Soul Trap and Degen (from stealth) on a good PvPer who was busy fighting one of my allies in IC.

It was a PvE build and the offensive stats were far from spectacular (being on a ~lvl 30 character), but it was hitting good enough for some serious stack-and-burn grinding.

As expected, this accomplished... absolutely nothing, outside of mildly annoying the enemy player.
After about 2 minutes of DoTting him up, while he was still busy 1v1'ing my ally, I concluded that the fight is obviously hopeless and moved on.

Just for fun, later I tried the same approach on an assortment of random PvPers in Cyrodiil... same deal, it had about as much effect as throwing pies at them.

And on the flip side, I also got some DoTs on me while I was in Cyro grinding for geodes last week. It did... pretty much nothing really, a tiny amount of DPS that I could easily outheal.

Now, if you had 10-20 enemy players on you and they all spam their DoTs, that's a different story altogether.

You're doing it wrong or didn't have a proper build. I've been cleaning up with my magblade - it's stupidly easy to DOT up with Debil/Entropy/Trap and then just pepper with Swallow Soul. If they get close you just fear -> Soul Harvest and it's goodnight. Honestly I have no idea why this isn't working for you - it's one of the most effective and braindead playstyles available right now...

Solariken

Rianai wrote: »

Can't decide if the first or the second paragraph makes less sense ...

@Rianai so from your well-reasoned rebuttal above, should we assume you are part of the DOT nerfsquad? I'm trying to advocate for not nerfing DOTs because of nightblade shenanigans.

Major_Lag

Solariken wrote: »

You're doing it wrong or didn't have a proper build.

No, I did not have a proper build. It was a PvE stack-and-burn grinding build, also with somewhat outlevelled gear (by about 10 levels).

On a proper build, I'd imagine the DoT tooltips would be 3-4x larger. But nothing multiplied by 4x is still nothing.

Taken to an extreme, spamming as many DoTs as possible on a build stacked for DoTs and nothing else, you can kill potatoes.
But then again, you can do that just fine with any other minmaxed build, so nothing new there.

Actually the reason I rolled a magNB was specifically to give that kind of gameplay a try, but my character isn't even close to being ready for real PvP yet.

leepalmer95

Major_Lag wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

You're doing it wrong or didn't have a proper build.

No, I did not have a proper build. It was a PvE stack-and-burn grinding build, also with somewhat outlevelled gear (by about 10 levels).

On a proper build, I'd imagine the DoT tooltips would be 3-4x larger. But nothing multiplied by 4x is still nothing.

Taken to an extreme, spamming as many DoTs as possible on a build stacked for DoTs and nothing else, you can kill potatoes.
But then again, you can do that just fine with any other minmaxed build, so nothing new there.

Actually the reason I rolled a magNB was specifically to give that kind of gameplay a try, but my character isn't even close to being ready for real PvP yet.

Thats not how it works at all, you cant say they deal nothing when tested on a crappy build.

On my templar I can use the purge, degen and vam[ bane and absoluterly melts people.

chrightt

DoT getting buffed was a nice change, but I’m pretty sure most people agree that the numbers are a tad bit too high in general (not just soul trap and entropy, dots in general). What would make things more interesting would be something like changing destructive touch’s base dmg to deal a bit more (which buffs clench as well since it sucks atm) while reducing dot duration of reach to maybe 5s while tuning down a bit of the other DoT damage. That way we don’t always get 10s dots for every single skill while introducing a bit of variety. As for NB their cloak was already quite OP but that is their main selling point. Tbh I think cloak fatigue like streak fatigue would make a lot of sense.

leepalmer95

chrightt wrote: »

DoT getting buffed was a nice change, but I’m pretty sure most people agree that the numbers are a tad bit too high in general (not just soul trap and entropy, dots in general). What would make things more interesting would be something like changing destructive touch’s base dmg to deal a bit more (which buffs clench as well since it sucks atm) while reducing dot duration of reach to maybe 5s while tuning down a bit of the other DoT damage. That way we don’t always get 10s dots for every single skill while introducing a bit of variety. As for NB their cloak was already quite OP but that is their main selling point. Tbh I think cloak fatigue like streak fatigue would make a lot of sense.

