Dual Wield[Flurry and morphs] - Do you think the skill should get a rework/buff?

amir412

Re-posting this, as the "Combat & Character Mechanics" section is a dead zone.

This is a discussion related to the skill of dual wield skill tree, Flurry.

https://eso-skillbook.com/skill/flurry





My opinion:
* This skill has a really low tool tip, and feels like its not doing enough dmg in PVP
* The morphs of this skill, offers close to nothing:
- The skill hits so low, that the heal gained from it, is low aswell.
- The incrassed dmg is only 3% per hit, total 8% dmg increase, but the base dmg is low, so nothing to gain from that
* PVP wise - The skill channel time is high, making u exposed to dmg while going offensive.
* This is the only reasonable skill (for me at least) as spammable for classes who wants to use DW as front bar which has no spammable (see stam sorc, stam dk, etc)
* The skill is single target, therefore imo it should have a higher tool tip and deal more dmg than lets say (jabs o.o which has more dmg, and is AOE)
* It is an easy to dodge skill, as you cant run to catch your oponent, and while channeling, you lose speed, so you cant really lock down ur opoonent


I come mainly from PVP prespecitve, feel free to shed some light.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

mague

It is my opinion that Bloodthirst and Blood craze belong together. DW is in a very good shape atm. and i dont want a trade-off tbh.

Battle Spirit is the "problem". It should exclude damage based healing like on Bloodthirst or Templer skills. Because with 50% damage and 50% less healing those skills are double nerfed.

SpiderCultist

Tested it in the past (like 6 or 7 patches ago) and I felt the same, this skill was lackluster

I remember I even golded 2 maelstrom arena weapons, axes to be accurate, that I've also tested recently (this patch) and while they might work well on a PVE scenario, on PVP and even when using these two same weapons I was having the same feeling: not worth using. Why? It's canalized, not enough dmg, short range, not enough healing, etc. You basically expose yourself to get instakilled on PVP.

chrightt

mague wrote: »

It is my opinion that Bloodthirst and Blood craze belong together. DW is in a very good shape atm. and i dont want a trade-off tbh.

Battle Spirit is the "problem". It should exclude damage based healing like on Bloodthirst or Templer skills. Because with 50% damage and 50% less healing those skills are double nerfed.

Iirc If flurry tooltip is 10k outside Cyrodiil and healing is 5k => dmg is halved in Cyrodiil to 5k healing remains at 2.5k instead of 1.25k. They don’t double dip into reduction.

iRaivyne

I use rapid strikes as my spammable instead of surprise attack on my StamBlade because it hits pretty hard. I have no problem getting kills using it in BGs.

That said, when I used Bloodthirsty, the heal may as well have not have even been there. Pretty common theme for abilities based on damage done in PvP. If you're lucky you do 40% of tooltip damage, then the healing is cut to half of the already reduced number. Works out to a 500 hp heal per cast in noCP. My MagPlar's spammable heals for 1150 against 1 target and about 450 per additional target hit each cast in noCP.

raasdal

I think “feel” is the key word here. If you crunch the numbers, i think it will be on par with other weapon skill spammables, such as force shock. Not sure though. But to have any real discussion, someone needs to show some actual damage numbers to compare with.

iRaivyne

raasdal wrote: »

I think “feel” is the key word here. If you crunch the numbers, i think it will be on par with other weapon skill spammables, such as force shock. Not sure though. But to have any real discussion, someone needs to show some actual damage numbers to compare with.

For my StamBlade, noCP, no damage modifiers, with 25,502 max stamina and 4309 weapon damage, my tooltips are:

7,309 Surprise Attack
10,299 Dizzying Swing (10299/0.8 = 12,873.75 DPS)
9,771 Rapid Strikes (9771/0.6 = 16,285 DPS)

Waffennacht

I'd like to see a clip of PvP with it showing solid numbers from rapid.

No matter what, I've seen and felt it being extremely lackluster.

The only time I've even had it successfully used against me is when I was distracted by another player

Derra

iRaivyne wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

I think “feel” is the key word here. If you crunch the numbers, i think it will be on par with other weapon skill spammables, such as force shock. Not sure though. But to have any real discussion, someone needs to show some actual damage numbers to compare with.

