Dizzying Swing is too strong in PvP.

ku5h

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Derra

Vapirko wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

My expectation of this topic: A lot of people who recently picked up using dizzying swing assuring everyone that the skill is perfectly fine in every way imaginable.

Do you use dizzy swing?

Yes - and i have before the buff aswell (not much though as i don´t like playing stam).

The ability is in the same boat as permanent killable summons. It´s design is basically an antithesis to the combat system of eso.
There is no way to bring the ability into a balanced state while keeping it´s design as a delayed melee channel.
It´s gonna be bad until one buff eventually tips the scales and the sheer numerical advantage of dmg/utility outweights it being unconfortable/hard to utilize.

Dizzy is not hard to utilize anymore with scalebreaker changes - which was probably the most massive buff it could receive.

chris211

dizzy is fine

Mojomonkeyman

They turned dizzy into the perfect Xv1 skill, one button spam heroes everywhere. Way overtuned, especially in combination with the reintroduced knockback cc bugs.

Since the change to offensive s&b (or its elimination) there is NO justification left to let dizzy keep its overblown tooltips (damage component outperforming all other spammables + knockback stun) because:
1) it doesn't have to compete with the former potent block casted and/or bash canceled offense via s&b anymore
2) the shortened casttime enables just as much hits over any period of time as instant spammables and can be light attack woven (unlike jabs i.e.)

Currently the biggest offender to balanced gameplay, and clearly outperforming alternatives. I hope ZOS considers the current state a transitional period with further adjustments (nerfs) coming.

Vapirko

Derra wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

My expectation of this topic: A lot of people who recently picked up using dizzying swing assuring everyone that the skill is perfectly fine in every way imaginable.

Do you use dizzy swing?

Yes - and i have before the buff aswell (not much though as i don´t like playing stam).

The ability is in the same boat as permanent killable summons. It´s design is basically an antithesis to the combat system of eso.
There is no way to bring the ability into a balanced state while keeping it´s design as a delayed melee channel.
It´s gonna be bad until one buff eventually tips the scales and the sheer numerical advantage of dmg/utility outweights it being unconfortable/hard to utilize.

Dizzy is not hard to utilize anymore with scalebreaker changes - which was probably the most massive buff it could receive.

I agree with that assessment but I think that in its current state it’s as close to balanced as it will ever get. And being on both sides of the fence with it as I’m sure you have been, it’s a very strong skill but also requires enough pause and positioning to fire it off for the payoff to be equal to the challenge. With good ping it’s not hard to utilize but it’s also not hard to get up a block, dodge roll, cloak out or simply streak through it. It’s also very ineffective against tanky builds or block builds.

Derra

Vapirko wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

My expectation of this topic: A lot of people who recently picked up using dizzying swing assuring everyone that the skill is perfectly fine in every way imaginable.

Do you use dizzy swing?

Yes - and i have before the buff aswell (not much though as i don´t like playing stam).

The ability is in the same boat as permanent killable summons. It´s design is basically an antithesis to the combat system of eso.
There is no way to bring the ability into a balanced state while keeping it´s design as a delayed melee channel.
It´s gonna be bad until one buff eventually tips the scales and the sheer numerical advantage of dmg/utility outweights it being unconfortable/hard to utilize.

Dizzy is not hard to utilize anymore with scalebreaker changes - which was probably the most massive buff it could receive.

I agree with that assessment but I think that in its current state it’s as close to balanced as it will ever get. And being on both sides of the fence with it as I’m sure you have been, it’s a very strong skill but also requires enough pause and positioning to fire it off for the payoff to be equal to the challenge. With good ping it’s not hard to utilize but it’s also not hard to get up a block, dodge roll, cloak out or simply streak through it. It’s also very ineffective against tanky builds or block builds.

I´d agree to dodge and block being easy to use counters if dizzy didn´t suffer from the same cc bugs as reach/javelin - or really any knockback/knockdown skills.