Cloak is borderline useless now.

Major_Lag

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Thats not how it works at all, you cant say they deal nothing when tested on a crappy build.

Right. But in the same post I also said that I did get hit with some incidental DoTs in Cyro (in largescale fights), and the damage from that was pitifully low.

Based on the lack of general uproar about DoTs, and my own (admittedly limited) experience in the matter, it looks to me like the DoTs are in a similar spot now as Sorc Overload was pre-Scalebreaker.
Which is to say - completely useless, unless you build specifically for it.

Xvorg

leepalmer95 wrote: »

chrightt wrote: »

DoT getting buffed was a nice change, but I’m pretty sure most people agree that the numbers are a tad bit too high in general (not just soul trap and entropy, dots in general). What would make things more interesting would be something like changing destructive touch’s base dmg to deal a bit more (which buffs clench as well since it sucks atm) while reducing dot duration of reach to maybe 5s while tuning down a bit of the other DoT damage. That way we don’t always get 10s dots for every single skill while introducing a bit of variety. As for NB their cloak was already quite OP but that is their main selling point. Tbh I think cloak fatigue like streak fatigue would make a lot of sense.

Cloak is borderline useless now.

True... Dark cloak on the other hand, paired with entropy and swallow gives you a lot HoT. Not to mention Minor Protection

Xvorg

Major_Lag wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Thats not how it works at all, you cant say they deal nothing when tested on a crappy build.

Right. But in the same post I also said that I did get hit with some incidental DoTs in Cyro (in largescale fights), and the damage from that was pitifully low.

Based on the lack of general uproar about DoTs, and my own (admittedly limited) experience in the matter, it looks to me like the DoTs are in a similar spot now as Sorc Overload was pre-Scalebreaker.
Which is to say - completely useless, unless you build specifically for it.

Not really. NBs have acces to Debilitate (wich in turn gives you magicka back each 1 sec if you timed your dots) and its dmg is comparable to Soul trap and Entropy.

On the other hand both, degen and structured entropy have some nice effects and big dmg.

So any smart NB (or any smart player), should build towards penetration and crit chance. That will make not only your DoTs strong, but also your direct dmg skills. NBs and Temps have the upper hand with that, then maybe Sorcs and Necroes. DKs won't benefit much (despite being the attrition class, since thy are naturally build toward mitigation), and Wardens have to rely on burst more than ever.

Problem is that people still tries to play this like in previous patches, or they are so amused for the change to Dizz swing they are trying it without considering that good players will always find a way to kick to dodge roll dizz.

Finally, I haven't seen any decent archer build this patch, despite they have all the kit to do extra dmg from range. Just relying on snipe or drainning is not enough.

buttaface

Purge needs to be XX% cheaper and have both magicka and stamina morphs. In PvP, there should be a cap on number of instances of DOTs on any single player.

When these relatively minor changes in response to all the DOT whining are not done, and they likely won't be, and instead some ridiculous further shakeup of skills emerges from ZOS, my enthusiasm to play this game is going to drop even lower than the basement it's in now.

When I first played ESO back in 2017, one shots were prevalent via proc sets and skills with different timers that could be cast to hit near simultaneously. The nerf crying then was reasonable because there was little counterplay possible. One second you are alive, the very next second you are dead. That's not fun.

The DOT crying now is not reasonable, and the way you know it's not is people asking for nerfs instead of buffed counterplay options. They will cry to nerf whatever kills them next too, watch. Some things never change with these games.

And trying to weave in some "nerf cloak" whining is pretty slimy IMO.

Casul

I recently changed my stamden into a magden healbot. Here is my observation on the meta/controversy based on BG.