For my StamBlade, noCP, no damage modifiers, with 25,502 max stamina and 4309 weapon damage, my tooltips are:

7,309 Surprise Attack
10,299 Dizzying Swing (10299/0.8 = 12,873.75 DPS)
9,771 Rapid Strikes (9771/0.6 = 16,285 DPS)

You can´t bypass the GCD with rapid strikes - 0.6s channel time does not mean you can use the skill every 0.6s. Apart from that it still doesn´t function properly in that regard (the animation takes longer than 0.6s and so does the dmg to land).

Then you can´t only compare pure numerical tooltip value in pvp. Functionality is key.
Compare force pulse to elemental weapon. They´re playing in the same league TT wise - but elemental weapon is vastly superior for most pvp uses.
One ability applies it´s dmg in 3 small hits the other does in 1. Figuring in crit the dmg of pulse is more consistent while ele weapon is bursty.
Same is true for rapid strikes vs other spammables - and it simply pales in comparison to wb.

amir412

Just gonna share this dude's experience with flurry from my other thread, as he plays DW front bar for a long time.

@Shokasegambit1

As I mained in PvP DW - Bow Stam Sorc for 3+ years the struggle is real. I have rallied for years to get this buffed or changed in a way that would be beneficial to the DW playstyle in PvP mainly.

Unfortunately your fighting a losing battle - PvE player's reign supreme as a community of getting things buffed and nerfed. Sadley ZOS now balances stuff based PVE test dummie parses and no diverse creative way of playing anymore.

The PvP community is neglected and poorly handled. Do i feel flurry needs to be changed ? Yes for many years now, mainly because players don't sit in one spot in PvP while you can spam flurry.( it's not jabs) * common sence shocker !

The only thing I'd change is put a hard snare on it for the first hit on just 1 morph.

Tip : In PvP when using flurry channel it ahead of the enemy. Use quick cloak to speed up then channel, sadly when you channel you don't keep your movement speed.

Remember when your going through these comments, PvE players are salty becuase the highest DPS parses are on using flurry for VMA weapons.

You can't please everyone and there's always going to be strong opinions and forum politics.

Goodluck hope it's buffed before I get back in mid 2020. 👍

Canned_Apples

I've tried it multiple times on multiple characters, but have yet to find a single build where it works.

They need to buff the damage and reduce the animation by 0.2 seconds.

iRaivyne

Derra wrote: »

iRaivyne wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

I think “feel” is the key word here. If you crunch the numbers, i think it will be on par with other weapon skill spammables, such as force shock. Not sure though. But to have any real discussion, someone needs to show some actual damage numbers to compare with.

For my StamBlade, noCP, no damage modifiers, with 25,502 max stamina and 4309 weapon damage, my tooltips are:

7,309 Surprise Attack
10,299 Dizzying Swing (10299/0.8 = 12,873.75 DPS)
9,771 Rapid Strikes (9771/0.6 = 16,285 DPS)

You can´t bypass the GCD with rapid strikes - 0.6s channel time does not mean you can use the skill every 0.6s. Apart from that it still doesn´t function properly in that regard (the animation takes longer than 0.6s and so does the dmg to land).

Then you can´t only compare pure numerical tooltip value in pvp. Functionality is key.
Compare force pulse to elemental weapon. They´re playing in the same league TT wise - but elemental weapon is vastly superior for most pvp uses.
One ability applies it´s dmg in 3 small hits the other does in 1. Figuring in crit the dmg of pulse is more consistent while ele weapon is bursty.
Same is true for rapid strikes vs other spammables - and it simply pales in comparison to wb.

You can't bypass GCD with any of those skills, so it was a wash as far as I'm concerned. I was using that as simply an illustration to show over the same amount of time what theoretically does more damage from a strict numbers perspective between dizzy and rapid.

Of course there's value in the other pieces of a given skill, like the knock back from dizzy, but that's not really quantifiable... It's a choice based on what is more valuable to the player.

Flurry hits pretty hard and I personally had better results with it than surprise attack on my StamBlade. I haven't tried dizzy since it was shortened to .8 seconds, but I generally rely on fear for my CC. So, that's why I've chosen to use rapid strikes as a spammable.