It´s cc landing is somehow disconnected from the animation and tapping block even though the ability hasn´t hit yet it will cc you through the active block on your client - because it was already registed serverside (was probably the most pronounced with shock reach last patch due to the insane traveltime + ability arc and still easily observable on cast frags from mageguards)

Then someone can also line up dizzying on a person dodging and hit them between dodges or before block registers after the dodgeroll ends (due to above mentioned bug).

As a result neither block nor dodge are a reliable defense against dizzy (unless permablock or combined with abilities like cloak).

I know these are bugs and ideally we shouldn´t argue around an ability in a bugged state being too good partly bc of said bugs (i can´t tell how much of it is related to its wonky cc) - but given how long they´ve been in this state by now i don´t know if we can ever expect the bugs to get fixed (it´s been since clockwork city 2 years ago atleast).

Disagree somewhat on dizzy being bad against tanky builds - for me breaking tanky builds is easiest on a dizzy build compared to magsorc, magcro and magDK (though this is definetly partly attributeable to onslaught aswell).

Heimpai

master_vanargand wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Everyone is using it.

One thought: if every skill that uses everybody is nerfed.... what all we use then?

I want more diversity than skill that are too strong.

Sooo nerf DoT‘s

Berenhir

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

My expectation of this topic: A lot of people who recently picked up using dizzying swing assuring everyone that the skill is perfectly fine in every way imaginable.

Look! A magsorc complaining.

(I dont even use 2h before you even go there noob)

GeorgeBlack calling Derra a noob. Now I've seen it all.

evoniee

i agree with dizzy such a bullshlt strong.

BUT
with how more bullshlt magicka char power is, dizzy is bearable

edit:
naaaaaaah, apparently i died more cause of 1vx dswing spammer than a 1vx magicka dots

Ragnaroek93

Non mobile builds get eliminated by several Dizzy spammers and mobile builds get eliminated by several dot spammers. Nice meta.

Chilly-McFreeze

Give every class a good stamina spam, then you can you can nerf dizzy.

CynicK

It does a little more damage proportionaly that other spamables(it has a 0.8 cast time i think) and you fail 1 out of 2 at least, I tryed aiming at the player all the time and even then if the player moves around two far from where the DZ started it fails, the problem is some classes do not have an stamina spamable and are forced to use DZ, they already tried this patch to nerf DZ, the crowd control allows to conect a second one what helps, some other spamable morphs have also cc I mean 2h is different that other skill lines and dz is the skill that has cc, if the empower form wrecking blow still worked in your next attack even if it was 10%-15% no one will be using dizzying swing.

With surprise attack, same build, you would have recieved more damage overall because he would have conected all the attacks i think your problem is the other player hitted hard alltoghether and we get a nerf thread.

I am not the greatest player but if DZ is your nemesis I would say learn to play...

Sorry for the style but I do not like nerf threads, devs seem to pay attention to them and everything gets nerfed.

Alucardo

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Everyone is using it.

One thought: if every skill that uses everybody is nerfed.... what all we use then?

I mean, I'm totally down if everybody was forced to just fist fight

x48rph

master_vanargand wrote: »

Dizzying Swing is spammable big damage stun skill.
This became OP because the cast time was shortened.
Dizzying Swing is too strong in PvP.
So this should be nerf.

*big sigh* Yet another nerf thread. How original. Besides the normal STOP ASKING FOR NERFS response this thead makes me want to give, could you at least back up your call for a nerf with actual data. I mean if your going to write a thread calling for a nerf, at least present some hard data comparing it to other similar abilities. Maybe something to show how despite having a cast time and being telegraphed, it's still somehow over performing. All these "It's just OP" nerf threads just sound like l2p issues with nothing to back them up.

iCaliban

Dizzy is fine. Onslaught is not. It both does too much damage and the aoe component is heavily overtuned. Currently dizzy into onlsaught is a 2 hit combo on nearly all light and medium armor builds. Many players are dead before they can even break free.

red_emu

It's a weird skill. When I try to use it, the enemy just moves out of the way.

When I get hit with it, I usually manage to interrupt it or roll away. Then 5 seconds later... I'm dead. Left the enemy way behind but still have 4 DS on my death recap? What's up with that?

Crixus8000

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Everyone is using it.

One thought: if every skill that uses everybody is nerfed.... what all we use then?