1) DoT are not countered very well by purge due to so many other effects eating the purge. It is not cost effective for normal builds (I am built to sustain cleanse, so I can handle them decently well, but I also have significantly more self healing and defense compared to a damage build) to purge at the level needed.

2) Templars are very strong, but not OP: I feel like they just got swung by the pendulum more then other classes, and if the DoT balanced of U24 come through then they will get drawn back in. With that in mind I am curious what will become of the burning light passive. Sorcerers lost implosion which had similar mechanics. So I would not be surprised if the free damage from burning lights gets altered to something else.

Xvorg

has anyone tried to combine Stendarr's, Wyrd tree and Curse eater (in any set up)?

Solariken

buttaface wrote: »

Purge needs to be XX% cheaper and have both magicka and stamina morphs. In PvP, there should be a cap on number of instances of DOTs on any single player.

When these relatively minor changes in response to all the DOT whining are not done, and they likely won't be, and instead some ridiculous further shakeup of skills emerges from ZOS, my enthusiasm to play this game is going to drop even lower than the basement it's in now.

When I first played ESO back in 2017, one shots were prevalent via proc sets and skills with different timers that could be cast to hit near simultaneously. The nerf crying then was reasonable because there was little counterplay possible. One second you are alive, the very next second you are dead. That's not fun.

The DOT crying now is not reasonable, and the way you know it's not is people asking for nerfs instead of buffed counterplay options. They will cry to nerf whatever kills them next too, watch. Some things never change with these games.

And trying to weave in some "nerf cloak" whining is pretty slimy IMO.

Shots fired...

I'm not whining about cloak, I just don't want to see legitimate DOT skills nerfed because of a gimmick skill. Cloak can be reworked into something equally strong that doesn't have such polarizing outcomes. Spammable invisibility is pretty bad game design anyway.

Also I vote no to universal purge option, that would basically kill DOT builds as a whole.

Solariken

Xvorg wrote: »

has anyone tried to combine Stendarr's, Wyrd tree and Curse eater (in any set up)?

No but could be some pretty hilarious streak spamming XD

FearlessOne_2014

buttaface wrote: »

Purge needs to be XX% cheaper and have both magicka and stamina morphs. In PvP, there should be a cap on number of instances of DOTs on any single player.

~snip~

- I'd be ok with giving stamina purge only if Magicka gets dodge roll and break free.. Sounds fair right?

BahometZ

Cloak is an awesome skill, leave it alone. And no, I don't nightblade. They've already made fear non-unique, they remove stealth, and what even is a nightblade? Just an emo mage.

Baphomet

How to fix DoTs?

Give all a magicka version of vigor and/or half the cost of purge in the PvP skill line.

Qbiken

DoTs and bleeds should be reverted to Elsweyr standards.

brandonv516

Ah I knew it wouldn't take long in the DoT meta for someone to complain about Cloak.

As always I'm just here for my obligatory "CLOAK IS FINE" response.

I've responded to "nerf Cloak" topics so many times I don't have it in me to argue my position anymore. But you have a good day.

Derra

Given how little counterplay there is apart from just outhealing the dmg once applied i disagree with the statement of dot tooltips not being too high (over their current duration).

Heimpai

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

Purge needs to be XX% cheaper and have both magicka and stamina morphs. In PvP, there should be a cap on number of instances of DOTs on any single player.

~snip~

- I'd be ok with giving stamina purge only if Magicka gets dodge roll and break free.. Sounds fair right?

Sure aslong as stamina also gets to be at 50-60k like mag

Or you could put some of that into stam? I know it sucks being forced to invest into something you don’t want to

Break free i could agree with tho

buttaface

Solariken wrote: »

I'm not whining about cloak... gimmick skill.

(emphasis added)

Yeah you are.

Skoomah

Let’s consider some context and history.

The game morphs and changes for the sake of change. Sometimes fairly. Sometimes unfairly.