I play mostly in BGs and haven't noticed any problems landing the channel. Once cast, the channel seems to follow the target as long as you don't interfere.

chrightt

Don’t think this needs a buff. Flurry deals quite a bit of damage already, if it’s buffed any further it’ll definitely screw up DPS in PVE and just make this too strong a melee spammable compared with everything else.

WeylandLabs

chrightt wrote: »

Don’t think this needs a buff. Flurry deals quite a bit of damage already, if it’s buffed any further it’ll definitely screw up DPS in PVE and just make this too strong a melee spammable compared with everything else.

Exactly why it needs a 1 sec hard snare, it' doesn't make it too overpowered in both PvE and PvP.

It just gives it functionality in PvP to be useful enough to apply the entire channel.

When you channel it you don't keep your movement speed. You become extremely slow like Soul Assault or any channel in the game.

Thus making it nearly impossible to hit a moving target at regular speed. Players really don't sit still in PvP to let you apply a rotation. 😂

master_vanargand

Flurry was only 1-3hit in Cyrodiil.
ZoS needs to buff the server.

chrightt

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

chrightt wrote: »

Don’t think this needs a buff. Flurry deals quite a bit of damage already, if it’s buffed any further it’ll definitely screw up DPS in PVE and just make this too strong a melee spammable compared with everything else.

Exactly why it needs a 1 sec hard snare, it' doesn't make it too overpowered in both PvE and PvP.

It just gives it functionality in PvP to be useful enough to apply the entire channel.

When you channel it you don't keep your movement speed. You become extremely slow like Soul Assault or any channel in the game.

Thus making it nearly impossible to hit a moving target at regular speed. Players really don't sit still in PvP to let you apply a rotation. 😂

You can animation cancel flurry. Rapid strike works perfectly because currently it is the highest damage spammable along with dizzying swing so the channel/cast time is fair. This means that the skill has a trade off, so using it only when the user deems it to be usable will it work to its fullest potential. Simply, it means that conditionally it is the highest DPS spammable. IT IS supposed to expose you while allowing you to potentially deal a LOT of spammable damage. Successfully pulling off 1-2 rapid strikes in your rotation along with other skills and most light/medium armor opponents are probably executable or dead.

WeylandLabs

chrightt wrote: »

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

chrightt wrote: »

Don’t think this needs a buff. Flurry deals quite a bit of damage already, if it’s buffed any further it’ll definitely screw up DPS in PVE and just make this too strong a melee spammable compared with everything else.

Exactly why it needs a 1 sec hard snare, it' doesn't make it too overpowered in both PvE and PvP.

It just gives it functionality in PvP to be useful enough to apply the entire channel.

When you channel it you don't keep your movement speed. You become extremely slow like Soul Assault or any channel in the game.

Thus making it nearly impossible to hit a moving target at regular speed. Players really don't sit still in PvP to let you apply a rotation. 😂

You can animation cancel flurry. Rapid strike works perfectly because currently it is the highest damage spammable along with dizzying swing so the channel/cast time is fair. This means that the skill has a trade off, so using it only when the user deems it to be usable will it work to its fullest potential. Simply, it means that conditionally it is the highest DPS spammable. IT IS supposed to expose you while allowing you to potentially deal a LOT of spammable damage. Successfully pulling off 1-2 rapid strikes in your rotation along with other skills and most light/medium armor opponents are probably executable or dead.

I been playing DW front bar in Cyrodiil for 3 years. You show me a validated clip in a 1vX scenario of you ani canceling flurry. And I'm sorry it's not the reliable in pvp for a high damage spammable.

2h builds have a stun behind there dizzy, also to set up combinations into onslaughts.

You might have a very small amount of PvP experiance. And it might look good on paper, but what you say lacks utility. You have never played DW main - I know this becuase after mastering the play style I still struggle at times. Sure your going to kill bad players but, I don't kill bad players I kill top tier.

There is no trade off for damage, becuase while the animation sound goes off doesn't mean you hit all 5 hits. Players to not simply let you pull of a rotation maybe the players you play against. I'm sorry what you said in false and is unvalidated by you being a PvE player not PvP.

But you can always show proof - to validate your claim. I'd be more than happy to watch and analyze that flurry 1vx video without 2h.

Xvorg

Derra wrote: »

iRaivyne wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

I think “feel” is the key word here. If you crunch the numbers, i think it will be on par with other weapon skill spammables, such as force shock. Not sure though. But to have any real discussion, someone needs to show some actual damage numbers to compare with.