Nothing tbh. There are no other spammable options anymore.

And dizzy is fine, good players still avoid it just like before, it's just harder now.

It still has plently of counterplay though.

MentalxHammer

Dying to dizzy swing is a l2p issue.

Gaggin

I would rather they lower the damage a bit but fix its awful targeting to make it a more consistant ability.

MartiniDaniels

Gaggin wrote: »

I would rather they lower the damage a bit but fix its awful targeting to make it a more consistant ability.

They already "fixed" it, you can only get of it's radius, it is now auto-aimed you may face another side and it will still land. Just try it, begin hit and turn 180 degrees with reticle looking in opposite direction. Dizzy will still hit. I checked same with snipe, lol. ZOS rocks...

hasi

Asking to nerf Dizzying Swing?

Well, I don't want to hear your opinion on the old Wrecking Blow then.



No, honestly. Dizzy is fine the way it is.

CompM4s

At this point on the forums, just nerf everything.

Lokey0024

You guys would have loved old skool Wrecking Blow. 20% added damage on connect for next ability and the CC. DK dunk was 2 hit kill on most classes

RiskyChalice863

I think the problem with Dizzying Swing right now is less that it’s OP than that it seems to create netcode issues that can desync and make multiple Dizzying Swings hit you all at once. It’s the same with Snipe. I don’t really think either ability is OP, but they both are very frequently abilities in the death recap in times where there’s a clear desync and I died instantly from full health. Poison Injection seems to be another culprit. That can make these abilities feel like BS, but the actual issue is the netcode, not the abilities themselves.

Sarousse

I'm spamming dizzy in PvP because except for nightblades and templar, there are no good class spammable.

Spamming skulls for a necro, or birds for a stamden, or... nothing for a stamsorc is pointless in PvP.

Heimpai

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

I think the problem with Dizzying Swing right now is less that it’s OP than that it seems to create netcode issues that can desync and make multiple Dizzying Swings hit you all at once. It’s the same with Snipe. I don’t really think either ability is OP, but they both are very frequently abilities in the death recap in times where there’s a clear desync and I died instantly from full health. Poison Injection seems to be another culprit. That can make these abilities feel like BS, but the actual issue is the netcode, not the abilities themselves.

Finally..I’ve been saying that for a while and people just brush it off..I use dswing on my warden so i know lmao, swapped classes tho..i can’t stand desync‘s

Vermethys

Sarousse wrote: »

I'm spamming dizzy in PvP because except for nightblades and templar, there are no good class spammable.

Spamming skulls for a necro, or birds for a stamden, or... nothing for a stamsorc is pointless in PvP.

Have you tried using Silver Shards or Power Slam? They're both very good spammables. On my StamSorc (with average WD) Silver Shards has a 9k tooltip, AoE portion, and 22m range, and Power Slam has a 10k tooltip before any stacks.

Sarousse

Vermethys wrote: »

Sarousse wrote: »

I'm spamming dizzy in PvP because except for nightblades and templar, there are no good class spammable.

Spamming skulls for a necro, or birds for a stamden, or... nothing for a stamsorc is pointless in PvP.

Have you tried using Silver Shards or Power Slam? They're both very good spammables. On my StamSorc (with average WD) Silver Shards has a 9k tooltip, AoE portion, and 22m range, and Power Slam has a 10k tooltip before any stacks.

I'll give it a try but those are not class abilities. We need real class identity spamables.

Baphomet

Make it interruptible and it will be balanced.

If you can briefly disrupt the flow of the spammage, you can mess with the burst combos.

MartiniDaniels

I think it is also about synergy between stamsorc and 2H. Basically +15% to opening damage of dizzy is sick.. You can clearly see difference in incoming dizzies from DK, Stamplar, Warden and stamsorc. Other classes can't make it so easily to execute range as sorc does with basically PI+critrush+dizzy+onslaught+(dizzy)+executioner. If you won't dodge or block and you are not cc-immune you are doomed if you will receive stunlock from first dizzy.
It will be a pity if now good looking 2H skill line will be nerfed because of how powerful it is in sorc's hands..