1. People complained about one type of dot, being bleeds. The damage itself if stacked, would require a player to go full melee and apply it right in your face. Just remember the player has to walk up to you and the counter is to kite, control them through crowd control, blow them up from range before they get to you, etc.

2. ZOS listens to player feedback and lowers bleed damage in one patch. The complaints still came in.

3. ZOS listens and gives everyone access to high dot damage. Bleeds mechanic which is initially designed as a tank killer is completely reworked to function just like another dot. All dots in the game now can tick for 3,000-5,000 damage per second. The dot damage for each skill is increased and now the ranged magicka dots do just as much damage as a melee stamina applied dot... and they all function the same, only difference is application from range or melee

4. Everyone gets access to the dots and they all function the same, but that’s still not enough. People are still complaining, even though the counter is to wear more resistances and slot a cleanse or run with a healer.

5. ZOS will capitulate and lower dot damage next patch. Healing hots will stay the same. Just remember, they were increased this patch.

So what is the net result?

Everyone in PvP is wearing more heavy armor and are building more tanky than ever before just to survive long enough to be able to click on the purge button and enough time to get in a few counter punches. Also, the one go to tank killer was how bleeds used to work, but now it’s just another dot.

These players will be even more tanky with higher healing tool tips, without the old bleed mechanic to worry about.

So you see what happens when people refuse to learn the counters to initial game design? Sometimes the complaints on the forums are valid. Sometimes they are not. It’s up to ZOS to make that judgement.

In the meantime... can we please get some consistency in terms how our characters function patch to patch?

Vapirko

I think the problem with Entropy is that it’s just too overloaded. The damage doesn’t need to disappear but it does need to be toned way down. Soul trap I’m a bit torn on, but I think splitting should be brought way down in range and should be more of a melee dot and let consuming ST or whatever it is stay ranged.

idk

Rianai wrote: »

Can't decide if the first or the second paragraph makes less sense ...

I found neither makes any sense. The first is looking at things in an overly simplistic manner. The second shows a lack of understanding of how to deal with a cloaking player. It is quite fun once you get a hang of it but it is a skill thing.

Solariken

idk wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Can't decide if the first or the second paragraph makes less sense ...

I found neither makes any sense. The first is looking at things in an overly simplistic manner. The second shows a lack of understanding of how to deal with a cloaking player. It is quite fun once you get a hang of it but it is a skill thing.

I never said I have issues dealing with Cloak (as long as I can get in range lol).

You guys aren't listening - the only class that these DOTs are exceptionally strong on is magblade. I don't want to see these DOTs nerfed because of it.

@idk there is nothing overly simplistic about the fact that both skills deal strike damage and they should have a 1 second delay. Like really?

Kadoin

Xvorg wrote: »

has anyone tried to combine Stendarr's, Wyrd tree and Curse eater (in any set up)?

Last I checked, Stendarr is a very powerful set in a build with a group and healing proc sets, esp. bogdan and trinimac/coldharbour (though I'd say trinimac is better). On the right DK, templar, or warden build its good at keeping a zerg from getting wiped or your BG team from dying as often, but keep all of that quiet.

idk

Solariken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Can't decide if the first or the second paragraph makes less sense ...

I found neither makes any sense. The first is looking at things in an overly simplistic manner. The second shows a lack of understanding of how to deal with a cloaking player. It is quite fun once you get a hang of it but it is a skill thing.

I never said I have issues dealing with Cloak (as long as I can get in range lol).

You guys aren't listening - the only class that these DOTs are exceptionally strong on is magblade. I don't want to see these DOTs nerfed because of it.

@idk there is nothing overly simplistic about the fact that both skills deal strike damage and they should have a 1 second delay. Like really?

Smashing example that simply removing one tick of the DoT is not a simplistic solution.

BTW, you can argue with me all you care to but it is rather pointless becasue it is Zos you need to convince.