For my StamBlade, noCP, no damage modifiers, with 25,502 max stamina and 4309 weapon damage, my tooltips are:

7,309 Surprise Attack
10,299 Dizzying Swing (10299/0.8 = 12,873.75 DPS)
9,771 Rapid Strikes (9771/0.6 = 16,285 DPS)

You can´t bypass the GCD with rapid strikes - 0.6s channel time does not mean you can use the skill every 0.6s. Apart from that it still doesn´t function properly in that regard (the animation takes longer than 0.6s and so does the dmg to land).

Then you can´t only compare pure numerical tooltip value in pvp. Functionality is key.
Compare force pulse to elemental weapon. They´re playing in the same league TT wise - but elemental weapon is vastly superior for most pvp uses.
One ability applies it´s dmg in 3 small hits the other does in 1. Figuring in crit the dmg of pulse is more consistent while ele weapon is bursty.
Same is true for rapid strikes vs other spammables - and it simply pales in comparison to wb.

Besides, elemental can be paired with force pulse in secuences EW>LA>FP>LA, since EW provides status and FP does extra dmg on enemies affected by statuses.

Rapids cannot be paired with any other burst dmg skill (I know rapids is a channel, but it's behaves more like dizz swing than blood craze)

Xvorg

chrightt wrote: »

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

chrightt wrote: »

Don’t think this needs a buff. Flurry deals quite a bit of damage already, if it’s buffed any further it’ll definitely screw up DPS in PVE and just make this too strong a melee spammable compared with everything else.

Exactly why it needs a 1 sec hard snare, it' doesn't make it too overpowered in both PvE and PvP.

It just gives it functionality in PvP to be useful enough to apply the entire channel.

When you channel it you don't keep your movement speed. You become extremely slow like Soul Assault or any channel in the game.

Thus making it nearly impossible to hit a moving target at regular speed. Players really don't sit still in PvP to let you apply a rotation. 😂

You can animation cancel flurry. Rapid strike works perfectly because currently it is the highest damage spammable along with dizzying swing so the channel/cast time is fair. This means that the skill has a trade off, so using it only when the user deems it to be usable will it work to its fullest potential. Simply, it means that conditionally it is the highest DPS spammable. IT IS supposed to expose you while allowing you to potentially deal a LOT of spammable damage. Successfully pulling off 1-2 rapid strikes in your rotation along with other skills and most light/medium armor opponents are probably executable or dead.

No, Flurry cannot be ani cancelled, and it is very far from being the highest dmg spammable. Power slam does much more dmg than flurry and scales it much better.

katorga

There was some build posted here, Concealed Mountain, or something like that with the dude using flurry to proc way of fire and red mountain on 2 second cooldown in nocp. Kinda cool.

Otherwise, its a pve skill, why wreck it just because it isn't perfect for pvp? 'Cause when Zos touches it, it will get wrecked. Thinking of Flying Blade.

FearlessOne_2014

Yall are asking for DW to be buffed?

Xvorg

katorga wrote: »

There was some build posted here, Concealed Mountain, or something like that with the dude using flurry to proc way of fire and red mountain on 2 second cooldown in nocp. Kinda cool.

Otherwise, its a pve skill, why wreck it just because it isn't perfect for pvp? 'Cause when Zos touches it, it will get wrecked. Thinking of Flying Blade.

It's a very old build, it used to be much better with the old version of red mountain. In any case, the combo of WoF and Viper sting seems to be quite effective too, but with Widowmaker is a much better option, considering that flurry escalates with Thaum in the same way that alchemy poisons, which in turn are proc by weapon attacks.

In fact, widowmaker + WoF + defensive monster seems a nice combo

Calboy

I'm loving the current version of flurry for pvp. The speed just works so well with the stam sorc theme

NuarBlack

Some better utility for pvp would be nice. The damage is fine. Either a snare to help it land or improve the healing morph some or have it grant minor mending or something.

Also the channeling shouldn't drop you back to normal movement speed. Infact they need to make a pass over all channel and cast time spells and remove any self snaring as they just don't fit with the pace of combat.

Juhasow

iRaivyne wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

iRaivyne wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

I think “feel” is the key word here. If you crunch the numbers, i think it will be on par with other weapon skill spammables, such as force shock. Not sure though. But to have any real discussion, someone needs to show some actual damage numbers to compare with.

For my StamBlade, noCP, no damage modifiers, with 25,502 max stamina and 4309 weapon damage, my tooltips are:

7,309 Surprise Attack
10,299 Dizzying Swing (10299/0.8 = 12,873.75 DPS)
9,771 Rapid Strikes (9771/0.6 = 16,285 DPS)

You can´t bypass the GCD with rapid strikes - 0.6s channel time does not mean you can use the skill every 0.6s. Apart from that it still doesn´t function properly in that regard (the animation takes longer than 0.6s and so does the dmg to land).

Then you can´t only compare pure numerical tooltip value in pvp. Functionality is key.
Compare force pulse to elemental weapon. They´re playing in the same league TT wise - but elemental weapon is vastly superior for most pvp uses.
One ability applies it´s dmg in 3 small hits the other does in 1. Figuring in crit the dmg of pulse is more consistent while ele weapon is bursty.
Same is true for rapid strikes vs other spammables - and it simply pales in comparison to wb.

You can't bypass GCD with any of those skills, so it was a wash as far as I'm concerned. I was using that as simply an illustration to show over the same amount of time what theoretically does more damage from a strict numbers perspective between dizzy and rapid.

Of course there's value in the other pieces of a given skill, like the knock back from dizzy, but that's not really quantifiable... It's a choice based on what is more valuable to the player.

Flurry hits pretty hard and I personally had better results with it than surprise attack on my StamBlade. I haven't tried dizzy since it was shortened to .8 seconds, but I generally rely on fear for my CC. So, that's why I've chosen to use rapid strikes as a spammable.

I play mostly in BGs and haven't noticed any problems landing the channel. Once cast, the channel seems to follow the target as long as you don't interfere.

By that logic DPS of supprise attack either doesnt exist if we assume it have 0 second cast time or it goes into infinity if we assume it's close to zero but never reaches it. That is why DPS stands for damage per second not damage per part of second.

MurderMostFoul

On my dw/SnB stamden, it was either flurry or dive for my front bar spammable. In BGs, flurry did seem to perform better. I still feel like the skill could use a little PvP love though.

Waffennacht

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

On my dw/SnB stamden, it was either flurry or dive for my front bar spammable. In BGs, flurry did seem to perform better. I still feel like the skill could use a little PvP love though.

It's not that it's an absolutely horrid skill.

It's just not worth slotting over many abilities that don't make you feel like it should be buffed.

Cernunnos55

(With Cruel Flurry)

Buffs > LA > Bloodthirst > LA > Blood Craze > LA > Bloodthirst > LA > Consuming Trap > LA > Bloodthirst > LA > Poison Inject > LA > Whirling Blades weave. Include heals as needed.

Not ideal or META, but works for me pretty well (StamSorc, Deadly/Sheer Venom/Valkyn).

Davadin

the only problem with this skill in Cyrodiil is that not all hit registers and u can't weave with it; damage only comes when the hit is registered.

so effectively and realistically speaking, ur "locked" into the full animation with risk of missing one or a couple hits.

sure it works for some people, but a lot of times playing against veteran players that can get away and/or break LOS, Flurry is worthless - or AT LEAST not worth slotting compared to other.

my DW bar is my DoT bar so with Master DW, Flurry has no space. spammable on the other bar.


solution: cut animation in half, buff damage by ~10-20% (so overall it's a 30~40% damage nerf but twice as fast)

Vlad9425

Its a pretty good skill for duelling but it doesnt do very well when you're fighting multiple enemies. Whether that means it needs a buff or not idk but honestly it feels like it's fairly balanced atm.

iRaivyne

Juhasow wrote: »

By that logic DPS of supprise attack either doesnt exist if we assume it have 0 second cast time or it goes into infinity if we assume it's close to zero but never reaches it. That is why DPS stands for damage per second not damage per part of second.

I know what DPS stands for. All I did was say rapid strikes does more DPS than dizzy over a given time period. DPS is just one aspect of the two skills, not the end all, be all, decision maker. Dizzy still hits hard, doesn't lock you into a channel time, and has more utility. I never said otherwise.